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Old 2007-10-12, 08:26   Link #441
Mr Hat and Clogs
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hmm, just finished book nine.. interesting read, wont spoil any of the story. I don't know if it was a translation thing but it was an odd set up to read, chapter 2 and part of 3 was broken into (slightly confusing at first) sections, alpha 1 -> 6 and beta 1 -> 6. Anyway people who read it will see it no doubt. Still was a decent read, can't wait for book ten.
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Old 2007-10-14, 23:02   Link #442
Sol Falling
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I'm in the middle of rereading the novels for the third time, and I took a break halfway through volume 6 to rewatch the anime for the sixth time, and I noticed something.

Does anybody else remember? Episode 13 (achronological), where Haruhi starts talking about "realizing the insignificance of your existance". Apparently this happened in grade 6, coincidentally three years ago (well a bit more actually, assuming they've just started high school in grade 10).

On the issue of Kyonism. Presuming that what we've been told in Volume 9 beta is true, god/whatever powers were originally held by Sasaki, and then somehow transferred over to Haruhi. The proposal is that Kyon is a 'key' or 'focus lens' which awakens these powers within "weird girls" in a non-arbitrary manner. By non-arbitrary I mean he needs to be at least aware of or in proximity to other candidates for the power to be transferred.

However, a contradiction lies within. We can assume with a fair amount of certainty that past!Kyon, as in the 6th grade Kyon who was friends with Sasaki, never interacts with past!Haruhi. Furthermore, we can also assume that the Data Explosion, Time Quake, and Esper Awakening which Nagato, Mikuru, and Koizumi mention correspond with the awakening of Haruhi's power. Specifically, the fact that the time quake had the effect of limiting any travel before that point in time means that present!Kyon cannot interact with pre-god/whatever Haruhi, logically a prerequisite for transferring that power.

So here's my speculation. The trigger for Haruhi's awakening, rather than being related to Kyon, was a direct result of her personal revelation of insignificance. As for Sasaki's connection to that power, well, we only learn of the anti-SOS Brigade in the Beta half of volume 9, correct? I think it's been established that Alpha and Beta are seperate, parallel dimensions. So (I'm basically ripping off some of the earlier theories in this thread) maybe Beta exists as a consequence of something in Alpha, and in Alpha Sasaki never possessed any kind of power at all. In any case we still have reason to be sceptical about the claim that Sasaki is or was a god-like being like Haruhi.

So yeah, basically I'm throwing my hat in with the Kyon-is-a-normal-guyists, as well as suggesting that there was probably some significance to the speech Haruhi made a day before she decided to reset the world.
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Old 2007-10-15, 20:15   Link #443
KeitaroNagato
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Smile Kyon is Kyon, Haruhi is Haruhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeitaroNagato View Post
Thanks X207, I had to re-read the first the ALPHA parts, then the BETA parts last. I have a wierd feeling that, in the BETA 4 chapter when Tachibana Kyoko said:

"We firmly believe the powers Suzumiya-san are holding onto now
originally belonged to Sasaki-san. However there must be a mistake
somewhere that caused it to transfer to another person. And therefore, I hope
to change things back to how it was. In that case, the world will definitely
move in a much better direction."

How can the powers be suddenly transfer to Haruhi? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think this timeline is cause by Sasaki, because Kyoko clearly stated that the powers must be transfer back to Sasaki. In that just who has the ability to cause a parallel time line, well we all know Haruhi can create the universe that way she fits it, but there are two persons that comes to mind.... Nagato and Kuyoh. I suspect its Kuyoh for the following reasons:

1. Yuki again got sick again just like in Snowy Mountain Syndrome.
2. Yuki just like haruhi can create, manipulate, and destroy dimensions and matter, but unlike haruhi, Yuki cannot create the universe. Yuki shows that in The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi.
3.Itsuki Koizumi and Yuki acknowledge that The Canopy Domain is behind the incident that happend in Snowy Mountain Syndrome. Therefore, there is only one character that is able to create another timeline that overlaps the real timeline, is Kuyoh.

In conclusion: Kyoko, would be telling/asking/demanding that the powers should transfer back to Sasaki, even it shows that Sasaki has some abilities to read minds, (like Koizumi and Haruhi) but other wise... she is just a normal person. And all those coincidental meetings with Kyon, is not Sasaki doings. I suspect its the Sneering Bastard pullings the strings, The Intrigues of Suzumiya Haruhi (vol 7) Clearly stated Mikuru from eight days in the future, was kidnap by both Sneering Bastard and Kyoko, it clearly shows that they were incognito/following them from afar. Sasaki was not even involved.

Well, I truly believe is Kuyoh. Maybe I'm wrong,I had to re-read volume 1 to 8 again (GOD!!! I love Nagaru Tanigawa's work I could re-read over and over...hahaha ), just in case I miss something.

What do you think? It is Kuyoh...right?


Thank you
Domo Arigato

In the prologue of vol 9, Kyon states this:

Spoiler for Vol 9 - Suzumiya Hruhi:


If that is the case: what if by coincident it's actually Sasaki, the reason I'm thinking it because how the ALPHA and BETA timeline also trigger by two factor:
The meeting with Suzumiya and the SOS Brigade's Member, prior to the creation of the timeline.
After the "call" to kyon.

Even though its POV of kyon, but it just way to coincident that its has to be involved with Sasaki.

Then there is the last Thought.

When Haruhi met Sasaki the first time, she (Sasaki) introduced her self as a "Close Friend", as Koizumi pointed/hinted this may have caused the sudden Close Space to appear more frequently. As this may be also a trigger for the 2 timeline to be created. The reasons are the following:
The second time SOS Brigade met, Sasaki had Kyoko, Kuyoh and Sneering Bastard with her. That may be the pointing gun.
Heres another way to put it.

SOS BRIGADE = SASAKI CREW

Haruhi Suzumiya = Sasaki
Koizumi = Kyoko
Nagato = Kuyoh
Mikuru = Sneering Bastard
Kyon

Each one correspond to each other, if the interpretation is correct... each one are rivals, but not Kyon.
Kyon is the only one that really does not have a rival, in some case he should be in the middle. And this added by the fact that Haruhi as pointed by Koizumi, his overload of "part-time" work he has to do, cause the Haruhi's mental instability. coincidentally started from the first meeting. On the second meeting, it was "what the camel back broke...", causing Haruhi to be annoyed or even just for arguing sake... hurt. As we all know she has deep feelings for Kyon, after all she it the one that chooses him. In some case, if she has got hurt, and not aware of what it may have caused, this new type of emotional imbalance (remember most of her life she was just a lonely kid) may actually caused the timeline to split in 2, one is the real one while the other one is her... lets say the "Hurt" one. In this case it involving Kyon to be in the middle. Perhaps, it like when someone wants you to be understanding about the sensitivity of how someone that most of their lives was actually alone, in an act of "GOD" (well just think of that for a moment ...), deep inside Kyon is there with her (not only in the PAST/PRESENT time frames). In some way it's like Haruhi given Kyon a chance to walk both path and he must discover the reason what is given to him. Such as that old saying... "each road must go somewhere". Haruhi can create multiple timelines, just like when Kyon and her were together in a new dimension, while the other one... Koizumi with the help of the "Organization" able to penetrate on the one haruhi just create, but for a small time. If you think about, as he said the old dimension is still in existance, while the new old is just created, "if Haruhi is merciful... the one old will continue with the new...." VOL 1. In that case, there was 2 dimensions in existances!!! All that by Haruhi powers. What if this Timeline is actually Haruhi as well....?

Too many theories... hahahaha

Enjoy the thoughts

Thank you
Domo arigato
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeitaroNagato View Post
I do believe is some type to hint, here are the reasons:
ALPHA timeline was totally different with the actions of each SOS crew members, I...ummm... had to read both timelines 4 times!!!
The reason is there was something that I couldn't grasp... I felt in the Alpha timeline it connoted to certains interractions of the SOS crew as if in sence they are more closer as family then a group being close friends.

BETA timeline was more unpleasant with the interractions between the crew, especially after class when Suzumiya kept on going out, the interraction between Kyon and Haruhi was less, seems more colder, this was hinted from when kyon was in the SOS class and the following actions occured

Spoiler for Vol 9:


I have this feeling this timeline the interractions between is off, as if something is making their interraction between them off. There is a possibility that Haruhi knows about the meeting between Kyon and Sasaki crew. The reason is that it somewhat seems she is avoiding him, (when he came in the class, and all day she just run around the school), and walking in with Koizumi to the SOS HQ.
Now... remember this timeline imposed mostly on Kyon and the Sasaki Crew.
If you recall, when he came in the room Nagato wasn't there, it didn't really matter at that point; Mikuru and Haruhi and Koizumi where there but the interraction as I felted it was off... way off.

BUT!!!

Something happend during that timeline that made the SOS crew to be more closer as they should be.... give you a hint... THE GAME.

It's was that whiched mirrow the ALPHA timeline, that was the trigger.

Let me give you this concept:

Have you ever heard about Dr. Michio Kaku, Andre Linde or Max Tegmark?

They are all scientists, I like the Linde explication on parallel universe even though all the other scientists are more or less the same.

THE BUBBLE UNIVERSE:
I'll use the wiki version.
Bubble theory posits an infinite number of open multiverses, each with different physical constants.

Counter-intuitively, these universes are farther away than even the farthest universe in our open multiverse.

The formation of our universe from a "bubble" of a multiverse was proposed by Andre Linde. This Bubble universe theory fits well with the widely accepted theory of cosmic inflation. The bubble universe concept involves creation of universes from the quantum foam of a "parent universe." On very small scales, the foam is frothing due to energy fluctuations. These fluctuations may create tiny bubbles and wormholes. If the energy fluctuation is not very large, a tiny bubble universe may form, experience some expansion like an inflating balloon, and then contract and disappear from existence. However, if the energy fluctuation is greater than a particular critical value, a tiny bubble universe forms from the parent universe, experiences long-term expansion, and allows matter and large-scale galactic structures to form.


Think how we stack CDROMS on top of each other, each cd represents a universe, they all have there own unique laws and realities, therefore they are different from each other. But... If one universe is just say "stronger", it will/may cause a "punch through" the other ones. Since at that point in time and space, both universe share the same reality... but a unique one that either one does not apply too. Say A +B =C, A is different from B, and B is different from A. But C is totally different from A and B, cause C is a creation from A and B, but is not as A and B. Get it?

And that was the GAME:

Well that is just my theory. I believe the real timeline or the Stronger one is what causes both timeline to share a similar experience. The question is which timeline?
And what/who caused it? I have a hunch!!! but I will see if it fits in Vol 10.

Enjoy the thoughts

Thank you
DOMO ARIGATO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I'm in the middle of rereading the novels for the third time, and I took a break halfway through volume 6 to rewatch the anime for the sixth time, and I noticed something.

Does anybody else remember? Episode 13 (achronological), where Haruhi starts talking about "realizing the insignificance of your existance". Apparently this happened in grade 6, coincidentally three years ago (well a bit more actually, assuming they've just started high school in grade 10).

On the issue of Kyonism. Presuming that what we've been told in Volume 9 beta is true, god/whatever powers were originally held by Sasaki, and then somehow transferred over to Haruhi. The proposal is that Kyon is a 'key' or 'focus lens' which awakens these powers within "weird girls" in a non-arbitrary manner. By non-arbitrary I mean he needs to be at least aware of or in proximity to other candidates for the power to be transferred.

However, a contradiction lies within. We can assume with a fair amount of certainty that past!Kyon, as in the 6th grade Kyon who was friends with Sasaki, never interacts with past!Haruhi. Furthermore, we can also assume that the Data Explosion, Time Quake, and Esper Awakening which Nagato, Mikuru, and Koizumi mention correspond with the awakening of Haruhi's power. Specifically, the fact that the time quake had the effect of limiting any travel before that point in time means that present!Kyon cannot interact with pre-god/whatever Haruhi, logically a prerequisite for transferring that power.

So here's my speculation. The trigger for Haruhi's awakening, rather than being related to Kyon, was a direct result of her personal revelation of insignificance. As for Sasaki's connection to that power, well, we only learn of the anti-SOS Brigade in the Beta half of volume 9, correct? I think it's been established that Alpha and Beta are seperate, parallel dimensions. So (I'm basically ripping off some of the earlier theories in this thread) maybe Beta exists as a consequence of something in Alpha, and in Alpha Sasaki never possessed any kind of power at all. In any case we still have reason to be sceptical about the claim that Sasaki is or was a god-like being like Haruhi.

So yeah, basically I'm throwing my hat in with the Kyon-is-a-normal-guyists, as well as suggesting that there was probably some significance to the speech Haruhi made a day before she decided to reset the world.

I believe the following may be this:

Kyon is in 2 timeline as everyone else:
One timeline is deals with his relastionship with Haruhi and the SOS crew. Yet, the other one deals with his relationship and/or story with Sasaki. If Kyon was doing this, then he would have known what is going on, after all he is doing both timeline Right? But since there are 2 Kyons and both are not aware on whats is going on what each other, therefore its not Kyon doing it. Awareness is the key, and if it's Kyon doing it, wouldn't you think that Koizumi would have sense that there is something going on? Or even Kyon might have a visit from himself to let him know that something wrong, after all he should have the power to split two different timelines, and why not get a visit from himself....

Listen, I do understand that vol9 is the most abstract story that is dealing with two different pathway. But what is the final pathway? Try to read one timelines all and then the other one separately, there is one scenario that is similar to each other, and that is the pivotal part of both. At that point, each timelines goes dramatically discreetly opposite from one another.

Remember: Kyon is Kyon, just a cool dude. 100% human.

Haruhi may be a "God", in fact is she did created the universe three years ago is a fact from Koizumi. Data for auto-evolution created out of nothing is a fact from Nagato. A time disturbance that seems to engulf the whole universe, that no one can travel farther back in the past, as if Time and Space just started, a fact by Mikuru. They all gather together by the wished of Haruhi.

The fact is Kyon had the courage to be friendly with her in class, remember most of her middle school life until high school she was the "outcast". Don't you think deep inside of her, she already accepted that she is in love with him? Remember on the Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi? Read what she did with him.

It takes courage to actually love someone, love is a universal language that transcend above any obstacle, it has its own essence, purpose, and life. Maybe Haruhi picked Kyon for the same reasons and more.

Thank you

Domo Arigato

ありがとう
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Old 2007-10-15, 23:15   Link #444
Sol Falling
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mm, I did read the whole thread before posting, thanks, so I'd already seen your earlier posts :P. I am also aware of the two-dimension nature of volume 9, which is what lead to the main point I made above: We can safely believe that Sasaki possessed powers or can possess powers similar to Haruhi's in the Beta dimension, but we have no evidence that this is true in the Alpha dimension.

Anyway, someone also mentioned the ontology thread in here so I went and read it. Doing so, I've come upon another theory, this time about the nature of Mikuru's time travel. That thread is over a year old though so I'll just post my theory here.

From Mikuru's explanation in the anime and volume 1 of the novels, we learn that Time is not continuous, rather being composed of discrete "planes". From volume 7 of the novels (I think; it might be earlier or later) we learn that the device Mikuru uses to time-travel is called the TPDD, which stands for "Time Plane Destruction Device". Also remember how, just after Kyon first met future Asahina-san, Yuki described the time travellers' method of time-travelling as primitive and imperfect in that it "left a wake". Considering these clues together, I'm surprised somebody hasn't put two and two together earlier: time-travelling in the Haruhi-verse is practically spelt out for us.

We can obviously infer from the name of the TPDD that destruction of time planes occurs; actually, that's the entire mode of travel. Basically, the TPDD would in essence erase all the time planes between the point in time where it exists and an intended destination. The two time planes would then be right next to each other, allowing a time traveller to simply step from one to another. However, seeing as time is discontinuous, the originating time plane would still exist as well. The missing time planes would be the "wake" or disruption Yuki mentions.

5. Since the originating time plane (the one in the future) continues to exist, no time paradoxes occur where altering the past changes the future. However, those destroyed time planes probably require some method of regeneration. I'm thinking that as time progresses from the point the time travellor arrived at (assuming they are travelling to the past), it generates new time planes based on the state of the destination time plane. In this case, eventually those time planes would advance enough to reach the original plane the time travellor came from, at which point the original plane would be overwritten. The only way to prevent overwriting would be to make sure that all the previous time planes correspond with the necessary history to generate precisely the original time plane.

Time travel to the future would occur in essentially the same way, except that the time-traveller would then be waiting for the time planes to catch up to their time.

The only issue I'm not quite certain on is the rate of the regeneration of time planes. It can't be instantaneous, because that delay is necessary for the prevention of Time paradoxes. The idea that makes the most sense is that time progresses at an identical rate for both the origin and destination time planes, which would essentially mean that one would have to wait exactly the amount of time travelled to the past for overwriting to occur. This has several implications, though:

For one, this would imply that one can't travel back in time to a point later than they have already travelled to, because the time plane at that point wouldn't exist yet. This isn't a big deal, though, 'cause the time travellors could simply wait until enough regeneration has occured for that point to exist. For example, if one travelled back in time to January 1st from June 1st and then returned, one would not be able to return to January 7th until June 7th. Comparing to the time-travel instances in the novels, I think this fits, but this post is getting too long as it is so I won't bother comparing.

The second issue is what I'm not sure about. The thing is, if both the origin and destination time planes advance at the same rate, then theoretically a time travellor in the future never has to worry about the plane they are currently in being overwritten. Because they are always moving forward as well, although their past self might be overwritten by an alternate timeline, that is completely irrelevent to the current self. I am also wondering how this scenario could create the need for time travellers to go to the past in the first place, unless they are somehow waging a time war with some other time travellers (which I guess they are, but it's too complicated for me to think of right now. Actually, maybe Fujiwara's faction of time travellers don't even use the same method, and thus have different rules).

Anyway, I'll shut up now with a final bit of speculation about the nature of Haruhi's "time quake". A plausible obstacle for preventing travel past a point in the past would be lack of any time planes to arrive at. Thus arise some possibilities: one, Haruhi destroyed every time plane before the time of her awakening, so that there is no "first plane" for new past time planes to regenerate from; two, Haruhi destroyed a huge chunk of time planes directly before her awakening, so that it would take (presumably) millions of years for time to regenerate to that point; or three, Haruhi shifted the linear progession of time planes laterally, which has the same affect as one except that there exists an alternate timeline parallel to the one everybody is in. Two and three would be the options most congruent with the description "time quake".

Edit:

Damn I'm wordy. Well, I just realized something else, so this post is about to get even longer

Starting at paragraph 5 above, I make the assuption that each time plane has a "locus" of sorts that represents it's proper place in time. This provided a buffer of empty "time loci" protecting the origin time plane. I assumed that this was necessary to prevent time paradoxes. Actually, though, it isn't, because the history of the origin time plane is protected since it's also advancing in time and generating new time planes itself. So in effect, after travelling to the past a timeline would look like this (where + indicates that that time plane is generating or overwriting new planes):

2005-2006-2007+5289+

This diagram shows 2007 about to overwrite 5289 with 2008, but the existance of 5289's reality will be safe because it is just about to generate 5290 anyway.

In this case, travelling to the future would merely be stepping from the past time plane to the one directly in front of it, without involving any time plane destruction at all. This also means that it becomes impossible for one to return to the origin point of time in the future; once one returns to the future, an equal amount of time would have passed as the time spent in the past.

So basically, this edit contradicts the stuff in paragraphs 6 and 7 and invalidates explanation number two of Haruhi's time quake, while paragraphs 8 and 9 are still basically valid. I guess there's an assumption in this theory too, though, in that I'm assuming that the overwriting/generation rate of time planes at both the destination and origin points in time are the same. Still a better assumption than loci, though.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2007-10-15 at 23:48. Reason: new ideas, avoid double-posting
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Old 2007-10-16, 09:28   Link #445
PastPrime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
mm, I did read the whole thread before posting, thanks, so I'd already seen your earlier posts :P. I am also aware of the two-dimension nature of volume 9, which is what lead to the main point I made above: We can safely believe that Sasaki possessed powers or can possess powers similar to Haruhi's in the Beta dimension, but we have no evidence that this is true in the Alpha dimension.
Since the alternate SOS Dan exists in both alpha and beta timelines it would be logical to assume that the other ESPer thinks that Saski has god powers in both timelines. I really think that she is the only one who does. The interface and time traveler joined because it helps their cause.

I think that they both have power, or represent opposite sides of the same power. Haruhi is caos and Sasaki is order. And Kyon bridges the gap between them.
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Old 2007-10-16, 12:01   Link #446
KeitaroNagato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
Since the alternate SOS Dan exists in both alpha and beta timelines it would be logical to assume that the other ESPer thinks that Saski has god powers in both timelines. I really think that she is the only one who does. The interface and time traveler joined because it helps their cause.

I think that they both have power, or represent opposite sides of the same power. Haruhi is caos and Sasaki is order. And Kyon bridges the gap between them.
I love your statement, and I agree 100%.

Somehow Kyon is the bridge between the ALPHA and BETA statement. I believe that is a choice that Kyon must make, before one of the timelines dominates the continue Time Phase. As previously stated, this may be the cause either by either Sasaki and/or Haruhi.... would it be fun that it was both Nagato causing one timeline while Kuyoh is causing the other.
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Old 2007-10-16, 12:41   Link #447
KeitaroNagato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
mm, I did read the whole thread before posting, thanks, so I'd already seen your earlier posts :P. I am also aware of the two-dimension nature of volume 9, which is what lead to the main point I made above: We can safely believe that Sasaki possessed powers or can possess powers similar to Haruhi's in the Beta dimension, but we have no evidence that this is true in the Alpha dimension.

Anyway, someone also mentioned the ontology thread in here so I went and read it. Doing so, I've come upon another theory, this time about the nature of Mikuru's time travel. That thread is over a year old though so I'll just post my theory here.

From Mikuru's explanation in the anime and volume 1 of the novels, we learn that Time is not continuous, rather being composed of discrete "planes". From volume 7 of the novels (I think; it might be earlier or later) we learn that the device Mikuru uses to time-travel is called the TPDD, which stands for "Time Plane Destruction Device". Also remember how, just after Kyon first met future Asahina-san, Yuki described the time travellers' method of time-travelling as primitive and imperfect in that it "left a wake". Considering these clues together, I'm surprised somebody hasn't put two and two together earlier: time-travelling in the Haruhi-verse is practically spelt out for us.

We can obviously infer from the name of the TPDD that destruction of time planes occurs; actually, that's the entire mode of travel. Basically, the TPDD would in essence erase all the time planes between the point in time where it exists and an intended destination. The two time planes would then be right next to each other, allowing a time traveller to simply step from one to another. However, seeing as time is discontinuous, the originating time plane would still exist as well. The missing time planes would be the "wake" or disruption Yuki mentions.

5. Since the originating time plane (the one in the future) continues to exist, no time paradoxes occur where altering the past changes the future. However, those destroyed time planes probably require some method of regeneration. I'm thinking that as time progresses from the point the time travellor arrived at (assuming they are travelling to the past), it generates new time planes based on the state of the destination time plane. In this case, eventually those time planes would advance enough to reach the original plane the time travellor came from, at which point the original plane would be overwritten. The only way to prevent overwriting would be to make sure that all the previous time planes correspond with the necessary history to generate precisely the original time plane.

Time travel to the future would occur in essentially the same way, except that the time-traveller would then be waiting for the time planes to catch up to their time.

The only issue I'm not quite certain on is the rate of the regeneration of time planes. It can't be instantaneous, because that delay is necessary for the prevention of Time paradoxes. The idea that makes the most sense is that time progresses at an identical rate for both the origin and destination time planes, which would essentially mean that one would have to wait exactly the amount of time travelled to the past for overwriting to occur. This has several implications, though:

For one, this would imply that one can't travel back in time to a point later than they have already travelled to, because the time plane at that point wouldn't exist yet. This isn't a big deal, though, 'cause the time travellors could simply wait until enough regeneration has occured for that point to exist. For example, if one travelled back in time to January 1st from June 1st and then returned, one would not be able to return to January 7th until June 7th. Comparing to the time-travel instances in the novels, I think this fits, but this post is getting too long as it is so I won't bother comparing.

The second issue is what I'm not sure about. The thing is, if both the origin and destination time planes advance at the same rate, then theoretically a time travellor in the future never has to worry about the plane they are currently in being overwritten. Because they are always moving forward as well, although their past self might be overwritten by an alternate timeline, that is completely irrelevent to the current self. I am also wondering how this scenario could create the need for time travellers to go to the past in the first place, unless they are somehow waging a time war with some other time travellers (which I guess they are, but it's too complicated for me to think of right now. Actually, maybe Fujiwara's faction of time travellers don't even use the same method, and thus have different rules).

Anyway, I'll shut up now with a final bit of speculation about the nature of Haruhi's "time quake". A plausible obstacle for preventing travel past a point in the past would be lack of any time planes to arrive at. Thus arise some possibilities: one, Haruhi destroyed every time plane before the time of her awakening, so that there is no "first plane" for new past time planes to regenerate from; two, Haruhi destroyed a huge chunk of time planes directly before her awakening, so that it would take (presumably) millions of years for time to regenerate to that point; or three, Haruhi shifted the linear progession of time planes laterally, which has the same affect as one except that there exists an alternate timeline parallel to the one everybody is in. Two and three would be the options most congruent with the description "time quake".

Edit:

Damn I'm wordy. Well, I just realized something else, so this post is about to get even longer

Starting at paragraph 5 above, I make the assuption that each time plane has a "locus" of sorts that represents it's proper place in time. This provided a buffer of empty "time loci" protecting the origin time plane. I assumed that this was necessary to prevent time paradoxes. Actually, though, it isn't, because the history of the origin time plane is protected since it's also advancing in time and generating new time planes itself. So in effect, after travelling to the past a timeline would look like this (where + indicates that that time plane is generating or overwriting new planes):

2005-2006-2007+5289+

This diagram shows 2007 about to overwrite 5289 with 2008, but the existance of 5289's reality will be safe because it is just about to generate 5290 anyway.

In this case, travelling to the future would merely be stepping from the past time plane to the one directly in front of it, without involving any time plane destruction at all. This also means that it becomes impossible for one to return to the origin point of time in the future; once one returns to the future, an equal amount of time would have passed as the time spent in the past.

So basically, this edit contradicts the stuff in paragraphs 6 and 7 and invalidates explanation number two of Haruhi's time quake, while paragraphs 8 and 9 are still basically valid. I guess there's an assumption in this theory too, though, in that I'm assuming that the overwriting/generation rate of time planes at both the destination and origin points in time are the same. Still a better assumption than loci, though.
There is a possibility that 2 time phases were split into to continues timelines. I not ruling out the TDPP may have caused both existances, but it seems possible culprit when Kyon traveled back in time to fix the current reality.

If time phases separates from an original focus point, both timelines exists with their own possibilities, while the original focus point is still in existence. It like a single road suddenly separates onto 2 different path. At the point of being separated, the diver can make their own decision on which road to take.

If we use the TDPP as the cause, then it would be at the time when Kyon traveled at that point to repair the current reality.

Just a theory
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Old 2007-10-16, 14:22   Link #448
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Who knows maybe the author will land a bomb on us with a gamma timeline.
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Old 2007-10-16, 19:33   Link #449
KeitaroNagato
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Who knows maybe the author will land a bomb on us with a gamma timeline.
Hahahahaha!!!!

Perhaps, it was Koizumi doing. Maybe he is the culprit. He just needed Kyon to be occupy hahahaha

Seriously, there are so many possibilities of who, why and what. I do agree with <Sol Falling> statement on the Time Phase theory.
There are many other theories on vol9, I cannot wait to see how it's covey finally in vol10.

I've read so many possibilities, they all have great points in the how, but not the who(s) or the why(s), which can be anyone.

Just say for argument sake, Kyon by meeting Sasaki has caused the ripped in the Time Phases or the two timelines. It's possible, because of his previous relationship with Sasaki, and his current relationship with Haruhi got his own "idea", how each interactions would be. I don't remember where I read the statement from but in some cases. Sasaki represent the opposite of what Haruhi is. Maybe, Kyon by his own reflection of who he was in the past and who he is now may has somehow "ripped" the Timelines. mmmmm? This is for all you Kyonist out there

But as anyone knows, there is so many theories, facts that points out to any possibilities.

Thank you
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ありがとう
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Old 2007-10-17, 19:08   Link #450
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We can assume with a fair amount of certainty that past!Kyon, as in the 6th grade Kyon who was friends with Sasaki, never interacts with past!Haruhi.
According to -5, Kyon's first meeting with Sasaki was in 3rd year middle school, that is 9th grade. So that's 2 years after Haruhi got her powers.
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Old 2007-10-17, 20:22   Link #451
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According to -5, Kyon's first meeting with Sasaki was in 3rd year middle school, that is 9th grade. So that's 2 years after Haruhi got her powers.
That's true, the universe change 3 years ago, he met Sasaki on his last year of middle school before going to Senior school. Now I understand whose who....

Lets hope it plays out in vol10

Yeah!!! Cheers!!! Compai!!!!

Thank you
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Old 2007-10-17, 20:49   Link #452
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With volume 10 being called "The Astonishment of Suzumiya Haruhi", it sounds very much like they are going to tell her the truth in at least one of the timelines. I wonder if we are getting close to the end of the series.
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Old 2007-10-17, 21:37   Link #453
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According to -5, Kyon's first meeting with Sasaki was in 3rd year middle school, that is 9th grade. So that's 2 years after Haruhi got her powers.
But Kyon actually met Haruhi before he met Sasaki. At least from Haruhi's perspective.
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Old 2007-10-18, 14:24   Link #454
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With volume 10 being called "The Astonishment of Suzumiya Haruhi", it sounds very much like they are going to tell her the truth in at least one of the timelines. I wonder if we are getting close to the end of the series.
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But Kyon actually met Haruhi before he met Sasaki. At least from Haruhi's perspective.
Hopefully , it will not end there, there is so many directions where the story could go. But being as great as it is now, I don't believe it with end. It's way too popular and the phenomenon is greatly increasing around the world. For god sake!!! There are people doing the Haruhi Dance in their own weddings

On Haruhi perpective, yes but she does not know its Kyon at the time (John Smith anyone ). POV by Kyon he just met her on this reality as well as in the past on the same age as he is now. In his own POV, he remember meeting Sasaki 2 years ago, but meeting Haruhi 3 years ago, does not count because he did not meet her 3 years younger. Meeting Sasaki when he was younger, and Haruhi when he grew older.

Thank you
Domo arigato

if other wise, let me know. I just love all the inputs on this volume.
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Old 2007-10-18, 23:43   Link #455
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Originally Posted by KeitaroNagato View Post
On Haruhi perpective, yes but she does not know its Kyon at the time (John Smith anyone ). POV by Kyon he just met her on this reality as well as in the past on the same age as he is now. In his own POV, he remember meeting Sasaki 2 years ago, but meeting Haruhi 3 years ago, does not count because he did not meet her 3 years younger. Meeting Sasaki when he was younger, and Haruhi when he grew older.
The idea is that, if Kyon is some kind of focusing lens for omnipotence, then it would have activated Haruhi first seeing as he met Haruhi earlier in the timeline.

In fact, if this is the case (not sure if it is right now), maybe Kyon awakened Haruhi's powers four years ago, transferred them to Sasaki when he met her, and then back to Haruhi when he met her in North High.
It's just rampant speculation, and I'm not even sure I believe, so take it as you will.
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Old 2007-10-19, 00:32   Link #456
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hey im gonna ask this super noob qns...

whr to buy chinese version of the manga/novel in sg?
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Old 2007-10-19, 09:38   Link #457
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Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
The idea is that, if Kyon is some kind of focusing lens for omnipotence, then it would have activated Haruhi first seeing as he met Haruhi earlier in the timeline.

In fact, if this is the case (not sure if it is right now), maybe Kyon awakened Haruhi's powers four years ago, transferred them to Sasaki when he met her, and then back to Haruhi when he met her in North High.
It's just rampant speculation, and I'm not even sure I believe, so take it as you will.
It was my understanding that she created the time blockage with her powers and no one could travel past it. Since they traveled to shortly before Kyon met Haruhi it means that she already had her powers when he helped her. And, she would not have been able to design the alien symbol if she did not have powers and she did that before she met him.
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Old 2007-10-19, 12:53   Link #458
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Ooh, good point. Scratch that theory.
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Old 2007-10-20, 16:06   Link #459
KeitaroNagato
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Quote:
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It was my understanding that she created the time blockage with her powers and no one could travel past it. Since they traveled to shortly before Kyon met Haruhi it means that she already had her powers when he helped her. And, she would not have been able to design the alien symbol if she did not have powers and she did that before she met him.
That's right, I didn't thought of that, I was under the impression that Kyon met Haruhi when he was older, while Sasaki when he was younger.

Come to think of it, when Haruhi realized about how insignificant the world is after she when to the baseball stadium, that is when the world became different from her perspective. In sense, that when she recreated the "universe" as she see it.

Cool, <PastPrime>. Now I see how this is going. The truth is Haruhi had her powers during that time when Kyon met with her. Now as an adult, don't you think that everything is now going her way...?
Well if she made the universe, would it be that SOS Brigade vs Sasaki Crew is something she created out of her "boredom". Maybe Sasaki even though she is Kyon old friend, by seeing Sasaki with Kyon.... Haruhi kinda created her (Sasaki) as a threat - an equal opponent, an enemy ...that may take Kyon.... in sense by accident... that is why the 2 timelines are overlapping each other?

In other words, if she created the universe, by seeing Kyon and Sasaki together, mistakenly created her (Sasaki) as an equal opposite of her, because if this the timeline splits due to her emotional reaction. One having her as the main focus on Kyon's life, while the other is Sasaki as the main focus of Kyon's life.

Thank you
Domo arigato
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Old 2007-10-20, 20:54   Link #460
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Originally Posted by KeitaroNagato View Post
In other words, if she created the universe, by seeing Kyon and Sasaki together, mistakenly created her (Sasaki) as an equal opposite of her, because if this the timeline splits due to her emotional reaction. One having her as the main focus on Kyon's life, while the other is Sasaki as the main focus of Kyon's life.

Thank you
Domo arigato
On that thought, what if when Haruhi came into her power, she somehow split herself into two people? (and inadvertently created two overlapping timelines which is what is preventing the time travelers from traveling further into the past)

Just a thought I had...

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