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Old 2008-06-22, 03:44   Link #1261
cicero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Did you read Vol. 7?

It's a predestination paradox, or a casual loop or sorts.

Kyon remembers hearing his own voice (as well as the voices of Yuki and Mikuru) at the point where he passes out, therefore he knows that he has to go back in time to save himself, and bring Yuki and Mikuru with him.

In the prologue of Vol. 7, he does just that, closing the loop.

It's a bit confusing, but it's not a universe-shattering paradox.
See, the issue I have with using Occam's razor here is two-fold. In this case, we have an examples of alternate timelines in vol. 9, which makes positing alternate timelines much less of a leap than it would otherwise be. The fact that they will likely be destroyed doesn't remove that they have opened the door to the existence of alternate timelines. There's also the morass of vol. 4, but as I myself can see (and prefer) an explanation that doesn't involve alternate timelines, I won't use it.
The other half of this is that causal loops are decidedly not the simplest explanations for things, and yet we have at least three of those, if one counts carefully..
My point is that in the haruhiverse, an explanation involving alternate timelines and causal loops isn't actually as big a leap as, for example, using a similar theory to explain why my clock runs fast in our world, because we know that such things actually exist.
Occam's razor favors the simplest explanation which fits the evidence. Your theory seems to suggest the existence of a time travel group actively seeking to destroy/replace their own timeline, and everyone within it. Yes, crazy people/groups exist, but it makes it that much more unlikely.

It's not just a matter of saying "Occam's Razor" and making it go away; I just don't think it's that clear.
(I think we can all agree, however, that the current known goals of various groups range from morally ambiguous to good. While Kuyoh and Fujiwara seem to ooze evil, at least in Kyon's eyes, we don't know what they want, so they may not necessarily be evil (Kyon is biased); it's just that the goals of the sos-dan members, assuming we know the truth about them, are known to be innocuous, so we question them less).
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Old 2008-06-22, 03:47   Link #1262
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I think you may have quoted the wrong post
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2008-06-22, 07:56   Link #1263
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Interesting idea, but, because of the way time travel works, they would already have interfered, from their perspective.

They have no choice but to cause the war. They cannot choose, because the future has already happened.
This is one of the more confusing aspects of time travel.

Why would you create a time travel agency to ensure the future happens, when you understand perfectly well that history can't be changed?

Bossman:so...you want me to give you a hundred billion megacreds a year, to create a time traveling organization to ensure that things that have already happened, will always happen, and cannot be kept from happening, happen?
Mook:Yep
Bossman: NO
Mook: Aw...


...Of course, A time travel is fundamentally a weird concept. You basically have events happening...because they happen. It seems to take the concept of cause and effect, and beat it bluntly on the head to death. You have a never ending loop of events, that seem to have started for no logical reason.

It might seem somewhat consistent when you're speaking about actions, but there are certain similiar time travel stories working on the same principal of "It happened because it happened".

The story "All you zombies" by Robert Heinlen, features a character that has sex with himself, impregnates himself, and then gives birth to himself (Intersexual with working male/female parts). The basics for the causation at first hand seems to be explainable by the standard time travel "It happened because it happened", but a more fundemental problem comes into being when you think of the lineage more carefully.

What is it's lineage? This individual has no blood relation with the rest of the human race. It has no plausible relation to any human ancestor, all the way down to the vertebrates that first crawled out of the sea. Logically speaking, this thing shouldn't even exist. It's almost as if the universe itself hiccuped, and out spawned this individual stuck in a time loop.

While seemingly unrelated to destiny time travel stories, it is still fundamentally related. where as in All you zombies, the major visible paradox is within the biology, it can still be applied to actions and causation. The actions or events of absolute time travel seem to have be stuck in a loop that has no apparent start (Which doesn't have allot of meaning, seeing how you've bypassed the 4th dimension).
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Old 2008-06-22, 08:40   Link #1264
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Thank you for bringing up All You Zombies. While you most likely had no intention of doing so, you've mentioned another ontological paradox(and one of the more complex ones at that).
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2008-06-22, 12:17   Link #1265
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
I'm not referring to the predestination paradox of him knowing he has to go back and do it, I'm referring to the ontological paradox of him only living because he will eventually go back and do it. You seem to have missed that point.
It's still consistent, though. Which is what matters. In other words, he already saved himself.

As long as the past wasn't changed, we don't have a universe-shattering paradox.

...I really don't see what your problem is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cicero View Post
See, the issue I have with using Occam's razor here is two-fold. In this case, we have an examples of alternate timelines in vol. 9, which makes positing alternate timelines much less of a leap than it would otherwise be. The fact that they will likely be destroyed doesn't remove that they have opened the door to the existence of alternate timelines. There's also the morass of vol. 4, but as I myself can see (and prefer) an explanation that doesn't involve alternate timelines, I won't use it.
The other half of this is that causal loops are decidedly not the simplest explanations for things, and yet we have at least three of those, if one counts carefully...
We don't know HOW the alternate timeline in Vol. 9 was created though. It could be unique, for all we know.

My point in bringing up the possibility that one could be destroyed was to point out that, were that to occur, the time travelers would never have existed and thus could never have traveled back in time.

So Fujiwara probably isn't from an alternate timeline. We have no evidence to suggest this. Which is why I invoked the Razor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
...Of course, A time travel is fundamentally a weird concept. You basically have events happening...because they happen. It seems to take the concept of cause and effect, and beat it bluntly on the head to death. You have a never ending loop of events, that seem to have started for no logical reason.

It might seem somewhat consistent when you're speaking about actions, but there are certain similiar time travel stories working on the same principal of "It happened because it happened".
One of the more interesting concepts, to me, is the implications for free will.

As for how the Time Agency was created, I imagine someone came from the far future to the future and said "Hey guys, you need to create a time travel agency so our future can exist."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
The story "All you zombies" by Robert Heinlen, features a character that has sex with himself, impregnates himself, and then gives birth to himself (Intersexual with working male/female parts). The basics for the causation at first hand seems to be explainable by the standard time travel "It happened because it happened", but a more fundemental problem comes into being when you think of the lineage more carefully.

What is it's lineage? This individual has no blood relation with the rest of the human race. It has no plausible relation to any human ancestor, all the way down to the vertebrates that first crawled out of the sea. Logically speaking, this thing shouldn't even exist. It's almost as if the universe itself hiccuped, and out spawned this individual stuck in a time loop.

While seemingly unrelated to destiny time travel stories, it is still fundamentally related. where as in All you zombies, the major visible paradox is within the biology, it can still be applied to actions and causation. The actions or events of absolute time travel seem to have be stuck in a loop that has no apparent start (Which doesn't have allot of meaning, seeing how you've bypassed the 4th dimension).
My theory is that the individual actually WAS created from the timestream, as are all objects and information that exist within an ontological paradox.

Why this happens I don't know, but the only logical explanation is that anything involved in an ontological paradox is made from the timestream itself.
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Old 2008-06-22, 13:01   Link #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's still consistent, though. Which is what matters. In other words, he already saved himself.

As long as the past wasn't changed, we don't have a universe-shattering paradox.

...I really don't see what your problem is...
While yes, their actions in the past were a direct cause of their traveling back to actually do it... their actions in the past are what cause them to even exist in the first place. In other words, they came into being out of nowhere. There is absolutely no logical reason for any of them to exist.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2008-06-22, 13:01   Link #1267
cicero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
We don't know HOW the alternate timeline in Vol. 9 was created though. It could be unique, for all we know.

My point in bringing up the possibility that one could be destroyed was to point out that, were that to occur, the time travelers would never have existed and thus could never have traveled back in time.

So Fujiwara probably isn't from an alternate timeline. We have no evidence to suggest this. Which is why I invoked the Razor.
I never said fujiwara's was the vol.9 timeline. I'm saying that one exists proves that one can exist in the Haruhiverse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
One of the more interesting concepts, to me, is the implications for free will.
I've always felt that Novikov's principle, by implying a predetermined future, nullifies free will. Time travel just makes it obvious. Haruhi, I think, is some sort of counter to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
My theory is that the individual actually WAS created from the timestream, as are all objects and information that exist within an ontological paradox.

Why this happens I don't know, but the only logical explanation is that anything involved in an ontological paradox is made from the timestream itself.
What they're saying is that the information involved seems to appear and disappear. The other point is that the guy could have easily just been a martian...there was nothing forcing him to be human, etc. The timestream only spawning causal loops which appear normal from outside is kind of an ad-hoc rule.
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Old 2008-06-22, 13:07   Link #1268
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
While yes, their actions in the past were a direct cause of their traveling back to actually do it... their actions in the past are what cause them to even exist in the first place. In other words, they came into being out of nowhere. There is absolutely no logical reason for any of them to exist.
Continue to exist. Kyon existed before the event.

Kyon traveled back in time to ensure his own existence and finish the loop, and I still don't see what you find wrong with that other than the normal paradox in such situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cicero View Post
I never said fujiwara's was the vol.9 timeline. I'm saying that one exists proves that one can exist in the Haruhiverse.
Okay.

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Originally Posted by cicero View Post
I've always felt that Novikov's principle, by implying a predetermined future, nullifies free will. Time travel just makes it obvious. Haruhi, I think, is some sort of counter to that.
Exactly. Haruhi is the embodiment of free will itself.

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Originally Posted by cicero View Post
What they're saying is that the information involved seems to appear and disappear. The other point is that the guy could have easily just been a martian...there was nothing forcing him to be human, etc. The timestream only spawning causal loops which appear normal from outside is kind of an ad-hoc rule.
Again, I don't see the problem with the paradox. Sure, it makes little sense, but there's no real problem with it as far as the story goes. It makes sense under its own rules.
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Old 2008-06-22, 13:11   Link #1269
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Simply put: "It happened, so it has to happen."



And Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure parodies this nicely...
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Old 2008-06-22, 13:12   Link #1270
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Simply put: "It happened, so it has to happen."



And Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure parodies this nicely...
Thank you...
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Old 2008-06-22, 13:21   Link #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Continue to exist. Kyon existed before the event.
Spoiler for ...:
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2008-06-22, 13:27   Link #1272
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Spoiler for ...:
Spoiler for sigh:
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Old 2008-06-22, 13:34   Link #1273
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Except that there was no point in the future for them to travel back from if... forget it. This just isn't worth it. I've already done what you asked and provided a paradox that is neither a predestination paradox nor a time loop(as I've stated, it's an ontological paradox), despite its existence being intertwined with one of each.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2008-06-22, 14:00   Link #1274
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"There are always possiblities"...

Spoiler for Oh Boy...:
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Old 2008-06-22, 19:18   Link #1275
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
One of the more interesting concepts, to me, is the implications for free will.

As for how the Time Agency was created, I imagine someone came from the far future to the future and said "Hey guys, you need to create a time travel agency so our future can exist."
This is my point. It doesn't follow a logical chain of cause and effect. It just happens. It appears as if nothing could have logically started these continual events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
My theory is that the individual actually WAS created from the timestream, as are all objects and information that exist within an ontological paradox.

Why this happens I don't know, but the only logical explanation is that anything involved in an ontological paradox is made from the timestream itself.
The level of detail in an ontological paradox is often to intricate to be created by chance. There's some kind of sentience at work. First rational thing to assume when you run into a time paradox, is to assume that higher beings are at work, and they're laughing at you.

...this is actually a pretty good arguement for Koizumi's theory that Time Travelers and the IDE only came into existence because of Haruhi.
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
While yes, their actions in the past were a direct cause of their traveling back to actually do it... their actions in the past are what cause them to even exist in the first place. In other words, they came into being out of nowhere. There is absolutely no logical reason for any of them to exist.
Meaning there must be reason not bound by logic.

Given this particular universe, that actually explains allot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicero View Post
What they're saying is that the information involved seems to appear and disappear. The other point is that the guy could have easily just been a martian...there was nothing forcing him to be human, etc. The timestream only spawning causal loops which appear normal from outside is kind of an ad-hoc rule.
Or a rule that beings with power far beyond our imaginations are running the show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Continue to exist. Kyon existed before the event.
Kyon traveled back in time to ensure his own existence and finish the loop, and I still don't see what you find wrong with that other than the normal paradox in such situations.
Yes, but the series of events that forced kyon into his set of actions came out of nowhere. They have no discernible origin using any sort of coherant logic. It's really the same thing minus All you zombies, only slightly less extreme.

The events that set the ball rolling for the time travel come out of nowhere, but are very deliberately crafted.


Lets look at this scenario to elaborate how truly confusing getting a paradox started is...

2 mortal enemies are fighting each other on a deserted island over a time machine. They are evenly matched. One of them suddenly realizes that he can win, if his future selves use their newly acquired time machine periodically go back in time (once every year for the next 6-8 years) to reinforce their past self in his hour of need, and secure the time machine for themselves.

Of course this requires him to actually survive the encounter...witch is also guaranteed by his future reinforcements. However, the same arguement could be used that the other guy could use his temporal clones to ensure his victory.

In short, this scenario cannot proceed logically this way. The continuity gets screwy as to who would actually win this in this kind of scenario. The only way you can get even a somewhat rational explanation, would be for some higher power not bound by the 4th dimension (or logic for that matter...) to covertly interfere with events.
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Old 2008-06-22, 21:07   Link #1276
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Except that there was no point in the future for them to travel back from if... forget it. This just isn't worth it. I've already done what you asked and provided a paradox that is neither a predestination paradox nor a time loop(as I've stated, it's an ontological paradox), despite its existence being intertwined with one of each.
But there is a future from them to travel back from. By saving himself, Kyon assured his own existence and the fact that he could travel back in time.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? The future had already happened.


Also, everyone, please stop discussing time travel. It makes my head hurt and throwing around theories is going nowhere.
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Old 2008-06-22, 21:10   Link #1277
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Pretty much every story that I have seen or read involving Time Travel involves some kind of paradox. Even "The Terminator." Sarah Conner's son is the leader of the human resistance in the future. He sends a friend back to protect his mother from the Terminator knowing that that friend will become his father. Or another story where a Time Traveler came back and was trying to kill everyone who had made Time Travel possible. He had hired guards for a Farmer, which tipped the opposition off to the fact that this farmer was his ancestor. One of them assassinated the farmer, and was killed by the guards, but the Time Traveler vanished at the instant the farmer died, leaving one researcher into Time Travel alive.
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Old 2008-06-22, 22:19   Link #1278
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Remember by someone's principle the possibilities of something happening that would cause a time paradox = o. So whatever they do is meant to happen.
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Old 2008-06-23, 04:32   Link #1279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
Exactly. Haruhi is the embodiment of free will itself.
(shameless credit grab) I wrote the haruhi=free will theory on the baka-tsuki forums. Was I the first one to do so? Because if I was, I can feel good about being original...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWork Angel
Remember by someone's principle the possibilities of something happening that would cause a time paradox = o. So whatever they do is meant to happen.
Novikov's Principle
We were arguing how closely Haruhi follows this a page ago, I think.

One way to think about it is to have a game where there's two boxes, one with a million dollars, and you can choose either box. The catch is that beforehand, the host looks through a time machine and sees which box you pick. He then announces to you which box you will pick, and makes clear the money is in the other box. Try to untangle this in your head.

Novikov's principle, of course, would deny that such a game could even happen. Rather, any attempts to set up such a game will be burned down by fires etc.
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Old 2008-06-23, 07:36   Link #1280
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How exactly does the Novikov theory "prevent" an event from occurring in the past? That's another thing I've always found weird about time travel dealing with paradoxes, is how exactly the universe prevents a paradox from taking place?

There are things that a time traveler could do to prevent the titanic form sinking, or at least change the history of that episode. He could transport of a hundred of his friends all dressed out in futuristic gear on board the titanic, walk up to the captain while exposing himself to the entire crew, and have all his friends sing a musical number about the fate of the Titanic, and when it will happen.

When someone tries to do this, does the universe manifest in the form of Yotsuba, and kick them all in the nades before they can depart to the past?
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