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Old 2008-09-05, 04:25   Link #1441
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And Haruhi never denied emotions, just love, and that seemed more like her way of escaping from her growing feelings about Kyon.
Did she said that too soon on the serie for having alredy some positive feeling toward Kyon?
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Old 2008-09-05, 07:19   Link #1442
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Two problems with your view:

Haruhi no longer thinks of love that way, and I doubt she has thought of it like that since the end of Vol. 1. She just has problems understanding why she'd be in love with Kyon, of all people. In addition, she's slowly treating everyone less like her slaves and more like her friends.
Pretty sure she does at least consciously. She takes Kyon aside during "Charmed", and bassically goes through the whole "Love is a mental sickness, but it's not my business if other people do it".

Of course that to me that came off as "Marry off the competition".
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kyon IS romantically interested in her, but is so obsessed with maintaining the personality he's built for himself that he's unable to admit this to himself. Remember, Kyon used to be almost exactly like Haruhi, if less hyperactive.
I didn't get that impression. While Kyon certainly finds Haruhi likable, I never felt that he had any overt romantic feelings for her. Most of the time he seems to nonchalant for that. Kyon obviously does have strong feelings towards Haruhi, but I don't know if they can be characterized as love at this point.

Best example I can think of was his feelings on Mikuru, Yuki, and Haruhi possibly getting boyfriends.

Yuki:I might have to start stalking that guy...
Mikuru:I AM gonna start stalking that guy!
Haruhi:Wonderful! Maybe she'll calm down now.

While you we can argue this is somewhat hyperbole, it does leave the impression that the feelings are stronger on Haruhi's end than Kyons.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What would have to happen, for an actual relationship between the two, is for Kyon to remove his mental inhibitions, mental inhibitions which Sasaki, though not intentionally, helped create.
Kyon hardly seems to have the same kind of issues with love that Saski and Haruhi seem to hold dear. I mean, his first inclination when he met Haruhi was to hit on her. He seems to have put up his mental "Don't think about Haruhi in romantic context" purely out of response to interacting with her.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It used to come from Haruhi, although we haven't heard that since, hmm, Vol. 1.
She repeats it in CHARMED.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And Haruhi never denied emotions, just love, and that seemed more like her way of escaping from her growing feelings about Kyon.
She did have a fair amount of trouble interacting with people in ways that could be considered cordial until recently (EX:ENOZ).
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Old 2008-09-05, 10:56   Link #1443
ijuinkun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
It seems either way the only people with access to the "power" are the least likely to use it responsibly.
That cuts both ways. Those who SEEK power are also among the least likely to use it responsibly, which is why I am suspicious about Kyoko and Fujiwara.
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Old 2008-09-05, 12:40   Link #1444
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I didn't get that impression. While Kyon certainly finds Haruhi likable, I never felt that he had any overt romantic feelings for her. Most of the time he seems to nonchalant for that. Kyon obviously does have strong feelings towards Haruhi, but I don't know if they can be characterized as love at this point.

Best example I can think of was his feelings on Mikuru, Yuki, and Haruhi possibly getting boyfriends.

Yuki:I might have to start stalking that guy...
Mikuru:I AM gonna start stalking that guy!
Haruhi:Wonderful! Maybe she'll calm down now.

While you we can argue this is somewhat hyperbole, it does leave the impression that the feelings are stronger on Haruhi's end than Kyons.
To me, it seems more like the emotional denability the author seems to love.

Kyon might like to think that way, but how do you think he would react if someone else actually started dating her?

A good example of what I'm talking about would be Vol. 4, which is probably one of the few times his real feelings come to light.

I mean, he was given his perfect world, given his idea of the perfect girlfriend, and the only thing he can think about? Haruhi.

When he sees Koizumi walking home with her, he automatically assumes that he's taken his place...

You get what I'm saying? What Kyon says and what Kyon really thinks are two different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Kyon hardly seems to have the same kind of issues with love that Saski and Haruhi seem to hold dear. I mean, his first inclination when he met Haruhi was to hit on her. He seems to have put up his mental "Don't think about Haruhi in romantic context" purely out of response to interacting with her.
Exactly, but I didn't mean about love, I meant about his belief in the supernatural and his formerly childish behavior.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
She repeats it in CHARMED.
Okay, I'm wrong. Still, I doubt she actually believes it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
She did have a fair amount of trouble interacting with people in ways that could be considered cordial until recently (EX:ENOZ).
That was in November... Vol. 9 is set in April of the next year. Not really "recent" anymore.
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Old 2008-09-05, 14:51   Link #1445
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
That cuts both ways. Those who SEEK power are also among the least likely to use it responsibly, which is why I am suspicious about Kyoko and Fujiwara.
Technically Saski has bluntly stated her disinterest in taking the power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
To me, it seems more like the emotional denability the author seems to love.

Kyon might like to think that way, but how do you think he would react if someone else actually started dating her?

A good example of what I'm talking about would be Vol. 4, which is probably one of the few times his real feelings come to light.

I mean, he was given his perfect world, given his idea of the perfect girlfriend, and the only thing he can think about? Haruhi.

When he sees Koizumi walking home with her, he automatically assumes that he's taken his place...

You get what I'm saying? What Kyon says and what Kyon really thinks are two different things.
I see your point.

With that In mind though, I will say that it seems to be stronger on Haruhi's end than on Kyons.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Exactly, but I didn't mean about love, I meant about his belief in the supernatural and his formerly childish behavior.
It would probably piss Haruhi off if she found out Saski was largely the reason that Kyon stopped holding the same kind of views that she does.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Okay, I'm wrong. Still, I doubt she actually believes it anymore.
Obviously.

I'd personally like to give Saski some benefit of the doubt, considering that her conversation she had with Kyon regarding emotion was a rather lengthy span of time ago. It seems a bit unfair to label her a repressed psychopath.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That was in November... Vol. 9 is set in April of the next year. Not really "recent" anymore.
True. Just trying to point out that Haruhi probably would be a worse person to be holding the power while aware of it than Saski would.

Saski would have to be tempted to do something. Haruhi would do it right off the bat.
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Old 2008-09-05, 16:42   Link #1446
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Technically Saski has bluntly stated her disinterest in taking the power.
It doesn't matter what she says... she'd probably be tempted to abuse them regardless... and we don't know what happens to someone when they obtain the powers anyway. Maybe she'd create the same temporal quake that Haruhi did.

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It would probably piss Haruhi off if she found out Saski was largely the reason that Kyon stopped holding the same kind of views that she does.
That's exactly why I want her to find that out. Plot development GO!

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I'd personally like to give Saski some benefit of the doubt, considering that her conversation she had with Kyon regarding emotion was a rather lengthy span of time ago. It seems a bit unfair to label her a repressed psychopath.
Yeah, but has Sasaki shown any change in her opinions since then?

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
True. Just trying to point out that Haruhi probably would be a worse person to be holding the power while aware of it than Saski would.

Saski would have to be tempted to do something. Haruhi would do it right off the bat.
Hmm, since the only person who can really make Haruhi realize her powers is "John Smith", and the only person Haruhi would listen to without a doubt is said "John Smith", I can't see her becoming that dangerous.

Sasaki has no one like that.
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Old 2008-09-05, 17:23   Link #1447
Miraploy
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I'm a little puzzled by the 'who likes who' situation. The most obvious scenario is Kyon and Haruhi are meant for each other, they're just in denial, etc. But then we have something like Snow Mountain where Mikuru goes into Kyon's room, Kyon into Itsui's, Mikuru into Haruhi's, etc, and then I start getting confused.

But then that might just be Canopy Dominion playing a joke, but I thought we were supposed to read it straight, as in, these are the people they want deep down inside. :P
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Old 2008-09-05, 17:56   Link #1448
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Miraploy View Post
I'm a little puzzled by the 'who likes who' situation. The most obvious scenario is Kyon and Haruhi are meant for each other, they're just in denial, etc. But then we have something like Snow Mountain where Mikuru goes into Kyon's room, Kyon into Itsui's, Mikuru into Haruhi's, etc, and then I start getting confused.

But then that might just be Canopy Dominion playing a joke, but I thought we were supposed to read it straight, as in, these are the people they want deep down inside. :P
Actually, that was Yuki who did that, as I recall. Mostly to form the number "4".
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Old 2008-09-05, 18:12   Link #1449
typhonsentra
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, that was Yuki who did that, as I recall. Mostly to form the number "4".
They kinda leave it up to interpretation. It could be she was trying to make a 4 shape, it could be that the pattern was incidental and she just told them "4" because that's how the shape turned out after everyone said who went to who's room.
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Old 2008-09-05, 18:20   Link #1450
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
They kinda leave it up to interpretation. It could be she was trying to make a 4 shape, it could be that the pattern was incidental and she just told them "4" because that's how the shape turned out after everyone said who went to who's room.
Actually, she was trying to make the number 4. Remember, the puzzle on the door used "4" as its key.
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Old 2008-09-05, 19:20   Link #1451
Ithekro
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Could that be a showing that Yuki has a sense of humor?
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Old 2008-09-05, 19:54   Link #1452
Kaisos Erranon
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Could that be a showing that Yuki has a sense of humor?
She does have a sense of humor. Remember Lone Island?
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Old 2008-09-05, 19:55   Link #1453
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It doesn't matter what she says... she'd probably be tempted to abuse them regardless...
I think anyone would be tempted to abuse power like that somewhat. I think the important thing would be for them not to abuse it in a manner that radically changed the world.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
... and we don't know what happens to someone when they obtain the powers anyway. Maybe she'd create the same temporal quake that Haruhi did.
Worrying about that with our current level of information, is the same as conjecturing that Haruhi will discover her powers on her own. Until we get more solid info, we can't come to a conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That's exactly why I want her to find that out. Plot development GO!
More like cat fight
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yeah, but has Sasaki shown any change in her opinions since then?
Well we haven't seen much of here (What with constantly bouncing between the 2 continuities in volume 9...)
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Hmm, since the only person who can really make Haruhi realize her powers is "John Smith", and the only person Haruhi would listen to without a doubt is said "John Smith", I can't see her becoming that dangerous.

Sasaki has no one like that.
True. It definitely would seem that Kyon would have far more influence over Haruhi if he revealed his identity as John Smith. Though you would hope that Haruhi might have a basic understanding of the implications of what it means for her to be a god if this situation occurred.
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Old 2008-09-05, 19:55   Link #1454
typhonsentra
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, she was trying to make the number 4. Remember, the puzzle on the door used "4" as its key.
What I'm trying to say is that she didn't necessarily have control over the shape of the arrangement, but once everyone stated the direction each person traveled she put together the shape in her head. Remember she didn't say "Yon" until after everyone explained who went to who's room.
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Old 2008-09-05, 20:21   Link #1455
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I think anyone would be tempted to abuse power like that somewhat. I think the important thing would be for them not to abuse it in a manner that radically changed the world.
Thing is, we know what Haruhi would do. We don't know what Sasaki would do.

Better the evil you know than the evil you don't know, right?

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What I'm trying to say is that she didn't necessarily have control over the shape of the arrangement, but once everyone stated the direction each person traveled she put together the shape in her head. Remember she didn't say "Yon" until after everyone explained who went to who's room.
Wait, I'm confused. Didn't Yuki create the math puzzle on the door to give the SOS Brigade a way out? The math puzzle to which "4" was the key?
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Old 2008-09-05, 20:48   Link #1456
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Thing is, we know what Haruhi would do.
Turn the world into a never ending melange of chaotic anime/scifi memes bouncing from one extreme to another as Haruhi try's to keep herself entertained?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
We don't know what Sasaki would do.
I think that allot of normal people would be content to be rich.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Better the evil you know than the evil you don't know, right?
Saski seems more content to let the world be than Haruhi ever would.

So unless there's something insidious going on, it's hard to argue that Haruhi aware of her powers would be less destructive than Saski would be.
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Old 2008-09-05, 20:58   Link #1457
Kaisos Erranon
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I think that allot of normal people would be content to be rich.
You haven't read many A God Am I stories, have you...?

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Saski seems more content to let the world be than Haruhi ever would.

So unless there's something insidious going on, it's hard to argue that Haruhi aware of her powers would be less destructive than Saski would be.
I'd still argue that Sasaki has heavy emotional issues, that are buried deeper than Haruhi's are.

Again, becoming God might drive Sasaki totally off the deep end.
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Old 2008-09-05, 21:12   Link #1458
ijuinkun
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Technically Saski has bluntly stated her disinterest in taking the power.
Yes, but it's Kyoko and Fujiwara that I am suspicious of--THEY are the ones who are pushing for the transfer of power, so it is THEIR motives that should receive scrutiny.
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Old 2008-09-05, 21:25   Link #1459
typhonsentra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Thing is, we know what Haruhi would do. We don't know what Sasaki would do.

Better the evil you know than the evil you don't know, right?



Wait, I'm confused. Didn't Yuki create the math puzzle on the door to give the SOS Brigade a way out? The math puzzle to which "4" was the key?
Yes she did, what I'm suggesting is that the "4 shape" might've been a coincidence. Just a theory to explain the (Probably wishful thinking) theory that the cause of who appeared in who's room was secret desire. It... makes sense in my head what I'm saying.
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Old 2008-09-05, 21:39   Link #1460
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
Yes she did, what I'm suggesting is that the "4 shape" might've been a coincidence. Just a theory to explain the (Probably wishful thinking) theory that the cause of who appeared in who's room was secret desire. It... makes sense in my head what I'm saying.
I don't think Mikuru is secretly a lesbian with Stockholm Syndrome. (I also don't think Koizumi is anything more gay than maybe bisexual, but that's just me.)

Given Mikuru's attachment to Kyon for protection, and her clear physical attraction for Koizumi during his first appearance, I don't think the Snow Mountain Illusions have anything to do with who likes who.
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