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Old 2009-04-29, 16:14   Link #1881
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
The IDE doesn't want the power/ability to evolve. They want to use it to evolve. So with the facts we know it doesn't entirely make sense why the IDE wouldn't just take the ability and use it for their own aims.
Didn't they want to figure out how she creates data out of nothing so they can reverse engineer it and use it to evolve?

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
ex:An IDE Interface is incapable of controlling Avatar buildup "stress". Only Espers are capable of properly fighting the Avatars and controlling their build up. An IDE interface manipulating Haruhi's power would not be able to express Espers properly, meaning that Avatar Closed spaces would grow uncontrolled.
Fits in well with my theory. Only certain human beings are capable of controlling the Avatar buildup.

Since both Sasaki and Haruhi appear to have created Espers...

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I find the idea that the IDE considers their interfaces more demented than Haruhi amusing.
I agree, very amusing indeed.
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Old 2009-04-29, 16:22   Link #1882
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Didn't they want to figure out how she creates data out of nothing so they can reverse engineer it and use it to evolve?
Yes. So everytime Haruhi did something with her "power" they were very interested in observing it in order to figure out how it worked. But Haruhi didn't always "put out". From a simply pragmatic perspective, the IDE would have simply grabbed the power and started tinkering with it until they figured out how it worked. They didn't. That would suggest that there was something preventing them from doing it.

I'm thinking it was a matter of the IDE thinking that it's interfaces which could manipulate the power

Aid not have the ability to safely hold the power
or
B:Were not reliable enough to be given that much power
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Fits in well with my theory. Only certain human beings are capable of controlling the Avatar buildup.

Since both Sasaki and Haruhi appear to have created Espers...
The fact that Sasaki had an Esper group seemed to be a strong indicator that such individuals are part of the natural control system for individuals who can utilize the power.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I agree, very amusing indeed.
People give Haruhi a hard time for doing wacky shit with her abilities. But she is hardly that bad. Imagine if it was in some North Korean peasant who'd been indoctrinated into believing that Kim was a god? Or a white supremacist. Or Charles Manson!

Helter Skelter anyone?
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Old 2009-04-29, 16:49   Link #1883
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
The fact that Sasaki had an Esper group seemed to be a strong indicator that such individuals are part of the natural control system for individuals who can utilize the power.
I think we've just figured out something concrete about the Haruhiverse. Excellent.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
People give Haruhi a hard time for doing wacky shit with her abilities. But she is hardly that bad. Imagine if it was in some North Korean peasant who'd been indoctrinated into believing that Kim was a god? Or a white supremacist. Or Charles Manson!

Helter Skelter anyone?
One reason I think the "Haruhi is a sociopath" argument is worthless. As you say, she isn't that bad.
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Old 2009-04-29, 18:21   Link #1884
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What? similar to the Evangelion ending where Asuka and Shinji are the last humans left?
Amusingly enough, I didn't even realize the Eva parallel until after I posted
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-04-29, 18:28   Link #1885
Kaisos Erranon
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Amusingly enough, I didn't even realize the Eva parallel until after I posted
I've been saying that Haruhi should end like that for years...
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Old 2009-04-29, 19:44   Link #1886
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I think we've just figured out something concrete about the Haruhiverse. Excellent.
Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
One reason I think the "Haruhi is a sociopath" argument is worthless. As you say, she isn't that bad.
If Haruhi was a true malevolent sociopath the world would be a far scarier place.
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Old 2009-04-30, 02:10   Link #1887
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Which brings up the question of why the IDE didn't just have one of their interfaces just grab the power from the start and use it for their research...
Anybody ever seen Stargate SG-1? Giving a Cliff Notes version of the pertinent section of the 10-year-long storyline, there's this super-advanced alien race called the Asgard (they are more or less the inspiration for Norse mythology) who created these semi-sentient insectoid machines called "Replicators" (imagine if an Erector set mated with a box of Legos), who (surprise, surprise) turn against their creators and threaten to wipe them out by literally eating everything and turning it into more Replicators (hence the name). Problem is, the Asgard are massively advanced, but after millenia of cloning to extend their lives and consciousnesses, they have reached a dead end in both evolution and imagination. As a result, the fight against the nigh-indestructable Replicators is not going well. Enter our plucky human protagonists, who after finding no luck attacking the Replicators with energy weapons (and finding that the Asgard have had no luck with their own considerably more potent and advanced energy weapons) take to blasting them to pieces with small arms fire, to great success. Throughout the majority of the rest of the series, the Asgard, instead of just churning out a ton of shotguns and uzis to defend themselves, continue to rely on the humans to pull their little "Grey" asses out of the fire in battles against the Replicators. The concept of using projectile weapons is so ancient and backward to them that they are more or less incapable of even considering it.

So it is with the Data Overmind. Sure, Yuki can "borrow" Haruhi's (and Mikuru's) power to turn everything within a year or two radius into one big bachelorette pad in order to get Kyon into her pants, but the execution is imperfect, and would have likely been doomed to failure due to a still-psychopathic Asakura, even had Kyon not hit the reset button. The grasp of Haruhi's powers is even more "alien" to the Data Overmind as a whole, so there's no way they'd be able to just pick it up and figure it out on their own. This is one situation where observation is the only way to learn.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Since both Sasaki and Haruhi appear to have created Espers...
I still have my doubts that Tachibana is a "Sasaki Esper". I think that either she's a rogue "Haruhi Esper" that has a slightly different power from Itsuki (illusion, limited mind control), or a powerless "potential Sasaki Esper" and the undoubtedly powered Kuyoh was the one manipulating Kyon's perceptions of Tachibana's "powers". Assuming, as the "Haruhi Espers" such as Itsuki believe, that all their power comes from Haruhi, how would Tachibana have any power if Sasaki has had hers usurped? That and "Sasaki's Closed Space" and the little details of going and coming out of it just strike me as...off...
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Old 2009-04-30, 06:13   Link #1888
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
*snip*
Not quite sure if this is a good analogy.

The disappearance saga suggests pretty strongly that an IDE interface is perfectly capable of manipulating the power. Any apparent limitation limitation with the power is more likely due to Yuki's own restraint than any hardset limit on her ability to use the power. I mean, she removed the IDE from the entire UNIVERSE.

The only reason the IDE wouldn't take the power either for direct practical application or for easier experimentation is probably because they had control issues of some kind.
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Assuming, as the "Haruhi Espers" such as Itsuki believe, that all their power comes from Haruhi, how would Tachibana have any power if Sasaki has had hers usurped?
I think the Sasaki Espers still do have their power. It's just that they have little opportunity to utilize it due to Sasaki not creating Avatars, or not being capable of producing them at this time.

The fact that they can enter closed spaces suggests that they still have power despite Sasaki not having anyone.
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
That and "Sasaki's Closed Space" and the little details of going and coming out of it just strike me as...off...
It's supposed to. It's supposed to remind you that there are fundemental differences between Haruhi and Sasaki.
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Old 2009-04-30, 08:24   Link #1889
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Not quite sure if this is a good analogy.

The disappearance saga suggests pretty strongly that an IDE interface is perfectly capable of manipulating the power. Any apparent limitation limitation with the power is more likely due to Yuki's own restraint than any hardset limit on her ability to use the power. I mean, she removed the IDE from the entire UNIVERSE.
I wonder if it isn't a chicken and egg problem. Did using the power send Yuki for a loop, and make her do all those things, or was she slowly going nuts to begin with and that drove her to use it?

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
The only reason the IDE wouldn't take the power either for direct practical application or for easier experimentation is probably because they had control issues of some kind.
Or they wanted a try before you buy. If they genuinely don't know what it is, it might be a good ideal to keep it in somebody else's body rather than hook it up directly to what are essentially one of the gods of the universe.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I think the Sasaki Espers still do have their power. It's just that they have little opportunity to utilize it due to Sasaki not creating Avatars, or not being capable of producing them at this time.

The fact that they can enter closed spaces suggests that they still have power despite Sasaki not having anyone.

It's supposed to. It's supposed to remind you that there are fundemental differences between Haruhi and Sasaki.
I wonder about Sasaki a little. I mean, she looks saner than Haruhi on her best day, but then she goes and associates with this anti-SOS brigade that couldn't look any shadier if it tried...
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Old 2009-04-30, 08:50   Link #1890
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
I wonder about Sasaki a little. I mean, she looks saner than Haruhi on her best day, but then she goes and associates with this anti-SOS brigade that couldn't look any shadier if it tried...
Of course, despite how bad they look, Fujiwara's goals at the least seem a hell of a lot more noble than the goals of the actual SOS Brigade.

This may be the point.


Also, this made me laugh (NSFW). Artefact is such a horrible troll.
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Old 2009-04-30, 09:36   Link #1891
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I think the Sasaki Espers still do have their power. It's just that they have little opportunity to utilize it due to Sasaki not creating Avatars, or not being capable of producing them at this time.

The fact that they can enter closed spaces suggests that they still have power despite Sasaki not having anyone.
I think that it is very possible that Sasaki does have powers similar to Haruhi, but because of her personality and outlook she has never used them. Perhaps she and Haruhi are like Yin and Yang. Opposite sides of the same power.

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Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
I wonder if it isn't a chicken and egg problem. Did using the power send Yuki for a loop, and make her do all those things, or was she slowly going nuts to begin with and that drove her to use it?
The novels indicate that it was Yuki's inability to deal with the increasing amount of "Junk Data", i.e. her developing human emotions that the IDE could not understand, that caused her to create a world where she could have Kyon. But, because of her faith in and her feelings for Kyon, she gave him the ability to restore the original Time Line. I think that it would be very interesting if she was to declare herself as Haruhi's rival for Kyon's affections. He has already realized that he is as attracted to Yuki as he is to Mikuru.
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Old 2009-04-30, 13:13   Link #1892
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Perhaps she and Haruhi are like Yin and Yang. Opposite sides of the same power.
Perhaps they are opposite sides of the same person!

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Old 2009-04-30, 13:39   Link #1893
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
I wonder if it isn't a chicken and egg problem. Did using the power send Yuki for a loop, and make her do all those things, or was she slowly going nuts to begin with and that drove her to use it?
Since prior to this none of the interfaces had ever tried to acquire the power, I'm inclined to believe it was due to Yuki going nuts prior to getting it.
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Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
Or they wanted a try before you buy. If they genuinely don't know what it is, it might be a good ideal to keep it in somebody else's body rather than hook it up directly to what are essentially one of the gods of the universe.
If it was anything like that it would have been done long before Kyon came into the picture.

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Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
I wonder about Sasaki a little. I mean, she looks saner than Haruhi on her best day, but then she goes and associates with this anti-SOS brigade that couldn't look any shadier if it tried...
Read KaiSOS'es post.
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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
I think that it is very possible that Sasaki does have powers similar to Haruhi, but because of her personality and outlook she has never used them. Perhaps she and Haruhi are like Yin and Yang. Opposite sides of the same power.
If that was the case I doubt the Anti SOS would be organizing operation "Get Kyon to help us depower Haruhi and give it Sasaki".
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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
The novels indicate that it was Yuki's inability to deal with the increasing amount of "Junk Data", i.e. her developing human emotions that the IDE could not understand, that caused her to create a world where she could have Kyon. But, because of her faith in and her feelings for Kyon, she gave him the ability to restore the original Time Line. I think that it would be very interesting if she was to declare herself as Haruhi's rival for Kyon's affections. He has already realized that he is as attracted to Yuki as he is to Mikuru.
That would count as bad end.
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Old 2009-04-30, 13:43   Link #1894
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Of course, despite how bad they look, Fujiwara's goals at the least seem a hell of a lot more noble than the goals of the actual SOS Brigade.
Does that include kidnapping Mikuru on the street?

Granted, Haruhi technically kidnapped Mikuru too, but at least Mikuru had agreed to stay because of her mission.

SOS dan certainly has a noble goal; a bunch of friends having fun, isn't that good enough? In case you forgot, that's what a school-club is suppose to be.

If Fujiwara wants to fight his fate, he can do it on his own and not get others involved. As it is, he is just complaining about what he has to do regardless. It's like an assassin complaining about not liking to kill people, but kills you anyway.
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Old 2009-04-30, 14:27   Link #1895
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Does that include kidnapping Mikuru on the street?
It's kind of hard to hold that against them when you take yourself outside the POV that Mikuru is cute/charming and consider the nature of the organization she represents. Do you really think the time travelers have the luxury of maintaining their future by committing nothing but acts as innocent as insuring that two people will get married?

What do you think the Time Travelers do when they have to ensure that someone needs to die a horrible painful death?
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
SOS dan certainly has a noble goal; a bunch of friends having fun, isn't that good enough? In case you forgot, that's what a school-club is suppose to be.
That's viewing it simplistically. The SOS Dan exists to keep Haruhi happy. The three "Haruhi" factions do this for entirely pragmatic reasons, it coincides with their aims.

Espers/Organization:Keep humanity safe
IDE:Study Haruhi
Time Travelers:Preserve history

We get quite a few hints throughout the series that the actual organizations/groups are far more insidious than their representatives in the club would suggest.
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If Fujiwara wants to fight his fate, he can do it on his own and not get others involved. As it is, he is just complaining about what he has to do regardless. It's like an assassin complaining about not liking to kill people, but kills you anyway.
Again, our narrator does not have a good overall view of the situation and has personal bias. It's very possible that Fujiwara's goals may be far more noble than his personality or methods might suggest.
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Old 2009-04-30, 17:46   Link #1896
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Does that include kidnapping Mikuru on the street?
You do realize that it was Tachibana's group that was behind that one, don't you?

Fujiwara was actually quite irritated about having to be involved in the whole thing. Mostly, because, history stated that they had to do it. And his faction's goal, if you'll remember, is to make it so that they don't have to do the stuff history says they did. The whole point of his group going to the past is to use the Haruhi-powers to make it so they don't have to do things like kidnap Mikuru.

Unless the whole thing about there being two factions of time travelers is just Mikuru's group screwing with us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
SOS dan certainly has a noble goal; a bunch of friends having fun, isn't that good enough? In case you forgot, that's what a school-club is suppose to be.
On the scale of nobility, I think "Making it so we don't have to live our lives as mere puppets of history" is a good deal more noble than "friends having fun."
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Old 2009-04-30, 17:51   Link #1897
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On the scale of nobility, I think "Making it so we don't have to live our lives as mere puppets of history" is a good deal more noble than "friends having fun."
Quoted for truth.
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Old 2009-04-30, 21:55   Link #1898
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Reading all of the above, I just thought of something. How many time paradoxes have been created in the Haruhiverse?
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Old 2009-04-30, 21:57   Link #1899
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None we know of, according to consensus... just three or four stable time loops.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-04-30, 22:17   Link #1900
Kaisos Erranon
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Only thing resembling a true paradox (that Kyon hasn't fixed) is the timequake that cut off the past three/four years ago.

And we know the time travelers have been into the past before because of the artifact now in the care of the Tsuruya family. (I doubt there are Precursors in Haruhi.)
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