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Old 2009-04-30, 22:32   Link #1901
dragon4dudes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Only thing resembling a true paradox (that Kyon hasn't fixed) is the timequake that cut off the past three/four years ago.
And how is the timequake a paradox? The connection is not clear.
Crap. Reasoning analysis is kicking in. Damn you Social Studies department...

Quote:
And we know the time travelers have been into the past before because of the artifact now in the care of the Tsuruya family. (I doubt there are Precursors in Haruhi.)
Did we discuss the potential importance of the Tsuruya family? I forget, though I know it is somewhere, I don't remember where.
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Old 2009-04-30, 22:54   Link #1902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Only thing resembling a true paradox (that Kyon hasn't fixed) is the timequake that cut off the past three/four years ago.
Can you specify what kind of paradox it is?
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:02   Link #1903
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Can you specify what kind of paradox it is?
No. Hence the "resembling". It's not even a real paradox, just Haruhi dicking with the timeline.

Haruhi is fairly unique in popular fiction in that it manages to avoid universe-breaking paradoxes. Unlike, say, Chrono Trigger. Oh, Chrono Trigger.

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Originally Posted by dragon4dudes View Post
Did we discuss the potential importance of the Tsuruya family? I forget, though I know it is somewhere, I don't remember where.
They're secretly a family of absurdly rich epic-level martial artists?

And they have a Batcave?
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:20   Link #1904
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Actually... correction: There is one undeniable ontological paradox: In Melancholy, Adult Mikuru uses the mole on her breast as a means to identify herself to Kyon. At this point, Kyon did not know she had one there, and the event of him telling her about it(and thus letting her know) didn't come until the end of the story.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:25   Link #1905
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
What do you think the Time Travelers do when they have to ensure that someone needs to die a horrible painful death?
I don't know, why don't you ask the anti-SOS-dan? They were the ones trying to run a child over with a truck so he could never invent the time machine, and Mikuru had to save him.
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:40   Link #1906
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Actually... correction: There is one undeniable ontological paradox: In Melancholy, Adult Mikuru uses the mole on her breast as a means to identify herself to Kyon. At this point, Kyon did not know she had one there, and the event of him telling her about it(and thus letting her know) didn't come until the end of the story.
Isn't that just a time loop, effectively?

Predestination/ontological paradoxes are only paradoxes in that the information/object comes from nowhere, not in that they cause any sort of break in consistency.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I don't know, why don't you ask the anti-SOS-dan? They were the ones trying to run a child over with a truck so he could never invent the time machine, and Mikuru had to save him.
So both sides are morally ambiguous. Big surprise, that's how real life works too.

For what it's worth, I side with Fujiwara. Being a puppet isn't a very pleasant idea.
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:47   Link #1907
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So both sides are morally ambiguous. Big surprise, that's how real life works too.

For what it's worth, I side with Fujiwara. Being a puppet isn't a very pleasant idea.
So who would you like to run over with a truck today?

If you don't like to do it, don't side with them. Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:55   Link #1908
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I don't know, why don't you ask the anti-SOS-dan? They were the ones trying to run a child over with a truck so he could never invent the time machine, and Mikuru had to save him.
That was trying to change the past by killing someone. You can ask Fujiwara's group about what to do when they have to kill someone to change the past. Their answer, of course: They fail. If they had succeeded, it would have created a paradox.

When/if Mikuru's group has to make someone die to preserve the past, they do something different: They succeed. See, they wouldn't have to kill someone in the past unless that person died according to history. And if that person would live without their intervention, but history records that person's death, then their attempt to kill that person must succeed because history says so. If they fail, it would create a paradox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Isn't that just a time loop, effectively?

Predestination/ontological paradoxes are only paradoxes in that the information/object comes from nowhere, not in that they cause any sort of break in consistency.
They do break consistency a little bit, but no more than quantum mechanics allows. See, while you can see how they work once they get closed, they can't be predicted by observing the past. Newtonian physics, if possessing a consciousness, would hate them. But quantum mechanics says that bits of matter spontaneously appear every now and then, so why not information?

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.
True, liking one more than the other doesn't mean they're automatically more admirable. The fact that (unless it is all a put-on by Mikuru's group) Fujiwara is trying to stop being a puppet, though, does. The Anti-SOS Dan wants to improve things (as far as they see them).
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:58   Link #1909
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So who would you like to run over with a truck today?
Whoever deserves it or whoever would free us from consistency?

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If you don't like to do it, don't side with them. Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.
I love the SOS-dan. Just not their superiors, who scare me a little.
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:00   Link #1910
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The Anti-SOS Dan wants to improve things (as far as they see them).
And so does SOS-dan, so we are going around in circles. Everyone does what he/she think is for the best. Even when Yuki hacked the universe, or when Asakura tried to stab Kyon.

It's not what you want, but how you do things to get it, that matters.

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I love the SOS-dan. Just not their superiors, who scare me a little.
The only bosses of SOS-dan are Haruhi and Kyon. The time-travelers wouldn't EXIST unless Haruhi had written the school publication. And whatever future they have in mind is subject to change. Kyon had blackmailed Yuki's bosses; he can do the same for Mikuru's bosses if he wants.
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:05   Link #1911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So who would you like to run over with a truck today?

If you don't like to do it, don't side with them. Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.
So, have you injured someone so they can hook up with a person working at the hospital lately?

Mikuru's group isn't really much better. While it obviously hasn't come up yet, they'd most likely be just as willing to kill someone to ensure the future as Fujiwara's group would be to change it.

*e* and I think he meant the superiors of the three factions associated with the SOS Brigade...
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:05   Link #1912
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It's not what you want, but how you do things to get it, that matters.
So the question should be "what is more efficient"?

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The only bosses of SOS-dan are Haruhi and Kyon. The time-travelers wouldn't EXIST unless Haruhi had written the school publication. And whatever future they have in mind is subject to change. Kyon had blackmailed Yuki's bosses; he can do the same for Mikuru's bosses if he wants.
Why would he do this though? To him, Mikuru's boss is Mikuru herself.

Besides. There's no proof Haruhi actually rewrote the universe in that way. The only people who believe that are the Espers, represented by Koizumi, and Koizumi practically admits to be lying half the time.

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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
They do break consistency a little bit, but no more than quantum mechanics allows. See, while you can see how they work once they get closed, they can't be predicted by observing the past. Newtonian physics, if possessing a consciousness, would hate them. But quantum mechanics says that bits of matter spontaneously appear every now and then, so why not information?
I always thought the information or objects, or, in the case of Haruhi, data, was created from concentrated, manifested timestream or something.
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:08   Link #1913
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Besides. There's no proof Haruhi actually rewrote the universe in that way. The only people who believe that are the Espers, represented by Koizumi, and Koizumi practically admits to be lying half the time.
Mikuru had been shown to be SHOCKED that Haruhi's theory in the school publication was the equivalent of E=mc^2 of time-travel, that was taught to all school kids in the future. The source of the original theory was not known at the time, and we don't know of Mikuru had told anyone even as an adult. It is essentially fact that Haruhi created time-travelers the old fashioned way; by making time travel possible.
Spoiler for novel spoiler:
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:10   Link #1914
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Mikuru had been shown to be SHOCKED that Haruhi's theory in the school publication was the equivalent of E=mc^2 of time-travel, that was taught to all school kids in the future. The source of the original theory was not known at the time, and we don't know of Mikuru had told anyone even as an adult. It is essentially fact that Haruhi created time-travelers the old fashioned way; by making time travel possible.
Hrr. True. I'll give you that.
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:18   Link #1915
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And so does SOS-dan, so we are going around in circles. Everyone does what he/she think is for the best. Even when Yuki hacked the universe, or when Asakura tried to stab Kyon.

It's not what you want, but how you do things to get it, that matters.
Doing what they think is best does not equal working to improve things. While the Organization would like to see the powers disappear while otherwise maintaining the world as it is (improvement) and the IDTE would like to use the power to evolve (unknown impact), Mikuru's group is opposed to improving things. Their goal is maintaining the status quo at whatever their history says happened.

For a time traveler, any horrible thing that will happen to you between the time you are in and the time the time traveler came from is part of the status quo. And it wouldn't make sense to not be willing to tell people you want on your side their futures unless said people would prefer to avoid said future events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The only bosses of SOS-dan are Haruhi and Kyon. The time-travelers wouldn't EXIST unless Haruhi had written the school publication. And whatever future they have in mind is subject to change. Kyon had blackmailed Yuki's bosses; he can do the same for Mikuru's bosses if he wants.
Um, no he can't. If the future - the future that is their present - changes, that would be the same as destroying their world. He can't exactly blackmail them with something worse than that.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I always thought the information or objects, or, in the case of Haruhi, data, was created from concentrated, manifested timestream or something.
Heh, no need to resort to something like that when quantum mechanics will suffice.
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:22   Link #1916
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Hrr. True. I'll give you that.
This also means something else; since Haruhi is the source of time travel technology, the invention of time travel is essentially guaranteed. You can try to kill people off associated with time machine construction, but Haruhi is the pillar holding everything up from the ground. You can't kill the source; though the anti-SOS dan might be trying that.
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:25   Link #1917
Kaisos Erranon
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Heh, no need to resort to something like that when quantum mechanics will suffice.
Never understood quantum physics. It's like they took every confusing aspect of science, put it in a single box, and labeled it.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You can't kill the source; though the anti-SOS dan might be trying that.
Transfer the power to Sasaki, kill Haruhi? Makes sense.

Scary part is, Vol. 9 being how it is, this might actually work in the Beta timeline.
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:28   Link #1918
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To be honest, I'm expecting one of the "timelines" to be the result of Kyon being in a Lotus Eater Machine... most likely caused by either the Data Overmind or the Canopy Domain.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:43   Link #1919
Kaisos Erranon
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To be honest, I'm expecting one of the "timelines" to be the result of Kyon being in a Lotus Eater Machine... most likely caused by either the Data Overmind or the Canopy Domain.
Beta seems less... permanent. Just the larger presence of the Anti-SOS and Yuki's sickness. (And besides, Alpha is going to give us a new member and I want her to be permanent.)

But isn't a Lotus Eater Machine a POSITIVE fantasy? Then you'd be implying that Alpha is the fake world and Beta is the real one.... that's a bit too GRIMDARK for Haruhi.
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Old 2009-05-01, 01:17   Link #1920
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The Beta timeline is more along the lines of something Kyon is used to experiencing, and thus he wouldn't expect anything of it. The Alpha timeline is, with the exception of the new girl, dull compared to the rest of the series.



If it's something the Data Overmind is doing to Kyon, it'd be the Beta timeline that's the fake, as they already know that Kyon likes his messed up life, and it'd serve to make certain that he stays on their "side" by portraying the opposition as bad. As for Nagato's sickness during it, what better way to make the Canopy Domain seem bad than by simulating something Kyon already knows they've done to her? Alternatively, they're keeping him in a LEM to hide the fact that she's been deleted and everyone is slowly forgetting she even existed, with her sickness ultimately resulting in "death" in the dream to ensure Kyon doesn't manipulate Haruhi into bringing her back.

If it's the Canopy Domain, then the Alpha timeline is the fake, as they'd be trying to make his life in the SOS Brigade seem dull. Alternatively, they don't really know he actually enjoys the bizarre occurrences in his life and are trying to give him as close to a normal life as he'd believe. If the Alpha timeline would be the fake, then the new girl is actually the key thing that will make Kyon ultimately realize what the heck is going on and break out of it.

Another possibility is that they're both manipulating him simultaneously, and neither timeline is real. The seemingly random jumps between the two are instances where one illusion overtakes the other.



Of course, this is just an insane theory
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... well at least it's consistent...
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