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Old 2009-05-01, 01:21   Link #1921
Kaisos Erranon
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That's actually a really awesome theory. Cookies to you.


Also, the novels usually start off fairly dull... and then something really big happens.

I'm still more inclined to think that these are actually parallel universes and that new girl is a slider though. Would make sense.
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Old 2009-05-01, 01:36   Link #1922
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It's funny how the more insane my theories get, the better they end up sounding to others...
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Old 2009-05-01, 02:24   Link #1923
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
On the scale of nobility, I think "Making it so we don't have to live our lives as mere puppets of history" is a good deal more noble than "friends having fun."
That's like saying that 6x must be more than 4y because 6 is more than 4. You're not getting all of the equation.

For all we know, "Fujiwara's" group of time travelers are the time traveler equivalent of post WWI Germany. With the massive post-war penalties levied on Germany, the average German, who most likely had little to do with the war their former leaders got them into, would feel pretty much like a "puppet" of the rest of Europe. What they ended up doing to try to make their country great again was to elect a charismatic leader with a strong message who they thought would lead them back to greatness. It...didn't work out too well.

On the other side, "friends having fun" has a pretty straightforward "noble" component when experience shows that one of those "friends" is very capable of subconsciously destroying the universe and all her billions of sentient creatures in a fit of boredom...

Sympathize with "Fujiwara" all you want, but if one of the timelines ends up with Kyon giving the victory to his side, don't be too surprised when Ol' "Fuji" declares "Finally! With them gone, there's no one to stop us from nuking Detroit!"...

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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
To be honest, I'm expecting one of the "timelines" to be the result of Kyon being in a Lotus Eater Machine... most likely caused by either the Data Overmind or the Canopy Domain.
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It's funny how the more insane my theories get, the better they end up sounding to others...
Insane theory is insane, all right... ^_^

With all the convolution involved in Haruhi to this point, wouldn't the most surprising and satisfying thing be if everything actually was what it seemed to be for once?
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Old 2009-05-01, 06:17   Link #1924
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I don't know, why don't you ask the anti-SOS-dan? They were the ones trying to run a child over with a truck so he could never invent the time machine, and Mikuru had to save him.
I don't recall it being the Sasaki time travelers who tried to run over the kid with the truck...

Of course you could argue that if there was any attempt such as this, it'd be more comparable to that one Star Trek episode where they killed that good intentioned peace activist who would have prevented the US from joining world war 2, letting the Nazi's win.

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So who would you like to run over with a truck today?

If you don't like to do it, don't side with them. Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.
It's a very real possibility that the Sasaki time travelers ARE the closest thing to good guys from the future.

On one hand we have the time travelers who realistically have to resort to the mass murder of millions continually to meet their objectives.

Then we have Sasaki time travelers, who may have to kill quite a few (but still less than the Mikuru faction) for some time and who's success would mean they wouldn't have to kill anyone anymore and that the Haruhi time travelers wouldn't have to kill anyone.
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It's not what you want, but how you do things to get it, that matters.
The Mikuru time travelers realistically would have to do things in a very nasty manner in comparison to the Fujiwara group.
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*snip*
And that's what the Mikuru group could be.
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Old 2009-05-01, 09:30   Link #1925
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I don't recall it being the Sasaki time travelers who tried to run over the kid with the truck...
Who else could it BE? It was Mikuru's mission to save the kid. The kid who was NOT suppose to be killed originally. Someone wanted to murder a child so time travel would never happen. That's Sasaki's people.

Of course, now that they know Haruhi is the true source of the time machine, they have to kill Haruhi, a much harder task.
Quote:
The Mikuru time travelers realistically would have to do things in a very nasty manner in comparison to the Fujiwara group.
Example?
I give you "run kid over with truck" by the Fujiwara group. You give me something worse. There is no evidence that Fujiwara kill less people than Mikuru. You just THINK they do.
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Old 2009-05-01, 09:41   Link #1926
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
For all we know, "Fujiwara's" group of time travelers are the time traveler equivalent of post WWI Germany. With the massive post-war penalties levied on Germany, the average German, who most likely had little to do with the war their former leaders got them into, would feel pretty much like a "puppet" of the rest of Europe. What they ended up doing to try to make their country great again was to elect a charismatic leader with a strong message who they thought would lead them back to greatness. It...didn't work out too well.
Let's try to avoid invoking Godwin's Law, shall we?

Anyway, IMO, Mikuru's faction want to keep the past intact chiefly because any significant changes will result in people and things in their world becoming Ret Gone, i.e. erased from existence. You'd do a lot of morally dubious things too if you thought that you were preventing a change in history that would result in your friends, a family member, your nation, or possibly your SELF having never existed. I expect that it is the belief of Mikuru's faction that the goals of Fujiwara's faction can not be realized without the whole timeline from Haruhi's time until their own being rewritten, including the retroactive non-existance of any people who would not be in the new timeline.

Let's look at the standard "Terminator" scenario. Somebody really REALLY hates somebody very dear to you will do, whom he blames for ruining his live, even though the action against himself itself is not one that a third party would call a morally reprehensible one. Maybe it was witnessing against him in court, resulting in him being jailed, or maybe it was something as unaware and innocent as making him late for an appointment and unwittingly causing him to be rejected for a job. Anyway, so this guy goes back in time and decides that the solution to his problem is to kill the person he blames before the offense ever happened. Now, let's say that you also have access to time travel, and you travel back in time to catch this guy just as he is about to pull the trigger.

The question is: Would (and should) you stop him, even if you have to kill him to do so?

More abstractly, how far would you go to ensure that yourself, or your husband/wife/family/friends are born (or are not killed)? That is the kind of dilemma that Mikuru's faction are facing. How many people can a person kill (or otherwise harm) in order to survive before we can be morally justified in saying that he or she should just submit to being killed instead?
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Old 2009-05-01, 13:24   Link #1927
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Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
How many people can a person kill (or otherwise harm) in order to survive before we can be morally justified in saying that he or she should just submit to being killed instead?
A question invoked throughout real history many times.

Which is more evil? The person who kills a few to save the many or the person who kills many to save a few?
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Old 2009-05-01, 13:30   Link #1928
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Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
Let's look at the standard "Terminator" scenario. Somebody really REALLY hates somebody very dear to you will do, whom he blames for ruining his live, even though the action against himself itself is not one that a third party would call a morally reprehensible one. Maybe it was witnessing against him in court, resulting in him being jailed, or maybe it was something as unaware and innocent as making him late for an appointment and unwittingly causing him to be rejected for a job. Anyway, so this guy goes back in time and decides that the solution to his problem is to kill the person he blames before the offense ever happened. Now, let's say that you also have access to time travel, and you travel back in time to catch this guy just as he is about to pull the trigger.

The question is: Would (and should) you stop him, even if you have to kill him to do so?
The problem with this scenario is that very few people would allow a loved one to die over something trivial, so it's heavily biased in favor of keeping history unchanged.
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Old 2009-05-01, 13:35   Link #1929
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Never understood quantum physics. It's like they took every confusing aspect of science, put it in a single box, and labeled it.
The universe is under no obligation to make sense to we humans.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Who else could it BE? It was Mikuru's mission to save the kid. The kid who was NOT suppose to be killed originally. Someone wanted to murder a child so time travel would never happen. That's Sasaki's people.
But not Sasaki's time travelers. The van appeared to belong to Sasaki's Espers. It would be a mistake to think that the groups of the Anti-SOS Dan are homogeneous in goal and method. Please recall the scene at the cafe in which Tachibana was upset because neither of the other two groups had a real interest in transferring the powers to Sasaki.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Of course, now that they know Haruhi is the true source of the time machine, they have to kill Haruhi, a much harder task.
Bzzt! You fail time travel logic. Haruhi has already spread the source equation, so trying to kill her in the present would do no good. Trying to kill her in the past would be doomed to failure without the logic-defying Haruhi-powers. Killing her at this point would do them no good, and it would be impossible in the past unless they already had her powers, in which case they wouldn't have a need to kill her.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Example?
I give you "run kid over with truck" by the Fujiwara group. You give me something worse. There is no evidence that Fujiwara kill less people than Mikuru. You just THINK they do.
True, there is no evidence that Mikuru's group would kill more people than Fujiwara's group. There is evidence, though, that they are willing to mindrape their own agents to keep them from giving away any information that would be inconvenient to spread. Remember my point about there not being a need to refuse to tell people about future events unless said people would prefer to avoid those events?
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Old 2009-05-01, 14:21   Link #1930
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
But not Sasaki's time travelers. The van appeared to belong to Sasaki's Espers. It would be a mistake to think that the groups of the Anti-SOS Dan are homogeneous in goal and method. Please recall the scene at the cafe in which Tachibana was upset because neither of the other two groups had a real interest in transferring the powers to Sasaki.
Why would Tachibana's group want to kill a kid that later creates time travel?
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Old 2009-05-01, 14:47   Link #1931
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Why would Tachibana's group want to kill a kid that later creates time travel?
History says they did?
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Old 2009-05-01, 14:49   Link #1932
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Why would Tachibana's group want to kill a kid that later creates time travel?
Because of what "sneering bastard" wanted; freedom from a pre-determined destiny. This is only possible if time travel does not exist, which in this case, require Haruhi's death, because she is the source of the time travel technology. They can kill scientists and burn research all they like, but as long as Haruhi hasn't been depowered and killed, her desire to cause time travelers to exist would cause it to happen.

Quote:
Bzzt! You fail time travel logic. Haruhi has already spread the source equation, so trying to kill her in the present would do no good. Trying to kill her in the past would be doomed to failure without the logic-defying Haruhi-powers. Killing her at this point would do them no good, and it would be impossible in the past unless they already had her powers, in which case they wouldn't have a need to kill her.
The source equation could be destroyed, this is the advantage of having a time machine. But the ONE equation they can't destroy is in Haruhi's head. Hence, depowering her, killing her, and follow up with a cleansing of all documents leading to time travel in all time and space.

Quote:
True, there is no evidence that Mikuru's group would kill more people than Fujiwara's group. There is evidence, though, that they are willing to mindrape their own agents to keep them from giving away any information that would be inconvenient to spread. Remember my point about there not being a need to refuse to tell people about future events unless said people would prefer to avoid those events?
Nothing suggest this is unique to Mikuru's group; as far as I am concerned, this is standard time travel safety protocol. I would expect no less for something as dangerous as time line protection.

You WANT information to be inconveniently spread? Does timeline chaos sound fun to you? You might as well claim it is a breach of freedoms to force doctors to wash their hands before performing surgery. Safety first.
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Old 2009-05-01, 14:58   Link #1933
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
*snip*
They can't actually kill Haruhi though. History says they didn't. Maybe.

Hence why they need to use her powers to do so, and the easiest way would be to transfer the powers to Sasaki, who they can control easily. Or so they think.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Nothing suggest this is unique to Mikuru's group; as far as I am concerned, this is standard time travel safety protocol. I would expect no less for something as dangerous as time line protection.

You WANT information to be inconveniently spread? Does timeline chaos sound fun to you? You might as well claim it is a breach of freedoms to force doctors to wash their hands before performing surgery. Safety first.
Brainwashing people =/= washing hands before surgery.

That's a bad analogy and I can't think of a better one, unfortunately.
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Old 2009-05-01, 15:58   Link #1934
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Who else could it BE? It was Mikuru's mission to save the kid. The kid who was NOT suppose to be killed originally. Someone wanted to murder a child so time travel would never happen. That's Sasaki's people.
Ummm, you realize that people do occasionally die in car accidents, right? It is in fact one of the leading causes of death in modern urbanized societies. The fact that in order for the Future peoples history to happen Kyon had to keep the kid from being run over is not evidence that the Fujiwara group was trying to murder him.

And if the Fujiwara group really wanted to kill the kid in question, you gotta wonder why they they didn't turn around to finish the job. Or put a bomb in the truck. Or just have someone shoot him.
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Of course, now that they know Haruhi is the true source of the time machine, they have to kill Haruhi, a much harder task.
Of course we don't have any evidence that they wanted to kill anyone in the first place aside from you jumping to conclusions.
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Example?
I give you "run kid over with truck" by the Fujiwara group. You give me something worse. There is no evidence that Fujiwara kill less people than Mikuru. You just THINK they do.
There's nothing in text to indicate that the Fujiwara group was trying to kill the kid in that specific incident. The basis for assuming that the Mikuru group has to do nasty things to meet their objectives is based on the following assumptions...

-Future people want history X to happen
-History X happening is reliant on Future people going into the past at certian events and committing acts that will ensure the future
-Given that their sole concern is for history X, whether or not an action will result in a positive, neutral, or negative outcome short term or long term will not be considered.
-So while good things and neutral things will be done, very negative things will also be done

So bassically the time travelers would have to do anything without regard for morality to ensure their future.

For example, if the Future peoples history did not include Guy Gabaldon talking 1500 Japanese soldiers from surrendering and surviving to return home in WW2, the future people would have to ensure that Guy got shot on the first day.
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True, there is no evidence that Mikuru's group would kill more people than Fujiwara's group. There is evidence, though, that they are willing to mindrape their own agents to keep them from giving away any information that would be inconvenient to spread. Remember my point about there not being a need to refuse to tell people about future events unless said people would prefer to avoid those events?
We'd not see this because of Kyon's limited perspective. It's a logical conclusion. If your sole objective is maintaining your history, you're gonna do nasty things sometimes.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
They can't actually kill Haruhi though. History says they didn't. Maybe.

Hence why they need to use her powers to do so, and the easiest way would be to transfer the powers to Sasaki, who they can control easily. Or so they think.
Where is the actual quote that indicates that anyone in the Anti SOS actually went out and tried to kill time travel kid?
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Old 2009-05-01, 16:57   Link #1935
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Because of what "sneering bastard" wanted; freedom from a pre-determined destiny. This is only possible if time travel does not exist, which in this case, require Haruhi's death, because she is the source of the time travel technology. They can kill scientists and burn research all they like, but as long as Haruhi hasn't been depowered and killed, her desire to cause time travelers to exist would cause it to happen.
Bzzt. They wouldn't need to kill her if she was depowered. If Sasaki had Haruhi's power then they could just have her say "No more time travel" and POOF, there would be no more time travel. She could change the nature of reality so that the equation no longer applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The source equation could be destroyed, this is the advantage of having a time machine. But the ONE equation they can't destroy is in Haruhi's head. Hence, depowering her, killing her, and follow up with a cleansing of all documents leading to time travel in all time and space.
Haruhi wrote the equation at random. She doesn't know what it is. There's absolutely no reason to believe that she would ever write it again. Furthermore, remember the part where the time travelers can mindrape people? Even if Sasaki (once endowed with Haruhi's powers) can't get rid of time travel with a thought, they could just make Haruhi forget the equation for added security.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Nothing suggest this is unique to Mikuru's group; as far as I am concerned, this is standard time travel safety protocol. I would expect no less for something as dangerous as time line protection.

You WANT information to be inconveniently spread? Does timeline chaos sound fun to you? You might as well claim it is a breach of freedoms to force doctors to wash their hands before performing surgery. Safety first.
You asked for where the evidence of Mikuru's group killing people was. Now I will ask: Where is the evidence of Fujiwara's group brainwashing their own people? Because it makes sense? It also makes sense that Mikuru's group sometimes has to kill people.

And you missed the point I was trying to make about the spread of information that would be inconvenient to the time travelers. If the spread of the information about the future amongst present-time allies would be inconvenient for the time travelers, it must be because said allies would try to change the future. Which they would only try if the future the time travelers are trying to bring about is not the desired future of their present-time allies. You cannot trust a time traveler who won't tell you what their time is like.
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Old 2009-05-01, 17:19   Link #1936
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Because of what "sneering bastard" wanted; freedom from a pre-determined destiny. This is only possible if time travel does not exist, which in this case, require Haruhi's death, because she is the source of the time travel technology. They can kill scientists and burn research all they like, but as long as Haruhi hasn't been depowered and killed, her desire to cause time travelers to exist would cause it to happen.
... Again, I'm wondering if people actually bother to read the posts I quote before they respond... heck, the post I quoted was in response to something you said
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Old 2009-05-01, 20:00   Link #1937
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And you missed the point I was trying to make about the spread of information that would be inconvenient to the time travelers. If the spread of the information about the future amongst present-time allies would be inconvenient for the time travelers, it must be because said allies would try to change the future. Which they would only try if the future the time travelers are trying to bring about is not the desired future of their present-time allies. You cannot trust a time traveler who won't tell you what their time is like.
You are assuming the worst than can happen with altered pasts is a few changed lives. You are worrying about "inconveniences". I worry about time-crash, and dimensional collapse.

If you ask me, I wouldn't TRUST a time-traveler who seemed hell bent on being helpful and don't give a damn about the consequences of each and every action he or she take. Mikuru-chan, as an under-qualified young kid, is already pushing believability until we realize she is only here to maintain a stable time loop of her own; that is, adult Mikuru was an important time traveler because of her past with Haruhi, hence the inexperienced young Mikuru was deliberately sent on a task she was ill prepared for.

Quote:
Bzzt. They wouldn't need to kill her if she was depowered. If Sasaki had Haruhi's power then they could just have her say "No more time travel" and POOF, there would be no more time travel. She could change the nature of reality so that the equation no longer applies.
You are only partly right; they could avoid killing Haruhi after she is depowered, but only if they kill Kyon instead. If Kyon can shift power from Haruhi to Sakaki, he can switch it back. They can't take the risk. Either Kyon or Haruhi need to die to ensure Haruhi is permanently depowerd.
Killing Kyon, of course, means they have to kill Yuki too. But by having a deity Sasaki on their side, it should be easy...
Too easy. Before you know it, entire populations of people get wiped out from causality.
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Old 2009-05-01, 20:51   Link #1938
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
*snip*
...This is kinda heavy on conjecture. Really self righteous conjecture.

You realize of course, that they probably aren't going to try to kill Kyon or Haruhi. Given that Sasaki probably wouldn't like that and in this scenario she's just been elevated to not just god hood, but conscious godhood?
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Old 2009-05-01, 21:49   Link #1939
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...This is kinda heavy on conjecture. Really self righteous conjecture.

You realize of course, that they probably aren't going to try to kill Kyon or Haruhi. Given that Sasaki probably wouldn't like that and in this scenario she's just been elevated to not just god hood, but conscious godhood?
Then we are just going around in circles, with the Anti-SOS-dan trying to please every whim of their new god in order to get their own agenda through. That's not why they tried to depowerd Haruhi for.

Seriously, the Anti-SOS-dan are not nice people. They have demands. They are not together because they are friends, like what the SOS-dan is now, they are together for convenience. Sasaki is chosen because she is either easily manipulated, or don't care what they do. Either way, Sasaki is NOT going to be a leader if she gets godhood.
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Old 2009-05-01, 22:22   Link #1940
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Then we are just going around in circles, with the Anti-SOS-dan trying to please every whim of their new god in order to get their own agenda through. That's not why they tried to depowerd Haruhi for.
Well objectively speaking, Sasaki doesn't seem to have to many whims...as of yet.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They are not together because they are friends, like what the SOS-dan is now, they are together for convenience.
In case you haven't noticed, the groups involved with the SOS-dan aren't on board because they're "friends". Even if all the people in the club are friends, that say's nothing about the groups represented.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Seriously, the Anti-SOS-dan are not nice people. They have demands.
None are the groups are likely to actually be nice. The only difference is that the organizations represented in the SOS dan have elected prettier representatives.

The only person in the series of any importance/power who we can be sure of being "good" are Haruhi and Kyon.
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