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Old 2007-11-28, 10:00   Link #781
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Intent and methods are two different things. Fujiwara kidnapped Mikuru, which is hardly nice. It's just like that time Asakura tried to push things into motion with her own hands via violence.

What made them villains is not their intent, but their methods.
Well, Asakura was psycho, while Fujiwara is not... he's just bigoted and sadistic.

But yeah, I see what you mean.
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Old 2007-11-28, 10:14   Link #782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Well, Asakura was psycho, while Fujiwara is not... he's just bigoted and sadistic.

But yeah, I see what you mean.
What made you think Asakura was psycho?

She is a cold machine, but not psychotic at all. Asakura could not understand death, and as such could not understand why someone wouldn't want to die for her cause. She was doing the same thing Fujiwara wanted; to change things.

On that point, some people in the past have pointed out that Asakura could have gotten EXACTLY what she wanted, with far less difficulties, if she tried to seduce Kyon instead of knifing him.
Although knowing Asakura, she probably don't understand seduction. This is just another example of comparing different methods of achieving the same ends.
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Old 2007-11-28, 13:24   Link #783
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
What made you think Asakura was psycho?
Well, she's basically a yandere, intented to be disturbing and creepy.

What with the waving the knife around and talking about killing things, all the while with the same happy smile and cheerful tone of voice.

Brrr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
On that point, some people in the past have pointed out that Asakura could have gotten EXACTLY what she wanted, with far less difficulties, if she tried to seduce Kyon instead of knifing him.
And I don't think he'd say no, either.
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Old 2007-11-28, 20:55   Link #784
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Your are missing my point, I think. The time travelers are obsessed with maintaining the timeline of their pasts to protect themselves, and this forms a chain all the way into the future. So the future is ruled by even more distant futures.

Many time travelers don't really like the arrangement. But they follow the orders anyway because they are afraid of change.
:P who's not getting whose point here?

Although what you say is true, we actually don't know anything about what those required events are. Tanigawa has only made a commitment within the story by letting Kyon know of a predestined event twice in the series: those would be

Spoiler for Novel Spoilers:


What I'm saying is that Tanigawa was under no obligation to make Mikuru a second year, because he's the one creating all the predestined events anyway. Mikuru being a second year likely has some significance outside your explanation.

The original question was "why is Mikuru in second year?" Your answer "she has to be because of the way the time travellers are" works within the context of the story, but doesn't provide any insight on the story in the context of our world, i.e. from the perspective of us as readers. I've suggested that Mikuru's grade could both be a flag to suggest to the readers Mikuru's real age, or a narrative tool allowing Tanigawa to resolve the series after a reasonable two years. Are you going to claim that either of my suggestions are unreasonable?
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Old 2007-11-28, 21:22   Link #785
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
:P who's not getting whose point here?

Although what you say is true, we actually don't know anything about what those required events are. Tanigawa has only made a commitment within the story by letting Kyon know of a predestined event twice in the series: those would be

Spoiler for Novel Spoilers:


What I'm saying is that Tanigawa was under no obligation to make Mikuru a second year, because he's the one creating all the predestined events anyway. Mikuru being a second year likely has some significance outside your explanation.

The original question was "why is Mikuru in second year?" Your answer "she has to be because of the way the time travellers are" works within the context of the story, but doesn't provide any insight on the story in the context of our world, i.e. from the perspective of us as readers. I've suggested that Mikuru's grade could both be a flag to suggest to the readers Mikuru's real age, or a narrative tool allowing Tanigawa to resolve the series after a reasonable two years. Are you going to claim that either of my suggestions are unreasonable?
Not that this is any of my business, but I doubt the series will end after just two years. Mikuru, while more important than, say, Shamisen, still isn't nearly as important as Kyon, Haruhi, or Yuki.

I do agree that she is likely a year older (at most) than the rest of the brigade, though.
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Old 2007-11-28, 21:54   Link #786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
:P who's not getting whose point here?

Although what you say is true, we actually don't know anything about what those required events are. Tanigawa has only made a commitment within the story by letting Kyon know of a predestined event twice in the series: those would be

Spoiler for Novel Spoilers:


What I'm saying is that Tanigawa was under no obligation to make Mikuru a second year, because he's the one creating all the predestined events anyway. Mikuru being a second year likely has some significance outside your explanation.

The original question was "why is Mikuru in second year?" Your answer "she has to be because of the way the time travellers are" works within the context of the story, but doesn't provide any insight on the story in the context of our world, i.e. from the perspective of us as readers. I've suggested that Mikuru's grade could both be a flag to suggest to the readers Mikuru's real age, or a narrative tool allowing Tanigawa to resolve the series after a reasonable two years. Are you going to claim that either of my suggestions are unreasonable?
No, but saying "the author said so" is not any more of an explanation than "Haruhi willed it". We don't know Mikuru's age, and the story made it a point to not tell us when it doesn't really matter. The current portrayal of Time Travellers showed that they are entirely at the mercy of time itself, and being forced to do what they fill they had to do. The entire events of the first story arc was pre-determined, including Snow White and Mikuru's costumes.

I had suggested in the past the possibility that the story would need to end when Mikuru graduates. But your suggestion that this was pre-planned is still dubious, as the author never intended to continue pass the first book until the publisher asked him to write sequels. That was the reason why, in order to write the story long-term, the author had to develop Haruhi's personality so she could mellow out, as well as weakening Yuki's powers.

As for my source, I have the second novel here. The author's Forward made it clear that he did not previously planned for writing more than the Melancholy Book.
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Old 2007-11-28, 22:16   Link #787
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but I'm talking about more than "the author said so". I'm talking about <i>why</i> the author said so. You could also talk about <i>why</i> Mikuru's predestination is important by discussing ideas about how Mikuru being second year will affect the future. The reason I choose to do the former is because I have only a very vague idea of how the story will progress, and don't believe I can accurately speculate about the repercussions of what would happen if Mikuru were to act outside of her predestined role as a second year student.

Tell me something specific. "Mikuru has to be in second year, or else Haruhi might have felt a bit guilty about abusing a fellow first year and therefore such and such would not have happened (complete bullshit I made up, btw)." I was discussing explanations beyond "the story said so" or "the author said so".

As for it being preplanned, I agree that it's somewhat unlikely. However, stuff like the inclusion of a mention of
Spoiler:
in the first book seems to suggest that Tanigawa at least had some ideas in mind for how to continue the story without needing the go-ahead from the publishers. You know, possible shorts or whatever. I doubt that all the planning for the other books came entirely after Melancholy was written.

I'll concede the point as probably being an incidental side effect of his decision as opposed to a primary motivator, though.
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Old 2007-11-29, 13:18   Link #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
What made you think Asakura was psycho?

She is a cold machine, but not psychotic at all. Asakura could not understand death, and as such could not understand why someone wouldn't want to die for her cause. She was doing the same thing Fujiwara wanted; to change things.

On that point, some people in the past have pointed out that Asakura could have gotten EXACTLY what she wanted, with far less difficulties, if she tried to seduce Kyon instead of knifing him.
Although knowing Asakura, she probably don't understand seduction. This is just another example of comparing different methods of achieving the same ends.
Like what would happen if Fujiwara walked up to Kyon and Haruhi and introduced himself, then when Haruhi started to reply he said: "I know, you are Suzumiya Haruhi and he is John Smith."
or
Kuyoh wearing a brouch with the symbol Haruhi drew in middle school, walking up to her, holding it up, and saying:"I am here."
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Old 2007-12-02, 17:19   Link #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Mikuru, while more important than, say, Shamisen, still isn't nearly as important as Kyon, Haruhi, or Yuki.
I would say that Mikuru is as important as Yuki. Mikuru is 'in charge' of the starting of events while Yuki ends the events.

Yuki's importance depends on Mikuru at times, she could be just an observation terminal doing nothing important or productive if Mikuru didn't start anything.
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Old 2007-12-02, 21:04   Link #790
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I would say that Mikuru is as important as Yuki. Mikuru is 'in charge' of the starting of events while Yuki ends the events.

Yuki's importance depends on Mikuru at times, she could be just an observation terminal doing nothing important or productive if Mikuru didn't start anything.
What?

MIKURU starts events?

Doesn't Haruhi start them? Most of the events happened in the first place because Haruhi forced them into it, Haruhi's powers triggered something, or someone wanted to get a reaction from Haruhi/use Haruhi's powers.

Mikuru is only really good for sitting around and being cute, and acting as a portable time travel device.
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Old 2007-12-02, 21:50   Link #791
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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
Like what would happen if Fujiwara walked up to Kyon and Haruhi and introduced himself, then when Haruhi started to reply he said: "I know, you are Suzumiya Haruhi and he is John Smith."
or
Kuyoh wearing a brouch with the symbol Haruhi drew in middle school, walking up to her, holding it up, and saying:"I am here."
The only issue with that, is that Fujiwara's people is still very much afraid of getting themselves wiped out by altering the future too much. Even though he want to change things, Fujiwara isn't suicidal. Making one wrong move, and Haruhi will abandon this universe all together and make a brand new one.

As for Kuyoh, no one knows what her masters think anyway, so we can't predict or explain her actions at all.

Compared to these two, Asakura was the only one who had absolute freedom to do what she want. She is outside the timestream, and can theoretically survive Haruhi's changes. Asakura was also a rogue unit, so she didn't have to act within the approval of her masters.
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Old 2007-12-03, 00:54   Link #792
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I just noticed...the various title screens and novel covers of Haruhi generally have a huge H in either black or red. For example, the novel cover has an giant H in the background that covers a lot of space. I know that H stands for "Haruhi", but wouldn't Japanese people get the wrong idea?

From what I understand H often stands for "ecchi", which translates roughly into "sex". With a bishoujo drawing and a huge black H behind her on the cover, wouldn't some people misunderstand? Esp. parents who find this in their kid's room...who don't know about Haruhi the novel...
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Old 2007-12-03, 01:21   Link #793
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Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
From what I understand H often stands for "ecchi", which translates roughly into "sex". With a bishoujo drawing and a huge black H behind her on the cover, wouldn't some people misunderstand? Esp. parents who find this in their kid's room...who don't know about Haruhi the novel...
"Ecchi" comes from "hentai," which means pervert, not "sex."
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Old 2007-12-03, 06:31   Link #794
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The one person to me that has nothing to risk but oneself in acting out at the moment would be Sasaki. She might well become the one person other than Kyon that can possible possess the entire picture. Unfortunately however, it is unlikely Sasaki will act out unless if she finds a fundamental reason to oppose Suzumiya Haruhi.

If Suzumiya Haruhi does not cause tectonic shift in peoples' behavior or very reactionary social upheaval, thus acting out her seized mandate well, the analyst and observer that is Sasaki will see no reason to become marred in the Haruhi storm. Moreover, Tachibana does not have the power to order Sasaki to oppose Haruhi on her faction's behalf, and that Fujiwara and Kuyoh do have have real unity with Tachibana at all.

The other issue is that Sasaki never believes that she is authorized to speak on the behalf of the people. She speak for and only for herself. This will mean that she does not even think that she is tasked with responding to the Haruhi matter.

I do honestly believe that Sasaki is no pushover if she must act, even be it that she will be full of self-contradiction as she faces the greatest agent of change in her age. Although at this stage, I am wondering if she will be acting not addressing Haruhi, but to the uneasy trio that are currently 'looking' at her.
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Old 2007-12-03, 07:23   Link #795
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
"Ecchi" comes from "hentai," which means pervert, not "sex."
Yeah, I know. But "ecchi" is its own term now, which is often symbolized with an "H" since they are pronounced the same way in Japanese. I'm also pretty sure "ecchi" means sex, as in "ecchi shiyou".

Just wondering...since it is an "interesting" cover design
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Old 2007-12-03, 07:58   Link #796
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What?

MIKURU starts events?

Doesn't Haruhi start them? Most of the events happened in the first place because Haruhi forced them into it, Haruhi's powers triggered something, or someone wanted to get a reaction from Haruhi/use Haruhi's powers.

Mikuru is only really good for sitting around and being cute, and acting as a portable time travel device.
Haruhi doesn't count, because she's the cause of everything and everything happens around her.

Mikuru starts events that are very essential for other events to happen. Well, she doesn't really start them, she's 'forced' into starting them because the past and future requires her to do it. Like, Haruhi wouldn't be Haruhi if Mikuru didn't get Kyon there. Even tiny events that require no time travelling are events that must happen, like accidentally causing some jealousy from Haruhi.

Mikuru is there to make sure things happen, while Yuki makes sure that things don't go out of hand.

Even Itsuki holds a job as important as the both of them. The 3 SOS members are there for because they are all important, no one can be left out.
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Old 2007-12-03, 15:10   Link #797
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Haruhi doesn't count, because she's the cause of everything and everything happens around her.

Mikuru starts events that are very essential for other events to happen. Well, she doesn't really start them, she's 'forced' into starting them because the past and future requires her to do it. Like, Haruhi wouldn't be Haruhi if Mikuru didn't get Kyon there. Even tiny events that require no time travelling are events that must happen, like accidentally causing some jealousy from Haruhi.

Mikuru is there to make sure things happen, while Yuki makes sure that things don't go out of hand.

Even Itsuki holds a job as important as the both of them. The 3 SOS members are there for because they are all important, no one can be left out.
I see what you mean. She's forced into fulfilling the future because of the Novikov Self-consistency Principle.

However, I still don't think the series will end after Mikuru graduates. Who's to say that a) The time travellers can't send someone else with the same purpose, and b) Mikuru can't wait around at college for the rest of them?

By the way, I still wouldn't say that Little Mikuru makes sure the events happen... she doesn't know enough about the past to do so.

Adult Mikuru, on the other hand, well...
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Old 2007-12-04, 03:09   Link #798
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I see what you mean. She's forced into fulfilling the future because of the Novikov Self-consistency Principle.

However, I still don't think the series will end after Mikuru graduates. Who's to say that a) The time travellers can't send someone else with the same purpose, and b) Mikuru can't wait around at college for the rest of them?

By the way, I still wouldn't say that Little Mikuru makes sure the events happen... she doesn't know enough about the past to do so.

Adult Mikuru, on the other hand, well...
I agree that the series wouldn't be limited by Mikuru's time in the school, Haruhi-sama doesn't care about who's graduating. SOS isn't bounded by the school, it transcends even dimensions lol

I didn't really specify which Mikuru is the one starting events because they are all the same in importance. You need Big Mikuru to start events, but you need Mikuru-chan to have big Mikuru. So, Mikuru is important regardless of the time plane that she's on.
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No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
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Old 2007-12-04, 04:46   Link #799
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I agree that the series wouldn't be limited by Mikuru's time in the school, Haruhi-sama doesn't care about who's graduating. SOS isn't bounded by the school, it transcends even dimensions lol

I didn't really specify which Mikuru is the one starting events because they are all the same in importance. You need Big Mikuru to start events, but you need Mikuru-chan to have big Mikuru. So, Mikuru is important regardless of the time plane that she's on.
Then we agree.
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Old 2007-12-05, 14:40   Link #800
Sol Falling
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My consideration that the series will approach resolution with Mikuru's graduation is based on an idea of the SOS Brigade being a tool and context for Haruhi to engage with other people socially. If you consider thematically what Haruhi's all about (the boring world made interesting through doing things with friends), the SOS Brigade and more specifically Kyon were what allowed Haruhi to revert back to a cheerful personality that found the world interesting. You could also say that Haruhi is doing the same for Kyon.

But anyway, we saw from Volume 8 of the novels that Haruhi was starting to interact normally with other people again. The fact that Haruhi is able to make friends and be happy outside the SOS Brigade shows that Haruhi is starting to need it less. I think the story of the series is about Haruhi and Kyon maturing into people who can be faced with a cold and realistic world and still smile, and the way to show that they have finally become those people is by showing that they don't need the SOS Brigade anymore.

But still the friendships formed in it are real, so I don't think Haruhi and Kyon would disband it for no reason; even if you don't need it, a good thing is still a good thing. Therefore, I think that Mikuru's graduation would be a good enough reason for the SOS Brigade to break up and for everybody to continue on, not as an organization, but as simply friends (bringing resolution to the central issue of the story and therefore marking its end).
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