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Old 2006-05-03, 15:25   Link #121
Newtyped
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Well I see your point, but there are some factors to consider:

How is the mine deployed? Does the mine layer stop and place mines or move and place?

If the mine is placed by a 'stationary' vehicle, it would just freefall to the heaviest object. If it was placed while moving, it would continue moving in the direction of the vehicle and be accelerated towards the heaviest object. Objects in space dont fall towards the nearest object, but instead, more towards the heaviest object.

Does the mine have propulsion on its own? Or is it a dumb mine?

A dumb mine without any propulsion would behave like what I said above, but a self propelling mine would be able to station itself in a spot. And only a self propelled mine may be able to move towards approaching targets.
however there are more than one factors.
if there as a slighty large object several miles away, the mine will go to the closet object with the most mass in the area of the effect.
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:26   Link #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
if you are totally still, with no velocity, you would immediately fall towards the object biggest with largest mass.
This is misleading. Falling is simply acceleration. Acceleration is the result of force. You are constantly being forced towards everything single piece of mass in the entire universe. Most of the the forces are really small, and quite a few cancel out. Add up the force vectors, and this is the direction you will accelerate in. This has to do with the ratio of mass and distance. The amount of acceleration could end up being extremely small.
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:30   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
however there are more than one factors.
if there as a slighty large object several miles away, the mine will go to the closet object with the most mass in the area of the effect.
Yes. Since gravitational force is directly proportional to mass, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance, something twice as far but four times as massive will pull you just as hard. Which of course means that the mine will accelerate towards a point between the two objects.
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:32   Link #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
Yes. Since gravitational force is directly proportional to mass, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance, something twice as far but four times as massive will pull you just as hard. Which of course means that the object will accelerate towards a point between the objects.
but of course due to largrange points (yea i kno i bring them up alot lol)
the gravity of the 3rd object (the mine) will most likly be affected by the mass of the 2nd object (the ship) than the mass of the 1st object (planet). Therefore there would prolly be an largrane point interaction with the mine and the ship =/
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:36   Link #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
but of course due to largrange points (yea i kno i bring them up alot lol)
the gravity of the 3rd object (the mine) will most likly be affected by the mass of the 2nd object (the ship) than the mass of the 1st object (planet). Therefore there would prolly be an largrane point interaction with the mine and the ship =/
Yeah, but the ship is so tiny that the mine would just inch towards it, at most. Probably more on the scale on nanometers. This would, however, take it out of its position and mess things up in the future.

Edit: Even by eliminating everything else and assuming only two objects in the universe, the force is still negligible. Yes, they will be pulled towards each other, but it'll happen really slowly. The ship'll have passed by long before it becomes noticeable.
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:39   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
Yeah, but the ship is so tiny that the mine would just inch towards it, at most. Probably more on the scale on nanometers. This would, however, take it out of it's position and mess things up in the future.

Even by eliminating everything else and assuming only two objects in the universe, the force is still negligible. Yes, they will be pulled towards each other, but it'll happen really slowly. The ship'll have passed by long before it becomes noticeable.
what if the mines were really small, small enough that the ship cant detect, and that thered be a greater pull?
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:42   Link #127
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Woah this thread is moving really fast, anyway I said this :

"Objects in space dont fall towards the nearest object, but instead, more towards the heaviest object."

'more' is not a typo, I know objects would fall toward each other, but they would go more towards the heaviest object. Yes relativity is counted in.

An MS of 50 tons is nothing compared to a planet of 5 septillion tons. A mine's path of acceleration would be towards the planet, the MS would have insignificant gravitational effect on it.
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:45   Link #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
what if the mines were really small, small enough that the ship cant detect, and that thered be a greater pull?
Nope, the force is also proportional to the object being pulled, which exactly cancels out the fact that smaller objects require less force to accelerate. This is why everything on Earth falls at the same rate.

Edit: Small mines are, however, less resource intensive, harder to detect, and would require less fuel (well, that's just another kind of resource, but...). Not a bad idea by any means.
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:49   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Woah this thread is moving really fast, anyway I said this :

"Objects in space dont fall towards the nearest object, but instead, more towards the heaviest object."

'more' is not a typo, I know objects would fall toward each other, but they would go more towards the heaviest object. Yes relativity is counted in.

An MS of 50 tons is nothing compared to a planet of 5 septillion tons. A mine's path of acceleration would be towards the planet, the MS would have insignificant gravitational effect on it.
again you fail to counter in the n-problem
if the ms has signifigant mass (i see no reason why not) than objects of insigniffigant mass will move towards it instead of the planet. If you dont know about the n-problem than dont disagree
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:51   Link #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
again you fail to counter in the n-problem
if the ms has signifigant mass (i see no reason why not) than objects of insigniffigant mass will move towards it instead of the planet. If you dont know about the n-problem than dont disagree
When you're talking about gravity, an MS does not have significant mass.
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:52   Link #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
When you're talking about gravity, an MS does not have significant mass.
compared to a small mine it does
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:54   Link #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
again you fail to counter in the n-problem
if the ms has signifigant mass (i see no reason why not) than objects of insigniffigant mass will move towards it instead of the planet. If you dont know about the n-problem than dont disagree
Do you have any idea of the difference in mass between an MS and an entire planet?! That should tell you what is, and what is not, significant.
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Old 2006-05-03, 15:59   Link #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Do you have any idea of the difference in mass between an MS and an entire planet?! That should tell you what is, and what is not, significant.
do you know about the n-problem?
yes or no -.-
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Old 2006-05-03, 16:35   Link #134
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Acceleration due to gravity from an MS in m/s^2 (90 metric tons for a heavy Zaku, according to wikipedia): ~(0.000006)m/ (distance^2)

Therefore, at 1 meter (absurdly close), the mine will drift towards the Zaku at 6 nm/s^2, which is effectively nothing.

Edit: Forgot the squared in the final number.

Last edited by Clarste; 2006-05-03 at 16:45.
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Old 2006-05-03, 16:58   Link #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
Acceleration due to gravity from an MS in m/s^2 (90 metric tons for a heavy Zaku, according to wikipedia): ~(0.000006)m/ (distance^2)

Therefore, at 1 meter (absurdly close), the mine will drift towards the Zaku at 6 nm/s^2, which is effectively nothing.

Edit: Forgot the squared in the final number.
however if they dont detect it, or they stay still near it, it can hit them
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Old 2006-05-03, 17:14   Link #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
however if they dont detect it, or they stay still near it, it can hit them
Nevermind, while I check my numbers.

Edit: It looks like it would take 3.84 minutes for the mine to reach the MS from 1 meter away, entirely from gravity. Pretty short actually.

Starting at 50 meters (more reasonable, ie: not absurdly close), 181 days. I guess that's the power of the inverse square law in action.

Last edited by Clarste; 2006-05-03 at 17:39.
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Old 2006-05-03, 18:21   Link #137
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But I fail to see why one would use the gravity of an object to attract mines

seamines use magnetism to pull themselves towards a target
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Old 2006-05-03, 18:23   Link #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ
But I fail to see why one would use the gravity of an object to attract mines

seamines use magnetism to pull themselves towards a target
gravitie is a small factor
i would also recomend magnetics yea
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Old 2006-05-03, 18:30   Link #139
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Magnetics are for dumb mines.

If you remember from Vandread, the Tarok mines were smart. But there were A LOT of them.
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Old 2006-05-04, 00:05   Link #140
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Modern mines are self-propelled. Anything else is useless.

They should seek targets via heat signature which is passive and will not alert the operators.

The 'drift' due to the effects of gravity to negligable since the mines are tactically useful for the duration of a campaign or war, after which they should be deactivated and removed.

Mines WILL NOT stop a determined opponent. As I have said, they are not showstoppers. They merely delay or pin down the enemy to be mop up later.
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