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Old 2013-11-27, 23:28   Link #521
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelis View Post
SEED was and is fun, I'll admit. It's the epitome of modern take on Gundam and I dare say it got more anime fans than 00. Maybe cause it's the fairy tale of the Gundam universe with high performance machines, very likeable pretty characters who are perfect in every way and accompanied by catchy music. Destiny was also the same with high performance machines, very unlikeable pretty characters who are imperfect in every way and accompanied by catchy music.

What I LOVED about Destiny was, the main character was booted and the previous main character was reinstated. Imagine if in Zeta, Kamille that whiny bitch was sidelined in favour of Amuro Ray, holy cow, it'll be the perfect sequel. And in ZZ, Amuro returns and ends it in CCA. Or so you thought but he made a comeback and hijacked the Unicorn later on. Hell, Amuro also tested the Alex Gundam, was involved in the stopping of GP02, went to Earth to participate in 08th MS Team, went back to space to join the Alpha Task Force and had a hand in Titans Trial Test team. That's how UC should be.
Eh, I couldn't really get behind many of the characters (though, they were pretty, and I did love the music). As I mentioned before (I think), Athrun and Cagalli were a couple that weren't so bad as they came off as more realistic overall, though Destiny ended up killing most of it (Athrun simply repeating his SEED performance overall while Cagalli just seemed to lose most of what made her cool in SEED).

I can't quite remember why they decided to sideline Shinn as the main character though and, at first, he seemed to be okay, especially with Athrun there as a mentor of sorts, considering his own experiences. It was really only AFTER Kira was put back into the spotlight did Shinn's character suddenly take a total nosedive, and even more so after Athrun leaves ZAFT again, leaving no one to truly keep Shinn open-minded about things, letting Rey and Dullindal easily manipulate him like a puppet.

The main problem with your assessment on comparing Shinn and Kamille, at least. is that, unlike Shinn (most of the time), Kamille may start out whiny, immature, stubborn, insubordinate, etc, BUT he actually learns and develops from his experiences as the series progresses to the point where he actually becomes respectable and you DO end up rooting for him in the end. It's why he fits as the new main character (and even compared to Amuro by Char) since Amuro went through similar, yet also different, experiences that developed him in similar ways.
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Old 2013-11-27, 23:33   Link #522
Aurelis
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
Eh, I couldn't really get behind many of the characters (though, they were pretty, and I did love the music). As I mentioned before (I think), Athrun and Cagalli were a couple that weren't so bad as they came off as more realistic overall, though Destiny ended up killing most of it (Athrun simply repeating his SEED performance overall while Cagalli just seemed to lose most of what made her cool in SEED).

I can't quite remember why they decided to sideline Shinn as the main character though and, at first, he seemed to be okay, especially with Athrun there as a mentor of sorts, considering his own experiences. It was really only AFTER Kira was put back into the spotlight did Shinn's character suddenly take a total nosedive, and even more so after Athrun leaves ZAFT again, leaving no one to truly keep Shinn open-minded about things, letting Rey and Dullindal easily manipulate him like a puppet.

The main problem with your assessment on comparing Shinn and Kamille, at least. is that, unlike Shinn (most of the time), Kamille may start out whiny, immature, stubborn, insubordinate, etc, BUT he actually learns and develops from his experiences as the series progresses to the point where he actually becomes respectable and you DO end up rooting for him in the end. It's why he fits as the new main character (and even compared to Amuro by Char) since Amuro went through similar, yet also different, experiences that developed him in similar ways.
Haha, yes it would be ridiculous to have Amuro return as main character. But I agree with your point about Kamille developing through the series, which was not the case for Shinn.

I felt that he got too absorbed in his revenge that he became, as you said, a puppet. Athrun and Cagalli weren't decisive in the second season, leading to dismaying performances.

SEED and Destiny started something which I didn't quite agree with though and that was taking the effort to spare the enemy. I'm not saying violence is the answer but to go all the way to not kill the enemy, seemed too idealistic.
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Old 2013-11-27, 23:41   Link #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelis View Post
I'm not saying violence is the answer but to go all the way to not kill the enemy, seemed too idealistic.
Well, I think that is the point, but it was never a central message for SEED, but rather, more of a defining trait for Kira specifically. It was never used as the ultimate solution, and its limitations were shown.

All in all, I think SEED/Destiny is very tame in this regard.
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Old 2013-11-28, 00:03   Link #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelis View Post
SEED and Destiny started something which I didn't quite agree with though and that was taking the effort to spare the enemy. I'm not saying violence is the answer but to go all the way to not kill the enemy, seemed too idealistic.
It's why I consider The 08th MS Team to be the anti-thesis to SEED/SEED Destiny. Shiro became equally naively idealistic as Kira did, but he rarely ever succeeded, and the times he did, they were very bittersweet at best. While it did fail sometimes in SEED/SEED Destiny...I dunno...it didn't really feel like it had much (long-lasting) impact/consequences on those around them, you know?


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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Well, I think that is the point, but it was never a central message for SEED, but rather, more of a defining trait for Kira specifically. It was never used as the ultimate solution, and its limitations were shown.

All in all, I think SEED/Destiny is very tame in this regard.
Yeah, it was mostly Kira that tried to go all the way with not killing anyone (or at least not showing anyone actually die from his actions). At least in SEED, Athrun, Dearka, Cagalli, and others didn't have any qualms about killing their targets (I forget if SEED Destiny had any other characters outright kill anyone.) They even avoided having Kira deal any finishing blows to any of the Druggies, instead having Athrun kill 1 and Yzak kill the other 2 (or just 1 in the Special Edition as, IIRC, Dearka destroys the Raider rather than Yzak doing it with the Buster's gun).
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Old 2013-11-28, 00:29   Link #525
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The reuse of scenes in SEED/GSD killed it for me. Storyline was good.

00 was my favorite.
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Old 2013-11-28, 00:34   Link #526
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Build is pretty fun to watch, not too heavy on plot but more on actions and suits. I kinda need something light to dilute all the heavy stuff from previous series.
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Old 2013-11-28, 01:18   Link #527
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Originally Posted by kk2extreme View Post
Build is pretty fun to watch, not too heavy on plot but more on actions and suits. I kinda need something light to dilute all the heavy stuff from previous series.
The previews definitely got a bit of hate simply because of how it looked (so did AGE and, personally, I enjoyed the first 2/3 of it), but I think it's overall better than what people give it credit for. It's really just a fun show with fun "vs. matches" between various (custom) MS/MA of different eras, but without having to worry about all the "realistic" stuff like specs and such. Just overall fun and it doesn't try to hide it.

I do love the references made to various series in it too, and even having Ramba Ral's original VA doing "Mr. Ral's" voice, lol.
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Old 2014-02-09, 12:29   Link #528
eternalmetal
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In order:

Zeta Gundam
Original
08th MS Team
ZZ Gundam
Gundam 00
0080 War in the Pocket
Gundam SEED
CCA
Turn A Gundam
Gundam Build Fighters
G Gundam (from what ive seen)
Gundam Wing

Still watching 0083: Stardust Memory and have yet to watch After War Gundam X, Victory Gundam, Gundam F91, AGE, and am waiting until Unicorn finishes so I can watch it in one go (since the first ep showed tons of promise).

I never understood how people can like Gundam Wing. It's definitely the worst Gundam yet, completely riddled with plot holes, bad politics, and overpowered mechs. I swear the only people who like this are the ones who watched it growing up when it was on Toonami and simply have a nostalgic attachment to it.
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Old 2014-02-09, 16:03   Link #529
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Originally Posted by eternalmetal View Post
I never understood how people can like Gundam Wing. It's definitely the worst Gundam yet, completely riddled with plot holes, bad politics, and overpowered mechs. I swear the only people who like this are the ones who watched it growing up when it was on Toonami and simply have a nostalgic attachment to it.
We love it because it has the greatest music in anime history. A soundtrack to trump all soundtracks.
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Old 2014-02-09, 16:05   Link #530
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Originally Posted by eternalmetal View Post
I never understood how people can like Gundam Wing. It's definitely the worst Gundam yet, completely riddled with plot holes, bad politics, and overpowered mechs. I swear the only people who like this are the ones who watched it growing up when it was on Toonami and simply have a nostalgic attachment to it.
Yeah, out of Wing, SEED/SEED Destiny, latter 00, and the last 1/3 of AGE, it was mostly just music and some MS designs that I liked. Characters and plot development left much to be desired for me.
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Old 2014-02-09, 16:10   Link #531
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I love Wing. Sure it was my first Gundam and responsible for getting me back into anime, but after I rewatch it recently, I like it even more. To me is the series that has the best use of the "are we really the good guys?" plot line. When 00 tried to do it, they immediately copped out.
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Old 2014-02-09, 16:27   Link #532
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Originally Posted by Galaxian View Post
I love Wing. Sure it was my first Gundam and responsible for getting me back into anime, but after I rewatch it recently, I like it even more. To me is the series that has the best use of the "are we really the good guys?" plot line. When 00 tried to do it, they immediately copped out.
Much of that concept was borrowed from the Universal Century era (Federation and Zeon largely).
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"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
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Old 2014-02-09, 16:31   Link #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternalmetal View Post
In order:

Zeta Gundam
Original
08th MS Team
ZZ Gundam
Gundam 00
0080 War in the Pocket
Gundam SEED
CCA
Turn A Gundam
Gundam Build Fighters
G Gundam (from what ive seen)
Gundam Wing

Still watching 0083: Stardust Memory and have yet to watch After War Gundam X, Victory Gundam, Gundam F91, AGE, and am waiting until Unicorn finishes so I can watch it in one go (since the first ep showed tons of promise).

I never understood how people can like Gundam Wing. It's definitely the worst Gundam yet, completely riddled with plot holes, bad politics, and overpowered mechs. I swear the only people who like this are the ones who watched it growing up when it was on Toonami and simply have a nostalgic attachment to it.
Overpowered MS in Gundam Wing? The ones I bolded in your list has even more overpowered MS than Gundam Wing...
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Old 2014-02-09, 16:39   Link #534
Galaxian
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
Much of that concept was borrowed from the Universal Century era (Federation and Zeon largely).
But I feel Wing did it better. Showing the main characters doing things that were gray, if not downright evil, before they started to question themselves, having the those they were fighting for turn their backs to then, and being left virtually powerless and helpless in a world that they help turn upside down. The first two acts of Gundam Wing is some of the best I've seen in anime and a lot of that is because during that part there is no clear answer to the question of whether their side is truly right or not.

Then act 3 comes in with people who want to destroy the Earth and it becomes clear to them that they are the good guys. Act 3 is my least favorite part of Wing, but the first two more than makes up for it.
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Old 2014-02-09, 16:54   Link #535
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Overpowered MS in Gundam Wing? The ones I bolded in your list has even more overpowered MS than Gundam Wing...
I believe he means overpowered when compared to most other (non-Gundam) MS in the same series, which is quite true.

Even SEED lasted at least until Kira got the (Strike) Freedom. Until those times, battles were actually not THAT imbalanced. (Kira even having trouble against MS like the ZnO and BuCUE with the Strike and such.)



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Originally Posted by Galaxian View Post
But I feel Wing did it better. Showing the main characters doing things that were gray, if not downright evil, before they started to question themselves, having the those they were fighting for turn their backs to then, and being left virtually powerless and helpless in a world that they help turn upside down. The first two acts of Gundam Wing is some of the best I've seen in anime and a lot of that is because during that part there is no clear answer to the question of whether their side is truly right or not.

Then act 3 comes in with people who want to destroy the Earth and it becomes clear to them that they are the good guys. Act 3 is my least favorite part of Wing, but the first two more than makes up for it.
Again, borrowed from UC, which is also a much more "real war" story, even more so with the OVAs (08th MS Team, 0080, and 0083 really showing such things).

Wing also comes off as "better" really because the entire series is focused on a very small number of people, officially, only over the course of 1 1/2 conflicts. whereas the UC era shifts from one group to another pretty much every series and the era as a whole, from 0079 to 0153, is one large story rather than it being one story for the entire era, so you also get many different points of view, each one with their own credibility, as opposed to one "main" one that you're "supposed to" root for.
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Old 2014-02-09, 17:06   Link #536
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I've only seen a small portion of the UC series, but I've never seen them without something to protect, whether it just their friends or crew. During the second of of Wing, the pilots lose everything. Their Gundam, their support, even their leaders. They are left to wonder who and how they should fight next, or if they should even continue fighting at all, some of them even gets shots at seemingly normal lives away from the battle field.

A lot of people complain that Wing is too "political", but I'm fine with that two, the power-struggle in Wing's world politics is just as gray as the main pilot's morale.

Also, is UC (which encompasses several series, OVAs, and movies) versus Wing which is one series and one movie. I would much rather stick with Wing.
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Old 2014-02-09, 17:16   Link #537
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Originally Posted by Galaxian View Post
I've only seen a small portion of the UC series, but I've never seen them without something to protect, whether it just their friends or crew. During the second of of Wing, the pilots lose everything. Their Gundam, their support, even their leaders. They are left to wonder who and how they should fight next, or if they should even continue fighting at all, some of them even gets shots at seemingly normal lives away from the battle field.

A lot of people complain that Wing is too "political", but I'm fine with that two, the power-struggle in Wing's world politics is just as gray as the main pilot's morale.

Also, is UC (which encompasses several series, OVAs, and movies) versus Wing which is one series and one movie. I would much rather stick with Wing.
Amuro lost it post-One Year War through halfway through Zeta Gundam (so 7 years at least). The Argama crew had pretty much no real support throughout ZZ (up to a year, given much of the AEUG was being re-absorbed into the Federation now that the Titans were all but finished, while the rest of the leadership decided to stay out of Neo Zeon's way.

Wing isn't that political really as opposed to idealistic ("total pacifism", "justice", "perfect warriors", etc.). UC has a bit of both; sometimes separate, sometimes intertwined.
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"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
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Old 2014-02-09, 17:26   Link #538
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
Amuro lost it post-One Year War through halfway through Zeta Gundam (so 7 years at least). The Argama crew had pretty much no real support throughout ZZ (up to a year, given much of the AEUG was being re-absorbed into the Federation now that the Titans were all but finished, while the rest of the leadership decided to stay out of Neo Zeon's way.

Wing isn't that political really as opposed to idealistic ("total pacifism", "justice", "perfect warriors", etc.). UC has a bit of both; sometimes separate, sometimes intertwined.
Amauro still had his family during that point and the Argama crew were still together. During the 2nd act of Wing the pilots were completely on their own, they didn't have each other to rely on. Sure they might have bump with one another during it, but they were not a team, the only support they really had were their respective scientist, but at that point they were all captured leaving the 5 of them alone to figure out what to do next by themselves. Especially Heero, Trowa, and Duo had nothing at all during that part. No families, not allies, no support.

Wing's concept pacifism during the TV show is not completely idealistic, as even the Sanc Kingdom kept mobile suits ready for when their ready. I had more problems with the one in Endless Waltz which seemed to imply (at least to me) a complete de-militarization of both Earth and the colonies.

I don't believe that the concept of Justice play much of a part in Wing. There's only Wufei's quasi-"might makes right" mentality and Heero's thing with the Noventa Family, but that's about it on that front.
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Old 2014-02-09, 17:36   Link #539
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Amauro still had his family during that point and the Argama crew were still together. During the 2nd act of Wing the pilots were completely on their own, they didn't have each other to rely on. Sure they might have bump with one another during it, but they were not a team, the only support they really had were their respective scientist, but at that point they were all captured leaving the 5 of them alone to figure out what to do next by themselves. Especially Heero, Trowa, and Duo had nothing at all during that part. No families, not allies, no support.

Wing's concept pacifism during the TV show is not completely idealistic, as even the Sanc Kingdom kept mobile suits ready for when their ready. I had more problems with the one in Endless Waltz which seemed to imply (at least to me) a complete de-militarization of both Earth and the colonies.

I don't believe that the concept of Justice play much of a part in Wing. There's only Wufei's quasi-"might makes right" mentality and Heero's thing with the Noventa Family, but that's about it on that front.
Amuro was estranged from his mother (only saw her once in MSG) and his father neglected him pretty much, focused entirely on Project V (then suffered brain damage from oxygen deprivation after being sucked out of the colony when Zeon attacked Side 7 at the beginning), so he pretty much had no one and was living alone, and if that wasn't bad enough, was also surrounded by "servants" who were actually Federation watchdogs meant to keep an eye on him due to being a Newtype.

The Sanc Kingdom only had defenses on standby due to Noin NOT believing completely in Relena's "total pacifism" ideals and building up those defenses without her knowing. Otherwise, Relena's intention was to have absolutely no weapons, even if it left the Sanc Kingdom as a huge target beginning to be trampled.
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"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
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Old 2014-02-09, 17:44   Link #540
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
Amuro was estranged from his mother (only saw her once in MSG) and his father neglected him pretty much, focused entirely on Project V (then suffered brain damage from oxygen deprivation after being sucked out of the colony when Zeon attacked Side 7 at the beginning), so he pretty much had no one and was living alone, and if that wasn't bad enough, was also surrounded by "servants" who were actually Federation watchdogs meant to keep an eye on him due to being a Newtype.
Having something is better than having nothing at all, it was during a period of (superficial) peace, and Amauro wasn't betrayed by everyone he had tried to protect. He just wasn't as cut-off as the Wing pilots during the second act.


Quote:
The Sanc Kingdom only had defenses on standby due to Noin NOT believing completely in Relena's "total pacifism" ideals and building up those defenses without her knowing. Otherwise, Relena's intention was to have absolutely no weapons, even if it left the Sanc Kingdom as a huge target beginning to be trampled.
Still shows that it wasn't completely idealistic. It was only Relena's thinking, but other had a more realistic view because Noin couldn't have done all that by herself. And I still prefer Relena's idealistic concept of pacifism over Marina's from 00. At least Relena treated her as a political matter, what did Marina do? Radio advertisement? (Btw, loved 00 first half, greatly disliked the second half, hated the movie)
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