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Old 2008-05-30, 00:13   Link #641
UltimaWolf
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Thank you both for the advice, I'll just stay her friend until she decides on whats best for her and what she needs to do.
Today she seemed closer to her old self, though I didn't have much time to talk to her today.
Though if anyone else has any thoughts I'd take them.
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Old 2008-05-30, 10:54   Link #642
Lonestar9
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[QUOTE=UltimaWolf;1620957]Ok, Normally I don't do this sorta thing, but this is kinda a little different.

So, I have known this girl at work for about 3 months, and about a month ago(maybe a little less)I started to get to know her alot better and we have been going to lunch everyday(and when I have been off I have came there and gone with her) and on the weekends hanging out at theatres,etc.
She'll be 21 soon, so we are both really close age-wise, but there is only one problem...She has a almost 2 year old son...and "was" engaged.
Now, I say "was" because before 2 weeks ago, he was living 100+so miles away from here while shes been living with her mom and long story short, he treats her like shit. And from talking to me(started about a month ago) I told her that she shouldn't be treated that way and she broke it off.
Now first off, I never told her to personally break it off, but just basicly told her that she shouldn't be treated that way and to talk it out,etc, and after awhile she talked to him and broke it off all on her own. and for the first two weeks after that things were great between us, she told me she never had good experiences with boyfriends before they always treated her bad, etc and that I was the first to make her feel this way, special, and that she mattered.

Dealing with kids and ex's is very tough, trust me on this one as I've done it, lol...but not at such an early age as yourself. Just from what I read, she's probably conflicted, and certainly letting her ex move in with them, well, that show's she's either not over him or she wants to see if he will somehow mature and become a better bf/dad. The best advice i'd give, is to keep your options way, way open...it should be fine to be with her as a friend, but view her as such, and try to date others, and don't try to date her unless your sure she's moved on from her ex.
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Old 2008-05-30, 19:44   Link #643
raikage
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(Assuming the other guy doesn't get his act together and you two start dating)

Don't think about the kid. Seriously.
You're dating her, not her child. And from the standpoint of her raising her son (admittedly this tends to apply to older children) you don't want to introduce your kid to "new daddy" every time a could-be boyfriend comes along.

Or, on the flip side, what if you and the son bond, and things don't work out between you and her?

Better to just not meet her son at all, til things get serious.
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Old 2008-05-31, 00:34   Link #644
UltimaWolf
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^ Yeah I haven't really met her son at all except for a few seconds when they all came up to work one time, and from the pictures she has of him. But I understand what you're saying, I just don't know exactly what to do, if I should be trying and being really nice to her to get her away from him( He honestly is a asshole) or just not try and see how things work out. I'm kinda torn between the two, I don't want to get close to her to just find out she still loves him, or on the other-half not be there for her and push her back to him.
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Old 2008-05-31, 00:56   Link #645
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by UltimaWolf View Post
^ Yeah I haven't really met her son at all except for a few seconds when they all came up to work one time, and from the pictures she has of him. But I understand what you're saying, I just don't know exactly what to do, if I should be trying and being really nice to her to get her away from him( He honestly is a asshole) or just not try and see how things work out. I'm kinda torn between the two, I don't want to get close to her to just find out she still loves him, or on the other-half not be there for her and push her back to him.
The problem is that even if she does fall completely for you, the other man will still be in your life to even a small extent. After all, that man is her son's biological father. Even assuming that the father didn't want to be involved and that the mother didn't want him to be involved, it's possible that the son would seek him out or want to know more about it.

That's a really messy situation. I agree that you should think more about her than her son, but if it were me I think that'd be bugging me big time. Having to deal with a child at this age? I'd also consider dealing with a step-child to be one of the more difficult child-rearing situations. It doesn't have to be, of course. Good luck either way, and keep us updated on how it plays out if you feel open enough to share. I admire your courage in that despite the situation you're still even considering a relationship with her. It makes me realize that were I placed under a similar situation, I'd have a lot less respect for what my reaction might be compared to how you're handling it.
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Old 2008-05-31, 02:14   Link #646
UltimaWolf
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Thank you Ledgem, I've always respected you're opinions and was hoping you'd post here hehe. Yeah I'll update on what happens, but I don't think I'll be seeing her this weekend so it'll be atleast monday if anything happens.
Yeah I know the son thing isn't the best, I really never planned on having one so soon, and espicially one that isn't even mine. I originally didn't even know she had a son or was engaged until awhile of knowing her, when it did I kinda backed off since I kinda liked her and when I knew she was engaged I didn't want to start anything, but after a few days of being 'distant' she came up to me and asked what was wrong, I told her and then she explained it wasn't working out, he didn't even live here, and the way he treats her, etc.

The ironic thing is that my best friend is in a similar(but worse) situation than me, he's 20 and dating(for the past 5-6months) a woman that is 27 with two kids, ones 8 other is 6(or about that) and she recently had a divorce with their father. I used to always tease him about his situation before it sorta happened to me. x-x You know the "I'd never do that" "Shes just using you" etc etc.

I guess I'll just see how it goes, I'll let you know if anything happens.
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Old 2008-05-31, 02:48   Link #647
Ledgem
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I'm quite flattered to hear that. I'd really wanted to give you encouragement, and after taking a bit more time to passively think it over I'll give you a few more thoughts that you've probably already considered.

What makes this situation difficult is that there are a number of factors that could potentially put more stress on your relationship with her than other relationships, and some of those factors could even come between the two of you. The idea that there's another guy in her life and that there's a child seem like obvious obstacles and potential setbacks, but there are more implications to it than that.

The child is a good starting point. How this will impact the two of you depends on the child (obvious) and also on the mother. I can remember one woman's opinion as it struck me as something I'd never thought of. She was nearing the end of her pregnancy, but she stated that her priorities were basically her parents first, because they were irreplaceable, her child second, and her husband third. I don't believe that every woman feels that way, but I certainly felt bad for her husband... although I'd heard his opinion on women as well, and let's just say that I don't envy either of them, although they seemed content with each other The reason I bring it up is because it might be insightful. I'd always presumed that parents would work together to raise children; there was no prioritizing of relationships because to even consider one member of the family above another would be detrimental to the family unit. Perhaps that's a bit idealistic.

If the mother has a priority scheme like that, it could be trouble down the road. In the worst-case scenario you'd end up hurt, and likely resenting her child. It'd be a rather bad situation for everyone involved. If she's the type who would accept you and not place you above her child or vice versa then you're in the clear. She's probably rather saintly if that's the case.

The child's acceptance of you, and your acceptance of the child would be another issue. Do you want children of your own? Would you be able to raise a child that isn't yours along with your own biological children without playing favorites? You and I are in our early 20's - we probably can't answer that question right now, but it's something to consider. This consideration is more or less a "business" consideration of the relationship, and examining relationships from a business/strategic viewpoint rather than a personal/emotional one is something I don't really like. I'd prioritize it less highly than your feeling for her and the feelings that you're getting back.

The ex-husband/fiancee is another issue with multiple considerations. The obvious one is that, if he's an asshole (or at least, you clearly don't like him) do you want to have him linked to your life like that? He won't necessarily be involved heavily in your life - he may not be involved at all, actually, but it's a possibility. Will it ever really bother you that the lady had feelings for him and had a child with him? Will you resent the child because of the father?

Those are a lot of considerations and questions that you probably can't answer at this point, and you don't have to. If you've found a solid woman who you really love and can get along with then the conditions around her aren't as important. See if she wants to continue with you, and if she does, keep at it. As you get to know her better you'll learn more about her life. Most normal relationships experience the "next step" as meeting each other's parents and family members and evaluating compatibility, you'll simply evaluate her child (and perhaps her ex, if he's involved) when the time comes. Keep the considerations and questions in mind, and see how it goes.

At the end of the day, the circumstances aren't important. What do you want from the relationship? My own personal belief is that relationships should be a source of joy and support for both people involved. The circumstances around this girl seem like they'd be drawbacks, but if the relationship matches your expectations even in spite them and you and she are happy, then those circumstances do not matter: it's a good relationship, and good relationships are hard to come by and should be treasured. Just be true to yourself and be in touch with your feelings. If you begin to feel that the relationship is a drag on your life or that it isn't matching your expectations, you'll know that it's time to move on. For now, it's probably best to treat those circumstances as though they were the shadows of dragons lurking around your princess. You'll be able to tell if they're really threats as you get closer.
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Old 2008-05-31, 03:20   Link #648
UltimaWolf
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Yeah, The son being the most important thing to her is true, atleast at the moment. Shes stated several times that the only good thing he gave her was the most important thing in her life, that may not always be true and I could be equal, but it could also never happen like you have said, So I do understand that, it is tricky, and it being not mine makes it all the more difficult. You are right about the resentment thing I never thought about it until you brought it up and I have no idea if I would ever resent him(I know that must sound bad but I have no idea what the future holds) or not. I'd hope that I wouldn't, and that I could grow to love him.(If I continue with this relationship of course)

The part with her fiance is tricky aswell, I have never personally met him, all I get is from her and her mom(what little I spoke to her) but her talking about him is a often conversation between us, what he's done to her and how he treated her, etc. The closest I got besides that is when me and her and some of my friends went to the movies(before he moved up here) and he called her, she left to answer it and after a few minutes she returned crying, I asked her what happened, and from what she said, he basicly thought she was at some club with some guy(from hearing sounds in the background aka movie) cheating on him, and that shes a terrible mom for leaving their son home alone and that she shouldn't even be out this late anyways.(It was the night movie, about 10-ish pm) Even though of course he'd be asleep by now in the first place, but it still hurt her alot and she was upset the rest of the movie.
So from what I know from hearing her he does seem to be a jerk, she also told me that the only reason she even accepted the engagement was because of shock and that she was already pregant at the time with her son, so she thought she had no other choice basicly.

Ah well, I'll just have to see how it goes, if she seems to start to like him more, or if she becomes closer to me.
I really appreciate you're thoughts Ledgem. Thank you.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:25   Link #649
UltimaWolf
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I think I killed this topic.
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:26   Link #650
harmonious
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Originally Posted by UltimaWolf View Post

So from what I know from hearing her he does seem to be a jerk, she also told me that the only reason she even accepted the engagement was because of shock and that she was already pregant at the time with her son, so she thought she had no other choice basicly.

Ah well, I'll just have to see how it goes, if she seems to start to like him more, or if she becomes closer to me.
I really appreciate you're thoughts Ledgem. Thank you.
She was having sex with a guy she clearly would not consider marrying? Why would someone even be in such a relationship?
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:39   Link #651
oompa loompa
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She was having sex with a guy she clearly would not consider marrying? Why would someone even be in such a relationship?
Sex isnt a pretense for marriage.. The fact that they were having sex does not in any way mean that they were in a very 'serious' relationship in the first place. I'm sure its more complicated than that. Things just might not have turned out the way she wanted.
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:52   Link #652
harmonious
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Sex isnt a pretense for marriage.. The fact that they were having sex does not in any way mean that they were in a very 'serious' relationship in the first place. I'm sure its more complicated than that. Things just might not have turned out the way she wanted.
I asked why would someone be in that kind of relationship. It really isn't that complicated. She had sex in a not-so-serious relationship (key words for someone she doesn't love) which resulted in pregnancy, then she got engaged because she thought she had to. What she did doesn't bode well for her common sense.
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Old 2008-07-21, 13:08   Link #653
UltimaWolf
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Sex is very common nowadays, not saying its right or makes sense but it happens. But about her, she was with him for about a total of 3 years, and only about 1 1/2 of that was before she got pregnant so it wasn't like she just met him or anything, at the time they both partied, etc it wasn't until she did get pregnant and took a look at her life did she try to turn it around and stop all that stuff, but he didn't, even after he was born. So she basicly had to raise him herself half the time because he would be hungover,passed out or actually at work.
On top of that was the way he kept treating her, she would bring up that she would have to leave him or somthing like that he would say he would change and stop, he would for about a couple of weeks then go back to doing the same junk. So when she did finally move up here it gave her a different outlook on life, that she really didn't need him and that she 'could' take care of her son and herself on her own for the time being.
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Old 2008-07-21, 14:15   Link #654
harmonious
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Sex is very common nowadays, not saying its right or makes sense but it happens. But about her, she was with him for about a total of 3 years, and only about 1 1/2 of that was before she got pregnant so it wasn't like she just met him or anything, at the time they both partied, etc it wasn't until she did get pregnant and took a look at her life did she try to turn it around and stop all that stuff, but he didn't, even after he was born. So she basicly had to raise him herself half the time because he would be hungover,passed out or actually at work.

On top of that was the way he kept treating her, she would bring up that she would have to leave him or somthing like that he would say he would change and stop, he would for about a couple of weeks then go back to doing the same junk. So when she did finally move up here it gave her a different outlook on life, that she really didn't need him and that she 'could' take care of her son and herself on her own for the time being.
So she got a dose of harsh reality. Unless they learn otherwise, people generally have the mentality that it can't happen them or that they are invincible.

I think its best to talk with her and casually ask her what is up with her ex-fiance and how's it going now that he is back in town. You seem to be in a close enough relationship with her that she confides in you with that part of her life.

I will also point out that if you want to be apart of her life as her boyfriend, you need to make a move. There are two types of intimate relationships you can have with her: 'snuggle buddy' or boyfriend. You definitely don't want to end up as her snuggle buddy.

A snuggle buddy is someone who is intimate enough to share their life's details with and hang out with; close enough to almost seem like a lover, but never close enough to go beyond it. It is the type of person that a girl always says "I wish I had a boyfriend like you", but they stupidly turn their back on you when it comes to that kind of relationship. You would see her date guy after guy and she would never look your way. Once you become one, it is really hard to get out of it.

Frankly the snuggle buddy type relationships dumbfounds me. Women will get these even if they have a boyfriend, it is practically cheating, but they don't see it that way and many boyfriends are none-the-wiser about it. It is one of the reasons I recommend both sides of a relationship to cut off all friendships of the opposite sex.
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Old 2008-07-22, 16:52   Link #655
Mystique
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I will also point out that if you want to be apart of her life as her boyfriend, you need to make a move. There are two types of intimate relationships you can have with her: 'snuggle buddy' or boyfriend. You definitely don't want to end up as her snuggle buddy.

A snuggle buddy is someone who is intimate enough to share their life's details with and hang out with; close enough to almost seem like a lover, but never close enough to go beyond it. It is the type of person that a girl always says "I wish I had a boyfriend like you", but they stupidly turn their back on you when it comes to that kind of relationship. You would see her date guy after guy and she would never look your way. Once you become one, it is really hard to get out of it.
Is that what they're calling it nowadays, figured it was 'Nice-guy' syndrome.
But yes, once you do get to our hearts, it's hard for us to think of you lot sexually, simply cause you prove to be a guy who's not an arrogant insensitive prick.
As for the girls that continue to date them, get dumped and then complain to you, do yourselves a favour and drop the girl and move on yourselves.
(After you tell her that she should respect herself more and stop going out with jerks)
Quote:
Frankly the snuggle buddy type relationships dumbfounds me. Women will get these even if they have a boyfriend, it is practically cheating, but they don't see it that way and many boyfriends are none-the-wiser about it.
uuuh.... cheating.... okay, you may wanna clear that up for me as to 'how' if there's no physical intimacy involved.
Quote:
It is one of the reasons I recommend both sides of a relationship to cut off all friendships of the opposite sex.
I can't think of any reply to that, that wouldn't cut into you as a person, that sounds like a personal conclusion based off bad personal experiences, so I'll keep quiet on that note.

However:
With the whole share life details with and hang out with (depends on how often) thing, i'm assuming you've never had close friends of the opp sex who are close enough to feel like sisters.
That's what does (contary to popular belief) stop a couple from going further than trusting and supporting each other, even if sexual tension arose at some point, it'd just feel awkward or in some cases you just end up bursting into laughter.

But it's not cheating. It becomes an issue if time spent with snuggle buddy is more than bf and if thoughts are more on snuggle buddy than on bf, but if no act is commited real or virtual (by this, i mean cybering...wonder if a thread has popped up bout that yet) - then it can't be considered so.
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Old 2008-07-22, 21:57   Link #656
harmonious
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Is that what they're calling it nowadays, figured it was 'Nice-guy' syndrome.
But yes, once you do get to our hearts, it's hard for us to think of you lot sexually, simply cause you prove to be a guy who's not an arrogant insensitive prick.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Obsession with only thinking sexually about arrogant insensitive pricks.

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
As for the girls that continue to date them, get dumped and then complain to you, do yourselves a favour and drop the girl and move on yourselves. (After you tell her that she should respect herself more and stop going out with jerks)
I recommend to all men to never allow themselves to get into that situation.

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uuuh.... cheating.... okay, you may wanna clear that up for me as to 'how' if there's no physical intimacy involved.
Notice when I said but they don't see it that way. It is alright to women to basically have another boyfriend if they don't do anything sexual with him.

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I can't think of any reply to that, that wouldn't cut into you as a person, that sounds like a personal conclusion based off bad personal experiences, so I'll keep quiet on that note.
Are you new to the internet? Complaints about this exact crappy situation is all over. It is common place, the problem is that women don't ever realize what exactly they are doing so they hurt a ton of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
However:
With the whole share life details with and hang out with (depends on how often) thing, i'm assuming you've never had close friends of the opp sex who are close enough to feel like sisters.

That's what does (contary to popular belief) stop a couple from going further than trusting and supporting each other, even if sexual tension arose at some point, it'd just feel awkward or in some cases you just end up bursting into laughter.
Who is you exactly? No matter what you think, men will never view anyone who is not a sister as a sister.

We can think of the opposite sex as friends, but friends to men are simply someone who hang out and joke around. We don't share our feelings with a girl we don't love, period. If a guy is listening tentatively to a girl's problems without changing the subject or turning her on mute then odds are that he loves her and the girl is too dense to realize.

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
But it's not cheating. It becomes an issue if time spent with snuggle buddy is more than bf and if thoughts are more on snuggle buddy than on bf, but if no act is commited real or virtual (by this, i mean cybering...wonder if a thread has popped up bout that yet) - then it can't be considered so.
There are many forms of cheating and this is one of them. Guys view the bond where one can feel comfortable enough to share his personal issues and the ability to listen about hers as apart of the relationship. While some women run to another guy and blab about all the personal issues they have with him instead of their actual lover. No matter how you paint it or how you consider it, it's cheating and it does nothing but hurt both guys.

Last edited by harmonious; 2008-07-22 at 22:33.
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Old 2008-07-23, 06:49   Link #657
Mystique
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This is exactly what I am talking about. Obsession with only thinking sexually about arrogant insensitive pricks.
Wow... I'm sooo not seeing personal experience totally clouding over your judgement here, at all...

I've a feeling anyways, no matter how much I rephrase my words, you're so stuck with a certain belief that you'll pervert my meaning only as you can see things, so prob waste of time, but heh, let's try.

Take into account, I'm speaking generally of girls behaviours and thoughts and feelings here so you can understand what it is we see if you're in full nice guy mode. By no means does it account for every girl in every situation, as we all know when debating here, examples of a situation can only go so far and I trust people to be somewhat objective here.

I said:
But yes, once you do get to our hearts, it's hard for us to think of you lot sexually, simply cause you prove to be a guy who's not an arrogant insensitive prick.
- No we're not all obsessed over them, we're wary of them. The ones who speak the loudest, who command attention sad to say good chances are that they're dodgy, not faithful or just looking for casual sex (but don't state it from the start)
When women are scorned, we're scorned real badly.
Nice guys make us realise that we shouldn't judge you all, that the world is a mixed bag of sweets and (if the girl isn't an insecure, no self respecting lady) we should take a look at ourselves of why we're only snagging the bad guys.
Quote:
Notice when I said but they don't see it that way. It is alright to women to basically have another boyfriend if they don't do anything sexual with him.
You didn't answer my question, notice when I said 'you may wanna clear that up for me'
Shock, gasp, horror! A woman is asking you (as a guy I'm assuming) to explain to her, how this is the case if I supposedly can't see how it's cheating.
If I'm to apply your logic, I know... about 4 people who're cheating on their gf's and bf's right this very moment.
(There is a nice girl syndrome too btw, tell me if a guy has a best friend who happens to be female while in a relationship, he's cheating too, right?)
Quote:
It is one of the reasons I recommend both sides of a relationship to cut off all friendships of the opposite sex.
Quote:
I can't think of any reply to that, that wouldn't cut into you as a person, that sounds like a personal conclusion based off bad personal experiences, so I'll keep quiet on that note.
The 'if you've nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all' expression? That's what I meant there.
The sentence I bolded is an impractical, flippant, flimsy statement that sorry to burst your bubble, doesn't apply in the 9-6 office/full time job working world (if it’s a sector that deals with the public or a mix of males and females equally)
Adults will have relationships and they will have strong friendships, sometimes with people of the opposite sex too. That does not automatically qualify as cheating.
- Not all opp sex relationships will become more than platonic. There are sooo many factors that can influence a friendship to stay a friendship.
- Not everyone believes in a one night stand.
- Not everyone will sit there and allow the other person to confide more in you then your partner, rather some people will say "go and discuss this with your partner, you guys have got to communicate better than this." A lot of things in life are just misunderstandings blown out of hand.
- Not everyone feels like taking sexual advantage of a situation when feeling emotionally venerable.
And if no act has taken place, it is not cheating, it is not adultry.
Quote:
Are you new to the internet? Complaints about this exact crappy situation is all over. It is common place, the problem is that women don't ever realize what exactly they are doing so they hurt a ton of people.
Completely new to the internet, infact today, I just learnt what a browser is and that the internet itself is a series of networks linking to other networks; the discovery is quite amazing.
Quote:
Who is you exactly? No matter what you think, men will never view anyone who is not a sister as a sister.
'You' was a direct reference to you, but it seems my assumption in my previous post was correct.
Quote:
We can think of the opposite sex as friends, but friends to men are simply someone who hang out and joke around. We don't share our feelings with a girl we don't love, period.
Good point, there are many many many forms of love, I trust you are aware of that, right?
And don't you think you're really underestimating your own gender there, that should be my job.
  • Men are incapable of sharing feelings.
  • If they do, they love you.
  • By this, they wanna also have sex with you and be your boyfriend.
  • There is no other possibility in this world when a guy confides in a girl about himself emotionally.
Somehow, I've got to give guys more credit than that...

That's not to say that if I notice a guy talking to me lots and telling me all sorts that I haven't realised that he probably likes me more than a friend or already has feelings, there's always that possibility.
In addition that's not to say that I can happily think my close male friends all haven't at one point over the years thought of me naked or what I'd be like in bed, that's just what guys do so I've been told, it'll cross your minds.
Sometimes it's also a case of physical attraction; if its not there, then there are more chances that you'll just remain friends.
Also since we do know what makes the other person tick, we know to make it more than friendship just because we may be slightly attracted to each other or have feelings, may not work. To be with that person day in, day out, to eventually wanna live with them and be together forever, for some people it really will not work, lol.
There may be qualities needed in you as a person that where it makes for a great friendship between you and the oppsex friend, aren't enough to make a relationship hold strong for a long time.
Like I said, not everyone is looking for casual sex or one night stands and if two friends of the opposite sex both believe in long term committed relationships, they'll support each other into finding that with another person.

I know, some of you are probably shaking your heads disagreeing. Some of you are probably thinking 'in time, there will be a time when they'll kiss and have sex'. Someone will always end up falling for the other, I don't contest to that at all, it does happen.
For some people the unrequited feelings just grow stronger and stronger while they keep quiet, for others it'll be there, really strong and within months it can dissipate (crushes).
However, I'm speaking of situations where no one is hiding their feelings and are honest and are aware that there's an attraction here.
And despite that still, people can remain friends and confide in each other and give each other the respect and space to not flirt and set up some boundaries should one of them enter a full time relationship with someone else.

Quote:
If a guy is listening tentatively to a girl's problems without changing the subject or turning her on mute then odds are that he loves her and the girl is too dense to realize.
Yes, because girls are born with special mind reading powers, while the nice guy never actually gives the indication that 'I like you more than platonically, i like you sexually too.'
Tch, man I've already spent like 45mins desperately looking for this link on 'nice guys' that I regret now not having bookmarked it. The journalist is a woman. She is not bitter, not 1-sided, but incredibly factual and straight to the point.

She points out faults on both sides.
Both women and men.

If a guy comes all sweet and sensitive only to a girl for a short while and you get into our hearts, then yes, you are dooming yourself.
(He's soo sweet, like a puppy)
The same if a guy comes on really strong and overly sexual with an air of arrogance, chances are he's dooming himself too, we end up hostile or suspicious.
(He's an arrogant ass who'll probably cheat on me or leave me for another 'hot' woman)

The problem here as with most things is 'insecurity' and 'zero self confidence or self respect.'
On the female side, bad guys can sense those kinda women out 1000 miles away. They know all the "sweet, kind words", they know how to praise a woman and make her feel good. It's a lil ball of bad temptation wrapped up in fake 'nice guy' goodness to get us into bed and sorry to say, it works.
I'm telling you straight up, if a guy can charm a girl, by words or actions in regards to herself as a sexual being or as an alluring person, we will be smitten, and we will smile inside and our self confidence will rise even if it's just for the moment. We will be curious about you as more than a friend, we will think 'wonder what kinda girls he likes?'
It keeps that 'possible boyfriend/having sex with person' door ajar and as long as that isn't shut, you have a chance. Men aren't the only one who needs their egos stroked from time to time.

The woman also needs to realise her own self worth, but if she keeps on getting dumped by the bad guys and then leaping to the next guy who makes her feel good, she's blind to view him objectively, so of course her confidence is crushed and she keeps on repeating the same damn cycle over and over.
Of course you nice guys hear the sorry tales.

And the fault on the nice guy? Don't be too nice. xD
Keep us curious, keep us on our toes, keep parts of yourself to yourself, keep convos light and general with your personal thoughts and feelings, but don't tell us all your deepest fears and thoughts. Don't offer us the world on a silver platter before the first kiss.
A guy can be sweet and sensitive, but he can also be flirtatious and teasing and depending on the girl you with, guys can be a little crude or cheeky. If she pulls a high and mighty act by that point, she's a hypocrite. (lol, but that's just my personal opinion, each girl is different.)

Secondly, if you're chatting and hanging out and it's got to the point she's really confiding in you, well if you're both single, something may hopefully happen.
If she's already actively dating or has a boyfriend and starts spilling to ya, don't just sit there and listen to it all, that's a girl’s role, that's a 'friends' role.
"he's always there for me, and always listens and consoles me, he's such a great friend."
Where in that sentence are we supposed to get
'he sees me as a sexual being, he finds me physically attractive and likes my mind and my body, and he doesn't only see me as a female friend.'

It may be obvious to you guys.. but then you're guys. we speak a slightly different language, like I said, if you've settled into our hearts, you've turned us mushy.
You make the girl feel warm and safe and you're reliable and dependable and to be honest, it is nice to have friendships that are just platonic and nice like that.
Relationships require risk, they require a leap of faith and to some girls, we don't wanna risk that nice happy warm zone, we just wanna leave it is it is.
Which usually isn't good news for the guys, I know, but once that 'possible bf material' door has been shut, it's very very hard to re open, so don't let that door get shut.

Quote:
There are many forms of cheating and this is one of them. Guys view the bond where one can feel comfortable enough to share his personal issues and the ability to listen about hers as apart of the relationship. While some women run to another guy and blab about all the personal issues they have with him instead of their actual lover. No matter how you paint it or how you consider it, it's cheating and it does nothing but hurt both guys.
*laughs* and I said:
Quote:
It becomes an issue if time spent with snuggle buddy is more than bf and if thoughts are more on snuggle buddy than on bf, but if no act is committed real or virtual (by this, I mean cybering...wonder if a thread has popped up bout that yet) - then it can't be considered so.
Be it a marriage or a long term relationship, if there is a breakdown of communication between the couple and one person is confiding more so to the 3rd party, it is a problem in the relationship itself.
Something's gone wrong when she feels the need to speak her worries and fears to the other guy rather than to her partner. (Also, you do realise that girls do this with other girls’ right? Would that be considered 'cheating' in your opinion just because the woman's confidant is another woman?)

I'm guessing you're taking the term 'cheating' as a betrayal of feelings where a girl would go to the 'nice guy':
"I realise I don't love my husband. I’m confiding and trusting you more, I think I'm falling for you."
By that point, if the girl is sensible enough to talk to her husband/partner and be honest bout the breakdown of their relationship and they mutually split, it's okay. I doubt men are so blind to realise if there's hardly any personal communication going on, but she let's you know she's often at her 'best male friends' place, that she may no longer be in love with you and you guys need to re evaluate the relationship.

And even then to the nice guys, if you heard that, what would you do?
Would you still be 'nice' and wait for her in silence to realise your feelings while encouraging that she go make up with her partner?
Or will you encourage that she break off her current relationship?
Would you even have the nerve to, I wonder...

Best thing sometimes if you are currently stuck in a friendship with a girl who's always getting herself hurt and then comes crying to you is to back away. Her coming to you for shelter and security is giving her an excuse to continue to acting stupidly and no amount of 'you're better than this' is gonna get thru to her anymore than if a girl said it.
It's become a problem of lack of self worth on her part, it's something she needs to sort out. The nice guys too can do so much better than her, at least have some confidence and move on, if she continues to make excuses about her behaviour or remains stubborn and just blames men.

She may have many many good points, but as with most cases if a person is stuck in that vicious cycle, she won't even think she's worth much of herself, let alone imagine that you could ever be more than a friend, you're the 'safe happy warm zone', remember?

Anyways, this was meant to be for dating and on general advice on people's issues I believe, and I've somehow turned it into debate session on the entire 'nice guy' syndrome, so pardon my liberty there.

It just personally really irks me when I see a bunch of nice guys sit there, feeling sorry for themselves and go all bitter on women cause they can't get past the friend zone, as much as it irks me to no end when I see women sitting there feeling sorry for themselves, and going bitter on men cause they keep on going with guys who only serve to trample all over them.

For both sides, I say take a good look at yourself and take a good look at the kind of girls/guys you generally go for and how you are representing yourself to the other party.
If you're not sure or can't tell, then that's where friends on the opposite sex, at least those who can be straight up and honest will let you know where you may be going wrong. And if you don't have any, then that's where forums and threads like this can help

I've written as much as I can in hope that it may alleviate some of the bitterness I know many single people hold, and if you do have the will to try to find that someone special, that you try be aware of some of the pitfalls that leave you feeling trapped in a place you don't wanna be, then i say good on ya.
Sometimes some of us have to take paths of different directions to find that someone special, away from the mainstream methods. Some people are lucky to get girls or guys, some have to work very very hard at it.
But whatever your situation, do try to make it work for you in the best possible way, make yourself seen, make yourself heard in the way that you want to be seen and heard.

And good luck
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-07-23 at 07:00.
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Old 2008-07-23, 09:55   Link #658
Kakashi
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Nice guys eh? Well, not all nice guys are as nice as they seem...

Spoiler for Especially those with glasses...:


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Old 2008-07-23, 10:08   Link #659
Amray
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
Nice guys eh? Well, not all nice guys are as nice as they seem...
One minute they could be rubbing your feet for you and the next thing you know they are running out the door with your purse. It's hard to know who to trust in this day and age.

I hope I find an honest and caring female. Not a suck-up or anything. Although they may be disapointed as I am no rich man! There is someone perfect for everyone out there though, we just have to get off our backsides and find them...unless ofcourse you like internet relationships..
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Old 2008-07-23, 12:46   Link #660
Irenicus
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
Mystique, that post is epic. Cookie for you.

Honestly though, your advice to nice guys won't work for one reason: we're supposed to be nice guys! How in the world can us, nice guys, knight-in-shining-armor-illusion, comfort zone person, snuggle buddy, do that to a girl we love? Knowing she'll be hurt, left alone, no one to cry to? Worrying she'll cut herself instead or something? Resist those teary eyes, those pitiful circumstances, the victim of yet another criminal enterprise by scums of our own gender, the princess waiting to be rescued? I know, I know, medicine is bitter. Give it and go, she's better off in the long run. But the world would probably have been a much smoother place, and much more boring for that matter, if people are all rational and strong-willed. And nice guys, well, tend to be of the weaker kind in callousness compared to the playboys.

Just my two Pound Stirlings (or wait, do you Brits finally break down to common sense and finally accept the Euro? )
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