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Old 2012-08-19, 09:28   Link #10681
Tigress
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Paradoxine and Ledgem make some very good points.

I do not mean this in a bad way at all csuree but when you asked the girls in this thread for pictures I got a little worried. I dont put my face online so it wasnt solely for that reason that I avoided it. Even my Facebake is an anime character and a fake name. I felt that you were maybe seeking something online? I am not sure but from subsequent posts it looks like you have been trying that avenue. I would say what the others are saying. Fill your life with things you enjoy and meet people. If that means going to events where like minded people meet do it but dont go specifically looking to find a girlfriend. Look after yourself first. The rest will come.

I am not desperately looking for love because i think I have plenty of time. I see girls and guys my age getting married and sometimes it makes me think but its their decision and if they are ready at 22-24 years old and they met the one then thats okay. I am not. I think when I am in my mid 30s I will want to settle down and have children and do normal family stuff. If it happens before then that is fine too but I think the pressures on women is unrealistic. Many celeb women are waiting until their 30s and I admire that. I am far to immature as I am. I want a career a life and a little security and most importantly I want to find the right person to share it all with and that will happen when the time is right.
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Old 2012-08-19, 12:11   Link #10682
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Tigress View Post
I felt that you were maybe seeking something online? I am not sure but from subsequent posts it looks like you have been trying that avenue.
I think he was referring to online dating sites, and not an online relationship. Online dating sites take some of the guesswork out of finding relationships, since anyone listed is going to be single (well, usually) and looking for a romantic relationship.

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Originally Posted by Tigress View Post
Fill your life with things you enjoy and meet people. If that means going to events where like minded people meet do it but dont go specifically looking to find a girlfriend. Look after yourself first. The rest will come.
Things work out differently for everyone, but that's how it worked out for me. I decided that I wouldn't date for a few months, and then a few weeks later I met the woman who is now my wife. You can't plan for these things; all you can do is get your own life in order, and seize opportunities that come your way.

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I think when I am in my mid 30s I will want to settle down and have children and do normal family stuff. If it happens before then that is fine too but I think the pressures on women is unrealistic.
The problem for women is the whole "biological clock" issue. From a medical standpoint, once a woman hits age 32 (according to current statistics) the risk of birth defects and birth complications begins to rise quickly with each passing year. That, perhaps combined with a desire to be "young and energetic" for their children (or just a desire to allow their grandparents/parents to enjoy great-grand children/grandchildren) leads to women feeling pressured to have children while they're still in their 20's.
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Old 2012-08-19, 13:18   Link #10683
Tigress
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I dont agree. Both of my grandmothers were in their 30's when they got married and that was in times where healthcare was a lot worse than today. One is still with us and she is 79. I am 22. My parents married in there 20's so is their late 40's and early 50's. I think it is an old notion that needs to die fast. Medical reports say if we eat certain foods we will die younger or live longer. I dont pay attention to that. One grandmother went on to have 6 children the other had 4 and there was nothing wrong with any of those children. Children are so expensive nowadays that I wouldn't want more than two personally anyway. I wont be going around crying about a biological clock. I know my grandmother would long to see me happy with a man who will love me as much as I love him more than her desire to see great grandchildren. I am not in any hurry at least not now.

Last edited by Tigress; 2012-08-19 at 13:33.
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Old 2012-08-19, 13:51   Link #10684
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigress View Post
I dont agree. Both of my grandmothers were in their 30's when they got married and that was in times where healthcare was a lot worse than today. One is still with us and she is 79. I am 22. My parents married in there 20's so is their late 40's and early 50's. I think it is an old notion that needs to die fast. Medical reports say if we eat certain foods we will die younger or live longer. I dont pay attention to that. One grandmother went on to have 6 children the other had 4 and there was nothing wrong with any of those children. Children are so expensive nowadays that I wouldn't want more than two personally anyway. I wont be going around crying about a biological clock. I know my grandmother would long to see me happy with a man who will love more than her desire to see great grandchildren.
Disagree, If you wait until 30 that means that you only really have 10, maybe 15 years of reproductive life, and not only that but your fertility is going to be decreasing. It's cutting it very close.

For instance, if you're 30 year old woman and still single, it would be quite easy to panic, as you could easily have 3 or 4 years of dating ahead of you, and you don't want to be pushed into marriage with a guy that you don't like. Furthermore, the older you get, the harder it is physically to look after a kid. If you're 40, you don't have the energy you have at 25. So if you're 45 and your kid is 10, you won't be able to run around and have fun with him/her because simply put you'll get tired more easily.

Furthermore, as a woman gets older, dating gets harder. At 20, men are often falling over themselves to ask them out. At 30, they often get ignored in favour of younger women. By 30, most of the "good men" are already married off, so it becomes progressively harder to find good marriage material. The men left over in her age bracket are usually the playboys, the socially incompetent, the bums and the widows, who are undesirable each in their own way.

For men, it's the opposite, it becomes easier and easier to date as you get older (while it's really hard when you're young), and men don't have an age limit on their fertility either. Old women are compared to old crones, older men look wise and distinguished (Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellan...)
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Old 2012-08-19, 15:01   Link #10685
Tigress
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Wow I didn't know I had only 8 years of life left before I am old haggard and decrepid and undesirable old crone. An anime forum has fixed my view on life. Oh dear must go get married to the first boy that shows interest as I finish my education.

I have no money, a job that pays peanuts and doesnt cover my college expenses and I am not ready for children. There is no chance that I am going to spend my life with someone I don't care about because of an imaginery biological clock. Only men would say stuff like that. I am not posting in this chauvenistic thread anymore. Thanks for making me see sense.
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Old 2012-08-19, 16:32   Link #10686
csuree
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hahaha... i wrote a long poetic farewell letter and my submission ...ahh forget it......

i am now writing it again....damn this


so as i wanted to say i was indeed referring to dating sites.....but no luck....i clicked until now for 1500 girls in my town and only 3 replied back months ago.. i tried to go on a date but 2 turned me down immediately, the other one set the date and place to meet, but came 2 hours later, i waited for her 1 hour, during which i called her, she said she is getting ready, when the hour passed i called her again and she said she is now leaving from the other side of town which means another hour wait. i put down the phone and went home....
after i got home and went to bed, she called me 2 hours and 40 minutes after the time we set to meet up, that where am i right now.....
you can imagine how angry i was....but i contained myself, and calmly said that i went home as tomorrow i have to go to work and because i have to get up early.

after this i went like... girls are cruel....let them be .....at the time i said this i can say that there were a total of over 10 dates where i was stood up.....you can feel me right....

so back to the main topic......
i have no determination, i do not know how to get one....
i listened to all your advice but that was it.... i never done anything.....am i lazy or afraid.. i don't know.... the only thing i know now is regret.....immense regret for my f_cked up life.
i regret being smart, i regret not fighting in school when i had to fight, regret for being this weak, for immersing myself in my own little fantasy world, where i play need for speed, i watch anime, i read manga, and play VN's all day.....actually this is how my days off go by......

am i pathetic? am i a liar? am i a coward, good for nothing person?.....yes.....
do i deserve to be happy?......NOOO....

because i am not doing anything to be happier, i just sit and wait for a miracle.....
but this is not an anime where the MC gets joined by a gorgeous heroine and the live happily ever......<ohh f_ck that sh!t>
sorry for being so profane but i think i am on the verge of losing it this time,
i even said i was a nice guy......
who am i kidding?
i just come here to complain seeking to ease my pain, but the cause of that pain is me.....my ugly, no-good self that was built from the misery i accumulated over the years....
no one will save me, no miracle will happen.... where am i living......WHY am i living?
no purpose, no ambition,

sorry...this is a more serious issue than dating....this ....i don't have words for it. sorry again.
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Last edited by csuree; 2012-08-19 at 16:54.
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Old 2012-08-19, 19:11   Link #10687
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigress View Post
I dont agree. Both of my grandmothers were in their 30's when they got married and that was in times where healthcare was a lot worse than today. One is still with us and she is 79. I am 22. My parents married in there 20's so is their late 40's and early 50's. I think it is an old notion that needs to die fast. Medical reports say if we eat certain foods we will die younger or live longer. I dont pay attention to that.
There's nothing to argue here: statistically speaking, older women tend to have more children with developmental errors and childbirth problems than do younger women. That your grandmothers had children later and without complications may indicate that your genetics will be "hardier" when it comes to having children at an older age, but it could also mean that they were just very lucky. In either case, it doesn't mean that the statistics should be dismissed so readily.

I don't bring that up to challenge your notions of love or your life plans. Take your time, find the right person, and have children when you are ready. I only bring it up because I'm greatly saddened by the thought that you would think that you had unlimited time to have a child, waiting until you were in your late 30's or 40's, and then that you would suffer a child with severe developmental problems. Be aware of the risks, and make informed decisions.

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Originally Posted by csuree View Post
so as i wanted to say i was indeed referring to dating sites.....but no luck....i clicked until now for 1500 girls in my town and only 3 replied back months ago..
There are a few challenging things about dating sites. Many accounts are fake (at least on American sites); some accounts belong to women who are already in a relationship, but who did not alter their account to reflect this; and women members receive many requests from men, and can afford to be choosy. (My sister used a dating website for about two months, which is where my insight comes from.) In other words, don't feel bad about not receiving responses - it doesn't necessarily mean anything about you.

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Originally Posted by csuree View Post
i just come here to complain seeking to ease my pain, but the cause of that pain is me.....my ugly, no-good self that was built from the misery i accumulated over the years....
no one will save me, no miracle will happen.... where am i living......WHY am i living?
no purpose, no ambition,
There's nothing wrong with coming here to complain and seek support to ease your pain, but you certainly have some things to work through. You're here, you're alive, so make the most of it. Nobody deserves to be happy; happiness, as was mentioned before, is a state of mind. Everyone wants to be happy, but ultimately we're the ones who make ourselves happy or miserable. Think things through, and do what you need to do in order to improve your life. In the event that you can't do anything to improve your current situation, take heart in knowing that each phase of life is temporary (for better or for worse). Maybe this phase isn't a good one for you. That's too bad, but it will pass.
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Old 2012-08-21, 09:32   Link #10688
DonQuigleone
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Japan’s love affair with pornography killing “real sex” drive

Quote:
I had a hunch. Then, I did a search “pornography sexual drive.” Up came articles about how pornography is killing the sex drive of American men. An article in New York Magazine told stories of men who were having dates with porn stars on the internet while becoming less able to perform with the real women in their lives. The poor female partners of these men were trying their best to imitate these porn stars, but the men were only “freaked out” by their best efforts.

Hmm…porn-saturated Japan has a notoriously low-level of sexual activity, even among married couples. And in recent years young people are also losing interest in sex. This is a country where pornography is everywhere and available to children. Could there be a connection?
Thoughts?
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Old 2012-08-21, 10:12   Link #10689
Dextro
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I saw a documentary about that in, I think, NHK and I have to admit to being a bit bewildered by the concept. I think they called them "Sexless".

It's scary to think that some people get their expectations so amazingly high due to pornography that they just give up looking for real sex. You could even make the parallel to some Otaku's and their fixation with 2D "Waifus" in detriment of the real thing.

I used to think that it was just escapism, people giving up because it was just too hard to try and get a real relationship but maybe it's crossing into the realm of a real psychological issue, a disease even.

I'm also not surprised to see this happen in Japan not because of the amount of Porn available, that's just a symptom, but due to the their society values and the pressure they place on people to conform and follow the norms. The more you push people into strict rules the more they'll look for ways out. Funny how the human mind works hum?
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Old 2012-08-21, 10:24   Link #10690
DonQuigleone
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Well, as a red blooded male, I think the existence of ready supply of pornography (and other erotica, hentai etc.) takes the edge off of one's lusty instincts. So that motivating factor for seeking out women simply isn't there. If porn satisfies your needs on a day to day basis, you don't need to go through all the work of dating women, and even if you do finally secure a date, sex with a woman is more complex then sex with yourself, and may at first be less gratifying due to the lack of familiarity.

I would also argue that, at least in Japan, romantic anime/manga/galgames also serve as a substitute for relationships, in a similar way to porn substituting for sex. Throw them into a "real" relationship, and suddenly they may not have to deal with emotionally satisfying both their partner and themselves.

I don't think Japan is unique here, just that maybe they're a bit further along.

It's a bit ironic though, maybe porn is the best prevention for teenage sex?
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Old 2012-08-21, 10:56   Link #10691
MakubeX2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I would also argue that, at least in Japan, romantic anime/manga/galgames also serve as a substitute for relationships, in a similar way to porn substituting for sex. Throw them into a "real" relationship, and suddenly they may not have to deal with emotionally satisfying both their partner and themselves.

I don't think Japan is unique here, just that maybe they're a bit further along.
The failure for young people to get engaged and reproduce is not a problem unique to Japan, it seems. Singapore has something similar. Taiwan too.

Those 2 Asian nations I've cited does not have much in common with Japan pop culture wise. So that throws your argument out of your window. What we need to find out is what is the common factor between those 3 that prevents the fertile part of the population from engaging each other ? I'll share what I know here regarding the common factor between those 3 countries are the high population density, high literacy rate and high demands that drives their young to succeed or die. So basically, people tended to value money and career over relationship, a relationship without money will fail in their society given time.

PS :- With the high connectivity to the Net today driven by the advent of Smart Phones in recent year, easy porn access is not unique to Japan it seems. So we can forego that argument now.
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Old 2012-08-21, 19:25   Link #10692
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if this is it for some people, but I don't think it explains Japan's problem. My guess is that the issue in Japan relates to their work ethic and stress levels. I can tell you that's what happened to me and my wife. Without going into too much detail, her sex drive dropped fairly quickly after starting medical school (a high-pressure environment where you're studying during every waking moment). It would pick up when she had vacations, but immediately would drop again upon returning to school. I started medical school three years after her, and while the change hasn't been as drastic (possibly because I'm a bit more laid back than my wife is and because my sex drive was higher to begin with), my sex drive has also dropped.

When it comes to having children, I would think that economic factors and a bit more come into play. People aren't becoming financially independent until their mid- to late-20's, which is later than it used to be in society's history. They're also making less and are steeped in debt. There's also a hypothesis that "maturity" is being delayed. Put those all together, and people are going to want to hold off on having children. Delaying children used to be something very common to people who went into careers involving a lot of schooling (such as medicine), but as more people go into higher education and pick up debt, it makes sense that those people would also hold off. Hold off for long enough, and perhaps they figure that they're too old, or have become comfortable with a life free of children.

I'm also skeptical that pornography can turn people off to real sex. If you've never had sex then it can probably give you some unrealistic expectations, sure... but watch enough pornography (and/or have enough sex) and porn begins to lose its appeal. It becomes fairly clear when people are acting, or where body augmentation has occurred. If it seems too fake and you notice it, then it isn't arousing.
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Old 2012-08-21, 19:44   Link #10693
LeoXiao
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I think that while porn or masturbation may satisfy purely sexual needs, you still can't get feminine company out of your right hand. I don't know how it is for other guys but even if you have porn it would still suck to not be in a relationship with an actual female.
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Old 2012-08-21, 20:09   Link #10694
Paradoxine
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if this is it for some people, but I don't think it explains Japan's problem. My guess is that the issue in Japan relates to their work ethic and stress levels. I can tell you that's what happened to me and my wife. Without going into too much detail, her sex drive dropped fairly quickly after starting medical school (a high-pressure environment where you're studying during every waking moment). It would pick up when she had vacations, but immediately would drop again upon returning to school. I started medical school three years after her, and while the change hasn't been as drastic (possibly because I'm a bit more laid back than my wife is and because my sex drive was higher to begin with), my sex drive has also dropped.

When it comes to having children, I would think that economic factors and a bit more come into play. People aren't becoming financially independent until their mid- to late-20's, which is later than it used to be in society's history. They're also making less and are steeped in debt. There's also a hypothesis that "maturity" is being delayed. Put those all together, and people are going to want to hold off on having children. Delaying children used to be something very common to people who went into careers involving a lot of schooling (such as medicine), but as more people go into higher education and pick up debt, it makes sense that those people would also hold off. Hold off for long enough, and perhaps they figure that they're too old, or have become comfortable with a life free of children.

I'm also skeptical that pornography can turn people off to real sex. If you've never had sex then it can probably give you some unrealistic expectations, sure... but watch enough pornography (and/or have enough sex) and porn begins to lose its appeal. It becomes fairly clear when people are acting, or where body augmentation has occurred. If it seems too fake and you notice it, then it isn't arousing.
For what it's worth, I agree with you. I don't think porn is the problem really. I think the problem is apathy. Why bother getting a partner? Why should I go out of my way? As long as I have a job and I can support myself, that's enough. If not that, then also factor in the presumably growing number of socially inept people and the trend makes sense, at least to me. I think most of the time the simplest explanations are the most accurate in terms of human nature. Regarding financial situations influencing birth rates: maybe, but personally I don't think that is really the main factor. Poor people have been having children since the beginning of civilisation. We wouldn't even be here otherwise, much less would we be in the kind of world we are now, where so many consumer product's are produced in China and the like. If they really, really wanted children, they'd have them and simply deal with the financial difficulty that would invoke.

Ultimately, your employment status and how much you earn or possess dictates your position in society. Once people have attained what's required to 'live', who's to say that they bother looking for more? Most people manage it, but is it impossible that there is a growing portion of the population working 9-5 unwilling to try or just too tired? I may be wrong but I don't think it's bad that more people question the need for relationships or at the very least having children. Having children for the sake of it seems to still be a problem imo. Personally, anime has actually enabled me to further distance myself from real life social encounter's, though that's sort of neither here nor there as I was already half way across the solar system regarding socialising.

I'd also suggest that yet another reason for the dropping birth rates (speaking generally, not Japan in particular) is that...dare I say it, less people falling in love/interested in each other? I don't think it's too far fetched to be honest. Especially in the past, for a very long time getting married, having kids etc was essentially a societal requirement. Apart from social pressure, there were and still are financial incentives. I'm stretching a bit here but I can't help but think of the times in history when children were bred solely to be a heir and or simply work in order to sustain the family and be grateful about it. I think 'bred' was the right word to use there in all honesty.

Those are my opinions at least, this topic has interested me, might write something up on it, nothing else to do of course. Also of note is that I used no statistics for the above, so feel free to contradict me. FYI so far I haven't partaken in any social events during summer, not that I was invited to any. I guess you could say I'm socially inept too.
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Old 2012-08-21, 20:30   Link #10695
DonQuigleone
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One thing I will say, ready access to erotica/pornography does enable apathy concerning relationships, even if it's not a direct cause of it.

I wonder how this trend will effect society, say, 50 years from now, however. It will be... interesting.
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Old 2012-08-21, 20:59   Link #10696
MakubeX2
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
One thing I will say, ready access to erotica/pornography does enable apathy concerning relationships, even if it's not a direct cause of it.
Something to think about here. In Japan, people still pays a lot to get attention at Host/Hostress Club and Maid Cafe. Why ?

Quote:
I wonder how this trend will effect society, say, 50 years from now, however. It will be... interesting.
Humanity will endure, that's for sure.
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Old 2012-08-21, 21:11   Link #10697
Ledgem
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Regarding financial situations influencing birth rates: maybe, but personally I don't think that is really the main factor. Poor people have been having children since the beginning of civilisation. We wouldn't even be here otherwise, much less would we be in the kind of world we are now, where so many consumer product's are produced in China and the like. If they really, really wanted children, they'd have them and simply deal with the financial difficulty that would invoke.
I disagree with this, but the reason goes beyond finances. One could argue that people from a low socioeconomic status tend to have a hard time breaking out because they're handicapped based on their upbringing. Many people in that bracket tend to have children very young, and without a stable family unit. This perpetuates itself. It's harmful enough on its own, but it makes it very difficult for people to advance their careers. Without much money, without much time (or desire, or planning) for their children, and without maturity and solidified values to provide good role models for their children, what are the chances that their children will grow up to do things differently?

In a way, it comes down to planning for the future. One would expect that people of a higher socioeconomic status would be educated and forward-thinking enough to avoid having children until their career was stable, they had a stable significant other, and were in a position where they could provide a good environment to raise their child. People who don't think ahead, and who don't exercise caution in their sexual activities, well...

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Originally Posted by Paradoxine View Post
I'd also suggest that yet another reason for the dropping birth rates (speaking generally, not Japan in particular) is that...dare I say it, less people falling in love/interested in each other? I don't think it's too far fetched to be honest.
It's possible... but I think there's more to it than that. Did people in the past really love each other to a greater extent, and did more people love in general? I have no data to support anything, but I doubt it. Rather, women in the past were stuck in their marriages. They did not have careers, and the notion of a "woman's duty" to her husband was fairly strong. If a woman didn't marry, she had nothing.

Today, women are far more empowered. Divorce is no longer taboo, and women are able to financially support themselves. That women are working and spending a lot of their time and energy outside of the home likely causes some strain on the family unit. It means that even when a man has time off from work, his wife might either be working, or too exhausted from her own work to spend time with and/or have patience for her husband. That, combined with the ease of divorce (meaning that the commitment to marriage isn't as rock-solid as it once was), means that relationships today require much greater care and diplomacy than they used to.

Which also assumes that people want to enter relationships at all. The high rates of divorce have cheapened the meaning of marriage, and I get the impression that the bigoted attitudes of organized religion toward marriage have turned some people off to it, as well. And then there's the whole commitment thing... a few years ago I read an article discussing this issue. They interviewed young Japanese women, who basically said that they didn't want to even think about settling down until their 30's or 40's. They were having too much fun living freely, and didn't want to be dragged down by the traditional expectations that they would be spending most of their time and energy to home-making once married.

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
One thing I will say, ready access to erotica/pornography does enable apathy concerning relationships, even if it's not a direct cause of it.
How does it enable apathy?
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Old 2012-08-21, 23:58   Link #10698
Usami_Haru
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Also don't forget that in japan women are expected to quit working when they have children. This is probably one of the most important reason for japan's lowered birth rate.
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Old 2012-08-22, 01:11   Link #10699
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
Something to think about here. In Japan, people still pays a lot to get attention at Host/Hostress Club and Maid Cafe. Why ?
I would argue that host clubs and maid cafe exist in the same world of relationship substitutes that galgames occupy. People often go to these things because they have no intimate relationships of their own, and it's an easy (though expensive) way to get the feeling of a relationship with none of the effort and responsibility of a real one. If you get stuck in a chain of using these things, you're not really in state where you're psychologically able for a functional real relationship. It's a comfortable hell to live in, and so difficult to bring yourself from escaping from, as things get more unpleasant before they get better.

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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
It's possible... but I think there's more to it than that. Did people in the past really love each other to a greater extent, and did more people love in general? I have no data to support anything, but I doubt it. Rather, women in the past were stuck in their marriages. They did not have careers, and the notion of a "woman's duty" to her husband was fairly strong. If a woman didn't marry, she had nothing.
Love was rarely a factor, familial politics(after all, this is not an era of the nuclear family, a marriage was the joining of two families, if both families hated each other...) and general survival. Men and women could not easily survive on their own. Women obviously needed their husbands earnings, but men likewise needed their wive's myriad housecare skills (most significantly clothesmaking and food preparation). These, and others, were not insignificant tasks.
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How does it enable apathy?
It makes such a lifestyle tolerable. Without these various entertainments, it would be difficult to tolerate singlehood for such long extended periods.
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Old 2012-08-22, 01:31   Link #10700
MakubeX2
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I would argue that host clubs and maid cafe exist in the same world of relationship substitutes that galgames occupy. People often go to these things because they have no intimate relationships of their own, and it's an easy (though expensive) way to get the feeling of a relationship with none of the effort and responsibility of a real one. If you get stuck in a chain of using these things, you're not really in state where you're psychologically able for a functional real relationship. It's a comfortable hell to live in, and so difficult to bring yourself from escaping from, as things get more unpleasant before they get better.
It makes no dense based on your previous argument. True apathy would dictate that one spend a couple of thousand yen on porn or game that one can watch or play over and over. A visit to a club for just an hour can easily cost ten times more. So why bother ?
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