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Old 2009-06-16, 01:49   Link #1161
User91411
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To me, dating means 'take a girl out a few times and hopefully you'll get some pussy by the end of it all'.

I'm so negative.

PS: It was meant as a cynical jab at bad boy attitudes.

Last edited by User91411; 2009-06-16 at 03:53.
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Old 2009-06-16, 01:52   Link #1162
Shinoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchburn View Post
Concerning the "ladder theory" and nice guys, well I don't believe it and I seriously don't care about their "research." I appreciate nice guys and I don't think any guy should go out of their way to change their image just because some theory says that bad boys get all the girls. I know a lot of shy and meek guys who have very pretty girlfriends.
I don't understand this generalization on how they have to mean bad boys? Really now, All they mean is don't be a tool with no confidence(Just unflinching coincidence its a quality many bad boys share lol). Its completely right in that regard. And being personally honest here, I have never found a shy/meek lad attractive nor have seen one with an interesting lady. They reek of boredom.

I'll say this, Don't ask her out in an email. An Email is impersonal, might as well be saying "I'm desperate". If it is the only option, you should but really its a truly atrocious attempt at attracting someone
To add, Never pin your hopes on a single person. I'd ask her out the next time you see her(Cup of Tea! of course, all gents do )but I wouldn't focus on her. Keep looking and don't worry about her till you see her again. No reason to focus on the sushi in an all you can eat seafood bar.

And finally, tell me what she cosplays. I wish to make generalizations on what type of guys she likes, what's her personality, and other such preemptive qualities for someone who I shall never meet


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Old 2009-06-16, 03:11   Link #1163
npcomplete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinoto View Post
And being personally honest here, I have never found a shy/meek lad attractive nor have seen one with an interesting lady. They reek of boredom.
...but.. the meek shall inherit the earth, right?
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Old 2009-06-16, 03:12   Link #1164
Irenicus
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I agree with everyone else pretty much. An e-mail is ridiculously impersonal for something as, well, personal, as asking someone out. Use it to establish contact if you wish, then ask her out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinoto View Post
I'll say this, Don't ask her out in an email. An Email is impersonal, might as well be saying "I'm desperate". If it is the only option, you should but really its a truly atrocious attempt at attracting someone
To add, Never pin your hopes on a single person. I'd ask her out the next time you see her(Cup of Tea! of course, all gents do )but I wouldn't focus on her. Keep looking and don't worry about her till you see her again. No reason to focus on the sushi in an all you can eat seafood bar.
Isn't that...kinda mean? I mean, surely there is more to a relationship than "The Game" and more to a person than being a fish in the sea? If he really likes her then why should he actively look at anyone else? Am I just being an idiotic hopeless romantic here?

Questions, questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npcomplete
...but.. the meek shall inherit the earth, right?
Not if it's about passing down your genes.

Mind, the way I see it, what girls see as confidence, guys usually suspect asshole-ery. If a guy is *hopelessly* in love, in that first, glorious, all-consuming stage of infatuation, of course he's all weak in front of her! He wants to be as nice as he could ever be (according to the Ladder Theory he's going the wrong way XD); he wants to do everything to make her happy; he wants to be perfect, to do everything right. So if some guy can just flirt a girl up to heaven without even blinking, we usually see him as just wanting her pussy rather than being a confident man, because being *in love* tends to (temporarily) destroy all reason, sense, and natural coolness in men, and make them (temporarily) hopelessly lame.

So the miscommunication goes.
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Old 2009-06-16, 03:50   Link #1165
Throne Invader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinoto View Post
I don't understand this generalization on how they have to mean bad boys? Really now, All they mean is don't be a tool with no confidence(Just unflinching coincidence its a quality many bad boys share lol). Its completely right in that regard. And being personally honest here, I have never found a shy/meek lad attractive nor have seen one with an interesting lady. They reek of boredom.

I'll say this, Don't ask her out in an email. An Email is impersonal, might as well be saying "I'm desperate". If it is the only option, you should but really its a truly atrocious attempt at attracting someone
To add, Never pin your hopes on a single person. I'd ask her out the next time you see her(Cup of Tea! of course, all gents do )but I wouldn't focus on her. Keep looking and don't worry about her till you see her again. No reason to focus on the sushi in an all you can eat seafood bar.

And finally, tell me what she cosplays. I wish to make generalizations on what type of guys she likes, what's her personality, and other such preemptive qualities for someone who I shall never meet


When it comes to the ladder theory I'm pretty sure we see many exceptions around us. Then again, there are different levels of shyness I guess. There are people who are seemingly shy but once you get to know them, they're actually quite lively and then there are people who really avoid people Some nice guys may not finish first but they won't always finish last.

Your advice to outfoxzero is funny though. Why not bother asking him what he's looking for first?
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Old 2009-06-16, 06:57   Link #1166
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolton View Post
To me, dating means 'take a girl out a few times and hopefully you'll get some pussy by the end of it all'.

I'm so negative.

PS: It was meant as a cynical jab at bad boy attitudes.
Haha, well, that's why some girls who want a long term relationship state that they want to wait for marriage before any sexual intercourses. Because boys who go as far as marrying a girl just to "get her pussy" are quite rare (thanksfully) They can "accept" what she wants at first and try to change her mind, but if they fail, they usually just just ditch the girl.

That way you can sort out those who are serious (given your own standarts), and those who are not


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinoto View Post
[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]I don't understand this generalization on how they have to mean bad boys? Really now, All they mean is don't be a tool with no confidence(Just unflinching coincidence its a quality many bad boys share lol). Its completely right in that regard. And being personally honest here, I have never found a shy/meek lad attractive nor have seen one with an interesting lady. They reek of boredom.
And since when all the "nice/kind guys" are shy/meek lad? Generalization anyone? You would be surprised by some nice guys I know, who can beat the hell out of the "bad boys" in a fight if, for example, one of them annoys their GF/wife

Anyway, where you live in might be true, but here where I live, they are girls, even some beautiful ladies, who date nice/kind guys, and even some of those who are the shy type.

But anyway, you don't have to be or act like a bad boy to show some masculanity and confidence. This is mostly the males chauvinist who act like that because they don't understand it .

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I only have her e-mail.
I still think that asking her out IRL would be the best solution.

As an advice, I would say that men should not believe that they have to disguise their intentions. I am a girl who talk to many girls, and one of the recurrent topics is that men should be more sincere Many girls can feel it when a guy does things because he ultimately wants to ask the girl out, so no need to beat around the bush.

I personally prefer a man who tries to ask me out instead of acting nice with me while waiting a supposed "best time" to ask me out. Not that I am fond about breaking hearts, but even if it happens that i am not interested and so reject somebody, I respect those who are honest with me.

Anyway, if you currently only have her email. It can become difficult. Does she live far from you? Anyways, as AmoreDoll said, just try to ask her out. Write an email with your sincere feelings, and keep in mind that being rejected could happen. But even so, you would have tried, so less regrets and no "if I asked her out what would she have said".

I know you said that you were the "shy" type, but be courageous, you might be surprised by the result

Quote:
A bit of both. I'm normally quite helpful - even to people I don't know on occassion - and I didn't decide to invite her out for dinner until after I had helped her. However, I strongly suspect that the reason I helped search for so long was because I thought she was cute.
No worries~~

I used a bad wording, because I might have implied that all the people who do it on purpose are not serious, but it would be a false statement. While there are boys and girls who show behaviors that I personally dislike, I don't think there's something wrong in helping a person you really like.


@Mystique, If you ever read this, Mystique, maybe you could give interesting and possiby different advices than mine to him. You're quite helpful in general on this topic

Last edited by Narona; 2009-06-16 at 07:21. Reason: Forgot a "don't" :heh:
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Old 2009-06-16, 07:21   Link #1167
Kakashi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Mind, the way I see it, what girls see as confidence, guys usually suspect asshole-ery. If a guy is *hopelessly* in love, in that first, glorious, all-consuming stage of infatuation, of course he's all weak in front of her! He wants to be as nice as he could ever be (according to the Ladder Theory he's going the wrong way XD); he wants to do everything to make her happy; he wants to be perfect, to do everything right. So if some guy can just flirt a girl up to heaven without even blinking, we usually see him as just wanting her pussy rather than being a confident man, because being *in love* tends to (temporarily) destroy all reason, sense, and natural coolness in men, and make them (temporarily) hopelessly lame.

So the miscommunication goes.
That's true, can't help but say this was brilliantly put.

But maybe a bit idealistic? I hope it isn't, however there's a risk inherent in allowing yourself to fall head-over-heels. It can be make you very vulnerable. Coming from someone who tends to fall in love quite quickly and shows it, it was pretty painful for me to see a girl I was crazy over shun me. Who should you be angry at? Yourself for presuming too much too fast? Her for not feeling the same way? It's difficult to restrain oneself from doing the latter, but you have to. In the end maybe it's best to let the relationship develop before going crazy for her.

And, well, it could also be that some guys really aren't hopelessly in love from the go.
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Old 2009-06-16, 10:46   Link #1168
Jazzrat
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Bad boys are for flings, nice boys are for long term relationships.
So... put on the whichever personality suitable for your motive

Though generalizations are ... generalizations. So the best advice i could give you is read her body language, see what kinda girl she is like before you move in for the "kill".

Casual but with some sexual tension approach is what i like to adopt most of the time until i figure out the next step.
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Old 2009-06-16, 10:59   Link #1169
0utf0xZer0
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I'll be leaving replying to most of these until later since I have work soon, but I want to float an idea.

One of my anime clubs is doing a post convention meet on the 28th. Since we'll have an LCD projector at the meet and I'm one of the more experienced photographers in the group, I'll probably be doing a brief presentation of my photos, some with commentary.

As I only have her e-mail, I'm thinking this might be a good chance to get in touch with her again without making too personal a request over e-mail. The downsides, of course, would be that I don't know if she'd actually be able to make it. In particular, I'm worried about hints I got that she's from a part of the city that has rather poor transit connections to the location we'd be using.

Edit: and yes, I have shortlisted two of her photos for the presentation I'd like to make. They turned out really well
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Old 2009-06-16, 11:47   Link #1170
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@0utf0xZer0,

I agree mostly with the posts above. An email is pretty impersonal, and if I were in her shoes and wouldn't have been hoping for an invitation from you, I'd decline.
There is no way to have any impact on her in an email so her answer depends on what she already thinks of you. It's hard to tell, since I doubt she showed any clear signs (at least some you'd notice ).

As you are already implying - to keep the contact is the best way. Asking her about the next convention / about her photos is at least a topic ... and from her answer you might be able tell if she want to keep the contact or not.
Since it's plausible she has one I'd suggest to ask her if she'd give you her instant messaging adress. You don't need to be that direct from the start (might scare her away if she hasn't already a thing for you) and just tell her you'd enjoyed the time with her / were happy to have met her / something along these lines .. and would like to chat with her somewhat. Or you just as for her instant messenger adress without big explanation ... since too much is already obvious again.

At least - by asking her things / asking for further contact, you see if she's interested to keep in touch with you. When she's happy to talk to you, you might have a chance. If she reacts positively give it a a shot and ask her out (even so I have no idea how close you two live to each other).
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Old 2009-06-16, 17:48   Link #1171
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
@Mystique, If you ever read this, Mystique, maybe you could give interesting and possibly different advices than mine to him. You're quite helpful in general on this topic
*amused*
I dunno, I've seen fence sitting on this thread for the last few days and the rest of you guys here seem to be doing plenty fine for 0utf0xZer0.

I'll say this much, Fome has definitely opened a new can of worms with the "ladder theory" thing.
It got me reading for a little over 1hr (so far) on all related relationship psychology surrounding it from the wiki link and that's only scratching the tip of the surface.
(By shrink terms, I discovered that I'm a "Misogynist Intellectual Whore", yeah go me!) xD
It simply holds some universal basic truths but naturally it's not the be all and end all, it's just information to keep note of when a guy does approach a girl/woman.

At present, Life bitch that she is, is currently kicking my ass, so no time to sit and write for up to 1hr like I usually do
But I will re read his dilemma and what people have said, though it seems he has enough to get going for his presentation and re meeting her.
Btw, facebook her if you have an account.
Less personal than IM, more personal than email, lots of ways to interact with her (wall, pm, comment on status, photos etc)

Can be seen as 'business like' in relation to your presentation but can also communicate more, offering more chance for the occasional personal questions and topics
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Old 2009-06-16, 19:11   Link #1172
Fome
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I've heard that the extant of the Ladder Theory's accuracy varies across cultures. My uncle (he has lived in Japan since high school) says that over there many romantic relationships begin with close friendships, and over time they become more attached to each other.
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Old 2009-06-16, 20:48   Link #1173
Mystique
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Originally Posted by Fome View Post
I've heard that the extant of the Ladder Theory's accuracy varies across cultures. My uncle (he has lived in Japan since high school) says that over there many romantic relationships begin with close friendships, and over time they become more attached to each other.
That contradicts it.
Ladder theory in typically states that a woman has two models, a man has 1.
If a man doesn't begin within the 'potential' side (friends, but viewing secretly as a potential bf) - and get's stuck in the friendzone.
He's staying in the friendzone simply cause he fits her emotional needs so well, she sees no reason to risk that for a relationship, nor will her mind switch suddenly to view someone you're comfy with platonically as someone you may wanna have sex with.
It's perhaps more common in cultures where males and females have more platonic friendships than cultures where they court each other with potential of being more or it's strictly on a work level, where the relationship goes no further than what's being discussed in the office.

Hence going with Miko Miko's situation with a guy she's really close with and doesn't wanna lose him as a friend, but doesn't feel more for him at this point in time, you mentioned the model, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Bad boys are for flings, nice boys are for long term relationships.
So... put on the whichever personality suitable for your motive

Though generalizations are ... generalizations. So the best advice i could give you is read her body language, see what kinda girl she is like before you move in for the "kill".
Casual but with some sexual tension approach is what i like to adopt most of the time until i figure out the next step.
Puts Jazzrat on the 'potential' ladder.
Simply cause (upon success, some women may be on 'instant hostile' mode and feel offended) he's planted a seed of an idea of presenting himself as someone to be viewed sexually. Even if a woman thinks upon it for a few secs, it's typically enough.
"He's a really nice guy, kind, sweet, makes me laugh. He's also kinda hot and flirts well.... wonder what he'd be like as more than a friend...? Wonder if he already has a gf?"
The relationship may be nothing more than friends, but if there's good chemistry going on, then chances increase that you won't be stuck in the friend zone permanently.
Stereotypes are always good for 'general' ground, but naturally read and treat each individual according to what suits their personality best.
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-06-16 at 21:28.
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Old 2009-06-16, 22:08   Link #1174
Fome
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
That contradicts it.
Ladder theory in typically states that a woman has two models, a man has 1.
If a man doesn't begin within the 'potential' side (friends, but viewing secretly as a potential bf) - and get's stuck in the friendzone.
He's staying in the friendzone simply cause he fits her emotional needs so well, she sees no reason to risk that for a relationship, nor will her mind switch suddenly to view someone you're comfy with platonically as someone you may wanna have sex with.
It's perhaps more common in cultures where males and females have more platonic friendships than cultures where they court each other with potential of being more or it's strictly on a work level, where the relationship goes no further than what's being discussed in the office.

Hence going with Miko Miko's situation with a guy she's really close with and doesn't wanna lose him as a friend, but doesn't feel more for him at this point in time, you mentioned the model, no?
Yeah, the ladder theory is still completely relevant in this case. I'm just saying I heard it's different in Japan. I don't know which of the two reasons you offered might be attributed to it.
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Old 2009-06-16, 23:03   Link #1175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
I've heard that the extant of the Ladder Theory's accuracy varies across cultures. My uncle (he has lived in Japan since high school) says that over there many romantic relationships begin with close friendships, and over time they become more attached to each other.
I'm inclined to agree it varies with cultures. Among the Chinese I have noticed romances do start from close friendships. Yet in America, among non-Chinese cultures, the male has already been regarded as being defeated and taking a loss if the romantic relationship he seeks in a girl becomes just a friendship. Of course, it doesn't apply to every male here...but among some.
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Old 2009-06-16, 23:33   Link #1176
LeoXiao
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Bad boys are for flings, nice boys are for long term relationships.
lol that's pretty much what I've thought (hoped) for a long time.
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Old 2009-06-17, 01:23   Link #1177
Throne Invader
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I just reread the ladder theory thing and alot of it or rather most of it doesn't apply in the Philippines. It's way different

I typed ladder theory on yahoo then clicked the 1st result. I really do feel sorry for the guy who made that website
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Last edited by Throne Invader; 2009-06-17 at 01:35.
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Old 2009-06-17, 02:16   Link #1178
0utf0xZer0
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Thanks for the various advice, people. I'm not going to reveal exactly what I sent her, but I think talking about it a little helped immensely in choosing an approach I can have confidence in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchburn View Post
You should be prepared to be rejected and perhaps feel slightly embarrassed but tell yourself it's ok because you tried. There would be higher chances of her saying yes if you talk with her and got to know a bit of her personal life. Good Luck with that
I haven't had to deal with rejection before, but last time I was this interested in a girl, she ended up with the friend I brought along when I meet her because I thought it would be too awkward if it was just us two. So I have lost before, at least - and was able to do so graciously, although I'm not sure I could have kept a straight face if he'd mentioned they were going out in a face to face setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
As an advice, I would say that men should not believe that they have to disguise their intentions. I am a girl who talk to many girls, and one of the recurrent topics is that men should be more sincere Many girls can feel it when a guy does things because he ultimately wants to ask the girl out, so no need to beat around the bush.
Heh... I'll try and bare that in mind. Although I suspect for some guys, the need to have perfect timing is partly a matter of nerves - putting the matter off until you know you're not going to get another shot that good.
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Old 2009-06-17, 02:32   Link #1179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I haven't had to deal with rejection before, but last time I was this interested in a girl, she ended up with the friend I brought along when I meet her because I thought it would be too awkward if it was just us two. So I have lost before, at least - and was able to do so graciously, although I'm not sure I could have kept a straight face if he'd mentioned they were going out in a face to face setting.
Awww Well the same thing kind of happened to 2 of my friends. The worst part is that they were best friends. One of em was interested in the guy. Actually they were interested in each other but then the guy became interested in my other friend because they take the same route going home. In the end it became the two of them. My first friend was crushed. Their friendship was never the same again

Don't lose hope 0utf0xZer0. I'm pretty sure the girl for you is just out there And whatever happens, pay no heed to the ladder theory The answer on how to get our special someone is inside of all of us and not on some theory.
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Old 2009-06-17, 03:39   Link #1180
Shinoto
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Originally Posted by Witchburn View Post
Awww Well the same thing kind of happened to 2 of my friends. The worst part is that they were best friends. One of em was interested in the guy. Actually they were interested in each other but then the guy became interested in my other friend because they take the same route going home. In the end it became the two of them. My first friend was crushed. Their friendship was never the same again
And what does this teach you now about the ladder theory. You always want to be at the top. When two predators fight over the prey. You better damn well hope your the TRex with Lazers and Bazooka side attachments with power jets for hovering. We know he is on top of the ladder. Ladder Theory 1, Haters 0 >_<

Its like darwinism, Survival of the fittest. The stronger prey will always win. Like how the lion gets the Gazelle...unless that Gazelle was genetically modified with blood of a Trex to create a super mutagen species of incredible speed and deadliness. Then its more like Predator rules, Were the Predator becomes the prey. Except I really don't know how Arnold could be seen as anything but the predator. But that would be an entirely different set of rules

See dating is complicated ****. I have no idea what I'm talking about now but I want both Denny's and a copy of Predator.



Joking aside, Regardless of what happens Zero. Don't doubt, Don't ponder and worst of all, Do not say what if. All that will do is make you loose your hair early...You'll end up in a worst state than prior.
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