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Old 2009-08-29, 10:50   Link #1421
Ascaloth
I don't give a damn, dude
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
As for 'what to do next' Ascaloth?
For starters, abandon this thread for a while and focus on getting to know her. For most part it's like being friends still, there is no 'switch' when you change your status, you just grow in time and develop the relationship to become stronger and more intimate.
There's no time limit, so don't think "I need to make my next move?!"
Communicate with her, spend time together, enjoy each other's company and have fun.
All the best, now get out of the thread for a while, lol. Me personally would like for you to trust your own instincts from now on to take the small steps foward, you're over the hardest part in a sense ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
The hardest part of "what to do next" is a matter of gauging expectations and matching them. That is, maybe you want to spend every waking hour with her, but she only wants to see you every other day and would find you clingy (or the reverse, or any other timing mismatch).

It was sort of like that with the first girl I dated. I'm a really affectionate guy, so I wanted to see her every day if I could, or what ever I could get. Yet we were sort of averaging twice a week - which was about the same as when we were just friends. So in that sense I was disappointed by the lack of change to physically being arojnd one another. As consolation, one of us would call the other every day and chat for a pretty long time, but that wasn't really how I'd wanted to do things. In hindsight it must have just been a bad connection, and we really didn't read each other properly - I tried to get into a TV show that she really loved, so that we could watch it together (and I'd have an excuse to spend more time with her) but we only did it once - she had a cold and wouldn't let me sit next to her. In hindsight, maybe it was her way of trying to be nice to me, or maybe she was playing hard to get, yet at the time I felt that she was being somewhat cold to me. Mismatched expectations.

So while you've clearly established your interest and had it more or less returned, there's still work to be done. Again it varies from person to person and relationship to relationship, but now you want to continue to strengthen the bond. I don't know how often you two were seeing each other and talking to each other, but unless it was very frequently, then you may consider upping the amount of interactions. Slowly at first, and it doesn't necessarily have to be an all-the-time thing unless you're both amenable to it (my fiancee and I were and are, although to be honest we both felt that the other was potentially being clingy within the first week of dating ).

Given your writings and actions I'd imagine you're a pretty classy guy, so I'm confident you'll have little to no issues with this phase of the relationship.
Haha, thanks for the tips, guys. Yeah, I'll probably take it slow from here on; I think it's best to do it this way with this girl.

Thanks for everything. I'll keep you guys posted if I have any questions from here on.
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Old 2009-08-29, 11:05   Link #1422
Timdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Wow, I salute you. You not only have some massive courage, but that was slick. Ballsy, philosophical, charming, and well placed all in one. I nearly jumped out of my chair with excitement as I read that. Honestly, did you really need advice from us? I almost feel bad for having written so much to you.

Well, congratulations! Keep us updated on how things go.


I'm glad you think it's a better explanation. Actually, I have a confession to make: like Ascaloth, what you're saying reminds me of myself as I used to be about four, five years ago. I'm a different person now, but sometimes I still find myself falling back toward those feelings and traits. However, I don't feel the anger and frustration that Ascaloth remarked on. Instead, I remember those painful times and want to help pull you out of them. Part of what I say is also for my own benefit, to keep moving me forward and away.

You're a different person than I am and are dealing with a different set of circumstances, but I feel that I can commiserate with a fair bit of what you've written. Perhaps that's what gets me fired up to write such relatively lengthy replies.


I also suffered a drastic shift in academic performance in moving from high school to college. That's a major hit to your confidence, among other things. I also know what it's like to have a hard time connecting with others due to lack of shared interests. That gets into a separate issue though, so I won't touch on that, even though socialization occupied a great amount of my thought process for my first year and a half of my university career.

Your remarks about "zero talent in anything" can't be true. Everyone has some talent, some defining feature. I think it's very helpful to have at least one thing that you can feel is a true strength that's unique to you. For a long time, mine was pretty simple: determination. I was suffering very badly, but because I really believed in my cause (and perhaps because I'm a stubborn fool) I kept at it. I knew that the average person wouldn't have lasted a year, trying to do what I was doing. Is determination a talent? I don't know; perhaps it's more of a personality trait. Yet it's admirable, and I could take pride in it. All you need is that one base, and you can start building on top of it.


When you're really hard on yourself, then the negative comments of others practically doubles the load. If you're not as hard on yourself and you believe that you have skill and value, then you can brush the negative remarks from others away quite easily. So building confidence and finding the value within yourself should likely be a priority, because then the negative remarks from others won't affect you quite so much. And let's be honest - even the best and the brightest get trash-talked by people, no matter how skilled or great you are there'll always be haters and detractors.

My fiancee actually suffers from this as well. She's an academic superstar and the nicest person you'll ever meet (not to mention incredibly beautiful... OK OK, enough bragging) yet she'll often encounter scenarios where she feels like she's the dumbest person in the room, or where she'll feel like she's totally deficient compared to everyone else. Of course none of that's true - she's just very hard on herself, and everyone else is pretty skilled at talking themselves up. I'm no psychologist, but I'm trying an exercise with her. Every day, she has to tell me some good qualities about herself, or tell me about what she did during the day that shows off her skills and good qualities.

The point of the exercise is to overcome that self-critical thought process and to recognize the great things that you're doing. People like her, perhaps you, and to an extent me as well - we often completely ignore that we're doing good things, things that require skill, admirable things; we ignore it and focus on our mistakes, all while focusing on how great everyone else seems to be. It kills your confidence, and when you lack confidence you're probably all the more likely to make mistakes and not take those risks that would let your skill shine. It's practically a vicious cycle.

So that's just a suggestion. If you already keep a diary of sorts then you could easily start doing it there (and it doesn't necessarily have to be an every-day thing, but do it at least once a week). If you don't keep a diary, then consider starting one - if for nothing else than to engage in that sort of exercise. The results won't be apparent right away, but with time you'll be training yourself to focus on your positives. (I can't comment on my fiancee's status because lately she's been weaseling out of the exercise by going to sleep super, super early - sorry I don't have a success story to offer with that )


Sounds like my fiancee, as well. We're working with that one. I'm not exactly sure of what's holding you back, but if it's like my fiancee (and myself, in the past) then it's that you're overthinking a lot of conversations and are too worried about how what you say will cause the other person to perceive you. Confidence helps in this area, and a little bit of practice, perhaps (but confidence is key - without it, if you practice and hit an awkward pause or anything of that sort then you'll just start cutting yourself down. If you're more confident, you'll shrug it off relatively easily and try again).

If you really, really have nothing to say, then start reading CNN or Reuters regularly. Current events are something that you can almost always connect with people on, even if you skip the "entertainment" section. Eventually you collect a pool of enough information that you can even lightly grasp at a number of conversation topics and make small talk over them, even without really knowing about them or being overly interested in them. Once your foot is in the door through small talk you may be able to find better conversation topics, or suggest your own topics - and then it's the other person's turn to make small talk (or if they really know what you're talking about, great! There's a compatibility).


For me it was roughly midway through college. However, my circumstances may not match yours. I went across the country for college, and I didn't know anyone there - not a single person. That made things really difficult, especially since I'm not particularly fond of alcohol, don't find drunk stories amusing, and wasn't big on the party scene (those all being elements that seemingly everyone was into, and that everyone was using to meet and socialize over). That, and I had that crushingly low self-esteem, nor was I particularly personable. After a year and a half of really obsessing over soclalization, watching others, pondering the whole socialization process - I eventually built a circle of friends. Yet around that time my friendships really sky rocketed in number (largely with girls), which leads me to believe that I must have hit on something and changed something about myself that caused me to seek out friendships and really hook into them. I certainly felt much more confident, yet having friends and continually making more (especially with the ladies) helped with the confidence, also.

About a semester after that friendship stuff started, I experienced my first dating (not with any of the girls I'd previously befriended, but with a girl who saw me at random and then sought me out).

The people you encounter are important and that all largely happens by chance, but there are things you can do to shift things in your favor. I've mentioned this study on this forum numerous times before, so if you've heard it forgive me, but I think it illustrates an important point. Read carefully:

There was a study performed to see if the element of "luck" was real. People were gathered and classified as either believing that they were "lucky" or that they were "unlucky." For the first study, the participants were instructed to find how many times a certain word appeared throughout a newspaper. However, there was a trick placed within the newspaper: on the second (maybe third) page, within an advertisement, the study creators had written something along the lines of "you can stop counting right now - the number of times that {the word} appears is 13." The majority of people who considered themselves lucky found this shortcut - most of those who thought themselves unlucky missed it and kept right on counting. In other exercises it was also found that people who thought themselves lucky were more likely to make eye contact with strangers (and perhaps hold the gaze a bit longer, and smile), which in turn was more likely to put them into social situations. It was surmised that those who consider themselves lucky aren't actually "lucky" - they're just more observant (leading them to find things that others overlooked), and they're more likely to enter into social situations (which in turn would give them social connections from which they could draw other opportunities).

The focus there is largely on the idea that making eye contact and smiling can draw others to interact with you, and you can take it from there. Of course, you need to be able to make small talk sufficiently to get anywhere! And what does small talk (as well as being willing to draw others to you and/or reach out to them) require? Confidence, a base belief that you're someone worth talking to and someone who has something to offer.

It's always possible that the people around you really aren't the types you'd be compatible with, but it's also possible that you're being too selective (which could occur by virtue of your being uncomfortable with people who you perceive as being too different from you - "too different" being a very subjective definition, of course, and something that you can change).


When all is said and done, there probably is no shortcut for all of this. I'm giving you snippets of my experiences and the conclusions that I reached, but you'll likely need to suffer through it all and reach your own conclusions regardless. Just take heart in knowing that Ascaloth (I presume) and I were in a very, very similar situation as you, but we made it out of that forest. It can be done, but you'll have to work at it. (Or maybe not - tomorrow maybe you'll run into someone who'll cause all of the necessary changes to occur in you effortlessly. Who knows? I wouldn't hold out for that to happen, of course.) Feel free to keep asking questions or writing about things you'd like commented on, but just remember that, for all of our advice, the change is going to have to come from within you, and it probably won't come easy. At least, I wouldn't say that it did, for me. I'll be rooting for you, though.




And to think that Narona and I had some vicious debates in the past... *sniff* Maybe those French girls in the neighboring research lab are rubbing off on me and having a good affect?

I think I sort of understand the whole confidence thing now.

I'm also starting to think I've been hanging around with the wrong girls. A lot of them are very superficial and very conformist, so maybe I should find new ones...
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Old 2009-08-29, 15:22   Link #1423
Kakashi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I tried to get into a TV show that she really loved, so that we could watch it together (and I'd have an excuse to spend more time with her) but we only did it once - she had a cold and wouldn't let me sit next to her. In hindsight, maybe it was her way of trying to be nice to me, or maybe she was playing hard to get, yet at the time I felt that she was being somewhat cold to me. Mismatched expectations.
Brings back memories of me trying to watch "Gossip Girl" so that I could talk to my previous girlfriend about something. Countless times I invested hours into some big grand scheme to impress her only to be brushed away or given a strange look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Haha, thanks for the tips, guys. Yeah, I'll probably take it slow from here on; I think it's best to do it this way with this girl.

Thanks for everything. I'll keep you guys posted if I have any questions from here on.
Good luck. I'll just echo everyone else and say...take it slow, and keep it smooth like you have done. And be receptive to any cues...yeah...girls hate it when you miss their cues, especially when they're even remotely sexual. I really got down on myself when I overlooked my girls suggestive one-liners and missed out. Although that really depends on the type of girl.
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Old 2009-08-29, 15:46   Link #1424
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
Brings back memories of me trying to watch "Gossip Girl" so that I could talk to my previous girlfriend about something. Countless times I invested hours into some big grand scheme to impress her only to be brushed away or given a strange look.
There, there *pat pat* They probably don't realize that we're spending a lot of time and going through great lengths for them, with those sorts of things. Yet all the same, they probably try to do similar things for us, and perhaps we don't recognize it, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
And be receptive to any cues...yeah...girls hate it when you miss their cues, especially when they're even remotely sexual. I really got down on myself when I overlooked my girls suggestive one-liners and missed out. Although that really depends on the type of girl.
There, there *pat pat* I had that happen to me, too. She did more than just a one-liner, but I'm either really dense or a true gentleman (or a combo) and didn't pick up on it. Ah, maybe that's where things went wrong... well, it made for a good story, at least. My friends got some rich laughs out of that one.
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Old 2009-08-29, 15:50   Link #1425
Zetsubo
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Heh... This reminds me of that awful 2CH phenom "Densha Otaku"

Anyway.... Ascaloth enjoy her company and "ganbarre"
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Old 2009-08-30, 01:21   Link #1426
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Heh... This reminds me of that awful 2CH phenom "Densha Otaku"
It was Densha Otoko, actually (電車男 if you can read Japanese - "the train man"), but it was about a guy who was an otaku and met a girl he wanted to date. It was a novel supposedly based on real-life events, and a TV drama was made out of it. I think they were going to make an anime as well, and a manga... either way, it's my absolute favorite Japanese drama. I felt that it was a very touching series (not to mention inspirational, as I could connect well with the main character).

I can highly recommend it.
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Old 2009-08-30, 03:02   Link #1427
0utf0xZer0
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Heh... This reminds me of that awful 2CH phenom "Densha Otaku"

Anyway.... Ascaloth enjoy her company and "ganbarre"
It would remind me more of Densha Otoko if she discovered his posts at some point. I remember that being a major plot point in the TV series...
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Old 2009-08-30, 05:20   Link #1428
Miko Miko
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OMG.. I made him cry

God.. I made him cry last night, he tried to win me over by crying. Two of my friends are still, no matter what I say, in constant competition to win me. I am not a prize!!! Friend 1 was trying to hold my hand and I was like wtf? So I walked away from him. and Friend 2 got a bit upset so I pulled him to one side and this is how the conversation went:
Me: "What do you like so much about me?"
Him: "Everything"
Me: "Do you honestly think I want to be with you? I have rejected you like 20 times already!"
Him: "I don't know"
Me: "You're making this really difficult but all I am going to say is I would never be your girlfriend, I don't find you in the least bit attractive and to be honest I don't want a boyfriend!"

He started crying. I must admit I felt guilty, and I have a feeling he'll do the same thing tonight. Do you think it was a bit harsh?

I am spending to much time in this thread lately
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Old 2009-08-30, 05:58   Link #1429
Ascaloth
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko Miko View Post
OMG.. I made him cry

God.. I made him cry last night, he tried to win me over by crying. Two of my friends are still, no matter what I say, in constant competition to win me. I am not a prize!!! Friend 1 was trying to hold my hand and I was like wtf? So I walked away from him. and Friend 2 got a bit upset so I pulled him to one side and this is how the conversation went:
Me: "What do you like so much about me?"
Him: "Everything"
Me: "Do you honestly think I want to be with you? I have rejected you like 20 times already!"
Him: "I don't know"
Me: "You're making this really difficult but all I am going to say is I would never be your girlfriend, I don't find you in the least bit attractive and to be honest I don't want a boyfriend!"

He started crying. I must admit I felt guilty, and I have a feeling he'll do the same thing tonight. Do you think it was a bit harsh?

I am spending to much time in this thread lately
Good job, Imouto-chan.

Right, now all you have to do is not become soft-hearted at the last stretch; don't let his crying sway you, hammer the final nail in his coffin if he forces you to absolutely have to.

Sure, it's harsh and all....but I hardly think that's a bad thing. Seriously, I think it's freakin' disgusting that a big boy like him would cry over a rejection; what a wimp. You don't wanna be with a guy like that. So reject him all the way.

And spending too much time in this thread lately? You and me both, Imouto-chan.
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Old 2009-08-30, 07:11   Link #1430
Miko Miko
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Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Good job, Imouto-chan.

Right, now all you have to do is not become soft-hearted at the last stretch; don't let his crying sway you, hammer the final nail in his coffin if he forces you to absolutely have to.

Sure, it's harsh and all....but I hardly think that's a bad thing. Seriously, I think it's freakin' disgusting that a big boy like him would cry over a rejection; what a wimp. You don't wanna be with a guy like that. So reject him all the way.

And spending too much time in this thread lately? You and me both, Imouto-chan.
Thanks! I am going to keep doing my best! Just can't help feel a little bad.

Thanks for your constant help Ascaloth!


EDIT: Who gave me neg rep? Pfft..
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Old 2009-08-30, 11:17   Link #1431
Fome
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Miko Miko, guys that watch too much anime think that persistence wins the girl, even when the girl has no intent to ever be with them. These guys need a reality check. So you are helping them
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Old 2009-08-30, 11:42   Link #1432
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Fome View Post
Miko Miko, guys that watch too much anime think that persistence wins the girl, even when the girl has no intent to ever be with them. These guys need a reality check. So you are helping them
Persistence does win over girls. It's just some people follow the wrong type of persistence: annoyance. If only they learned to be persistent with their physical and personality development, things would work out.
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Old 2009-08-30, 13:09   Link #1433
whitepearl
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Persistence can win girls over but when the persistence crosses the line into annoyance, the girl is more inclined to say no.

When I was younger, I didn't know the distinction between persistence and annoyance. With more age, and (failed) experiences, the line becomes more distinct.
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Old 2009-08-31, 00:11   Link #1434
UltimaWolf
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Well...this doesn't really have to do with advice or anything, I just figured I'd post it since I don't really have anyone else to tell this to this late...but basicly my girlfriend is starting the more advanced college courses for her profession that she chose, and we already discussed before school started, how it would be difficult for us to be together and she wanted me to not be with her, since I wouldn't be able to be with her as much as I 'should be' (her words). But I told her that I wanted to be with her regardless how hard it would be and that we could get through this, and all summer was fine and wonderful. (She took no classes though)

Well fast forward to the present, school started last week and she did have alot to get done and study for, but stupidly on my part I still tried to see her when I was able to. She also has been asking me to come see her aswell when I could so it has been pretty mutual.

Anyways today she wanted to talk to me about somthing, but she said she would talk to me about it after work. Well not too long ago she texted me what it was about....basicly it was that she still really loves me, but that she has been really distracted cause of me and is behind, that its her fault and she cant have me in her life right now, and that this will be easier for awhile since she needs to worry about school right now...and that she is sorry....Which I completely understand that, I have always been behind her and her school and how important it is to her. She also for some reason took me off her myspace friends list aswell, which I guess is kinda serious.

I guess kinda my question is what should I do? I asked if we could still be together after this semester atleast and she said she doesnt know right now, but I don't know what I should do since we both work at the same place, so its not like I won't get to see her. Should I just try to be friends and keep my distance as much as possible so I don't distract or bug her? Don't get me wrong I am really sad and down about this, I do love her and want to be with her so I'm kinda worried it won't work out now...I really just don't know what to do...
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Old 2009-08-31, 07:08   Link #1435
Miko Miko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
Miko Miko, guys that watch too much anime think that persistence wins the girl, even when the girl has no intent to ever be with them. These guys need a reality check. So you are helping them
Yay! Persistance totally doesn't win..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Persistence does win over girls. It's just some people follow the wrong type of persistence: annoyance. If only they learned to be persistent with their physical and personality development, things would work out.
Persistance definately doesn't win! depends on the girl really. Persistance is like force.. I wouldn't force my physical and personality development, people can assume it's not going to work therefore avoiding it completely.

I think.
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Old 2009-08-31, 07:26   Link #1436
Cipher
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Persistance definately doesn't win! depends on the girl really. Persistance is like force.. I wouldn't force my physical and personality development, people can assume it's not going to work therefore avoiding it completely.

I think.
Persistence is not forcing uncomfortable things to happen---that would result into an imbalance and therefore would definitely not work. Persistence is perseverance or continuously working in order to accomplish something regardless of level of perseverance. One can be persistently yet slowly work towards a goal. Believe or not, everyone is persistently mentally developing---all subconsciously. Any person, as long as the entire required traits of attraction are known, can be taken---emotionally.
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Old 2009-08-31, 07:44   Link #1437
Miko Miko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Persistence is not forcing uncomfortable things to happen---that would result into an imbalance and therefore would definitely not work. Persistence is perseverance or continuously working in order to accomplish something regardless of level of perseverance. One can be persistently yet slowly work towards a goal. Believe or not, everyone is persistently mentally developing---all subconsciously. Any person, as long as the entire required traits of attraction are known, can be taken---emotionally.
Oh.. I get it now, but I still think persevering is trying to force what you want. You can work hard and persevere to help someone or get something you want but to win a person over.. I just don't think it's right it takes both sides to get something out of it. Not one person doing the work to make them like them without realising it.
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Old 2009-08-31, 08:19   Link #1438
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Miko Miko View Post
Oh.. I get it now, but I still think persevering is trying to force what you want. You can work hard and persevere to help someone or get something you want but to win a person over.. I just don't think it's right it takes both sides to get something out of it. Not one person doing the work to make them like them without realising it.
You believe that people like each other because of their innate personalities and behaviors? People think change is a bit difficult, but the truth is it occurs naturally. When a person tries to become a more desired developed self, he/she undergoes change in a way that it creates a new side to his/her own self-identification. Let's take the physical temporary change of make-up or dresses as an example. We all know from experience that women become more desirable(by majority) when they're properly cosmetically modified----they're purpose might consist of social wanting or interest---but even this "simple" change results into her own increasing level of desirability. Persistence may be as lowly powered as this simple exercise.
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Old 2009-08-31, 08:32   Link #1439
Miko Miko
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Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
You believe that people like each other because of their innate personalities and behaviors? People think change is a bit difficult, but the truth is it occurs naturally. When a person tries to become a more desired developed self, he/she undergoes change in a way that it creates a new side to his/her own self-identification. Let's take the physical temporary change of make-up or dresses as an example. We all know from experience that women become more desirable(by majority) when they're properly cosmetically modified----they're purpose might consist of social wanting or interest---but even this "simple" change results into her own increasing level of desirability. Persistence may be as lowly powered as this simple exercise.
Saying that, I guess you're right. I can't think of a good reply anyway.

and OMG, I saw stalker-guy and guess what!?!

He didn't touch me. He was just normal with me. He didn't even offer me a hug.
He is so out of character *is happy for now* I think I may have reached the next stage.
Or do you think he got the message and backed off?
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Old 2009-08-31, 08:37   Link #1440
synaesthetic
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If he's not intentionally being a jerk and is perceptive of body language or nonverbal communication, it's likely that he took the hint.
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