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Old 2006-05-31, 16:57   Link #41
bayoab
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
If airing these shows impacted DVD sales, you'd see lamentations to that effect within Japan - but they're a tool for upping the DVD sales. In effect (ignoring other legal quibbles), fansubs are the equivalent of broadcast airing in the states --- something that would never happen because the audience is too small for the networks to attract advertising and it saves the studio a lot of advertising dollars (any real argument against fansubs would have to factor that in).
Yes, cause usually, the DVD in japan has something more for the consumer than the TV airing. In Japan, it is not hard to get a series on TV.

Also, if you haven't noticed, US studio's dont exactly advertise in a large way beside magazines. But, if the series aired on tv, they would actually get money from outside advertisers. There are actually advertisers who are interested in the anime crowd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
And you never wondered why?
No, not really cause I from what little of the numbers get spilled, its because they sell poorly for the most part.


Quote:
My point is that most of the R1 labels are ridiculously dishonest indeed, Geneon being one of the few exceptions from the rule (which is one of the reasons why most of my R1 sales go to Geneon).
ADV is the really only super dishonest one. The rest of them will basically say the same things off the record as they will on.

Quote:
Okay. Go to your local anime shopowner and ask him if a run is setting in on Tactics (which was a mediocre show at best with a few fansubs). By ADV's logic, it should be a hit. I predict a dud.
We don't have any local stores here, only the big boys and they definitely will not comment. Manga is usually pretty good about telling how series sell. I actually did know someone online who ran an anime store and said fansubs were killing them because people would just go "Oh, I can download that online."

Quote:
Here you're undermining your own logic perfectly: I'm no American, but isn't Gash Bell running on CN? Just like Inuyasha (see below). Of course TV airings have tremendous media reach and create publicity like nuts. They're like fansubs on steroids. If "free" exposure through fansubs would be harmful for sales, then all shows which air on American TV should be the complete death of the DVD sales.

And guess what? It's the OPPOSITE! The DVD sales of shows on TV are among the BEST and HIGHEST. Which is one of the strongest bits of evidence in _my_ favor. These shows sell well BECAUSE people learned to love the shows, and REGARDLESS of the fact that they've seen it for free on TV before. Because it's a purchase out of love, for ARCHIVE reasons. They want to OWN the show they've seen before.

If ADV's (and obviously your) reasoning was correct, the DVD sales of American TV shows should be in the crapper. Alas, that's not how it is.
Actually, you completely missed the point and twisted it to fit your own things. You first introduced something which was not my point. Your question was something that was not fansubbed that did well in DVD sales. My response was something that had more people watching the first TV episode than something that had more viewers in its first airing than the total number of downloads the series got.
Secondly. Viz MAKES money from it airing on TV. Viz does not make money from either of these series getting fansubbed.

Viz does not lose money by airing it on TV. Viz does lose money because the only audiance that sees it on fansubs is the 10% hardcore buyers who are less likely to buy a DVD to begin with. By increasing the audiance, of course you get more buyers. That is simple economics. My point is that if you increase an audiance among people who are NOT likely to buy a DVD, then you are not increasing the sales at all.

Your argument is "OMG Exposure = sales" which is ALSO the same false logic as 1 download = 1 lost sale. 1 exposure != 1 new sale. The actual numbers are something like 100 exposures = 1 new sale through fansubs. (Random guess) But this depends on the quality of the show and other immeasurable things.

Quote:
That's making no sense whatsoever. You CANNOT watch the dubs unless you have purchased the DVD first (or watched it on TV). And you'll hardly contest the fact that the TV shows have extremely high sales.
No, you just misunderstood what I said. My point is that people who listen to dubs are statistically more likely to buy a DVD than those who don't. (This is very easy math to check. 85% of people buy it for the DUB and most people who watch fansubs hate dubs.)

I can also name shows that got TV exposure and gotten shit sales because the series sucked: Reign

Quote:
Of course they do. They let us gauge how big the market potential is. Huge download numbers don't automatically mean huge sales (the show must be good too). But bad download numbers almost irreversibly doom a show to commercial failure.
There is lots of other things that bittorrent can't tell you. I do not think bittorrent would even come close to showing how popular death note is already. Also, there is a noise factor in bittorrent that has to be removed before anything can be analyzed. It is not just "omg, 20k dls, we can sell it!". I actually think MB has hit on a bunch of series that the bittorrent numbers understated how well it would sell.

Quote:
Most definitely. So you'd prefer to let customers purchase crap blindly? In other words, it's the fansub's fault that crap shows can't be sold anymore by flashy covers and positive pseudo-reviews? My heart is bleeding for the poor R1 labels.
No, I am not saying that fans should buy blindly, but there are tons of other ways to find out about shows that are not fansubs. How do you choose which movies to go and see? Word of mouth? Reviews? trailers? Previews? You don't download it and then go "Okay, I'm going to go see this one."

Also, if you had to pay say $1 for each episode you download over bittorrent, you will see how good a show really is in the download numbers.
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Old 2006-05-31, 17:40   Link #42
LytHka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
4) By my purchasing power, I'm a lot more important to a corporation than someone who spends nothing. Whats *your* purchasing value?
If you really want to know, I've hit $450 this month, and reaching $600 the next in this year's cycle from last november (that's excluding all the custom charges + 20% tax on some items). I'm unemployed, I worked part-time this year only for the last week and I'm still in school. I don't leech on my parents' money, I only spend what I get from my lame scollarship. Probably not that much in the eyes of the industry, but I take pride in spending 95% of all my incomes on the industry. But hey, if you really want to interrogate everyone about their "contributions" why not make a thread about it? It is a great way to boost off a person's ego, I'm sure you felt great as I just did.
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Old 2006-05-31, 17:51   Link #43
Mentar
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Quote:
I actually did know someone online who ran an anime store and said fansubs were killing them because people would just go "Oh, I can download that online."
Certainly, those people exist too. And if it wasn't for fansubs, they wouldn't even be in the shop in the first place - and buy other shows, or mangas, or plamos, or whatever.

Quote:
Actually, you completely missed the point and twisted it to fit your own things.
No no, my friend. You were promoting the whining gospel of ADV that fansubs were killing dvd sales. In other words, the easy availability for free somehow "taints" the people and keeps them from buying shows on DVD which they would otherwise do. I challenged this notion and asked you to name a show which did well without fansubs.

And there you made the mistake to go to shows on American TV.

Quote:
You first introduced something which was not my point. Your question was something that was not fansubbed that did well in DVD sales. My response was something that had more people watching the first TV episode than something that had more viewers in its first airing than the total number of downloads the series got.
And by doing so, you disproved your own allegation. If it was indeed easy availability for free (the "fansub effect", so to say) which caused people to avoid DVD purchases, then logically, all shows on American TV (which has a much bigger media reach) would have even worse sales than fansub-only ones. TV is fansubs on steroids - hell they are even dubbed to begin with! If the implicit theory was true that easy availability for free harmed DVD sales, then TV must be harmful. But it isn't - just the opposite. Hard facts.

Quote:
Secondly. Viz MAKES money from it airing on TV. Viz does not make money from either of these series getting fansubbed.
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue on hand. Of course, Viz makes money from airing on TV. But it also helps them make money with DVD sales - and this is what it's all about.

Quote:
Viz does lose money because the only audiance that sees it on fansubs is the 10% hardcore buyers who are less likely to buy a DVD to begin with.
For someone without any hard data about it, you certainly make alot of claims. The anime fans I know _all_ watch fansubs and they _all_ spend alot of money on their anime hobby. But I'm sure with your extensive knowledge about anime fans who do NOT watch fansubs (how do you know them, by the way) you'll disprove the logical and obvious.

Quote:
By increasing the audiance, of course you get more buyers. That is simple economics. My point is that if you increase an audiance among people who are NOT likely to buy a DVD, then you are not increasing the sales at all.
I think that your theory that there are two kinds of groups - one who DOES watch fansubs and almost never buys DVD - and one who does NOT watch fansubs and carry the anime industry - is a pile of horse dung.

Quote:
Your argument is "OMG Exposure = sales" which is ALSO the same false logic as 1 download = 1 lost sale. 1 exposure != 1 new sale. The actual numbers are something like 100 exposures = 1 new sale through fansubs. (Random guess) But this depends on the quality of the show and other immeasurable things.
Drop the numbers, you're clueless, about the ratio, as we all are. But exposure NEVER hurts sales. That's what the evidence from the TV-based anime indicates.

Quote:
I can also name shows that got TV exposure and gotten shit sales because the series sucked: Reign
Yeah, so? Of course crap shows sell harder. But for some crazy reason you seem to believe that less fansubs or other form of free availability would somehow increase sales of it. And this is crock - unless you count those poor sods who buy it blindly without knowing what they're getting themselves into. Here, Fansubs (and TV) help customers to avoid poor choices.

Quote:
No, I am not saying that fans should buy blindly, but there are tons of other ways to find out about shows that are not fansubs. How do you choose which movies to go and see? Word of mouth? Reviews? trailers? Previews? You don't download it and then go "Okay, I'm going to go see this one."
Again, you forget that in modern times, R1 releases aren't enablers anymore. I don't want them to be, because I don't want to shell out major bucks for crap. If that hurts the industry, too bad for them. It rewards the good shows and hurts the bad. If that was possible for the movies aswell, I'd definitely prefer that to the current situation. In the anime world, the customer is in a better position. Good.

Quote:
Also, if you had to pay say $1 for each episode you download over bittorrent, you will see how good a show really is in the download numbers.
The anime world is certainly much better for the customer than other content types. More choice, less exploitation. But it was fansubs and bittorrent which grew the anime market to nowaday's size. Just look at the ridiculous DVD release list of the next 1-2 months on animeondvd.com, and then repeat the BS from ADV and others how badly they're hurt by fansubs. Gawd.

The problems of these labels are homemade. And after all their antics, I can only say that if ADV should ever file for chapter11, I won't shed bitter tears.
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Old 2006-05-31, 17:56   Link #44
Vexx
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You keep making interesting assumptions ... I wasn't bragging but pointing out that paying customers have weight with companies, therefore if a large enough pack of the paying customers are unhappy and speak up, then companies will respond if they can't weasel out some other way ...
Since you're spending that much we both have a lot more impact than the leeching eyeballs. Our experiences may just differ, most anime fans I know of are either 20/30-somethings who "buy a lot of stuff" or highschooler/college types who "buy what they can".
Plus I'm dealing with network executive dimwits in my country who shriek that the consumer is stealing if they leave the room while a commercial is on or if they "fastforward" .... so a combative consumer is necessary to keep them in line.
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Old 2006-05-31, 18:47   Link #45
LytHka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
You keep making interesting assumptions...
Yeah... I know. Here's another one. Read below.
Quote:
paying customers have weight with companies, therefore if a large enough pack of the paying customers are unhappy and speak up, then companies will respond if they can't weasel out some other way...
Let me just refresh your memory in what kind of a minority you and me both really are:

You have the overall global non-Japanese fandom. Most of this fandom watches anime on their TV, watching crap, mostly mainstream shows. Putting the East Asian VCD craze aside, you have the TV crowd moving on to DVDs and onto fansubs. Like Mentar said, most fans buy DVDs of shows that they've already watched. Those shows would probably be the ones from [AS], other CN airings and other TV channels (like the german RTL2, italian Rai and so forth), then you have the first of the minorities of fans who watch fansubs. For finding these, you either need people from the community to tell you about them, but because the offline communities (for ex. in anime clubs) are very much square (at least that's what I heard about the U.S. and German anime clubs), they won't give out the details, or you'll need to frequent on the internet. So, this little crowd of fansub maniacs is another niché market to which the R1 companies (many times under the influence of drugs) try to sell what they've licensed.
The thing with most fans who buy DVDs is that they buy "the classics" first, things like movies or platinum box editions, and when they get to college, most of their wallets dry up. So, as students, they watch anime through fansubs and somehow the localization companies still manage to pull through. Anime distributors are probably still breathing because of old rereleases anyway.
Can this really be a market worthy of translated first pressed anime releases? When we're talking modern anime, moe (+50% of the Japanese anime/manga/light novel/game "otaku" market) and so forth, do you really think that these modern anime genres have a marketable place in the Western society? In my honest opinion, NO. Your own money has some weight, but you won't find many others who support the new genres financially (most of the fansubbing scene is still shounen oriented... *cough*stubbornbastards*cough*). Some, of course, do in their "hearts", but monetarily... no.
So, has this been a mind refreshing lesson about just how much our little modern anime community, which only exists online, is willing to shell out for the modern anime industry? Because of our small numbers, we probably wouldn't be able to cover the translation costs of such first pressed releases.
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Old 2006-05-31, 18:52   Link #46
Shinoto
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You know they stated that Fansubs do help the industry of anime. It promoted it a lot. There is going to be less huge run away break out hits but more solid hits in the long run. There isnt going to be like another DBZ or Cowboy bebop that comes out of no where to be huge hits. But there are going to be many more solid and sucess hits. Also its gives them an idea of what series will do good.

In the end I am going to do both as simple as that. When I can buy like The Gundam Wing Anime collection sets for 40 bucks each. A nice deal and even on par with most AMERICAN TV SHOWS PRICE RANGE. NOT 200 DOLLARS.
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Old 2006-05-31, 18:57   Link #47
dan88
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At the London Expo last weekend during the UK anime industry panel (featuring the heads of the main UK anime player: ADV, MVM and Beez) someone said (I forget who) that US anime DVD sales were not the best indicator of DVD sales in the UK. They suggested that European sales of anime DVD were a better predictor of potential UK sales.

This would also suggest that the large numbers of people in the USA downloading anime Fansubs may skew the numbers and make it harder to apply directly to the UK market.



Fansubs probably have greater promotional importance in the UK as there is no dedicated Anime channels in the UK, even on UK subscription cable and satellite services.

Hopefully this will one day change and there is some anime on TV. Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh does get shown on early morning children's TV and in the past there have been a couple of anime series shown on late night TV. However currently RaptureTV (small music and X-sport satellite only TV channel) shows Full Metal Alchemist and Wolf's Rain and the Jetix (satellite channel) has just announced that they will show both Naruto and Oban Star Racers later this year.

Of course the UK's "Neo" Anime magazine is anime's best promoter.



Thus fansubs keep Anime part of my daily life and a major source of entertainment. There are lots of other ways I can spend my money but there are currently lots of animes I'd love to buy. I know what anime series are being released, and if they are any good (imho), and I'm now a regular anime DVD purchaser, which is a little bit of a financial drain.

It keeps me interested in the anime community and drags me along to anime conventions and expos where my money can be targeted. I would now recognise the guys from ADV, MVM and Beez in the street and sort of feel guilty if I don't support them via DVD purchases, which is not something I would say about faceless/nameless Hollywood.

It can be silly and random little things too: like the VA of Naruto being friendly and thus you start to hope that her part in the sequel to Bruce Almighty goes well and that Naruto is a huge success for Jetix and that there are thousands of young Naruto fanboys and fangirls spawned.

You could even say Fansubs make me care about anime and the anime industry.
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Old 2006-05-31, 20:36   Link #48
bayoab
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
No no, my friend. You were promoting the whining gospel of ADV that fansubs were killing dvd sales. In other words, the easy availability for free somehow "taints" the people and keeps them from buying shows on DVD which they would otherwise do. I challenged this notion and asked you to name a show which did well without fansubs.

And there you made the mistake to go to shows on American TV.
First of all, that is not ADV's point because their linear channel is free to some. Their point is the unrestricted availibility of the series for free hurts DVD sales. (This is especially true in other markets.)

Second of all, I do not preach the word of ADV as I do not believe their theory is correct. I know exactly how you argue these things from mulitple other threads and you love to twist things like this.


Quote:
For someone without any hard data about it, you certainly make alot of claims. The anime fans I know _all_ watch fansubs and they _all_ spend alot of money on their anime hobby. But I'm sure with your extensive knowledge about anime fans who do NOT watch fansubs (how do you know them, by the way) you'll disprove the logical and obvious.
There is this thing in this world called logic and it is a very powerful thing. How do you think the majority of people who buy DVDs for dubs get to preview the dubs before they buy them? It certainly is not fansubs. Yes there are those who get th show as a fansub and then buy it afterwards and listen to the dub, but every time the companies have taken statistics, they have clearly pointed to a schism between fansub watchers and dub watchers.

I know tons of fansub watchers who spend 0 on it. They are all over IRC. You tell them to buy something and they just go to another channel and download the DVD rips.

And you ask how I know about them? Go to a convention or two or ten and sit on lines, in panels, in the dealers room, etc and you hear them. Also, go read the animeondvd boards and see how much they rely on things such as word of mouth or other people who do watch raws.

Quote:
I think that your theory that there are two kinds of groups - one who DOES watch fansubs and almost never buys DVD - and one who does NOT watch fansubs and carry the anime industry - is a pile of horse dung.
Because you invented that as my theory to fit your theory. It's called generalizing as these are the two majority groups. The minority of fansub watchers buy the majority of the DVDs among fansub watchers. There is no point in explaining what 15 groups do when only 2 groups matter. According to your logic, everyone who watches fansubs buys something.


Quote:
Drop the numbers, you're clueless, about the ratio, as we all are. But exposure NEVER hurts sales. That's what the evidence from the TV-based anime indicates.
Actually, that was done from some pure math. The number of sales of the Inu Yasha DVDs is public (1 million for 30 discs, ~30000 a disc.). As is the number of downloads (the tracker says 15k on the mass pack alone, i know there were at least 50k before the mass pack) and the number of TV watchers (say 200k from googling for "ratings delivery adult swim"). This says that ~260k total viewers with 10% of the total DVD audiance just watching the sub. (Ultra conservative guess from the VHS years.) This would mean that 3k of 50k or about 6 in 100 of fansub watchers bought the disc. I originally used 110k as the BT numbers which would bring this to 2 in 100. Oh wow, at worst 5 whole people more. (Note, 200k into 27k is 1 in 10.)
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Old 2006-05-31, 20:59   Link #49
rooboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raphaël
I was joking, basically.
Seems I failed to make everyone laugh, here.... *sighs
Well, _I_ thought it was funny.

Actually, I find this whole _thread_ hilarious.


EDIT: On-topic, I imagine that fansubs have a net zero effect on sales right now. At some point if they became more rampant it would probably be an economic factor. Of the ten real life anime fans I know personally, I'm the only one who watches fansubs. One other watches bootleg anime. The other eight have never watched non-dubbed anime.

Actually, I guess I know twelve if I get to count my wife and child. Both of them have seen fansubbed series (my son has seen Bleach and Keroro Gunso and my wife has seen Ouran High School Host Club and Bleach), but only because I showed it to them. Neither likes fansubs, and both would much prefer to have seen the shows they did see, dubbed.

I think we tend to forget (probably because animesuki is such a relatively large community) that we're a small piece of a niche industry.

EDIT 2: Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.
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Last edited by rooboy; 2006-05-31 at 21:11.
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Old 2006-05-31, 23:31   Link #50
Orchunter226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy666
Well, _I_ thought it was funny.

Actually, I find this whole _thread_ hilarious.
Yea this thread is pretty funny :P

How many people do you think really watch fansubs? I can't imagine them hurting anime companies that much. Even if 50,000 people download a series, that is still only a very very small proportion of the population, and of anime viewers. So even if 1 download = 1 lost sale, they would be losing money but not as much as it seems.

The majority of people here in the US (at least of all the people I've met) are exposed to anime through television or when they are browsing at suncoast, best buy, etc. Very view people really rely on fansubs for their anime.

So the question is: Are fansubs, in actuality, a moot point to the companies?
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Old 2006-06-01, 00:00   Link #51
Arimfe
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Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
And my main point is that publicity of a show is the key to DVD sales. Contrary to what ADV tries to make people believe with their propaganda I think it's evident that DVDs sell well when the show is KNOWN to people.
I strongly agree what Mentar have said. If it weren't for fansubs, I wouldn't even know about anime at all, let alone buying dvds.

And at the end of the line, I believe that if fansubs never existed in the first place, the dvd companies wouldn't be selling as many dvds as they have done to this day. They wouldn't have sold me all the dvds on my shelf, that's for sure.
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Old 2006-06-01, 02:36   Link #52
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orchunter226
How many people do you think really watch fansubs? I can't imagine them hurting anime companies that much. Even if 50,000 people download a series, that is still only a very very small proportion of the population, and of anime viewers. So even if 1 download = 1 lost sale, they would be losing money but not as much as it seems.
200k watch naruto on BT. The average show gets about 20k bt downloads. And R1 anime DVDs are lucky if they sell 50k copies per disc. 200k is OMGWTFBBQ land.
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Old 2006-06-01, 06:39   Link #53
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
First of all, that is not ADV's point because their linear channel is free to some. Their point is the unrestricted availibility of the series for free hurts DVD sales. (This is especially true in other markets.)
That's the same thing. The ADV linear channel is a complete non-factor. Unless you attribute to fansubs/dvdrips some mythical infernal powers which taint the mind of people possessing them, their relevant property is the easy and free availability. The implicit and logical conclusion would be that easy and free availability would have to be harmful to DVD sales. However, empirical data proves (via sales numbers of especially easy-free TV shows) that this blanket claim is FALSE.

Quote:
Second of all, I do not preach the word of ADV as I do not believe their theory is correct. I know exactly how you argue these things from mulitple other threads and you love to twist things like this.
Cut your sniveling and read your first sentences in this thread. Your OWN words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
Completely incorrect. Companies have explicity said multiple times that fansubs have killed sales of some series.

Quoth Industry Rep: We look and see it got 50k bittorent downloads and we look at the sales and there is definitely a gap. (This is paraphrased of an exact quote with some editing, he did not explicity mention bittorrent.)
Now if you suddenly turn around and claim that this was just ADV's opinion and not yours, why did you open up with "Completely incorrect", huh? Don't blame ME for misunderstanding your positions when you're lacking consistency and precision in your own statements. And just for the record, even after rereading your posts two more times, I'm still unsure what YOUR theory is, then.

Quote:
How do you think the majority of people who buy DVDs for dubs get to preview the dubs before they buy them? It certainly is not fansubs.
"Certainly"? How do you know that? And are you trying to construe some wacky position "dub watchers = good, sub watchers = bad"? I'm just asking before you cry once more about me "twisting" things.

Quote:
Yes there are those who get th show as a fansub and then buy it afterwards and listen to the dub, but every time the companies have taken statistics, they have clearly pointed to a schism between fansub watchers and dub watchers.
Again, whether they buy the DVDs to listen to the dub, or to put them away on their shelves shrinkwrapped is TOTALLY irrelevant to the labels. What counts for them is the SALE itself, not what people do with it.

But please provide a link to these statistics you're talking about. I'm certainly willing to learn.

Quote:
I know tons of fansub watchers who spend 0 on it. They are all over IRC. You tell them to buy something and they just go to another channel and download the DVD rips.
Do people like this exist? Certainly, but they're much more rare than you're painting them - at least in MY experience. Even assuming that they are, that alone doesn't prove that fansubs hurt DVD sales at all. This is the only group which negatively effects DVD sales:

(-) : People who would have purchased a DVD, but refrain from doing so because they're content with downloading fansubs or rips.

Sales are NOT affected by this group of people:

(o) : People who download fansubs or rips, but would not have bought the DVD anyway otherwise. Most of the people you're complaining about would fall into this irrelevant category. They may be annoying to the labels, since they're watching anime for free, but they do NOT harm their bottom lines.

On the other hand, these are the groups which HELP anime sales:

(+) : People who purchase DVDs, but would not have known about this show if they hadn't watched a fansub/rip.

(+) : People who purchase DVDs, but would not have done so if they hadn't found out via fansub/rip that they like it so much that they want to own it.

(+) : People whose interest in anime was raised by fansubs/rips, and who would have picked up a different hobby otherwise.

(+) : As a sideeffect: People who turned into anime fans because of fansubs/rips, but blow their cash on other anime goods (mangas, plamos, wallscreens, games etc). Many labels have more than just DVDs as product lines.

You think that the (-) group is bigger than the (+) ones? Based on my experiences, I strongly doubt that. But I know for a fact that the anime market wouldn't be remotely as big as it is today if it wasn't for the fansub world.

Quote:
And you ask how I know about them? Go to a convention or two or ten and sit on lines, in panels, in the dealers room, etc and you hear them. Also, go read the animeondvd boards and see how much they rely on things such as word of mouth or other people who do watch raws.
See above. Most of these people you mention would fall into the (o) category. And if you meet them on conventions, most of them will STILL blow their cash on something else then (see the last + group). You'd rather have them skateboard? And ask yourself, how many of those people would BUY their DVDs otherwise? Hm?

Quote:
Because you invented that as my theory to fit your theory. It's called generalizing as these are the two majority groups. The minority of fansub watchers buy the majority of the DVDs among fansub watchers.
I spent 5 minutes trying to understand what you're saying and failed. Maybe this was a typo?

Quote:
There is no point in explaining what 15 groups do when only 2 groups matter.
Who are those groups? How about you define them first? Which 2 groups out of which 15 matter why?

Quote:
According to your logic, everyone who watches fansubs buys something.
According to my experiences, most people watching fansubs do, yes. Because most anime fans (at least the ones I know) watch fansubs, so this is the majority of the anime fandom family.

And no, not EVERYONE buys something. I'm sure that there's some l33ches who don't spend a single penny on anime. But most people I know do - they buy their shares of DVDs, manga, OSTs and whatnot. I'd venture a guess that nearly everyone reading this board will watch fansubs. I'd also venture a guess that you do, too.

Now, are you a good guy or a bad one?

Or should I have asked "do you like dubs, or do you watch fansubs"?
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Old 2006-06-01, 07:18   Link #54
xris
Just call me Ojisan
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
Quote:
According to your logic, everyone who watches fansubs buys something.
According to my experiences, most people watching fansubs do, yes. Because most anime fans (at least the ones I know) watch fansubs, so this is the majority of the anime fandom family.
Well that may be your experiences but it doesn't coincide with mine.

Based on the people in the Anime Club I belong to, I would say about 10% are regular purchasers of anime (i.e. they buy DVDs of series they watched and enjoyed as fansubs) and 10% are irregular purchasers of anime (i.e. they may own a few DVDs), the other 80% wouldn't consider purchasing DVDs because they "seen it" (on fansubs), "can't afford it", "would never consider purchasing it", etc, etc. And I sometimes wonder if the 20% figure is me being optimistic.

But this thread seems to be going the usual path of such debates and ending up in circles, plus it's now way off topic to the original question. I would expect to be closed soon.
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Old 2006-06-01, 07:45   Link #55
Mentar
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Just curious: If there wasn't such a thing as fansubs, would those people be in your club to begin with? And purchase their anime on DVDs to watch it?
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Old 2006-06-01, 07:51   Link #56
MrProphet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
Just curious: If there wasn't such a thing as fansubs, would those people be in your club to begin with? And purchase their anime on DVDs to watch it?
Plenty of anime is broadcast on TV nowadays. And it can't be said that those are in any way obscure titles. In fact, the last couple of years saw a tremendous increase of anime on TV outside of Japan.

United States leads in this, of course, but it's not limited to USA. Europe gets plenty of anime (on MTV, for example).
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Old 2006-06-01, 07:55   Link #57
Kamui4356
Aria Company
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
Actually, that was done from some pure math. The number of sales of the Inu Yasha DVDs is public (1 million for 30 discs, ~30000 a disc.). As is the number of downloads (the tracker says 15k on the mass pack alone, i know there were at least 50k before the mass pack) and the number of TV watchers (say 200k from googling for "ratings delivery adult swim"). This says that ~260k total viewers with 10% of the total DVD audiance just watching the sub. (Ultra conservative guess from the VHS years.) This would mean that 3k of 50k or about 6 in 100 of fansub watchers bought the disc. I originally used 110k as the BT numbers which would bring this to 2 in 100. Oh wow, at worst 5 whole people more. (Note, 200k into 27k is 1 in 10.)
Sorry, but I can't let this slide. That is in no way "pure math" as you claim. You took an assumption, that few people who watch fansubs buy dvds, then twisted data around to support it.

First, you cannot base the number of sub watchers for a bilingual dvd on vhs sales. Even assuming you have solid numbers for it, which I highly doubt, dubbed vhs tapes were ten dollars cheaper on average and much more widely available. Even if more people preferred subs, the dubs still would have sold much better for those reasons. You could buy a $20 dubbed tape in Suncoast, while a $30 subbed tape you'd have to go to an anime shop, or order.

Second, even if the percentage of sub watchers was correct, there is no reason to believe fansub watchers will only watch subbed dvds, and tv watchers will only watch dubbed. There are a lot of people who watch anime on tv then buy the dvds so they can watch it subbed. There are also a lot of people who download fansubs who buy dvds so they can watch it dubbed. The lines between sub watchers and dub watchers aren't as clear cut as you seem to think.

Not to mention you completely forgot about the people who neither watched the fansubs nor watched on tv and bought the dvds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xris
Based on the people in the Anime Club I belong to, I would say about 10% are regular purchasers of anime (i.e. they buy DVDs of series they watched and enjoyed as fansubs) and 10% are irregular purchasers of anime (i.e. they may own a few DVDs), the other 80% wouldn't consider purchasing DVDs because they "seen it" (on fansubs), "can't afford it", "would never consider purchasing it", etc, etc. And I sometimes wonder if the 20% figure is me being optimistic.
That seems about right to me. I usually assume 10-15% of the people who see a series will buy dvds for it. If we take the numbers bayoab provided for Inuyasha, 11.5% of the people who saw it bought the dvds, which is consistant.
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Old 2006-06-01, 07:58   Link #58
Mentar
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*shrug*

As I pointed out before, TV airings are only stronger forms of fansubs. We're talking about fansubs hurting DVD sales here, meaning people who would have bought a DVD, but did not because of the existence of fansubs.

That TV shows tend to sell much better on DVD only underscores _my_ theory which says that free and easy public availability per se helps DVD sales instead of hurting them.
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Old 2006-06-01, 08:09   Link #59
LytHka
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
EVERY person I know in real life has had his/her first spark of interest in anime lit by television. Fansubs were just THE NEXT STEP in their evolution as fans. Still, most of them (being 90-95%), just like in xris' example, do not buy anime DVDs. Most have bought manga and artbooks, but the quantity of what they've purchased still needs some explaination. Most have bought a manga vol. or two because of a bookstore in the city started selling manga. So, the sale was very much influenced by the hype that such an event has created. They have shown SOME support, but the industry needs CONTINUOUS support. I do not consider the majority (90%) of my offline otaku friends as anime/manga goods consumers, because the quantity of what they've purchased is negligable. I wouldn't say that fansubs helped them become spoiled, it's just their lack of a true fan's (consumer's) spirit that's keeping them from purchasing more even though they're pretty huge consumers in other industry sectors.
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Old 2006-06-01, 08:42   Link #60
DaFool
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http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1226

I derive from this that most R1 DVD sales are from dubbed (i.e. televised) exposure, not subtitled (fansub) exposure.

I got into anime because of Gundam Wing on Cartoon Network, then going to Suncoast or renting at Blockbuster. I watched dubbed more back then. I got into fansubs because being in ECE circles meant I associated with people who had ridiculous amounts of harddrive space and FTP connections and didn't know what else to do with them.

I purchased more R1 DVDs then even though I earn more now simply because I was in the U.S. then and they were more available (and also cheaper). But otherwise I would consider my place among the niche in terms of statistics of fansub watchers vs. DVD purchasers. I still believe majority of DVD purchasers get their exposure elsewhere.
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