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View Poll Results: Who wins?
Yzak 58 56.31%
Shinn 32 31.07%
$hitty 3rd option because I hate both these guys... 13 12.62%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-06-01, 01:28   Link #81
wingdarkness
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Its just a message board.
I recommend you take a chill pill, man.

Never have I ever seen someone try to pick a fight, or at least this message looked like it. But that's ok, use some of that anger, it makes you stronger.

^ dude I'm not serious...this is called recess...like you i used the XD symbol after my post...But just to be cool I will go into my medicine cabinet and take one of those chillpills, for some reason I never open that bottle ... *gulp* ah...We're cool...

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But despite that, other side's argument seems to imply that Yzak even without SEED is equal or greater than Shin with his SEED mode.
Well I can't agree with that it seems like in Shinn's case SEED mode doesn't count or something...It gives him hightened abilities that Yzak doesn't posess..yeah Yzak is still an ace, but he doesn't have those hightened skills that can't logically be explained...Furthermore I know when it's Shinn there seems to be a barrier of disbelief but Yzak must know about the Minerva and Shinn's nebula medal and FAITH ranking...You think that wouldn't have an effect on how he veiws Shinn??
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Old 2006-06-01, 01:29   Link #82
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Oh mind you, Athrun and Shinn were talking while battling in the end of GSD. The reason why Shinn doesn't talk is he gets unstable whenever he's upset. Rey had Shinn on a leash throughout GSD and when Rey was fighting Kira, Athrun had the chance to talk some sense into him which in turn, Shinn just got angrier.
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Old 2006-06-01, 01:44   Link #83
epyon96
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Well I can't agree with that it seems like in Shinn's case SEED mode doesn't count or something...It gives him hightened abilities that Yzak doesn't posess..yeah Yzak is still an ace, but he doesn't have those hightened skills that can't logically be explained...Furthermore I know when it's Shinn there seems to be a barrier of disbelief but Yzak must know about the Minerva and Shinn's nebula medal and FAITH ranking...You think that wouldn't have an effect on how he veiws Shinn??
If you recall earlier, I mentioned ambiguously the term "overglorification" of Shin's accomplishments. It is refering to this:

Anytime Shin fights, they animinate in such a way to show his inner mind and how he is able to have heightened senses and whatnot with the seed breaking and the colors changing. Whereas, Yzak, being a nonmain character, does not get that treatment. He just completes the job and walks on home off the stage.

The argument that Shin's "apparant" heightened senses doesn't quite stand because who's to say that Yzak doesn't have senses equal to that normally. He didn't train to be a red-coat for nothing. And he was second to only Athrun in abilities according to most of the posters here regarding his ranking in training classes. He was made a white coat. Just because his animation sequences doesn't look as nice doesn't mean he doesn't have those mysterious heightened senses.

But in one on one fight. I really don't see Yzak as one caring about rank much if it's an opponent on the other side.

If you want to say that because Shin has FAITH, therefore he is better. Let's not forget that Durandal was essentially playing Shin like a tool in order to utilize him to his full potential for his own purposes. He is willing to give Shin whatever leeway he needs. Yzak wasn't his pawn.
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Old 2006-06-01, 02:04   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epyon96
If you recall earlier, I mentioned ambiguously the term "overglorification" of Shin's accomplishments. It is refering to this:

Anytime Shin fights, they animinate in such a way to show his inner mind and how he is able to have heightened senses and whatnot with the seed breaking and the colors changing. Whereas, Yzak, being a nonmain character, does not get that treatment. He just completes the job and walks on home off the stage.
Well it's even debatable if Shinn is even a main character at this point ...But Yzak doesn't get those scenes because he doesn't have the Evolutionary Destined Factor...that's just the crux of it...But he is shown to be highly skilled against pilots that do not have this and I'll have to take that into consideration...


Quote:
The argument that Shin's "apparant" heightened senses doesn't quite stand because who's to say that Yzak doesn't have senses equal to that normally. He didn't train to be a red-coat for nothing. And he was second to only Athrun in abilities according to most of the posters here regarding his ranking in training classes. He was made a white coat. Just because his animation sequences doesn't look as nice doesn't mean he doesn't have those mysterious heightened senses.
With all due respect SEED mode is specfically shown to illustrate a hightened awarness or ability...Unfortunatley the CE Universe doesn't really give non seed users the treatment...based on GSD (which I can't ignore despite it's flaws), Yzak does not posess this special intagible which IMHO seperates him from the Big 3...Only Cagali would be exposed, but since there is no true explanation for SEED we don't know if a natural SEED user is even better than a Coordie in any scenerio...Cagali certainly was still severly less powerful than the druggies even with that boost...

Quote:
But in one on one fight. I really don't see Yzak as one caring about rank much if it's an opponent on the other side.
that's not my point...I'm just illustrating Yzak's potential mindset for facing Shinn...Shinn is being shown on world-wide television totally Pwning DESTROYS and killing everything else in site..Yzak would have to be plastic doll not to have his perceptions of Shinn effected by this...

Quote:
If you want to say that because Shin has FAITH, therefore he is better. Let's not forget that Durandal was essentially playing Shin like a tool in order to utilize him to his full potential for his own purposes. He is willing to give Shin whatever leeway he needs. Yzak wasn't his pawn.
Like I just said all I'm conveying is Yzak's perception of Shinn as a pilot...No matter how confident you are (unless your Moses Yamato) most people would have some psycological effect based on the ranking of people close-by in there immediate profession..Yzak has no clue what we know, all he sees is that Shinn is being presented Galaxy-wide as the "Super-Ace" of ZAFT and nearly everyone acknowledges this...other than giving Athrun a call and getting the "real-deal", as Yzak, how could this be ignored if for example he somehow had to face Shinn during Final+ once he decided to go with Lacus' side?? It's only human for these things to creep into your mind which gives Shinn somewhat of a palpable advantage...


Ah...that's enuff for today...that was alot of fun....BBL!
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Old 2006-06-01, 03:01   Link #85
darkprimus
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As far as Shinn vs Yzak goes I'd give it to Yzak. Now then let's have some rational rather than just mindless opinion.

First let's go with Yzak:

As has been stated before, he finished 2nd overall in the Academy with the only person better than him being Athurn. Which isn't actually true as Yzak actually did graduate at the top of his class because Athurn got sick on day and missed a test, causing him to be 2nd overall.

Yzak fought with what was essentially the weakest of the suits (Duel was the unit that the other 4 were based on, and they all had more in the way of armaments and such) however he does later get the Assualt Shroud which makes up for this. Despite all of this he loses in combat to Kira, who's skill level is essentially equal to Athurn for most of SEED. However there were times where Kira would have died by virtue of running out of power from the combined assualt of the other 4 had Athurn not intervened or for some other deus ex machina reason.

Once Kira gets Freedom, a unit that's 5 times more powerful than Strike, which was a unit capable of fighting against all 4 of the other units, he pwns Duel like he was a grunt. This leaves Yzak vs Dearka and Yzak vs Druggies as the best examples of his skill in SEED. Now in Yzak vs Dearka since he thought this was some natural who had killed Dearka and was piloting Buster he wasn't actually at his best, too clouded by anger. He just charged up close and slashed, leaving himself wide open to counter-attack. Then you have Jakin Due where Yzak leads a squad of GuaIZ and proceeds with the pwning. He did not mindlessly charge here despite obvious anger, that's just his personality. He was focused in this battle and once Dearka took some hard hits became even more so using tactics and luck to take down 2 Druggies in rapid succession. This is a clear example of him using the element of surprise to create an opening by disorientating his opponent.

Once we get to GSD we only really get to see Yzak fight once. In his Slash ZAKU Phantom he does a fair share of pwning against both the Vets (who were better than Shinn and Co., see Shinn taking a self-destruct to the face) and the Extended. He blitzed the enemy and hit hard. That seems to be his standard attack, he blitzes the enemy and let's them have it. Now, when he's angry but in control this usually works to his advantage, and he usually doesn't try it head on, he attacks from an angle so the enemy has to manuever to face him. When he's just plain angry this is horrid because he does charge head long. A second example just has him destroying Windams which are just grunt suits and nothing special. A third example of skill is by proxy. In the end battle of GSD he and Dearka are protecting the Eternal in place of Mwu in Akatsuki, Athurn in I-J and the Archangel. Since at most he had another 2 or 3 MS with him in his squad and the Eternal is still in one piece at the end he and Dearka have to be as good as Mwu and Athurn as a team. Considering that suit spec wise, Yzak and Dearka both had less to work with than Mwu and Athurn this speaks of their skill.

In summary, Yzak is good so long as his anger is focused and not just blind rage. He might have a standard attack style, but he is more than comfortable with making modifications to it on the fly to take down a difficult opponent or opponents often in superior machines. Yzak is a dedicated melee specialist, although capable at range he shines in close quarter combat.

Now it's Shinn's turn:

From his first battle with the Extended he isn't "overwhelming" anyone, "shock and awe" maybe, but that's it. and once it wore off he was put firmly on the defensive He manages to stay alive with help from his teammates and Athurn, and shows skill with the Force pack which granted him superior mobility than his opponents and he used it to switch from the defensive to the offensive. Now for anyone who says that the Extended didn't know what they were doing, they said that using the suits was just like the data, so I'm saying they had accurate simulations and therefore started with a high proficieny. At the very least they had an equivalent amount of experience with them that Shinn had with Impulse going in. However it should be said that the objective (on Shinn's side) was to capture the suits intact, not destroy them, which is what he tries to do in the beginning and fails.

Later you have Shinn see Yzak, Dearka, and Athurn fight and say that they are better than him. When he tries to copy Athurn and disarms a Vet he takes a self-destruct to the face for poor execution. It isn't till he goes SEED for the first time that everyone even considers him a better pilot than Rey. However, his fighting up till now illustrates an important point about Shinn, he might try to change his fighting style, but once he tries something new he keeps using that tactic till it stops working for him, and in the case of the ASS-stab with Destiny, even after that. Not to say that Shinn isn't good at improvising, but he reflects his MS. Impulse was a highly adaptable unit, he could switch out parts in the fly, even sacrifice them for a setup because he could always get a new one. I mean after he SEEDs for the first time and realizes this (something I hope everyone at home got right off the bat) he uses that to his advantage all the time. Destiny on the other hand tries to do everything, but does nothing exceedlinly well. It gave Shinn more options in a tactical sense and vastly improved brute strenght, but reduced his strategic options and finesse fighting. Shinn reflects this by changing his manner of combat and relying more on moves that worked well in the past and getting in close so he can use the "Destiny palm" and finish the fight quickly. Against skilled melee fighters like Kira and Athurn this style is a bad choice and he gets pwned in combat. Unfortunately none of these experiences have caused him to adopt a different combat style and he continued in a straight forward rush in and kill style until Athurn destroyed his MS.

In regards to Shinn taking down Kira, let's see it might be a win on paper, but consider the factors in "real-life." Kira wasn't fighting Shinn to win, Shinn was using the strengths of Impulse being able to restore itself to full functionality via replacement parts in order to set Kira up for attacks, and Shinn and Rey spent some time going over Kira's combat footage to devise a strategy centered around Kira not going for kill shots and Impulse being able to get replacements in the field. Without these advantages (See S-F vs Destiny) Shinn would not beat Kira. I'm sorry, but if I was Shinn and Kira later tells me that he wasn't trying to beat me I'd believe him and not consider that "victory" an actual win.

In summary, the Shinn who pilots Impulse is not the Shinn who pilots Destiny, rather than conform his MS to his fighting style, he conforms his fighting style to his MS. This can be a good or a bad thing depending on his MS. Also, his anger drives him to SEED mode, but on the way there he suffers reduced performance from being clouded by that anger. As a combatant Shinn is good, but like Destiny he tries to do everything and excels at nothing focusing on melee because he can insure a kill and there are few counters.

Finally, Yzak vs Shinn:

Yzak is the 2nd or 3rd best melee fighter in the C.E. Universe depending on whether you rank Athurn and Kira together or not. Shinn focuses heavily on melee combat and has been shown to be overpowered by these superior fighters and I see no different occuring with Yzak. Although, should Shinn live long enough to go SEED he might be able to win this. Funny enough I feel that Shinn has a better chance against Yzak in Impulse than he does in Destiny, his combat style in Destiny plays too much into Yzak's strengths. Similarly, early Yzak would probably lose to Shinn, but post Mendel colony Yzak is well adjusted enough to beat Shinn.

As and aside, why does Yzak's GOUF get no mention in the various setups? Why no love for the GOUF?
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Old 2006-06-01, 03:13   Link #86
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Cause we only see so little screen time in YzakxGOUF setup vs. the YzakxDUEL setup. We could assume that Yzak is using that GOUF to its limits considering that other GOUF grunt units tend to get hit in 2-4 frames. Eventhough the GOUF is marginally better than the DUEL in the GSD timeline, there's too little screen time to evaluate Yzak's performance with the GOUF.
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Old 2006-06-01, 04:35   Link #87
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junkies in seed > junkies in destiny

yzark>shinn

the 3 on 1 battles i dont think we should even considered that a fight, remember kira did have trouble fighin 3ms
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Old 2006-06-01, 05:50   Link #88
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let's take a look at yzak's record let's see he lost,lost again then again and got 2 wins or 1 win(fukuda can't decide.)

shinn actually won battles against non-grunts. besides yzak didn't take down raider gundam alone.
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Old 2006-06-01, 06:04   Link #89
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It's no use dom...Shinn is currently losing 30-13 which is so beyond ridiculous puking would be a compliment...I shoulda made a thread called Shinn vs. Charles Manson, I'd bet he'd still lose XD...The depth of hate people have for this character is almost unimaginable...Even that large post above us is filled with the stench of laffable bias...Oh now Rey who was chopped liver the whole first half of the series other than his NT-flashed assisted battle with Neo( who also pretty much sucks) is clearly better than Shinn?? Can't say I'm surprised, but for so many people to let their loathing of the character effect there every word and analysis is almost too much to take...You'll note I never diss Yzak in anyway during my actual comparison...I respect his abilities...But so many people refuse to have any level context or even a modicum of respect when veiwing this character...I guess to be irrationally hated means the character also accomplished something tangible though...Heh...I guess that's more meaningful in a way...
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Old 2006-06-01, 12:00   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
It's no use dom...Shinn is currently losing 30-13 which is so beyond ridiculous puking would be a compliment...I shoulda made a thread called Shinn vs. Charles Manson, I'd bet he'd still lose XD...The depth of hate people have for this character is almost unimaginable...Even that large post above us is filled with the stench of laffable bias...Oh now Rey who was chopped liver the whole first half of the series other than his NT-flashed assisted battle with Neo( who also pretty much sucks) is clearly better than Shinn?? Can't say I'm surprised, but for so many people to let their loathing of the character effect there every word and analysis is almost too much to take...You'll note I never diss Yzak in anyway during my actual comparison...I respect his abilities...But so many people refuse to have any level context or even a modicum of respect when veiwing this character...I guess to be irrationally hated means the character also accomplished something tangible though...Heh...I guess that's more meaningful in a way...
No No....You can't fold in an argument like that. Just ignore the fanboy comments like most ppl. It's not like we are talking about Kira vs. Shin so it's not at that bad state yet.

Darkprimus did not even try to be a fanboy or made any such comments. He made some very good points. It's just that your arguments didn't have stuff to substantiate it. We all know Shin has SEED and Yzak doesn't. But there hasn't been a way to prove that Shin's SEED mode is stronger than Yzak without SEED mode.

All the scenario evidence you brought forward has not be definitive to prove his abilities.
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Last edited by epyon96; 2006-06-01 at 17:22.
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Old 2006-06-01, 12:02   Link #91
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To tell you the truth, I can't decide who would win.
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Old 2006-06-01, 12:07   Link #92
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I voted for Shinn, but he's still outvoted...

Really, what is it about the old cast that make them better than Shinn whichever part of the old cast you put it?
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Old 2006-06-01, 12:16   Link #93
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In terms of piloting styles, Yzak would be an advantage since Shinn attacks straightforwardly.

But Shinn has shown better use of strategy.

Still can't decide.
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Old 2006-06-01, 12:30   Link #94
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Like it or not, no matter how you try, this thread is already a popularity contest.

There is actually a rule against VS threads on this board. I guess Mr Paper is away?
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Old 2006-06-01, 12:36   Link #95
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There is actually a rule against VS threads on this board. I guess Mr Paper is away?
Well, Mr Paper modded a post above, so maybe he just forgot the rule?
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Old 2006-06-01, 13:26   Link #96
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@VCV - Well vs. threads work when it has a specific topical guidline (Which I have provided)...It's perfectly fine as long as it's not just popularity...I have to remind myself that sometimes polls actually hinder discussion...

Quote:
Dom did not even try to be a fanboy or made any such comments. He made some very good points. It's just that your arguments didn't have stuff to substantiate it. We all know Shin has SEED and Yzak doesn't. But there hasn't been a way to prove that Shin's SEED mode is stronger than Yzak without SEED mode.

All the scenario evidence you brought forward has not be definitive to prove his abilities.
Uh...thanks epyon you have a way of making things feel so much darn better ..That's what I needed to see...those exact words your wrote -_-;; My quote is called a rant, I just needed to see any pro-Shinn post to set me off...I'll never give up, but can I wallow a little??
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Old 2006-06-01, 14:48   Link #97
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Shinn is getting PWNED in the poll.
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Old 2006-06-01, 16:39   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritoch
Cause we only see so little screen time in YzakxGOUF setup vs. the YzakxDUEL setup. We could assume that Yzak is using that GOUF to its limits considering that other GOUF grunt units tend to get hit in 2-4 frames. Eventhough the GOUF is marginally better than the DUEL in the GSD timeline, there's too little screen time to evaluate Yzak's performance with the GOUF.
First thing, although we don't really see Yzak in his GOUF we did get to see Heine in his, and I'm willing to say that this is a fairly accurate reflection of the units abilities when in the hands of an elite pilot.

Secondly, marginally better than Duel? The GuaIZ from the end of SEED were supposed to have performance on par with first gen gundams (Strike et al.) and the ZAKU's are supposed to be even better than that, to the point that ZAKU's start as units given to the elite pilots. As the series progesses we get introduced to the GOUF which is even better than the ZAKU replacing them as elite units with ZAKUs becoming grunt units. I would say that performance wise a GOUF should be more comparable to a 2nd gen gundam from SEED.
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Old 2006-06-01, 17:13   Link #99
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But Heine isn't Yzak and no, Im not talking about the performance of the MS. I'm talking about how Yzak battles and we get to see so much more of it in Seed rather than in GSD.

If they showed Yzak piloting the Gouf in let's say, 12 episodes (oh yes, Yzak had massive air time in Seed), that'll be enough resources to evaluate Yzak's piloting capabilities with the GOUF.

Heine isn't Yzak and Yzak isn't Heine, their piloting styles may differ and even if they're using the same suits, piloting style takes precedence over MS specs.

And no, Im not a Yzak fanboy. I'm still borderline Shinn/Yzak. There's not enough conclusive evidence to actually suffice a verdict.

How about we setup the MS's? How about Destiny vs. Destiny; Shinn vs. Yzak. Who would win in that particular setup?
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Old 2006-06-01, 17:35   Link #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritoch
But Heine isn't Yzak and no, Im not talking about the performance of the MS. I'm talking about how Yzak battles and we get to see so much more of it in Seed rather than in GSD.

If they showed Yzak piloting the Gouf in let's say, 12 episodes (oh yes, Yzak had massive air time in Seed), that'll be enough resources to evaluate Yzak's piloting capabilities with the GOUF.

Heine isn't Yzak and Yzak isn't Heine, their piloting styles may differ and even if they're using the same suits, piloting style takes precedence over MS specs.
I agree that Yzak is not Heine, however Heine is an elite pilot and one would imagine takes his suit to the edge of its performance envelope. Yzak similarly is an elite pilot and takes his machine as far as it can go. This gives us some background on what a GOUF can do when not piloted by a grunt.

As far as combat style goes, in my analysis of Yzak's style I showed how he uses the same style regardless of the suit's performance specs and just makes the suit conform to him. In the Duel, in his ZAKU Phantom and one can extrapolate to his GOUF, he'd be fighting the same way. Besides Yzak likes melee and the GOUF is more a melee suit than anything else.

Almost forgot to add, Heine's combat style, at least in his GOUF, is similar to Yzak in his ZAKU Phantom: Charge enemy with beam melee weapon and occasionally use high fire rate beam weapon to take down anyone following you after the blitz attack.
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