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View Poll Results: Favourite F/sn Character Poll (Multiple Choice allowed!)
Emiya Kiritsugu 52 5.37%
Emiya Shirou 190 19.61%
Saber 577 59.55%
Tohsaka Rin 477 49.23%
Archer 443 45.72%
Ilyasviel "Ilya" von Einzbern 229 23.63%
Berzerker 30 3.10%
Matou Sakura 121 12.49%
Matou Shinji 13 1.34%
Rider 197 20.33%
Kuzuki Souichirou 17 1.75%
Caster 85 8.77%
Assassin 112 11.56%
Kotomine Kirei 38 3.92%
Lancer 124 12.80%
Gilgamesh 165 17.03%
Fuji Nee (Fujimura Taiga) 65 6.71%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 969. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-11-29, 12:55   Link #521
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, I'd say that Fate is more White and Grey morality, really, although even that is somewhat dubious given just how awful Zouken, in particular, is. Shirou is pretty much pure good, even in HF (sorry, but refusing to kill an innocent girl does not make you in any way "Grey" in morality, and indeed the converse would), and Rin, Saber and Sakura mostly are. All of the villains have some sympathetic parts to their backstory, but that doesn't stop some of them (Zouken in particular) being a Complete Monster.
I agree there. I like Gil and villains like the Joker but those like Zouken... yeah... I despise them.
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Old 2010-11-29, 12:58   Link #522
willyvereb
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Zoken was okay but I felt he could've been better (and by better i mean more easy to hate)
Read Fate/Zero. You are going to rage at Zouken.
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Old 2010-11-29, 12:59   Link #523
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Ah yes, I've already read the first couple of chapters. Very rage inducing...
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:05   Link #524
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Read Fate/Zero. You are going to rage at Zouken.
Yes... I plan to read it despite to inevitable rage. Right after I get an eReader, lol.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:13   Link #525
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Uhhh, hey... guys, people. Fair ladies and gentlemen of all communities and walks of life - what is there not to hate about Zouken?

His tenacity to live is sickening. The length he goes to just to prolong his life? God damn, I don't know where to start.

He is the one that put Sakura into her situation - a direct effect of that is Shinji.

Great villain, super easy to hate. Reminds me I need to make an effirgy of him sometime and shank the living hell out of it. :|

Last edited by Arbitres; 2010-11-29 at 14:14.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:20   Link #526
Haak
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You have to make sure it's not contrived. I can understand him being brutally practical in his desire to become immortal, but not his sadism.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:46   Link #527
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Zoken was okay but I felt he could've been better (and by better i mean more easy to hate)
Really? The guy is a mass-murdering child rapist who tortured Sakura for eleven years and turned her into an Eldritch abomination, with the full intention of taking over her body when she got powerful enough.

How exactly could be be made "more easy to hate"?

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You have to make sure it's not contrived. I can understand him being brutally practical in his desire to become immortal, but not his sadism.
The thing is, he's not overly sadistic (no more so than your average villain, certainly). He tortures Sakura because he has to, as part of his plan. He needs her to break so he can control her, and he needs her to be able to cope with pain so that she can cope with being the Grail. Not to mention that the only way he is able to 'teach' her magic is by raping her with penis worms....

Zouken's actions are actually somewhat realistic. He does show some occasional flashes of sadism, but he's not actually torturing Sakura for the sake of it, and he shows in HF that he is capable of feigning kindness when it suits him.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:52   Link #528
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Really? The guy is a mass-murdering child rapist who tortured Sakura for eleven years and turned her into an Eldritch abomination, with the full intention of taking over her body when she got powerful enough.

How exactly could be be made "more easy to hate"?
More screentime. I know it sounds odd but we didn't actually see a lot him. We saw plenty but I feel if we saw more of him being the insufferable asshole that he is I would've been able to build up more utter hatred for him.

Quote:
The thing is, he's not overly sadistic (no more so than your average villain, certainly). He tortures Sakura because he has to, as part of his plan. He needs her to break so he can control her, and he needs her to be able to cope with pain so that she can cope with being the Grail. Not to mention that the only way he is able to 'teach' her magic is by raping her with penis worms....

Zouken's actions are actually somewhat realistic. He does show some occasional flashes of sadism, but he's not actually torturing Sakura for the sake of it, and he shows in HF that he is capable of feigning kindness when it suits him.
Eh. I vaguely recall somewhere in the narrative at some point that he did something primarily to appease his sadism, but I'm not sure...

Anyway, I'm not saying he's lacking in anything. I'm just saying there was room for more.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:56   Link #529
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Yes, Zouken IS a sadist. He's suffering from constant pain of his rotten body and he loves to inflict similar pain on others. On the other hand he's a genius and coldhearted mage and dead-calculating. He does everything with a certain intention and objective but does so in a way to appease his thirst for suffering.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:05   Link #530
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Yes, Zouken IS a sadist. He's suffering from constant pain of his rotten body and he loves to inflict similar pain on others. On the other hand he's a genius and coldhearted mage and dead-calculating. He does everything with a certain intention and objective but does so in a way to appease his thirst for suffering.
Oh yeah, now I remember! >: D
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:14   Link #531
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Yes, Zouken IS a sadist. He's suffering from constant pain of his rotten body and he loves to inflict similar pain on others. On the other hand he's a genius and coldhearted mage and dead-calculating. He does everything with a certain intention and objective but does so in a way to appease his thirst for suffering.
Actually, I don't buy this. There's nothing anywhere in the game that suggests that he actually enjoys torturing Sakura, at least not unduly. Kariya is somewhat different, because Zouken actually hates him, due to him abandoning the family in the past.

Zouken is calculating rather than sadistic, and if the best way of getting what he wanted was to treat Sakura like a princess, then that's what he'd have done.

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More screentime. I know it sounds odd but we didn't actually see a lot him. We saw plenty but I feel if we saw more of him being the insufferable asshole that he is I would've been able to build up more utter hatred for him.
Well, for me HF was enough to make me firmly hate the guy, although it's more because we see the effects of his actions on Sakura than the actions themselves. However, if HF doesn't show enough assholery for your liking, then Zero certainly makes up for it....

Quote:
Eh. I vaguely recall somewhere in the narrative at some point that he did something primarily to appease his sadism, but I'm not sure...
Spoiler for Fate/Zero:

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-11-29 at 14:41.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:23   Link #532
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Spoilers Cherry Lover. The spoilers...
Fate/Zero isn't part of the common knowledge.
EDIT: Thank you.
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Old 2010-11-29, 21:30   Link #533
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Quote:
Actually, I don't buy this. There's nothing anywhere in the game that suggests that he actually enjoys torturing Sakura, at least not unduly. Kariya is somewhat different, because Zouken actually hates him, due to him abandoning the family in the past.

Zouken is calculating rather than sadistic, and if the best way of getting what he wanted was to treat Sakura like a princess, then that's what he'd have done.
Actually, and I have talked with you about this, the training alone should be enough, and he did it early enough for it to stick psychologically. The poisoning of her food really wasn't necessary, since he basically made her feel enough pain during training and the constant pain of the worms.

Spoiler for Some HF stuff:
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Old 2010-11-29, 21:39   Link #534
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Yes... let's use spoiler tags, thank you.

Spoiler for VN: Heaven's Feel:
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Old 2010-11-30, 18:45   Link #535
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Actually, and I have talked with you about this, the training alone should be enough, and he did it early enough for it to stick psychologically. The poisoning of her food really wasn't necessary, since he basically made her feel enough pain during training and the constant pain of the worms.
Spoiler for HF:


Spoiler for Some HF stuff:
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Old 2010-12-04, 18:23   Link #536
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I for one always had the impression of Zouken being a Cold-hearted bastard ala Gendo Ikari rather than a strict sadist throughout HF

Spoiler for HF:


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Yes... let's use spoiler tags, thank you.

Spoiler for VN: Heaven's Feel:
I can sympathize, particularly since if the transition between the other routes and HF had been better handled the narrative changes would have flowed better and made more clear cut sense (particularly wrt Zouken's level of participation).
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Old 2010-12-04, 19:41   Link #537
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I for one always had the impression of Zouken being a Cold-hearted bastard ala Gendo Ikari rather than a strict sadist throughout HF

Spoiler for HF:
Yeah, that's the impression I have of him too.
Spoiler for HF:


Quote:
I can sympathize, particularly since if the transition between the other routes and HF had been better handled the narrative changes would have flowed better and made more clear cut sense (particularly wrt Zouken's level of participation).
It makes perfect sense.
Spoiler for HF:
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Old 2010-12-04, 21:39   Link #538
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@aldw:

Quote:
I can sympathize, particularly since if the transition between the other routes and HF had been better handled the narrative changes would have flowed better and made more clear cut sense (particularly wrt Zouken's level of participation).
I think he meant to say that the scene was brutal for him, so he blocked it out. Not that the other routes couldn't do with better in pacing as well, mind you...

People complain about the cooking scenes, but it was there that pure character development occurred, which many missed because it didn't have blood flowing or weapons flying. The characters became "people" during these scenes, instead of fancy killbots. The one thing you can complain about in HF was that it had a huuuuuge amount of info to dump, so it was hard to take it all in. Sakura's situation is so brutal, that many feel it to be too much to handle all at once(or that it is too unbelievable, but remember, we are dealing with the world of magic here, people can be that cruel in real life, why can't they be even more so with supernatural abilities?), but that is what you are delivered with.
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Old 2010-12-04, 23:27   Link #539
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It makes perfect sense.
Spoiler for HF:
This was something I've felt that should have at least been hinted at in terms of his disappointment with Shinji in the prior two arcs, otherwise HF is the equivalent of being 10 dimensionals levels away (using a Sliders analogy) whereas Fate and UBW are 1-2 levels separate from each other. Just because it makes sense to you doesn't make it a good narrative technique. Even the X-Files in its worst writing days (and it did have quite a few) as a case in point didn't make that sort of disjointed narrative within its overarching themes, nor Tsukihime for that matter.

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@aldw:

I think he meant to say that the scene was brutal for him, so he blocked it out. Not that the other routes couldn't do with better in pacing as well, mind you...

People complain about the cooking scenes, but it was there that pure character development occurred, which many missed because it didn't have blood flowing or weapons flying. The characters became "people" during these scenes, instead of fancy killbots. The one thing you can complain about in HF was that it had a huuuuuge amount of info to dump, so it was hard to take it all in. Sakura's situation is so brutal, that many feel it to be too much to handle all at once(or that it is too unbelievable, but remember, we are dealing with the world of magic here, people can be that cruel in real life, why can't they be even more so with supernatural abilities?), but that is what you are delivered with.
The years of dealing with the crap from Evangelion storytelling and the fans et al on top of various other narrative nastiness both original story and fanfiction just makes me utterly inured about that sort of darkness in storywriting, on top of the real life sorts I've seen, but it makes perfect sense to block out the nasty stuff in a story if that wasn't something you like or wanted (like the use of guro in a story to demonstrate a character's character for instance). Wrt HF, if anything the cooking scenes were something I felt did help move the story while the sex scenes much more so that the violence seemed gratuitous. In that sense the Realta Nua editing of HF I strongly agreed with.

Last edited by aldw; 2010-12-04 at 23:42.
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Old 2010-12-05, 15:55   Link #540
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This was something I've felt that should have at least been hinted at in terms of his disappointment with Shinji in the prior two arcs, otherwise HF is the equivalent of being 10 dimensionals levels away (using a Sliders analogy) whereas Fate and UBW are 1-2 levels separate from each other. Just because it makes sense to you doesn't make it a good narrative technique. Even the X-Files in its worst writing days (and it did have quite a few) as a case in point didn't make that sort of disjointed narrative within its overarching themes, nor Tsukihime for that matter.
He's not even mentioned in the other two arcs, and I'd imagine that his disappointment with Shinji should be obvious from the fact that Shinji is a total and utter waste of space....

But, anyway, his opinion of Shinji is irrelevant. All Shinji ever is to him is a Xanatos Sucker to further his plans, whether that be fighting the Grail War in Sakura's place and getting himself killed or in moving on Zouken's plans in HF by abusing Sakura and, eventually, giving his life so that she'll finally break.
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