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Old 2008-06-03, 10:02   Link #261
Neku
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What I don't get is the absolute hypocrisy she is doing here. This way of thinking connotes that it's her fear that gave way to the eventual theft or creation of Strike Freedom. The very same thing she wants to get rid of is the same thing she builds upon.
What part of preparing for war counts as fear?

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Why the need for power if the main cause of conflict IS power? You can't hold true to what you are saying when you do the exact opposite of what you need to achieve.
When Lacus&co too, are involved in war eh?
But they were at war, only because the war was already there. The reason they even stood up, was because it involved Orb and the attempt of assassination.

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The involvement of the Archangel and the Freedom in this war creates so much chaos that it isn't what Lacus believes as the key to achieve peace.
The ArchAngel crew were not acting based on Lacus' beliefs. They were helping Cagalli.

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So why would Lacus try to end that war in first place? EA and ZAFT have opposing opinions, therefore they clash. WHAT PART DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
If you are talking about the war in Seed, Lacus was helping Kira and Siegel Clyne himself, was not in league with Patrick. Naturally his daughter isn't as well. If you are talking about the one in Destiny, it was more to Cagalli wanting to end the war because it involved her country.
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Old 2008-06-03, 10:28   Link #262
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What part of preparing for war counts as fear?
Ever heard of why the F-22A was created? It was to strike fear into the enemy, to make them know that they could not counter it. This was the same for Lacus & co to repair the Freedom and the AA. One could not hide the fact that Lacus preserved these to strike fear into the enemy. Which is why an arms race was triggered, Which is why Gilbert went haywire.

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If you are talking about the war in Seed, Lacus was helping Kira and Siegel Clyne himself, was not in league with Patrick.
Lacus was commiting TREASON, Zala was the one in power at that time, and If what you say is correct, then anyone could denounce it and get away with it without paying for it. This is the essence of how plot-ridden Lacus is, because if this is real life, Lacus would be doing what Zero did in episode 8, except that she uses the same excuses over and over again.


If Lacus is really confident that she's speaking for everyone, she would've pulled a people power against Dully.
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Old 2008-06-03, 10:57   Link #263
orni-ed
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What part of preparing for war counts as fear?
Most part of it. I ask you: discounting fear, why do you prepare for war? Because you love the smell of gunpowder?

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When Lacus&co too, are involved in war eh?
But they were at war, only because the war was already there. The reason they even stood up, was because it involved Orb and the attempt of assassination.
... and dominating PLANT isn't exactly a part of their plan...?

Treason is a very big crime to overlook... and she was even lucky to be exiled... So, daughter of clyne or not, she committed treason...

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The ArchAngel crew were not acting based on Lacus' beliefs. They were helping Cagalli.
Really now? They were the ones who decide for Cagalli... I wouldn't say they're not helping cagalli, but their actions are based on lacus's... If I'm really helping out, I wouldn't nab cagalli from her wedding and declare war here and there... I'd rather see Cagalli do her thing with orb...
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Old 2008-06-03, 11:48   Link #264
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Sheesh, some people just want Lacus to be "ebil" whilst she is not. She is pure as snow. We all know that. And some of us hate her for that :P

Treason is not really a crime in my eyes if the one that is betrayed is some dangerous ubermensch-concept-driven patriarch.
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Old 2008-06-03, 15:40   Link #265
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Ever heard of why the F-22A was created? It was to strike fear into the enemy, to make them know that they could not counter it. This was the same for Lacus & co to repair the Freedom and the AA. One could not hide the fact that Lacus preserved these to strike fear into the enemy. Which is why an arms race was triggered, Which is why Gilbert went haywire.
That's daft. You don't strike fear into the heart of your enemy with a secret weapon. She repaired the AA and Freedom in case a war erupted, not because she thought she could scare an army with them.


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Lacus was commiting TREASON, Zala was the one in power at that time, and If what you say is correct, then anyone could denounce it and get away with it without paying for it.
Only if you win. Seriously, if it comes to the point where groups of people are shooting at each other, "who's right?" takes a backseat to "who's left?".

Note, I don't think she was wrong to avert genocide. But maybe that's just me.


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If Lacus is really confident that she's speaking for everyone, she would've pulled a people power against Dully.
She's not confident she speaks for everyone, she's confident she's being the voice of reason there. That's not quite the same thing.

And as for your strategy of defeating Dully in a popularity contest... First, you have to get in a position to do so. Even if she's the Lacus (or, at that point in the story, a Lacus...), she can't just snap her fingers and expect everyone in Zaft to overthrow a duly elected official. And no, I don't care what Dully told Athrun to justify identity theft.

Second, winning such a contest is futile if you get assassinated before you can do anything else.
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Originally Posted by orni-ed View Post
Most part of it. I ask you: discounting fear, why do you prepare for war? Because you love the smell of gunpowder?
Because you know war's coming and intend to win?

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Treason is a very big crime to overlook... and she was even lucky to be exiled... So, daughter of clyne or not, she committed treason...
She wasn't exiled, she just wasn't arrested. Though possibly - considering Meer's appearance - she was pardoned at some point. And since she, well, won, it wouldn't have been weird for her to become Plant Chairman. Or even Generalissima-President-For-Life.

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Really now? They were the ones who decide for Cagalli... I wouldn't say they're not helping cagalli, but their actions are based on lacus's... If I'm really helping out, I wouldn't nab cagalli from her wedding and declare war here and there... I'd rather see Cagalli do her thing with orb...
Abducting Cagalli was a decision made by... actually we don't know. Maybe Kira. Maybe Lacus. Maybe some collective composed of Kira, Lacus, Murrue and Waldtfelt. Whatever. Obviously, they decided that Cagalli was working herself into an impasse. Can't blame them, though philosophically, maybe they should have left Cagalli and Orb suffer the consequences of her incompetence and weak will. Screw philosophy. It might have been right, but it most certainly wouldn't have been smart.

After that - getting between to fighting armies and so on - that was Cagalli's decision.
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Old 2008-06-03, 23:57   Link #266
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's daft. You don't strike fear into the heart of your enemy with a secret weapon. She repaired the AA and Freedom in case a war erupted, not because she thought she could scare an army with them.
She fought to bring a peace treaty which states that N-Jammer Cancellors are banned from mobile suits and then she repairs the Freedom which is in direct violation of the treaty. And then a war breaks out between between EA and ZAFT and she contributes nothing to bringing it to an end. hi5 Lacus .
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Old 2008-06-04, 00:48   Link #267
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I am a HUGE Kira X Lacus fan supporter or whatever you want to call it -- I consider them one of the best anime couples of all time, but this is besides the point. Their character is definitely outrageous, ESPECIALLY Lacus. It's all super unrealistic and very impossible for such characters, BUT I guess I have to remember this is an anime for generally the youth. Young leaders / heroes who are cute and in their teens and wield tremendous power is a huge attraction to most of anime audience because it's something like a dream / fantasy they wish to live themselves. So, to sum it up, they're characters I love but drive me insane at the same time......... interpret it as you wish.
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Old 2008-06-04, 02:21   Link #268
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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
She fought to bring a peace treaty which states that N-Jammer Cancellors are banned from mobile suits and then she repairs the Freedom which is in direct violation of the treaty. And then a war breaks out between between EA and ZAFT and she contributes nothing to bringing it to an end. hi5 Lacus .
1) Please, tell me where in the series it is clearly said that the post Yakin Due treaty bans N-Jammer Cancellers. My memory is a bit scattered.

2) The fact that she fought for peace does not mean she supported the N-Jammer Canceller ban. Maybe she did not have a voice here at all or it was not obeyed this time. When the ashes of war fade, the big-heads get big-headed again and whilst they may've listened to Lacus in the heat of the battle, they sure could deny her words once they feel secure and all powerful again.

ThoHell - yes, it is superunrealistic and almost impossible but I see nothing that I'd find irritating here. Never searched for superrealism in Gundams, unlike others.
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Old 2008-06-04, 10:33   Link #269
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@ Sir Dearka

1) I think the anime mentioned that there would be no more nuclear weapons or anything of that sort and THIS defines the Junius 7 Treaty.

2) What? She went against a major treaty, and saying that she did not support the N Jammer Canceller ban is such... This is kinda outrageous eh. How could you even trust someone who'd break a MAJOR treaty to fight for "peace"? She could do that to the people who believe her, you know. I mean, she just violated a treaty wherein it was banning the nuclear weapons she went up against in the last Jachin Due War. Sheesh.

@ Anh_Minh

1) Oh, but that by itself is REALLY suspicious. She can't be doing anything of that sort cauyse she'll invite suspicion over to what she was doing. Besides, didn't Lacus "resign" from doing anything after the last war in SEED? Terminal et al were only identified and put into place when the plot called for it. She didn't have a valid reason to rebuild the Freedom cause it doesn't MAKE sense. She wasn't being prepared. It was just Morosawa being Morosawa again.

2) I'm all for averting genocide part. But that didn't mean that even if she won, she could get away with it scot free. She was going against a legitimate rule of Patrick Zala, something wherein everything could all go wrong. She stole the Freedom and the Eternal (whatever you say, it's still stealing), which were high class military weapons of ZAFT, then used those weapons against them. She wasn't being smart or prepared again, she was just simply being the plothole character that she is - she can do those things because she SIMPLY can. Can you even do that on your own, hijacking top military secret weapons then use it against people you don't like? I am not sure if the US president's children could get away with something like that. She can be Clyne's daughter, but Clyne cannot actually use his name in giving access to people using SUCH weapons. I think I forgot if Siegel Clyne abhorred the use of those weapons that was why Patrick Zala had him killed so he could use them straightaway. But even so, simply waltzing into a military hangar then giving the Freedom to Kira...LOL Lacus, just LOL.

3) Corazon Aquino would like to have a word with you. She was just a widow of a famous pro-democracy senator here in the Philippines, but the people were very tired of the dictatorial Marcos regime that they supported her willingness to take on the challenge by Marcos, even if she was reluctant to take on that power at first. Then all the people supported her and launched the a people power that overthrew the dictatorial regime without shedding unnecessary bloodshed. I think this people power that Corazon Aquino was part of was also what inspired the Fall of the Berlin Wall.

4) What?

5) Meer is also a plothole devised for Lacus.

6) Cagalli's abduction was masterminded by Kira.
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Old 2008-06-04, 13:34   Link #270
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
@ Sir Dearka

1) I think the anime mentioned that there would be no more nuclear weapons or anything of that sort and THIS defines the Junius 7 Treaty.

2) What? She went against a major treaty, and saying that she did not support the N Jammer Canceller ban is such... This is kinda outrageous eh. How could you even trust someone who'd break a MAJOR treaty to fight for "peace"? She could do that to the people who believe her, you know. I mean, she just violated a treaty wherein it was banning the nuclear weapons she went up against in the last Jachin Due War. Sheesh.
I'd trust someone who actually breaks the rules for the sake of the people. Not mentioning that I still haven't seen anyone pointing out the exact moment in the series where the N-Jammer Canceller was said to be banned after Yakin Due.
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Old 2008-06-04, 15:20   Link #271
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
1) Please, tell me where in the series it is clearly said that the post Yakin Due treaty bans N-Jammer Cancellers. My memory is a bit scattered.
http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds...l#juniustreaty

"...The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons, and all use of Mirage Colloid is banned outright..."

It never occured to you as odd that the Impulse was battery powered?

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2) The fact that she fought for peace does not mean she supported the N-Jammer Canceller ban. Maybe she did not have a voice here at all or it was not obeyed this time. When the ashes of war fade, the big-heads get big-headed again and whilst they may've listened to Lacus in the heat of the battle, they sure could deny her words once they feel secure and all powerful again.
So she doesn't support the terms of the Junius 7 treaty peace treaty, yet she supports peace itself, wtf more does she want? And again, the a war did break out and ZAFT won, the Freedom and AA only managed to piss alot of people off. After which ofcourse she declared war on ZAFT and achieved her 'flawless victory.'
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Old 2008-06-04, 15:32   Link #272
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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds...l#juniustreaty

"...The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons, and all use of Mirage Colloid is banned outright..."

It never occured to you as odd that the Impulse was battery powered?
Yeah, you got me there. Thx for this crucial piece of info. Never really believed in the argument, but now I do. +1 to you

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
So she doesn't support the terms of the Junius 7 treaty peace treaty, yet she supports peace itself, wtf more does she want? And again, the a war did break out and ZAFT won, the Freedom and AA only managed to piss alot of people off. After which ofcourse she declared war on ZAFT and achieved her 'flawless victory.'
Well, the only explanation I have in this case is the fact that Lacus remained pretty cynical and practical at the same time, forseeing that people shall be stupid enough ti start a war again. Like Gilbert. It was not the Clyne faction that startedwar but Gil who planned to use the conflict from the beginning. At least he was depicted as suchduring the last eps of Destiny. The ultimate villain who has shown his true colors when he attacked all the countries which refused to participate in his project. Lacus on the other hand never showed anything but compassion and will to protect others. I think in this case the choice is obvious if one still believes in true "fairy-tale" goodness in this world instead of machiavellistic ways.
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Old 2008-06-04, 16:06   Link #273
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Yeah, you got me there. Thx for this crucial piece of info. Never really believed in the argument, but now I do. +1 to you
*gives self cookie*

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Well, the only explanation I have in this case is the fact that Lacus remained pretty cynical and practical at the same time, forseeing that people shall be stupid enough ti start a war again. Like Gilbert.
But it was Gil who had a plan to stop the endless genocidal wars.

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It was not the Clyne faction that startedwar but Gil who planned to use the conflict from the beginning. At least he was depicted as suchduring the last eps of Destiny.
There were basically two conflicts in Destiny: Zaft vs. EA, and then Zaft vs. team Lacus/Kira. Neither of these wars were instigated by Gil. The EA went to war after Break the World, which Gil tried to stop! And it was team Lacus who declared war on Gil, not the other way around.

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The ultimate villain who has shown his true colors when he attacked all the countries which refused to participate in his project.
Two nations rejected the plan outright, the Scandinavian country and Orb. Gil never showed any hostility to the Scandinavian country, only Orb the one who declared war on him! Now granted he had invaded Orb at an earlier point, but it was because they were hiding the Logos dude.
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Old 2008-06-04, 16:32   Link #274
Sir Dearka
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There were basically two conflicts in Destiny: Zaft vs. EA, and then Zaft vs. team Lacus/Kira. Neither of these wars were instigated by Gil. The EA went to war after Break the World, which Gil tried to stop!
He did try to stop it. When it was convenient to him.

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
And it was team Lacus who declared war on Gil, not the other way around.
Note that team Lacus did not really do anything directly against Gilbert (not counting times when Archangel+Freedom intervened to stop both sides, not always a smart move but still, they just wanted to protect inocent lives without having to pay too high a cost in other innocents). They did not do anything like openly oppose Durandal with "Lacus-squadron-of-justice" until Gil fired at Arzachel. Clyne was suspicious at best or angry about Meer.

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
Two nations rejected the plan outright, the Scandinavian country and Orb. Gil never showed any hostility to the Scandinavian country, only Orb the one who declared war on him! Now granted he had invaded Orb at an earlier point, but it was because they were hiding the Logos dude.
Dude, still, even after Logos was finished Dullindal ordered to fire the Requiem at Arzachel and Orb. Who knows, maybe he'd even do that to Scandinavia later on. It was Gil who was ultimately the one that turned out to be the greatest schemer, ready to destroy countless lives and limit the sovereignity of other countries just to enforce his idea of perfect world. All Lacus does is preventing, and it is usually when the prevented enemy have already made an obvious aggressive move. Unlike Gil who just shot at Arzachel and intended to destroy ORB with megaweapon just because people did not want to be "coordinated".
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Old 2008-06-04, 17:07   Link #275
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Abducting Cagalli was a decision made by... actually we don't know. Maybe Kira. Maybe Lacus. Maybe some collective composed of Kira, Lacus, Murrue and Waldtfelt. Whatever. Obviously, they decided that Cagalli was working herself into an impasse. Can't blame them, though philosophically, maybe they should have left Cagalli and Orb suffer the consequences of her incompetence and weak will. Screw philosophy. It might have been right, but it most certainly wouldn't have been smart.
This was almost certainly Kira's call; none of the other characters was close enough to Cagalli to suggest pulling off something so audacious, and they certainly didn't have as much motive to act. In fact, Lacus was pretty content to let the others decide affairs aboard Archangel - she certainly didn't take any initiative to make any decisions on their behalf.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
1) I think the anime mentioned that there would be no more nuclear weapons or anything of that sort and THIS defines the Junius 7 Treaty.

2) What? She went against a major treaty, and saying that she did not support the N Jammer Canceller ban is such... This is kinda outrageous eh. How could you even trust someone who'd break a MAJOR treaty to fight for "peace"? She could do that to the people who believe her, you know. I mean, she just violated a treaty wherein it was banning the nuclear weapons she went up against in the last Jachin Due War. Sheesh.
How exactly does one go about breaking a treaty that she isn't a signatory to?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
1) Oh, but that by itself is REALLY suspicious. She can't be doing anything of that sort cauyse she'll invite suspicion over to what she was doing. Besides, didn't Lacus "resign" from doing anything after the last war in SEED? Terminal et al were only identified and put into place when the plot called for it. She didn't have a valid reason to rebuild the Freedom cause it doesn't MAKE sense. She wasn't being prepared. It was just Morosawa being Morosawa again.
Clarification: Terminal is the name for a (sort of neutral) intelligence organization. It doesn't have any direct ties to Lacus. Lacus' organization used to be called the Clyne Faction, but they'd probably be more accurately called Lacus Loyalists by Destiny, but we've known that they've existed since Seed. The rebuilding of Freedom was obviously done as an insurance cause, since it was still tuned to a single pilot, and that pilot had no desire to go to war again. Heck, the one person who objected the most to him taking up the reins again was Lacus herself.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
2) I'm all for averting genocide part. But that didn't mean that even if she won, she could get away with it scot free. She was going against a legitimate rule of Patrick Zala, something wherein everything could all go wrong.
I'm not sure if you understand the concept of civil war, rebellions and coups. The very point of these actions is to repudiate the validity of the laws set by the government. And if you win, you form the basis of the new government, and you do get away scot-free (unless you really feel like arresting yourself). At the end of Seed, this is exactly what happened as Eileen Canaver arrested Patrick Zala's followers and declared a ceasefire with the EA. We can also be fairly certain that there were never any prosecutions of Sigel Clyne's followers since they also formed much of Durandal's power base.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
5) Meer is also a plothole devised for Lacus.
How does that work?

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
So she doesn't support the terms of the Junius 7 treaty peace treaty, yet she supports peace itself, wtf more does she want? And again, the a war did break out and ZAFT won, the Freedom and AA only managed to piss alot of people off. After which ofcourse she declared war on ZAFT and achieved her 'flawless victory.'
Thanks for the link. It spells out quite clearly for the first time that the Junius Treaty was negotiated between the EA and PLANT, and that they were the only signatories. Under such circumstances, Orb should not have been subject to any of its stipulations.

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
There were basically two conflicts in Destiny: Zaft vs. EA, and then Zaft vs. team Lacus/Kira. Neither of these wars were instigated by Gil. The EA went to war after Break the World, which Gil tried to stop! And it was team Lacus who declared war on Gil, not the other way around.
Actually, there was just one main conflict in Destiny: Durandal's power play to impose his Destiny Plan.

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
Two nations rejected the plan outright, the Scandinavian country and Orb. Gil never showed any hostility to the Scandinavian country, only Orb the one who declared war on him! Now granted he had invaded Orb at an earlier point, but it was because they were hiding the Logos dude.
That was merely an excuse - PLANT invaded Orb because they were at war with each other. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but this state of war also didn't end until after Durandal died.
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Old 2008-06-04, 19:01   Link #276
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
He did try to stop it. When it was convenient to him.
Wouldn't it be more convenient for him if the colony had dropped in one piece?

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Note that team Lacus did not really do anything directly against Gilbert (not counting times when Archangel+Freedom intervened to stop both sides, not always a smart move but still, they just wanted to protect inocent lives without having to pay too high a cost in other innocents).
Those interventions are easily interpreted as a declaration of war, no matter what the Kira was trying to do.

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They did not do anything like openly oppose Durandal with "Lacus-squadron-of-justice" until Gil fired at Arzachel. Clyne was suspicious at best or angry about Meer.
Actually I believe this is exactly what happens. After reading a notebook (that's not even Gil's) they decide Gil is evil and head into space to stop him (ignoring the without-a-doubt-eviler Djibril). Gil did fire at Arzachel, which was occupied by EA IIRC, which was basically the remainder of his enemy - but Lacus had already decided Gil was evil before this. Anyway, I'm not trying to paint Gil as flawless here, even if I do like the guy I can admit he's done some questionable stuff.

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Dude, still, even after Logos was finished Dullindal ordered to fire the Requiem at Arzachel and Orb. Who knows, maybe he'd even do that to Scandinavia later on.
I doubt he would fire at Scandinavia, but this is just speculation at this point.
Quote:
It was Gil who was ultimately the one that turned out to be the greatest schemer, ready to destroy countless lives and limit the sovereignity of other countries just to enforce his idea of perfect world. All Lacus does is preventing, and it is usually when the prevented enemy have already made an obvious aggressive move. Unlike Gil who just shot at Arzachel and intended to destroy ORB with megaweapon just because people did not want to be "coordinated".
Gil's proposed the Destiny Plan in order stop countless lives being destroyed, not to destroy them himself. Lacus decided Gil was evil and began moving against him before he even announced the plan. And in the end she completely wiped any chance of the plan going through, regardless of the fact that most of Earth was still considering it.

**********************

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Thanks for the link. It spells out quite clearly for the first time that the Junius Treaty was negotiated between the EA and PLANT, and that they were the only signatories. Under such circumstances, Orb should not have been subject to any of its stipulations.
I thought Lacus was still considered part of PLANT. I guess you're right, Orb doesn't need to follow the treaty, but wouldn't it make sense to go along with a treaty that was signed it the attempt to ensure peace? But even then the Freedom was attacking both sides of the conflict, including Orb, making Kira more of a terrorist then anything else.

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Actually, there was just one main conflict in Destiny: Durandal's power play to impose his Destiny Plan.
IIRC Gil didn't even start considering the Destiny Plan until Break the World. The war with EA had already started by then.

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That was merely an excuse - PLANT invaded Orb because they were at war with each other. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but this state of war also didn't end until after Durandal died.
The way I saw it, Gil had already defeated EA and the war was over. Orb mobilizing against Gil was basically them deciding that Gil and the plan were evil, regardless of what any other nation thought.
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Old 2008-06-04, 19:21   Link #277
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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
Wouldn't it be more convenient for him if the colony had dropped in one piece?
Ultimately, he'd want the people's support for the Destiny's Plan. He can't have that if he didn't at least try to stop the fall.
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Those interventions are easily interpreted as a declaration of war, no matter what the Kira was trying to do.
None of this really matters anyway since they've declared themselves as acting under Cagalli, and Orb was already at war with ZAFT.
Quote:
After reading a notebook (that's not even Gil's) they decide Gil is evil and head into space to stop him (ignoring the without-a-doubt-eviler Djibril).
Djibril was a non-issue, some of his forces defected and what's left on Earth were being decimated.
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Old 2008-06-04, 19:59   Link #278
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Ultimately, he'd want the people's support for the Destiny's Plan. He can't have that if he didn't at least try to stop the fall.
I'm quite sure it's stated in Delta Astray that Gil didn't start considering the plan until AFTER Break the World.

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Djibril was a non-issue, some of his forces defected and what's left on Earth were being decimated.
Firing the requiem at colonies is a non-issue ?
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Old 2008-06-04, 22:58   Link #279
monster
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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
I'm quite sure it's stated in Delta Astray that Gil didn't start considering the plan until AFTER Break the World.
The Destiny Plan was already there though (how far along is different story). And either way, it still would not look good on PLANT if ZAFT didn't do anything.
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Firing the requiem at colonies is a non-issue ?
Things beyond their control is also a non-issue.
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Old 2008-06-04, 23:01   Link #280
Eidolon Sniper
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
How exactly does one go about breaking a treaty that she isn't a signatory to?
What? So does that mean, if Dully and the EA didn't also sign the Treaty, that makes them free to do anything that they want? The point here is she broke a TREATY in order to wage a war against really legitimate wars being conducted by ZAFT and EA on each other. A Treaty that she was part of, she was one of the people who brought about that Treaty, whether you like it or not. Her actions in the last war made sure of this, and so the EA and ZAFT adopted that Treaty as to prevent another war from happening again.


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Clarification: Terminal is the name for a (sort of neutral) intelligence organization. It doesn't have any direct ties to Lacus. Lacus' organization used to be called the Clyne Faction, but they'd probably be more accurately called Lacus Loyalists by Destiny, but we've known that they've existed since Seed. The rebuilding of Freedom was obviously done as an insurance cause, since it was still tuned to a single pilot, and that pilot had no desire to go to war again. Heck, the one person who objected the most to him taking up the reins again was Lacus herself.
No, no. Terminal existed after the attempt on Lacus' life. There was no Terminal that existed BEFORE Lacus was supposed to be assassinated. Freedom rebuilt is a HUGE plothole in itself too, cause Lacus, as you said, was still quite "reluctant" at using the Freedom again for war. Then why the heck did she rebuild Freedom? That's a huge contradiction, 4Tran.

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I'm not sure if you understand the concept of civil war, rebellions and coups. The very point of these actions is to repudiate the validity of the laws set by the government. And if you win, you form the basis of the new government, and you do get away scot-free (unless you really feel like arresting yourself). At the end of Seed, this is exactly what happened as Eileen Canaver arrested Patrick Zala's followers and declared a ceasefire with the EA. We can also be fairly certain that there were never any prosecutions of Sigel Clyne's followers since they also formed much of Durandal's power base.
Um, what. The point here is that Lacus waged a war that was wrong in all aspects, and all these aspects could lead her to more grievous consequences if she lost. Stealing the military's top weapons, inciting people to rebellion, etc. It would all be well and good, if she won, and she did win a flawless victory using that premise 2 times already. It was convenient that Lacus is Morosawa's favorite character and so she allowed Lacus to do those things which on ordinary days or if were pulled off/attempted to be pulled off in real life would have a lot of consequences.

Wars using this method are not also secure because, well, it was formed in force and forcefully put an ideal or a belief that the people at that time would be most receptive to, because they didn't like what happened in the previous regime, as in the PLANT/ Earth case, they are already tired of a war and everything could be better as long as they don't have to follow this regime again. Let's say that the coup/rebellion was successful. Of course, as you say, they will employ the nucleus of a new government. Temporary government of course until everything's settled down. But even as they do so, there would be in-fighting with these elements because - let's also say - they only supported the rebellion because they knew that they would be heroes after the war and so they could do anything that they want in exchange for that support. They could form a government which the people would find not what they dreamed would happen in spite of the promises that the rebel faction has agreed to do once they are in power. So aside from the basic in-fighting among themselves, the people would be disillusioned with them too, and this could lead to discontent and another full scale war, until the cycle begins again and again and again.

The problem with what Lacus did is that she only took care of the present threats at that time and she didn't look beyond the possibilities which could lead to another war. Terminal? Factory? They only took care of the present threats in SEED and Destiny, and helped Cagalli in trying to cover up the fact that the Seirans were part of LOGOS. LOL. If Cagalli/ Orb was very much into stopping the war, they could've easily handed the Seirans over to Dully, but no, they chose to hide that fact or tried to protect the Seirans, and because Lacus would lose a valuable ally she could use in the Earth sphere, she went along with Cagalli's decision to try arrest or persecute the Seirans on their own terms. Taking out the forces of the war could do nothing in the face of ensuring that the PLANTs/ Earth could have lasting peace; they have to take out the causes by the roots. Lacus only serves to fuel the disgruntled insurgents further and further into hating her completely because she only dares to take out the forces and has not even done anything to take care of the real cause of the war - the hatred between the Coordinators and the Naturals. In fact, after what she did in the last 2 wars, she only served to widen the gulf between the 2 of them. What could she bring about as being the "mediator" of the PLANTs and the Earth sphere? What could the EA possibly do knowing full well that Lacus is backed by her 3 loyal Knights, Orb, Terminal and Factory? She could most likely scare them into doing what she wants. And forcing people into doing what they don't want is another cause of frustration for them. See what Lacus is trying to paint here 4Tran?

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How does that work?
Of course, Dully had to be "evil" for the sake of Lacus reappearing again in order to perform another "flawless victory". If Dully is the evil madman as a lot of people claim, he can do off with the Lacus act and go straight for Lacus' jugular. Meer was an attempt to bring Lacus "character" into a more "believable" light, cause without Meer, she wouldn't be "inspired" to go against Dully and "try to look what's really going on in the PLANTs". And which was funny cause all she did in space was oversee the construction of SF, IJ and the DOMs and she didn't even bother ensuring or finding out if Dully was up to no good. She only used the notebook to further fuel her "assumptions" that Dully is "evil". Meer's character is really pointless in Destiny. She was killed off without properly fleshing out her character, like what happened to a bunch of other characters that were introduced and never fleshed out as well.

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Thanks for the link. It spells out quite clearly for the first time that the Junius Treaty was negotiated between the EA and PLANT, and that they were the only signatories. Under such circumstances, Orb should not have been subject to any of its stipulations.
And why, pray tell? If Orb were not to follow the Treaty, wouldn't the entire Earth sphere nations cry that it's foul? So what if they were the ones who brought "peace" in the last war? They should at least try to make an effort in showing them a good example and binding themselves to the Treaty should go a long way into making the countries believe that they were really going for the Athha ideals in some way. Ditto with Lacus. If she didn't bind herself to the Treaty, then why should people believe in her and what she can "do"? She breaks all rules so that she could do anything that she wants cause she's Lacus Clyne, end of story. Nope, not a believable leader at that.

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Actually, there was just one main conflict in Destiny: Durandal's power play to impose his Destiny Plan.
LOL That was the most horrible plothole ever. Destiny Plan was not known until the last remaining episodes, so....yeah. Dully was "planning" for this all along. are you serious? Morosawa probably can't do anything with his character already that's why Destiny Plan happened.
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