AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-06-29, 06:10   Link #381
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Kira and his friends on SEED were made to be soldiers aboard the Archangel because they were given honorary dismissals or whatever before the Archangel crashlanded in the desert. Natarle was having a fit because they weren't military people and civilians should not be onboard the ship. But they (Kira and friends) enlisted into the EA anyways. Any more questions?
Yes. So how does that link to Lacus, who opened the locked door herself, with Haro? She was basically a hostage with the identity of a PLANT civilian who is on her way to sing for the military people(or something of that sort, I don't remember accurately) as well as the daughter of Siegel Clyne.

Quote:
So anybody could just get trained "Coordinators" and get themselves high tech ZAFT military equipment if they just know where to ask, mercenaries do that all the time.
Yet not everybody would just get a team to assassinate Lacus with no purpose. Durandal has a motive. Can you name another suspect who has a motive to kill Lacus?

Quote:
ZAFT only knew that the Freedom probably was destroyed, and the "assassin" reactions point to that. They didn't expect Freedom to appear suddenly out of nowhere. The Astray manga helped to tie in the loose ends why Kira survived the explosion in Strike's cockpit and was sent to Lacus, so it means a lot for the manga to confirm that Dully WAS indeed behind the assassination attempt.
Which is why I made it a point to ask, if ZAFT really wanted Freedom back, why didn't they request for its return after identifying it?

The claim that it means a lot for the manga to confirm, doesn't mean that the anime cannot confirm.

Quote:
Cagalli was already worried because they are already breaking the Treaty and she specifically went to Dully to request that it stop. Orb was banned from giving help to either side, and even if it were some sort of goodwill project, it could mean Orb was helping PLANTs to the EA. And Cagalli/Orb was guilty of breaking the Treaty because they could've just flatly stopped it outright before a situation like that (what happened in Destiny ep 1) could happen. Lacus should also follow Cagalli's example, at least Cagalli was trying her best not to do anything that could break the Treaty outright. Also, Orb was banned from giving any kind of their technology to be used on either side as well, they could only use the technology that Orb has developed BEFORE the Treaty happened. Any Orb technology that they developed AFTER the Treaty and could be used by either PLANTs or EA is a big no-no. ZAFT wasn't at fault for doing so, because Orb allowed it to happen, they could've easily refused doing so.
So you proclaim Durandal a liar? I can play with that.
ZAFT was recruiting Coordinators from Orb. Recruit: Coordinators go over willingly. Do you understand why they can? Because Orb didn't officially send them over. Because the Coordinators in Orb were civillians who aren't bound by the treaty. What Cagalli didn't want happen was Orb's civillians helping the ZAFT military with the use of Orb's technology, which would lead to the production of more power.

The treaty stated that Orb is banned from helping both sides. It never banned Orb from developing. Orb didn't allow PLANT or EA to use their manpower. They didn't disallow it either. Which is why Cagalli decided to meet up with Durandal. To cease ZAFT's usage of their manpower and resources.

When Lacus stepped into the war, the treaty was already broken.

Quote:
Which leads me to think that the Treaty was only a joke only to serve heated debates like these.
If you want people to get what you are replying to, please quote.

Quote:
It makes her a plothole character. She can do all of those things and not be penalized for it? It's kinda hypocritical for her to be stopping a war using Freedom and the Archangel to suddenly butt into wars that they have no right being IN. What they did was cause a lot of confusion on both sides. They didn't even bother explaining themselves. So what if they think they're doing the right thing? How could you explain those things to the guys killed in the Lohengrin blast, getting a sonic boom in that base where Lacus made her escape to space, and even Heine's parents, or even in the Destroy incident where they showed up again to cause even more confusion? Even if Lacus stops this war, people would still be discontent, but she will use her resources to stamp out all signs of a rebellion, even forcefully for that matter.
Please do not label Lacus the leader for what has happened, or for all the matters you have stated.

She wasn't the one who kidnapped Cagalli from her marriage with Yuuna nor the one who ordered Kira to do so. She wasn't the one who wanted to stop ZAFT and EA/Orb through the presence of Cagalli nor the one who suggested it. Also, they butt into the war because Cagalli wanted to stop it. She was the President of Orb from that moment until Yuuna disregarded her. Most importantly, the one who wanted to stop everything by then was neither Lacus nor Cagalli. It was Kira.

Yes, Lacus chose to escape to space. She was wrong in this case. Who said she wasn't penalized? ZAFT's forces clearly tried to stop her. But alas, she has Kira. Do you really think that if she was caught, they wouldn't punish her? Of course, Durandal is going to give special orders since she is the real Lacus.

I don't remember Heine's parents. I only remember Heine's death being a stupid way for T.M Revolution's short guest voice acting.

In the Destroy incident, I believe Lacus was still high up in space.

Finally, there was never discontent of Lacus's actions from anyone in the anime after the war. I only see discontent from you.
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)

Last edited by Neku; 2008-06-29 at 06:46.
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-29, 08:41   Link #382
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
@ Neku
  1. Um what? I think it was brought up in the discussion beforehand in this thread that Lacus is probably some sort of soldier or government official in disguise, and she was aboard the Archangel and manning Miriallia's former station. Miriallia was enlisted into the EA before she was allowed to do that.
  2. Other than the blatant Meer ripoff...what? Dully has the gall to assassinate Lacus? If he were to assassinate Lacus, then there would be no need for Meer, he could've easily took over the entire universe for the rest of the series. Dully would need no Lacus to go on with his plan as he could do it himself without ANY help from Lacus' image, if he were that keen on doing that already. And he could've already sent the assassins after Lacus before the events of Destiny too. He had a lot of opportunities to do that BEFOREHAND, and it conveniently has to happen after the PLANT drop, WHEN a lot of people are probably getting too paranoid as a repeat of teh war is again taking place. If he wanted Lacus off the picture he could've done that painlessly and behind the scenes, he doesn't want suspicion to dawn on him because it simply happened too much in such a small timeframe. Astray has no conclusive evidence to back up that assassination attempt, but it had evidence as to why Kira survived the Strike blast, really random as it may seem. If so, if anime has the evidence, please do list down all of them. Dully must've been working with LOGOS (he was a LOGOS member after all) who wanted to do a lot of not so good things on the side, or maybe he has other reasons, but the fact that he states that he "admires Lacus and her power" could probably mean that he knows a political upheaval will happen if he so chooses to kill Lacus now, and knows the consequences of a bungled assassination attempt on her life.
  3. Um, it DID not ban Orb from developing, but what they developed AFTER the war - that was the provision that banned Orb from helping other nations, that other nations could use new Orb technology. Orb can continue (or not? the Treaty in itself is confusing on that matter) developing new weapons technology, but they can't extend their help to other countries (that new technology that was developed after the Treaty was signed).
  4. The fact that Lacus allowed such things to happen makes her as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger. Kira went ahead with the plan, but if Lacus didn't approve of it at all, I think Kira wouldn't do anything foolhardy. He also asked permission from Lacus to use the Freedom again. ZAFT's forces did try to stop her, and she got a lot of people killed in the process because Kira was at her side. She could've already told him beforehand in their conversation before she left for space that she wouldn't want any unnecessary attention or get a lot of innocent people dragged into it at what Kira did. She didn't even have the temerity to look like the real Meer too while at it, even faithful reproduction of her outfit could do. In going with the assassination attempt, Dully could simply just order the forces to fire on her as well since he wants her out of the way, it showed in the first eps of Destiny, why not now?
  5. This is ridiculous if we were to look at Terminal as a planet wide and PLANT wide organization who is a top of the line intelligence network. It is unusual to think that Lacus has no idea what is going on below because Terminal agents seem to know a great deal about what is going on, and they relay a lot of information to her. Something VERY big like the Destroy incident and where Kira almost DIED...heck, PLANTs and Earth were given a Photoshopped view of the incident. Lacus would certainly be very interested to know what is going on in Earth because if she didn't she would have no idea how to react to anything that Dully could throw her way, evidenced by not even realizing that ZAFT was onto her and realizing too late that they were.
  6. Dully, Zala, and all other villains in the CE would like to have a word with you. In technicality, they weren't even going against Lacus' wishes, Lacus just conveniently made the war into her business by fighting for peace and getting 2 flawless victories to go with it. What made it even more ridiculous is the reason that Dully is going after what Lacus wants, except that he pulled an "LOL DESTINY PLAN HIJACK" on all those concerned, in the LAST FEW eps. Also, Conille Almeta struck me as a girl who didn't like the new Lacus regime as well, or maybe I was just wishful thinking. but essentially, people who were against Lacus were killed off, so that is why we're short on people who is discontent or is against Lacus' method of thinking in the anime. bear in mind that she pulls a flawless victory by recruiting Shinn into her personal army as well.
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-30, 07:35   Link #383
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Um what? I think it was brought up in the discussion beforehand in this thread that Lacus is probably some sort of soldier or government official in disguise, and she was aboard the Archangel and manning Miriallia's former station. Miriallia was enlisted into the EA before she was allowed to do that.
So?
And I hope we're talking about the same scene here: when Lacus thought Archangel was a ZAFT airship.

Quote:
Other than the blatant Meer ripoff...what?
Since when was it essential for a villain to have more than one motive to assassinate one that he sees as a threat?

Quote:
Orb can continue (or not? the Treaty in itself is confusing on that matter) developing new weapons technology, but they can't extend their help to other countries (that new technology that was developed after the Treaty was signed).
The fact lies that they didn't willingly or officially extend any help to any side.

Quote:
The fact that Lacus allowed such things to happen makes her as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger.
Allowed what things?

Quote:
Kira went ahead with the plan, but if Lacus didn't approve of it at all, I think Kira wouldn't do anything foolhardy. He also asked permission from Lacus to use the Freedom again.
Kira didn't ask for permission. He told Lacus to give him the key, and when she refused, he persuaded her to.

Quote:
ZAFT's forces did try to stop her, and she got a lot of people killed in the process because Kira was at her side. She could've already told him beforehand in their conversation before she left for space that she wouldn't want any unnecessary attention or get a lot of innocent people dragged into it at what Kira did. She didn't even have the temerity to look like the real Meer too while at it, even faithful reproduction of her outfit could do.
Why should she?
She is Lacus Clyne and the one who was supposed to set off to space, coincidentally, is a girl, the celebrity with the name Lacus Clyne. What is the problem there? So she got a lot of people killed in the process. But why was she pursued when she is the real Lacus Clyne? Because of the existence of Meer. Because of Durandal's plans. If you want to blame anyone, blame Durandal.

Quote:
In going with the assassination attempt, Dully could simply just order the forces to fire on her as well since he wants her out of the way, it showed in the first eps of Destiny, why not now?
Because Durandal isn't stupid.

Quote:
Something VERY big like the Destroy incident and where Kira almost DIED...heck, PLANTs and Earth were given a Photoshopped view of the incident. Lacus would certainly be very interested to know what is going on in Earth because if she didn't she would have no idea how to react to anything that Dully could throw her way, evidenced by not even realizing that ZAFT was onto her and realizing too late that they were.
So you have a problem with Lacus trusting that Kira could take care of himself, and things that's happening on Earth?

Okay. So let's say she did knew Freedom was destroyed. She knew Kira and Archangel was fine. Thus the production of Strike Freedom. So you see, she manufactured Strike Freedom because she knew Freedom was destroyed. No, no she's definitely not preparing for war. She's just giving Kira a new toy because he screwed up the old, previous toy she helped him get.

That said, so what? So what if she knew? What can she do with the Destroy incident? Why must she meddle into that Destroy incident and most importantly, why is she responsible for it when she was high up in space? What do you proclaim her to do? Fly down there ASAP and give a peace speech? Or message Meer to sing on behalf of her?

Quote:
Dully, Zala, and all other villains in the CE would like to have a word with you.
Unfortunately, I don't have this mentality to speak with dead, fictional characters. If that's your answer to my question of "Who's showing discontent?" then I'm sorry but they didn't show anything and nor did they yell the name Lacus Clyne before they died.

Quote:
bear in mind that she pulls a flawless victory by recruiting Shinn into her personal army as well
Just because he's still in ZAFT doesn't mean he's under Lacus.
Plus, the emotional, barbaric Shinn who lost to both Kira and Athrun. What's so flawless or rewarding about him when she already has two Aces in your-so-called her personal army?
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-01, 06:26   Link #384
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
Spoiler for Neku:


@ Sir Dearka

@.@;; what sovereignty? PLANTs/ EA and all other countries were effectively made back to what they were BEFORE the first war happened in SEED. There was no issue with it. Destiny PLAN wasn't even just effectively talking about treating the entire world as a lab test or something. It was only about assigning the right jobs to people with the right genetic makeup for it. It's like countries would only have to follow the genetic superiority of their constituents and it would theoretically allow for no more wars to happen.

Anyway, you say that she has the right not to violate it. So I guess this makes it pretty clear that she did violate it. So in the case of your argument, it's like you're saying that stealing is also OK unless you were caught. In this case, you did still STEAL, and it is wrong. This is the same thing that applies to Lacus. She violated the Treaty, whatever reason that you say that she didn't because she fought for the people. etc. In your logic, it would also be right to assume that killing is also not subject to any kind of punishment, because yes, it can be right under some set conditions like defending oneself from getting killed...but you still killed a person, you took someone else's life, and killing by most accounts and perspectives is bad first and foremost. It still is the same.

The laws were created in a way that it would only allow killing to be forgiven up to a certain degree, and it also is dependent on the accused capacity to secure themselves excellent lawyers, and in some cultures we could be faced with an entirely new cultural perspective in killing other people (like we have an old concept here in the Philippines: "ubusan ng lahi" or vanquishing/killing an entire clan of related kin of the suspect due to something bad that was done to the victim and the victim's family is retaliated at as well until there is literally none left on both sides; not sure if it still happens though in this day and age) or themselves/suicide, like what happens in seppuku (not sure if it is still relevant today). They might think it right, but we may think it wrong, cause it goes against our own upbringing, so it really IS a matter of perspective, but the situation still remains the same, taking another person's life.

@ monstert

You just completely contradicted yourself. In this case, the Treaty then applies to EVERYONE on the planet and in the PLANTs, because the Treaty doesn't only apply to both PLANTs and EA. So yes, Lacus violated it.

So can you give concrete examples as to why you think she didn't break the Treaty? She has Freedom, then she created the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice, which could be theoretically being built in the last 2 years from the end of SEED to the point wherein the SF and IJ were first deployed. They were among those completely banned for what they represent.
But then again, since everybody is making a joke of the Junius Treaty, then we should just state that it was indeed just a joke to make for debate fuel like this. But still, like PLANTs/ EA, Lacus is also one of the many who violated the Treaty. I do not see why you can't comprehend this fact.

So um, how does this not include Lacus in the Treaty breaking? SF and IJ couldn't HAVE been built in a few days, or few episodes, or a few weeks.
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-01, 07:21   Link #385
Sir Dearka
Inglourious Buster
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Eidolon Sniper, by law, she did not violate the treaty. It's like porn in some countries. One could expect a person that lives in Vietnam or Singapore NOT to produce and spread explicit content. But asking people from other countries to do so is ridiculous. Even if you are Singaporean, once you go to the States and you start making porn movies, there's no break of any laws.
Sir Dearka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-02, 01:40   Link #386
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
You just completely contradicted yourself. In this case, the Treaty then applies to EVERYONE on the planet and in the PLANTs, ...
I said that if that was indeed the case, then they would say so. So where does it say that the treaty does not apply only to PLANTs and EA? Everything I've read seems to point to the two sides only.
Quote:
So can you give concrete examples as to why you think she didn't break the Treaty? She has Freedom, ...
That's about all you can really say about her. And since Freedom wasn't used by PLANT government, it's not a violation of the treaty. As for the rest, you keep bringing up SF and IJ, but all you can say about them are theoretical matters. Just put them to rest already, we don't know enough about SF and IJ.
Quote:
But still, like PLANTs/ EA, Lacus is also one of the many who violated the Treaty. I do not see why you can't comprehend this fact.
Because it's not a proven fact to begin with, just a claim that you made. But here are some known facts: the treaty is between PLANTs and EA, the treaty restricts the military forces of both sides, and Freedom is not part of either side's military force. So how would Lacus be breaking the treaty? If she was working under PLANT Supreme Council on Freedom, then maybe you have a case. But even then, it would be PLANT that's breaking the treaty, there would be no need to single out anybody.
Quote:
So um, how does this not include Lacus in the Treaty breaking? SF and IJ couldn't HAVE been built in a few days, or few episodes, or a few weeks.
Because she's not working for either government. And the war didn't just start in the last few days, episodes, or weeks prior to SF's appearance either. Once again, there's no reason why you should dwell on SF and IJ. By the time they got in the picture, the treaty was no longer being openly followed.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-02, 02:42   Link #387
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
@ Sir Dearka

The fact is that they did break laws. So you're basing your argument on reasons that would allow for the criminals to do as they please just because they weren't caught? It's still the same, they did break laws. And even if other countries have more lenient laws than others, the lawbreakers can't change the fact that they did break laws, they still did something bad. It doesn't change the fact that they were lawbreakers, only a more lenient set of laws allow them to do so, but even the more lenient laws have their own limitations, or they could only allow that law to be broken only up to a certain point. Lacus is guilty of breaking the law, just as much as EA and the PLANTs were. How can you not understand that? So it must mean that EA and PLANTs broke the law, but this doesn't mean that Lacus broke it, since the 2 factions already broke the law in the first place? That logic is nonsensical. They still broke laws, whatever angle you put it.

@ monstert

It's because they were the major factions involved in the last war. But even if that was just the case, why did the Treaty also include Orb in what it specified? Besides, the Treaty as we know it are summarized and only brought up specific points of interest such as what was written in wiki and Gundam Official; unless of course, if the entire Treaty was also written down someplace, and allows for a more in-depth view of the Treaty in itself, there could be a possibility that other points of interest are not also included. The PLANTs and the EA are considered the more important points because they are the factions most vulnerable to Treaty breaking, or for whatever reason; the Treaty was put in place to prevent the repeat of the last war that has happened. The mere fact that the Treaty was put in place because of this major reason is enough reason for all people involved, or people on the PLANTs or on Earth for that matter, to not break it, as it could upset the balance of power, and other countries could literally take that breaking of rules or the Treaty as a threat to their country's security.

Lacus used Freedom, and theoretically, since she was welcomed back to the PLANTs at the end of SE IV, it could be assumed that she acts as a rogue part of the PLANTs. If not this argument, Lacus is a private citizen who managed to amass a suspicious army including SF, IJ and the DOMs and is guilty of upsetting the balance that was long since lost at what the PLANTs and the EA did beforehand. She did and still break the Treaty, as much as what these 2 factions did, she is not innocent of not breaking any treaty, and her secretive nature about creating the SF, IJ and DOMs, as well as maintaining an intelligence network that spans the PLANTs and the entire planet without any good reason whatsoever (except for plot reasons) is enough to warrant Lacus Clyne as a scary political figure in the PLANTs and the entire world. She could easily use all those resources of hers to single handedly bring everything down and use it to fortify and strengthen her own power. It's what dictators do.

The SF and IJ were breaking the Treaty's specifics on nuclear armament and technology, and they could be created during the time wherein the PLANTs and the EA were also tackling their own Treaty violations. So yes this is very relevant, because as we don't know how she came to build the 2 suits (after stealing the designs for it ) - it is not as easy as something that could be built in a span of a few episodes only. She is a private citizen, which makes her violating the Treaty as disrespecting the laws or the Treaty even more than what the PLANTs or the EA did. At least the PLANTs and EA had their own reasons why they had to break the Treaty, but they still broke the Treaty nonetheless - it's for going against the other side. Lacus? What reason does she have in creating the new suits, maintaining the intelligence network? She has none. She interfered again in the war, effectively making the war into her own business again. And this is even more so when we only knew about Terminal and Factory in the very same eps that they were introduced.
Whatever the reason, they still broke the Treaty.
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-02, 08:11   Link #388
Sir Dearka
Inglourious Buster
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
@ Sir Dearka

The fact is that they did break laws. So you're basing your argument on reasons that would allow for the criminals to do as they please just because they weren't caught? It's still the same, they did break laws. And even if other countries have more lenient laws than others, the lawbreakers can't change the fact that they did break laws, they still did something bad. It doesn't change the fact that they were lawbreakers, only a more lenient set of laws allow them to do so, but even the more lenient laws have their own limitations, or they could only allow that law to be broken only up to a certain point. Lacus is guilty of breaking the law, just as much as EA and the PLANTs were. How can you not understand that? So it must mean that EA and PLANTs broke the law, but this doesn't mean that Lacus broke it, since the 2 factions already broke the law in the first place? That logic is nonsensical. They still broke laws, whatever angle you put it. .
The thing about laws is that they apply only to those who accept legally (through agreement, treaty or some other document) them or to the certain areas. For some people "porn" could be "evil" for instance or something of a crime sort. But still, they could do nothing about it if it is commited outside the country were the said laws do apply. Lacus lived in ORB so the treaty between EA and ZAFT did not apply there. ORB was not a signatory of the treaty, or if it was, it might have been that certain points did not apply to it, such as the no-Nuclear rule which was only applied mainly to the countries of EA and ZAFT probably.
Sir Dearka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-02, 10:44   Link #389
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
It's because they were the major factions involved in the last war. But even if that was just the case, why did the Treaty also include Orb in what it specified?
As GundamOfficial stated, it is not clear whether Orb's treaty regarding not helping PLANTs is part of the Junius Treaty or not. And I don't think it is because the Junius Treaty restored the sovereignty of all nations that were invaded or conquered during the war, which would include Orb. So Orb was not even a sovereign nation until the treaty was signed by the two parties involved: EA (or more specifically AF) and PLANTs. And since the Junius Treaty freed Orb from AF's jurisdiction, it should also exempt Orb from any treaty that AF made (other than with Orb), which would include the Junius Treaty itself. So Orb's treaty is more likely to be part of some other post-war settlement.
Quote:
Besides, the Treaty as we know it are summarized and only brought up specific points of interest such as what was written in wiki and Gundam Official; unless of course, if the entire Treaty was also written down someplace, and allows for a more in-depth view of the Treaty in itself, there could be a possibility that other points of interest are not also included. The PLANTs and the EA are considered the more important points because they are the factions most vulnerable to Treaty breaking, or for whatever reason; the Treaty was put in place to prevent the repeat of the last war that has happened.
Well we can't say anything about what we don't know. But from what we do know of the treaty, Lacus did not break it.
Quote:
The mere fact that the Treaty was put in place because of this major reason is enough reason for all people involved, or people on the PLANTs or on Earth for that matter, to not break it, as it could upset the balance of power, and other countries could literally take that breaking of rules or the Treaty as a threat to their country's security.
Putting Freedom in a storage hangar does not upset any balance of power. So even then it did not violate the treaty.
Quote:
Lacus used Freedom, and theoretically, since she was welcomed back to the PLANTs at the end of SE IV, it could be assumed that she acts as a rogue part of the PLANTs.
She was welcomed back because she hasn't beein in PLANTs for a long time and they want her there.
Quote:
If not this argument, Lacus is a private citizen who managed to amass a suspicious army including SF, IJ and the DOMs and is guilty of upsetting the balance that was long since lost at what the PLANTs and the EA did beforehand. She did and still break the Treaty, as much as what these 2 factions did, she is not innocent of not breaking any treaty, and her secretive nature about creating the SF, IJ and DOMs, as well as maintaining an intelligence network that spans the PLANTs and the entire planet without any good reason whatsoever (except for plot reasons) is enough to warrant Lacus Clyne as a scary political figure in the PLANTs and the entire world. She could easily use all those resources of hers to single handedly bring everything down and use it to fortify and strengthen her own power. It's what dictators do.
If you want to accuse her of something, then treason to PLANT government would've made more sense then treaty breaking. But even then, that argument is only valid during the war.
Quote:
The SF and IJ were breaking the Treaty's specifics on nuclear armament and technology, and they could be created during the time wherein the PLANTs and the EA were also tackling their own Treaty violations. So yes this is very relevant, because as we don't know how she came to build the 2 suits (after stealing the designs for it ) - it is not as easy as something that could be built in a span of a few episodes only. She is a private citizen, which makes her violating the Treaty as disrespecting the laws or the Treaty even more than what the PLANTs or the EA did. At least the PLANTs and EA had their own reasons why they had to break the Treaty, but they still broke the Treaty nonetheless - it's for going against the other side. Lacus? What reason does she have in creating the new suits, maintaining the intelligence network? She has none. She interfered again in the war, effectively making the war into her own business again. And this is even more so when we only knew about Terminal and Factory in the very same eps that they were introduced.
Whatever the reason, they still broke the Treaty.
Speculations are not relevant at all unless you have something to back it up. SF and IJ could've just as easily been made after Lacus went to space.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-03, 04:56   Link #390
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
@.@; wait what? Then ignore what I just said. But then again, I was talking about her position in the Archangel.
When?

Quote:
I don't know. I mean, Djibril is also a villain, and he should be more than angry/furious enough that Lacus is making such a big fool out of the EA and all the other evil Naturals with him. Why does the suspicion always fall on Dully? But then again the EA is just a bunch of one-dimensional people in Destiny, so it's an injustice on their part if they were given an instance of extreme intelligence like that. Of course, I am only kidding. Seriously, I don't get it why Dully is the only one who gets the short end of the stick in the assassination debate, where there are other people who could be credited with it as well.
Assuming you're replying to my second reply in my previous post, you didn't answer my question.

Quote:
Unwilling? Are you sure? Unwilling = Orb will stop their assistance at once, whatever reason that they have. It's their neutrality on the line you know.
You're missing the point. Orb never lend any direct assistance to ZAFT. It was ZAFT that was recruiting Orb's manpower.

Quote:
Lacus allowed Kira to fight again, going against her stance that she doesn't want to fight anymore/ considers herself retired from the war.
Lacus never said she doesn't want to fight anymore or she retired from war. Of course, her actions hint that she really does not want Kira to pilot Freedom again. But he insisted. She followed. It's as simple as that.

Quote:
Being persuaded to do so does not equally mean that Lacus would allow him to fight.
She's already presuaded to do it. There's no question about whether she would allow or not.

Quote:
Persuasion in this context would mean that Lacus' heart really isn't in at what Kira was fighting for when they were saved in the orphanage, she could've easily distracted Kira because her heart wasn't in it, and they could've gotten all themselves killed.
You striked the point. She really didn't care about anything else except the fact that Kira wants to unleash Freedom again: she didn't want him to, until Andrew shouted and Kira assures her that there is nothing to worry about. She cared for Kira's feelings more than she did for the lives of the children in the orphanage, in case you didn't know.

Quote:
Asking consent from Lacus showed in how Lacus reacted during the entire scene when Freedom defeated those "ZAFT" MS. Kira must know how hard it is for Lacus to accept that he will have to fight again, that's why he has to ask consent from her if he could fight, at least Lacus knows that she wasn't being forced to give up the keys in order just to save their hides. You are giving Lacus' character an injustice, good sir.
He didn't ask for her consent. He asked for the key.

Injustice? I don't think so. I think one of Lacus's characteristics is that although she seems perfect, she is in actual, quite a selfish person.

Quote:
Well, Dully HAS to act like the villain now right?
Durandal knew of Lacus's presence only after she impersonated as Meer to set to space, and just because he managed to find out that Lacus was in Orb does not mean he has the necessary information to locate Lacus when she's in space.

Quote:
It completely goes against the assassination attempt, how it was set up. At least if Dully was to blame for that instance, he could do it countless times if he so needed.
You just need another assassination attempt?
Here: Meer's sacrifice.

Quote:
Do you think if Zala survived, and Lacus all has those things going on for her vanish, would she be as feared?
Sorry, he's dead.

Quote:
She has no reason at all to do those things.
What gives you the liberty to say that she had no reason when she was taking over her father's place as the leader of the Clyne Faction in which, is opposing Zala's leadership?

Quote:
Can you seriously think of a character who has done a lot of things and weren't punished for doing so? Mary Sues and Gary Stus not included. at least, even in real life rebellions, some of them do get punished for what they did, and they also suffer consequences if things go wrong, and they get people who don't like them. Not Lacus.
Yes. A fictional character.

Quote:
What? Um, Lacus is a mediator of the EA/PLANTs, and she was being welcomed in PLANTs for a reason. She must also have a lot of power, because she made Kira into a whitecoat.
Still doesn't mean she's gonna get Shinn into her personal army.

Quote:
And since you seem to dislike Shinn, let me remind you that if Shinn wasn't controlled by what happened, I guess Shinn would probably be killed off too for being useless and a threat to the CF taking full charge of all positions of power in PLANTs and Earth.
Yes, I do dislike Shinn, but I never said he was useless or whatever you stated.

So you're implying that Shinn is supposed to be barbaric, otherwise he's useless? Anyway, I couldn't care less about what would happened if. I am only stating what I think about him: an emotional barbarian.

Quote:
Why would PLANTs would want to give in to Lacus' wishes for making Kira a whitecoat if she wasn't deemed as "powerful" enough? Or if they respect Lacus as some sort of leader for that matter? Shinn is under Lacus' command and you know it does.
Maybe to an extent, she can give orders to Shinn. But giving orders does not equalize to having him in her personal army. Heck, the only ones that are in Lacus's personal army are Andrew, the Zaku trio and the Eternal crew.

Quote:
Shinn could be used to great effect to do other "barbaric" things that you seem to bundle him in with. There you go.
Still doesn't mean he's gonna be in Lacus's personal army.

Please. You don't need to get defensive by my mere opinion about him. Btw, you didn't answer my question for Number 10. How is Shinn superior to Athrun or Kira? What exactly is so flawless about this loser(oops)?
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-03, 05:06   Link #391
Sir Dearka
Inglourious Buster
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Please. You don't need to get defensive by my mere opinion about him. Btw, you didn't answer my question for Number 10. How is Shinn superior to Athrun or Kira? What exactly is so flawless about this loser(oops)?
Allow my to also express my POV here :] The greatest flaw of Destiny Kira is that to me he was just a supacyborg without character development. Athrun on the other hand was so indecisive and confused that he just annoyed me all the time. It's as if he did not learn anything after the first series. Shinn was filled with flaws. Shinn was fresh. Shinn was angry. And this is what gained my sympathy for him Not mentioning AGAIN that his Mobile Suits are just uber cool!! :P
Sir Dearka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-03, 05:30   Link #392
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Allow my to also express my POV here :] The greatest flaw of Destiny Kira is that to me he was just a supacyborg without character development. Athrun on the other hand was so indecisive and confused that he just annoyed me all the time. It's as if he did not learn anything after the first series. Shinn was filled with flaws. Shinn was fresh. Shinn was angry. And this is what gained my sympathy for him Not mentioning AGAIN that his Mobile Suits are just uber cool!! :P
I know what you mean, I do have sympathy for him too, especially when Stellar died. Compared to both Kira and Athrun, he seems to let his emotions, his id take over him too often. Hopefully when the movie comes out, he would have more character development and be calmer.

I have confidence in Morosawa for short scripts. She should be able to pull it off this time, possibly enlarging Shinn's fanbase by making him more likable and not pitiable. Hopefully this time, we'll get to see more Kira&Lacus on-screen too.
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-03, 14:42   Link #393
Eagles
Char clone
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canada
Age: 26
I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread so I hope I'm taking things out of context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku View Post
You just need another assassination attempt?
Here: Meer's sacrifice.
Theres no proof that Gil was behind that. If I'm expected to believe that Lacus and Kira's intentions are pure as snow, I'm going to go right ahead and adopt an 'innocent till proven guilty' stance when it comes to Gil.

As for the whole Shinn debate, I always liked his flawed personality and tragic past. In episode 7 of GSD when Athrun is falling to earth in his zaku, Shinn goes into rescue him and Athrun tells him to leave him because Impulse isnt strong enough to let them both escape earth's gravitational pull. Shinn grabs him anyway and says something like "why are you always saying stuff like that? Shouldn't you say something like 'save me you bastard!'?" Right then and there I knew Shinn was going to be a favorite of mine, it's just too bad that Shinn's character never made any progression and was basically just reduced to another soldier in the last third. Then theres also the fact that Shinn in Impulse was easily the most impressive piloting out of any CE character (in my opinion of course).

Quote:
Plus, the emotional, barbaric Shinn who lost to both Kira and Athrun.
Shinn also beat those two aces. Although in Athrun's case almost anyone would lose. But with Kira? Shinn lost to him once in the earlier episodes of GSD. And then in ep. 34 Shinn took out Freedom. After that the fights between Kira and Shinn ended in ties.
Quote:
What's so flawless or rewarding about him when she already has two Aces in your-so-called her personal army?
Cause you want someone who wins fights without relying on well-timed mental breakdowns or random dips in piloting skill .


edit just noticed this:
Quote:
Yet not everybody would just get a team to assassinate Lacus with no purpose. Durandal has a motive. Can you name another suspect who has a motive to kill Lacus?
How about a Patrick Zala supporter? You know, like those guys who dropped a colony on earth? Plus why would Gil try to assasinate Lacus? If he knows where she is, why not ask her to come back to Plants to lend her support? Its not like there was any reason not to at that point. And having her side with him would make things a lot easier.

Last edited by Eagles; 2008-07-03 at 23:58.
Eagles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-03, 22:53   Link #394
aeriolewinters
Gin-Sama no Tameni!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to aeriolewinters
Quote:
Yet not everybody would just get a team to assassinate Lacus with no purpose. Durandal has a motive. Can you name another suspect who has a motive to kill Lacus?
What about if the motive was not to kill Lacus? What about if the motive was to somehow use somebody else's power? Yes, on the outside it involved killing he but the end motive isn't to get rid of her... Would anyone else qualify?
__________________
Mercury Lampe
aeriolewinters is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-04, 08:13   Link #395
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Can we please steer things back on-topic? The scope of this thread should only be to talk about Lacus's character, and everything else that doesn't relate to that shouldn't be here (whether Archangel's crew broke any laws, etc.). In particular, if you're interested in discussing the identity of the person behind her assassination attempt, that should be done in the Lacus' Assassination (Redux) thread.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-04, 08:38   Link #396
Paladinoras
Pancakes
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
As for the whole Shinn debate, I always liked his flawed personality and tragic past. In episode 7 of GSD when Athrun is falling to earth in his zaku, Shinn goes into rescue him and Athrun tells him to leave him because Impulse isnt strong enough to let them both escape earth's gravitational pull. Shinn grabs him anyway and says something like "why are you always saying stuff like that? Shouldn't you say something like 'save me you bastard!'?" Right then and there I knew Shinn was going to be a favorite of mine, it's just too bad that Shinn's character never made any progression and was basically just reduced to another soldier in the last third. Then theres also the fact that Shinn in Impulse was easily the most impressive piloting out of any CE character (in my opinion of course).


Shinn also beat those two aces. Although in Athrun's case almost anyone would lose. But with Kira? Shinn lost to him once in the earlier episodes of GSD. And then in ep. 34 Shinn took out Freedom. After that the fights between Kira and Shinn ended in ties.
Well, technically, in the Second Battle of ORB, Kira could have killed Shinn. He just didn't, being the saint that he is. And Shinn never beat Athrun, unless you consider a GOUF vs Destiny AND Legend fight fair. When Athrun finally get his mind straight and goes into SEED mode, he is untouchable. I always considered Athrun to be the best pilot in CE. Kira may have more skill, but Athrun doesn't necessarily always disable and can kill.

Well, Shinn is a good character at the start of GSD, but he just makes himself so easily hated at the later parts of GSD. I personally don't like him cause he just screams way too much and have freaky facial expressions at times. But I admit that he is a good pilot and his piloting of Impulse was just amazing. But he is just
too damn easily manipulated.

Oh, sorry for going off-topic here. Just needed to say that.
__________________


Credit to Godlike1889 for the sig!
Paladinoras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-04, 17:14   Link #397
Eagles
Char clone
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canada
Age: 26
Paladinoras, I replied to your post here rather than drag this further off topic.
Eagles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-06, 04:43   Link #398
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
@ 4Tran

Unless the talks get to more of Lacus' assassination (blow-by-blow account), then her assassination in this case is still part of what makes Lacus a plothole character, because she simply started to "deduce" something was wrong with Dully until it was "confirmed" when they saw Meer for the first time and CONFIRMED in the Destiny Plan notebook escapade. It's relevant because this (her assassination attempt) was where Lacus starts feeling that Dully isn't the man who he says he really is, her decision in doing so backed by the "Coordinator" assassins and the top caliber "ZAFT" MS running amok in the orphanage.

@ monstert

No, no. read the Treaty again. For some reason, Cagalli was afraid of the repercussion. No non-signatory would be scared like that, or then use the excuse that "EA might find what we are doing as helping the PLANTs after the war" (Cagalli). Orb WAS already a sovereign nation before AF/EA barged into their territory. Where the heck did you get the assumption that they never were until the Treaty was signed? They weren't under EA rule until Azrael decided to invade Orb. Uzumi didn't bow down to EA pressure. So Orb got burned down. You would not simply be scared of breaking any rules if you think nothing is wrong with what you are doing. Orb has tried to call for a cessation of what the PLANTs were doing a couple of times before Cagalli decided to go to Dully personally to see that it was stopped. That isn't something that would point out that Orb wasn't INVOLVED in the Treaty at all. If they weren't, they could've just continued on giving help to PLANTs. Cagalli wasn't just being scared, Orb has tried to do that prior to her visit to Dully, telling us that something was off at this point, that there is indeed something going on behind Cagalli's visit. Stop being obtuse about it, the first ep of Destiny already disproves that they are NOT a signatory or NOT involved with the Treaty. They ARE.

What? Instant MS/Gundams? Even for the CE that's too ridiculous. You can't build Gundams in just a few days. >.>;; Stop going on as if Lacus did not break anything because she really did break the Treaty as much as the EA and the PLANTs. It did upset the balance of power because she even put Orb in a more evil light, if it was discovered. A more fitting angle to the SF/IJ debate is that they use batteries that are powered from a nuclear power source, something that was brought up in /m/ some weeks ago. Since they use batteries (alongside Destiny and Legend), then they cannot be held liable for breaking the Treaty, but they ARE using power from nuclear sources, which brings this case to moot.

@ Sir Dearka

Porn is only allowable to a certain point in countries that do have lenient laws against them, something which people should not push too far. Orb is somehow, possibly, a part of the Treaty, as evidenced by the 1st ep of Destiny. So while Cagalli is acting scared or is worried of the repercussions that Orb is facing from a direct threat from the EA, Lacus has the Freedom in the hangar, and the existence of the NJC alone merits it to break the Treaty completely in all aspects of the Treaty (banning of nuclear powered technology or weaponry except for power plants on Earth), even if she wasn't using it. But then again, why is Cagalli acting worried about Orb's help to ZAFT, and she is not worried about Freedom's repercussion at all? LOL plotholes? Or maybe that's the reason why SHE was worried, EA might discover she was hiding and allowing Lacus to hide the Freedom in the first place.

@ Neku

Yes, it was the Meer ripoff I was replying to. Other than the Meer ripoff...um wait...even Meer doesn't actually add anything to the "Dully is a villain tally". If Meer was doing something like outright like declaring genocide on the Naturals, then we know that Dully is up to no good. Seriously, there is nothing that Meer did that Lacus wouldn't have probably done if she was still in the PLANTs.

ZAFT can't be using Orb technology/manpower if Orb didn't allow them to or help them in any way.

Lacus gave me the impression in the Valley of the Stars that she simply wants to retire from active participation in the war and live a quiet life as possible with Kira in the orphanage. Kira must know that it is hard for Lacus for him to be fighting again, that is why he asked for her consent if he could. 2 years in the orphanage, living completely peaceful lives, until she gets almost assassinated? Persuading Lacus is too horrible for Kira to even think of so that Lacus could give him the keys. Again, you're giving Lacus' character an injustice.

Erm...you did say he was barbaric in this post. Which he isn't, really. Where did you get Shinn being barbaric?

Well, what reason did she have in going against Zala in the first place? They were guilty of stealing and giving away top secret ZAFT military weapons to a sworn enemy, so Lacus going against them is quite ridiculous at this point. This becomes even more ridiculous as she is going against a legally correct regime, it would've made more sense if Patrick Zala forcibly wrested the power away from Siegel Clyne. And of course, all that Lacus did from the point wherein she was saved by her father's loyalists onwards warranted no big of loss for her, and she continued doing this in Destiny, where her retirement from the war (in the first few eps) makes no sense. If she really was concerned about the CF's cause, she would've at least respected it and tried to do something about it. She knew how hard her father worked for the loyalty he gained and the support he also gained from his followers, she can't just bank on her "power" alone to do that or use her "power" to clearly dictate what is right and what is wrong in her opinion. Instead we are faced with plotholes Terminal and Factory, and the Destiny Plan moment that cemented her belief that Dully was "wrong" and should be dealt with accordingly.

But it's funny...how come SF and IJ were with her at the ending eps of Destiny? I would probably assign IJ to Orb at this point, as what SE IV suggests, and SF and Destiny to Lacus, since Lacus is now back in PLANTs as a mediator, she has Kira the whitecoat by her side, and has Shinn the redcoat there as well. We possibly do not know if Lacus is the new chairwoman of PLANT, but wresting a whitecoat for Kira must mean something!
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-06, 05:18   Link #399
Sir Dearka
Inglourious Buster
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Spoiler for Off-Topic on porn ;):


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Orb is somehow, possibly, a part of the Treaty, as evidenced by the 1st ep of Destiny. So while Cagalli is acting scared or is worried of the repercussions that Orb is facing from a direct threat from the EA, Lacus has the Freedom in the hangar, and the existence of the NJC alone merits it to break the Treaty completely in all aspects of the Treaty (banning of nuclear powered technology or weaponry except for power plants on Earth), even if she wasn't using it. But then again, why is Cagalli acting worried about Orb's help to ZAFT, and she is not worried about Freedom's repercussion at all? LOL plotholes? Or maybe that's the reason why SHE was worried, EA might discover she was hiding and allowing Lacus to hide the Freedom in the first place.
ORB might be a part of the treaty. Or it is just an observer country which does have its foreign politics, right? One of those is propably watching out for potential threats such as ZAFT strengthening its military power. However, Dullindal already knew about ORB's position as a fully equipped country in terms of military facilities. He said so... "Nothing could be done without power. YOu should understand it more than anyone. Isn't that the reason ORB maintains full military facilities?" Cagalli DOES seem to be worried. But seems there is no word in the treaty that forbids ZAFT or Orb to progress in terms of military unless it is nuclear powered. It's just:

a) Orb is probably not restricted by the treaty as much as ZAFT or EA (this might include N-Jammer Cancellers etc.).

b) After the last war, Orb tries to retrieve its position as a neutral country that tries to be as impartial as possible in international politics but watch out for potential threats of war. Seeing how EA's and ZAFT's higher ups became genocidal maniacs in the first war, there is nothing strange in the fact that many viewers share Cagalli's sentiments and worries.
Sir Dearka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-07-06, 05:50   Link #400
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
Spoiler for for more off-topic-ness:



Quote:
ORB might be a part of the treaty. Or it is just an observer country which does have its foreign politics, right? One of those is propably watching out for potential threats such as ZAFT strengthening its military power. However, Dullindal already knew about ORB's position as a fully equipped country in terms of military facilities. He said so... "Nothing could be done without power. YOu should understand it more than anyone. Isn't that the reason ORB maintains full military facilities?" Cagalli DOES seem to be worried. But seems there is no word in the treaty that forbids ZAFT or Orb to progress in terms of military unless it is nuclear powered. It's just:

a) Orb is probably not restricted by the treaty as much as ZAFT or EA (this might include N-Jammer Cancellers etc.).

b) After the last war, Orb tries to retrieve its position as a neutral country that tries to be as impartial as possible in international politics but watch out for potential threats of war. Seeing how EA's and ZAFT's higher ups became genocidal maniacs in the first war, there is nothing strange in the fact that many viewers share Cagalli's sentiments and worries.
It's listed in the Treaty, for whatever reason that it's there as what was stated in Gundam Official. And wiki has even outlined several instances about the Treaty which includes Orb in it. The ban on nuclear technology as listed is also probably applicable to Orb at some point, because unless you count Freedom, Orb doesn't have any nuclear technology around (unless the Astray manga has this as well, that Orb has their own little nuclear technology secrets); it must mean that they are either also binding themselves to that Treaty or they have their own secrets that weren't touched upon. It was also stated in the Treaty that ZAFT and the EA are only allowed previous Orb technology from the first war to be used, it didn't say anything that Orb cannot develop anything after the last war, but it also said that Orb cannot aid ZAFT or EA, or letting them use Orb technology developed after the last war. Or if Akatsuki was using NJC (its power source is listed as unknown at this point as stated in mahq, but the Fin Funnels and its ability to create an impenetrable positron beam barrier shield must make for an infinite source of energy), then Orb was also breaking the Treaty as well.
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.