Fate/stay night Episode 22 Discussion thread

[Nameless]

Um... I think Saber would be okay with staying by drinking the Grail or replenishing her mana with Shirou or through Sakura, and I think she'd also be okay with coming back for each grail war.

Why? Because I think if she's really ACCEPTING her fate, then she'd accept a fate of coming back every war to make sure the grail gets destroyed every war.

Tell me, if you really believe in Shirou's will and his testament against the war, then do you think he or Saber would be okay with only destroying the grail this war, but letting the grail appear every 10 years to repeat the chances of great destruction/pain/agony?

If I were in Saber/Shirou's position, I'd want to do all that is possible to prevent the grail from being obtained by anyone, even if that means coming back every 10 years for every war. And hey, at least she'd have lived a life with Shirou and ALSO known she can have an influence on the prevention of a grail wish being "granted".

THAT is a justifiable ending. Saber going back to her time and dying with a heartache for Shirou. Shirou losing Saber and going on with his life to settle with Sakura/Rin (when he loved Saber more) and neither of them doing anything about the grail's return in 10 years, just sounds like an UNJUST, WRONGFUL, coward depressing ending to me.

[Nameless]

Demongod, I haven't seen a lot of your posts prior to this thread, but I find that I agree with you on a LOT.

Good post/speculation.

[monster]

Nameless, could you please not double post so much? Just edit your fist message next time if you want to add something. Thanks

Anyways, I'd say either sad or happy ending could still happen in my opinion. Especially with Saber's affirmation of Shirou's importance to her in this episode.

By the way, didn't the producer/director say they were going to make something new for the ending of F/sn?

[kamikazex]

i hope they did..

[Darkside]

They need the Gilgamesh ending where he kills everyone and lives happily ever after with his belonging.

[gammaoh]

Originally Posted by Nameless

Um... I think Saber would be okay with staying by drinking the Grail or replenishing her mana with Shirou or through Sakura, and I think she'd also be okay with coming back for each grail war.

Why? Because I think if she's really ACCEPTING her fate, then she'd accept a fate of coming back every war to make sure the grail gets destroyed every war.

Tell me, if you really believe in Shirou's will and his testament against the war, then do you think he or Saber would be okay with only destroying the grail this war, but letting the grail appear every 10 years to repeat the chances of great destruction/pain/agony?

If I were in Saber/Shirou's position, I'd want to do all that is possible to prevent the grail from being obtained by anyone, even if that means coming back every 10 years for every war. And hey, at least she'd have lived a life with Shirou and ALSO known she can have an influence on the prevention of a grail wish being "granted".

THAT is a justifiable ending. Saber going back to her time and dying with a heartache for Shirou. Shirou losing Saber and going on with his life to settle with Sakura/Rin (when he loved Saber more) and neither of them doing anything about the grail's return in 10 years, just sounds like an UNJUST, WRONGFUL, coward depressing ending to me.

I could give you some hints regarding what you just proposed as an ending but you'd yell at me for giving away things you don't want to know.

Just keep in mind that there may have ways in which the Grail cannot return.

And also, Heroic Spirits are not only summoned as Servants. There are also summoned as "Counter Guardians" ou "Counter Force" which is not a very honorable job. This is also why our dear Archer regrets all his existence (since we can't talk about life any longer).

[Nameless]

Also with the directors saying the anime is going to have an ending different from the game's endings, and us seeing Shirou using Trace in the preview of the next episode, I actually think it's more plausible that we'll not only see UBW but Saber staying.

Gammaoh you're more than welcome to PM me to discuss this, but I'd rather you kept any game spoilers/hints out of this thread, even if spoiler tagged. I've already been tainted with the game players ignorant abuse of the rule system on this board, but I'd rather no other anime viewers get ruined.

Or we could even discuss it in the game thread as a relative subject to the anime.

I have my theories as well based on what I've read about Heaven's Feel/Fate ending and what the anime writers have actually said themselves.

[gammaoh]

Originally Posted by Nameless

Also with the directors saying the anime is going to have an ending different from the game's endings, and us seeing Shirou using Trace in the preview of the next episode, I actually think it's more plausible that we'll not only see UBW but Saber staying.

Gammaoh you're more than welcome to PM me to discuss this, but I'd rather you kept any game spoilers/hints out of this thread, even if spoiler tagged. I've already been tainted with the game players ignorant abuse of the rule system on this board, but I'd rather no other anime viewers get ruined.

Or we could even discuss it in the game thread as a relative subject to the anime.

I have my theories as well based on what I've read about Heaven's Feel/Fate ending and what the anime writers have actually said themselves.

Dude, you know I'm willing almost as much as you are to see a different ending than the game's. It's just that, honestly, episode 22 has ruined most of my hopes.

Since I know your wish of not being spoiled so that you discover everything by yourself in the anime and eventually ask question thereafter, I'll refrain from giving away things. The problem for gamers is that we sometimes do not know when the line is crossed. Hence the fact that I prefer to not move at all on the subject.

However, I'm really curious about what you said concerning the directors. Can you give further explanations about what they said? It may raise my hopes again.

[andiyar]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Random stuff about Rider. A lot of it.

I'd like to make a contribution here. Basically, the problem that you have with Rider's death, role in the anime, characterisation, and so on and so forth, is that it is not accurate with regards to 'her true character.' Correct, yes?

A simple question for you. Where is Rider's 'true' character defined? In 'Fate/stay night' alone? In additional material such as 'Fate/hollow ataraxia? In fan-served calculating and rambling?

From what I've read I believe that the majority of the conditions that you ascribe to rider, especially the bookish loveable ones that you constantly reiterate, are referred to primarily in Fate/hollow ataraxia - as is the majority of her character backstory and her personality. Am I right?

We're watching the anime Fate/stay night. Not the anime Fate/hollow ataraxia.


You may argue that these stories are inextricably linked, and that character profiles and such should be carried across - indeed, to my mind, that is what you are arguing. Here's a little analogy for you, taken from Western literature.

Let's use the works of J.R.R Tolkien for this example. The Hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings, specifically. Assume that you are making, oh, a movie or a TV show based on The Hobbit. Animated, live action, whatever - the medium doesn't matter too much. So you're making your movie - but wait. There's a sequel out there called 'The Lord of the Rings' which elaborates a great deal of what you're going to talk about - there's also The Silmarillion, if you feel like going back to the past. Decisions, decisions. Do you change aspects of The Hobbit based on its prequel and sequel? Should Bilbo, for instance, note the Elvish script on his invisibility ring that declares it to be the One Ring in LoTR? Should the Necromancer of Dol Guldur be identified as Sauron, the Lord of the Rings? Should there be references to Gandalf's past as a Maiar, and to him wielding Narya? Wow, these characters and events in The Hobbit have so much happening later that elaborates upon and redefines them! We'd be stupid, and cheating the viewers, if we didn't cram as much in as possible to illuminate them from beyond the 'canon' text!

I certainly hope I'm making my point here. Yes, Fate/stay night and Fate/hollow ataraxia are linked. However, from my understanding Hollow Ataraxia takes place in a somewhat 'alternate universe' to Stay Night. A universe where all the Servants are still around, various wacky hijinks are ensuing, oh, and a fun and enjoyable plot too. But regardless, Fate/hollow ataraxia is not Fate/stay night.

Sure. Same authors. Same characters (arguable). Same world (again, arguable). Different story though. Characters change between stories. You can't just take a character from one story and drop them into something else they've appeared as a sideshow in and expect everything to still work. You've said that the producers/writers should have rewritten the story to include more details, to support your characters, etc.

From where I'm sitting though, Fate/stay night has several superb stories in its own right, even if they aren't being told perfectly. Why should they introduce elements from other stories that, let's be perfectly clear, are other stories when they have the material already there to draw from? Yes, they could have elaborated on Rider's character somewhat a lá Heaven's Feel. But they chose to go a more palatable (to the general viewer) path through the story. And therefore, in the version that they have shown, Rider is as she is. No matter how much people protest, pointing at other materials, Rider still exists how she has been portrayed. Many other things in Fate/stay night have been screwed over in the anime far more than Rider's character, or lack thereof. And most of them have greater textual support within the anime. Rider's character wasn't.


-Andiyar

[angel killer]

to me i can see ubw happening at the end more and more we have seen another weapon archer uses it thie episode the Caldabolg but he used it as an arrow and if i remember correct the creators said tell me if im wrong but we should expect alot of differences from the game .......PLEASE UBW plus i would like to see a fight in ubw cause we dont see it happen in ep 14 what happens dose he just image loads of weapons like gate of b

[gammaoh]

Very good post Andiyar and it's a shame I can't give you any more rep (is the forum having a glitch?).

Anyway, you proved logically (we see here a true scientist, don't we? How was the molecular cells exam by the way?) why there was no point in developing Rider as she is in F/HA.

However, since Demongod stands firm in his grounds, he may not change his opinion. But still, you've cleared up some points maybe for some other people here or future members.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Tekkaman Zero

Even with Gil' & Archer in the background. ^^;

Heh, Lancer trys so hard to be a good fisherman.. i like him more when he's working at the store.

[Demongod86]

Actually it's not just FHA Rider. Isn't it written somewhere that Servants are summoned BASED ON THEIR MASTER, and that THIS COMPATIBILITY is determined by the SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MASTER AND SERVANT?

Therefore, since Sakura summoned Rider, (and yes that is from outside sources like a lot of other crap in regards to this anime is), it would not be too farfetched to assume that Rider shared quite a few similarities with Sakura. At least in terms of being sweet and quiet...because as far as even FSN showed, Rider seemed to be a very quiet person, soft-spoken, and could tell when people were good ones. I don't know, but I think that there was a LOT more to Rider than what was shown since the anime mainly took a "Fate" route when Heaven's Feel was the one that fleshed Rider out (mainly since Saber went evil ...so much for a hot Rider XXX Saber scene =P), which also was missing from the anime.

[Shiroth]

Page 12 of the Episode 22 discussion thread.. and you're still going on about Rider?

Let it go, we all know how good of a character she is. & even though i did like her with Shinji, yes she should have been with Sakura.. but thats just how the story is.

[gammaoh]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Actually it's not just FHA Rider. Isn't it written somewhere that Servants are summoned BASED ON THEIR MASTER, and that THIS COMPATIBILITY is determined by the SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MASTER AND SERVANT?

Therefore, since Sakura summoned Rider, (and yes that is from outside sources like a lot of other crap in regards to this anime is), it would not be too farfetched to assume that Rider shared quite a few similarities with Sakura. At least in terms of being sweet and quiet...because as far as even FSN showed, Rider seemed to be a very quiet person, soft-spoken, and could tell when people were good ones. I don't know, but I think that there was a LOT more to Rider than what was shown since the anime mainly took a "Fate" route when Heaven's Feel was the one that fleshed Rider out (mainly since Saber went evil ...so much for a hot Rider XXX Saber scene =P), which also was missing from the anime.

Dude, don't push fanboyism too far. Honestly, you're gonna hurt yourself for good.

[Reppa]

Originally Posted by Tekkaman Zero

let us take one minute of silence for the cool Irish hero.

Yes he went out fighting. As opposed to Caster who just took it in the face.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Reppa

As opposed to Caster who just took it in the face.

I believe you forgot that she went out protecting the man she love's.

[aldeayeah]

They're two very different deaths. Caster wasn't thinking about fighting or saving herself at all - just about saving her precious one. Lancer tried his best, and accepted defeat.

By the way... when he can, Gilgamesh always targets first the master, doesn't he? He may be arrogant, but it looks like he's at least practical - he normally chooses the easy way rather than showing off. Just like this fight - binding Lancer before he had the chance of delivering some potentially dangerous attacks.

(We all know Saber is an exception, as she seems to be Gil's soft spot)

That's the way a chaotic alignment character is supposed to fight, isn't it? It makes him even more dangerous when compared to all those "noble" type Servants we see.

[gammaoh]

Originally Posted by aldeayeah

They're two very different deaths. Caster wasn't thinking about fighting or saving herself at all - just about saving her precious one. Lancer tried his best, and accepted defeat.

By the way... when he can, Gilgamesh always targets first the master, doesn't he? He may be arrogant, but it looks like he's at least practical - he normally chooses the easy way rather than showing off. Just like this fight - binding Lancer before he had the chance of delivering some potentially dangerous attacks.

(We all know Saber is an exception, as she seems to be Gil's soft spot)

That's the way a chaotic alignment character is supposed to fight, isn't it? It makes him even more dangerous when compared to all those "noble" type Servants we see.

By noble, you actually mean someone like Assassin right?

Actually, Gilgamesh is not a coward. He never showed any preference in fighting. He just likes efficacy. But he's not someone who's gonna pull out dirty tricks either. Actually, he's pretty noble as well. That's what he is supposed to be.

But it's true he doesn't bear the same ideals as Kojirou for instance, who will never attack anyone else but his chosen target.

[Deathkillz]

the servent classes: saber, archer and lancer are considered as knights so they are the most noble in my opinion...i think they would fight fair and square unlike other classes such as rider and caster class...but it also depends on the heroic spirit itself...i think gil is lacking a bit on the noble side seen as he killed poor lancer by immoblising him first...a true knight would fight on equal terms i think