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Old 2006-06-13, 16:07   Link #41
Huhtis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
And the United States weren't at war with Japan when they decided to play Gunboat Diplomacy and stationed a battle fleet in Japanese territorial waters and threatened Japan with military action unless they opened up their borders - so it's ok for the US to threaten Japan with force to do what it wants, but not for Japan to retaliate? Talk about a double standard.



Excuse me? Over half a million civilians died from the fire bombings of Tokyo and the atomic bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Please don't fucking tell me you believe they deserved that because an AMERICAN MILITARY TARGET was attacked, something they had nothing at all to do with!



Don't you dare. Don't you FUCKING DARE try to hijack history and disrespect the memories and accomplishments of the Allied forces in Europe. Do you think the US were alone in storming the beaches of Normandy? This is so incredibly typical of an ignorant person whose only studies of the second world war consists of watching "Saving Private Ryan". Get a loan, go to college and get yourself a clue, thanks.

If you want to know why "everyone" bashes America, perhaps you should take your head out of the ground and gain some knowledge about the world and recent history, especially that including US foreign politics - you know, the habit of overthrowing democratically elected governments and sponsoring dictatorships.



I know, from a purely tactical viewpoint they were preferrable, but I didn't have the time to write that when I wrote it.
Oh Man, You just pwned him.

But stop this WW2 crap.
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Old 2006-06-13, 16:13   Link #42
freelancer3018
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The atomic attacks on Japan saved more lives than it took. Japan by this time had lost over a million people. A land invasion of Japan would've cost around 1mil American lives and countless more Japanese lives due to their no surrender policy. Also Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both high industrial plces for the Japanese military. Thus making those two cities military targets.

Also if the Japanese had the ability to reach the West Coast of the US do you really think they wouldn't have bombed the cities. The Japanese had showed no sign of caring about civilians for example like what they did in China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last_Hope
Did you partake in WWII?
I dont think he is refering to himself but to his country which he is apart of.
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Old 2006-06-13, 16:22   Link #43
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Ack. What is this? the nationstates general forum?

Less WW2, more Gundam(Or at least something akin to it).

And for Orbital platforms...more for commercial interests than for defence probably, I don't see much that orbital platforms could handle that a normal Satelitte couldn't right now. No need to put rail guns or whatever on them to fight insurgents
We got enough crap in orbit as it is.
Now, using them to get to the moon and do something creative would be a much better thing, there are quite a few rich people willing to pay for their own Las Vegas on the moon. Imagine the revenue!(And the horrible expenses!).
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Old 2006-06-13, 16:25   Link #44
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So uh...back on topic.

Quote:
I feel more comfortable with them in space than I do the America or Communist countries in space.
I hope that's not based just on the Japanese being home to anime. In fact, I'd feel more uncomfortable with the Japanese in space. I'd rather have the UN form a space command and have full jurisdiction to deploy a space fleet under the security council.

Japanese military in space? I doubt it for two reasons

1 - China, Korea, and Taiwan would be completely against any japanese military presence.

2 - Manpower, namely production. I don't think Japan has that. And of course the budget perhaps.

Quote:
I think this is more a response to the US's ongoing desire to develope and deploy orbiting weapons platforms, that would circle the globe to 'protect their homeland security', than anything else.
No one would like to have orbiting weapons platforms that can fire weapons into the Earth. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I knew there's a satellite up there that can shoot through the Earth's atmosphere.

And production of Gundams? That's bull, it's a fantasy world, MS(By Gundam standards) are impractical.
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Old 2006-06-13, 16:48   Link #45
Aidan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by true_cricket
Do you know what Galileo Project is? A european GPS. And the first satellite was launched a few montsh ago.
Yes yes, I've heard about it, but as far as I know, Europe hasn't switched over to their own network just yet. It will in the future and it will be more precise than the US system. So far, they've only laughed a test satellite afaik. It's an international effort too, so it's good.
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Last edited by Aidan; 2006-06-13 at 19:33.
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Old 2006-06-13, 17:02   Link #46
JanthraX^
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A military space in force is pretty pointless atm, there is no viable gain from having a military force in space atm. The only viable tactical option is a wepaons defense platform, like 'Star Wars' to shot down ICBM's. However the deployment of these may lead to a deployment of counter weopans and lead to unmaned vehicles fighting space, thats the closest thing to space warfare i can see.

Howvere when we have assets, colonies on the moon and eventually (hopefully) other planets countries may begin to deploy a space force. However if that happens i would hope that Earth is united much like Star Trek.

I dont think Japan have any militaristic plans for space. But want to do what europe is doing in launching its own GPS satellite and weather probes.
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Old 2006-06-13, 17:54   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
Don't you dare. Don't you FUCKING DARE try to hijack history and disrespect the memories and accomplishments of the Allied forces in Europe. Do you think the US were alone in storming the beaches of Normandy? This is so incredibly typical of an ignorant person whose only studies of the second world war consists of watching "Saving Private Ryan". Get a loan, go to college and get yourself a clue, thanks.

If you want to know why "everyone" bashes America, perhaps you should take your head out of the ground and gain some knowledge about the world and recent history, especially that including US foreign politics - you know, the habit of overthrowing democratically elected governments and sponsoring dictatorships.


I don't recommend the college part. If he takes a WWII class trust me it will most likely focus on the US views of WWII. It's history not the truth. His views would only be reinforced. Trust me if you want to learn just teach yourself. Our school system sucks and college is no exception to that.

Some example of what Srb and others are refering to with our foreign policies.

1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadegh of Iran. U.S. installs the Shah as dictator.
1954: U.S. overthrows democratically elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians are killed.
September 11, 1973: U.S. stages a military coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator General Augusto Pinochet installed. 3,000 Chileans murdered.
1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans were killed.
1981: Reagan administration trains and funds Contras. 30,000 Nicaraguans die.
1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
1983: The White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.
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Old 2006-06-13, 18:20   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurz
The people of Japan didnt deserve that...
If they were going to bomb something. Bomb the Military installation!
Or bomb off the coast of Japan!

Show them, "Hey we have the power to kill thousands of people in an instant, Surrender!"

Do not treat the government of a country and the people who live in the same country the same.
Even though I don't exactly agree with Zechs Merquies's "tone," I'm gonna have to say that your suggestion in terms of "show them" doesn't really work. We are talking about a nation at a time that would have its troops train within the confines of victory being more important than life. What you suggest just couldn't be expected to work after what the Japanese government did in terms of instillin a certain mentality into the populace.

Also, the bombings of Japan weren't just simply senseless dropping with no thought into where they fall. If it was, well, Kyoto wouldn't exist.
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Old 2006-06-13, 18:59   Link #49
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At least the US goes AFTER the terrorists in the world, unlike the UN...
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Old 2006-06-13, 19:22   Link #50
reinloch
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To answer the original question, the Japanese has neither the money nor technical expertise to militarize space before the US and China.

The Soviets had done it much earlier via the Salyut/Almaz program and had deemed such exercise futile.

And I still maintain that the F-2 is a failure. And to say that it outperforms Viper variants like the Block 60 AESA or the IDF 16I, WTF?
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Old 2006-06-13, 19:27   Link #51
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
I dont think Japan have any militaristic plans for space. But want to do what europe is doing in launching its own GPS satellite and weather probes.
That's probably as far as they would go.

Quote:
A military space in force is pretty pointless atm, there is no viable gain from having a military force in space atm. The only viable tactical option is a wepaons defense platform, like 'Star Wars' to shot down ICBM's. However the deployment of these may lead to a deployment of counter weopans and lead to unmaned vehicles fighting space, thats the closest thing to space warfare i can see.
Well military weaponry usually results in if I recall correctly in newer technologies to use for other purposes as well. When humans head into space, "space fleets" are pretty much part of the package. But now?
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Old 2006-06-13, 19:46   Link #52
Sakaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
Don't you dare. Don't you FUCKING DARE try to hijack history and disrespect the memories and accomplishments of the Allied forces in Europe. Do you think the US were alone in storming the beaches of Normandy? This is so incredibly typical of an ignorant person whose only studies of the second world war consists of watching "Saving Private Ryan". Get a loan, go to college and get yourself a clue, thanks.
Well. it's true. The European Allies could not have beaten the Germans by themselves, the Americans couldn't have beaten them by themselves either.

Without the large supply of arms and materials from America, starting with the lend-lease act, and throughout the war was very instrumental. Such as how the Sherman tanks beat back the Panzers, simply by having overwhelming numbers. The European allies couldn't have came up with that amount of tanks by themselves. Besides the Americans took the toughest beaches on D-day.
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Old 2006-06-13, 20:09   Link #53
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanthraX^
Howvere when we have assets, colonies on the moon and eventually (hopefully) other planets countries may begin to deploy a space force. However if that happens i would hope that Earth is united much like Star Trek.
The only reason for that is because a third world war happened (which I believe reduced the population of Earth significantly) and Earth had to deal with other alien cultures. Without factors like these or similar to them I don't see the Earth being more united than it already is. Each nation would want to think of what's best for itself first. And what's best may not be the same for everybody in the respective government's view.
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Old 2006-06-13, 20:49   Link #54
ekirts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurz
We need a Hegemony... A just one at that, since we odviously cant play nice.
Also to End this stupid Sovereignty BS.

Frankly... I dont like the fact Japan is considering putting weapons and their military into space...
Its not that I dont trust the country, its fact it'll make other countries express their right to put a military in space. Then I can see them extending the bounderies from Airspace into Space itself.

It could well be another arms race.

One thing can be had from this... is the finance of new technology.
Which is nice, though I wish it could be use for a more peaceful purpose.

If we going to have a military it better be one military, like an International Military.
like the UN or like from FMP Mithril ?lol

Quote:
he atomic attacks on Japan saved more lives than it took. Japan by this time had lost over a million people. A land invasion of Japan would've cost around 1mil American lives and countless more Japanese lives due to their no surrender policy. Also Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both high industrial plces for the Japanese military. Thus making those two cities military targets.

Also if the Japanese had the ability to reach the West Coast of the US do you really think they wouldn't have bombed the cities. The Japanese had showed no sign of caring about civilians for example like what they did in China.
well other countries did the same thing like the US its not only japan every country has dont something that they arent proud of

i think i heard that US dropped the nuke bomb to test it and see what the effects are and think also heard that they didnt bomb
hiroshima and nagasaki just so they can check the strength of the bomb
and was gonna drop another one somewhere

and i dont think you would think that it was necessary after seeing the pictures and stuff of after the bombing (im not gonna describe it coz its sick)
and knowing people affected by radiation and their son or daughter born with no arms or legs...

a lot of the time i think US is a really screwed up country
eg saying that what was that country's name? cant have the nuke tech
but allowing other country "forgot name also"

i just hope the US and china and any country with nukes doesnt send their military to space and also their nukes

anyway if we keep saying bad stuff about a country it'll be like korea and china bringing up bad stuff that japan did during the war and stuff and not bringing up good things and make ppl in the country hate japan
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Old 2006-06-13, 21:19   Link #55
Komataguri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
I hope that's not based just on the Japanese being home to anime.

Wow.

I live in a family full of racist rednecks.

I thought I've heard the most stupid and ignorant comments a man could make.


But I'll be damned if that right there dosn't take the cake.


Yes, omg, I want Japan 2 survive cuz eye cannut life wifout da anymayz!
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Old 2006-06-13, 23:03   Link #56
Zechs Merquies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
Don't you dare. Don't you FUCKING DARE try to hijack history and disrespect the memories and accomplishments of the Allied forces in Europe. Do you think the US were alone in storming the beaches of Normandy? This is so incredibly typical of an ignorant person whose only studies of the second world war consists of watching "Saving Private Ryan". Get a loan, go to college and get yourself a clue, thanks.
Im not saying it was only the US only that won the war, without the US europe would have fallen either to germany or russia. We needed the allied forces and they needed us. I have never saw saving private ryan so you can just take the wannabe smartass remark and can it my ungrateful friend.

Haha thats so typical of someone who is to high about himself, that being you of course, so many assumptions from just one post. You think you have figured out everything about me, seriously don't make me laugh kid. You think just because I support what we did to japan that I am blind to our foreign policies, im well aware of them so you should learn to control your tounge before you make such bold assumptions.

Anh_Minh wars are not pretty, i firmly belive you do what must be done in order to win, if you must wipe out a city to acheve your goal then wipe it out. If you must use chemical weapons to strike fear into the enemy then you do it. Is it unfortunate that civillians were attacked with chem weapons yes, but in vietnam the north would dress as civillians and attack our solders, we couldnt trust them, it had to be done to save our troops lives.
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Old 2006-06-13, 23:35   Link #57
Demongod86
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Rules of War IMHO is the biggest oxymoron there is...if civilians have to be killed, so be it. The Viet Cong never actually gave up on the war, and the US eventually pulled out of vietnam, and let S. Vietnam fall, and so the entire nation became communist. Well, I hope the north vietnamese are happy with their government, along with the biological problems and landmines still there. It wouldn't have happened if they gave up peacefully. So I think they're still getting some just desserts. If you can't win, at least slaughter as many as you can so it's a pyrrhic (sp?) victory at best.

As for the a-bombs...it doesn't sit well with me that so many civilians were killed...couldn't the abombs have been dropped somewhere to demonstrate that power, rather than straight on the cities?

As for Japan's military in space...I don't like China at all. Communist government, cheap labor, huge population, growing economy predicted to overtake the US's? I don't like it, and I'd feel a lot safer if such a huge brute force nation was kept in check by a bustling Japanese military. And yes, I've heard the counterarguments...ZOMFG, LOOK AT WW2! JAPAN WAS TEH EVILZORZ! Well, I say get over it. No use crying over spilled milk. I don't hate germans because of the nazis, nor do I hate Italians either, even thoguh they too were axis.

Japanese people are some of the nicest people I know. Every nation has its badniks. I'd certainly feel a lot safer if Japanese satellites were keeping the other Asian bloc nations in check (especially China). As for the technical know-how, the Japanese are on the cutting edge of technology...I'd think they'd have the know-how though not the funding.

As for anime, it's a part of life, almost as much as oxygen and food are.
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Old 2006-06-13, 23:37   Link #58
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^^^^^^If you are an honorable person no. It may be a terrible thing but hey just because life sucks doesn't mean you should help in that cause. Also Vietnam and China aren't communist, they are sociailists. (barely) Atleast not as defined by how I define communism.
Demongod what you said about Japanese people being some of the nicest people you know and every nation having its badniks reminds me of a perfect quote for that. (Can be applied to alot of things actaully.)

It was said by the famous argentinian author Jacobo Timerman, most likely from his jail cell. "It is very easy to hate the Nazi, a guardian in the Gulags. But the real danger is not them. It is decent people who compromise with evil."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakaki
Well. it's true. The European Allies could not have beaten the Germans by themselves, the Americans couldn't have beaten them by themselves either.

Without the large supply of arms and materials from America, starting with the lend-lease act, and throughout the war was very instrumental. Such as how the Sherman tanks beat back the Panzers, simply by having overwhelming numbers. The European allies couldn't have came up with that amount of tanks by themselves. Besides the Americans took the toughest beaches on D-day.
I said it before and I will say it again. Excluding the US's direct military contributions the Soviet Union could have won the European war on their own. The Russian tanks were not only mass produced but had quality unlike our Sherman. (On that list of worst tanks given to US soldiers. Needing 4 Sherman tanks to take on a Tiger/Panther and having a good chance of losing 3 is bad.)

Monstert your post reminds me of something I heard awhile ago. I forgot what was the source. Basically it said that if the world was ever invaded by aliens contrary to what the movies show us the Earth would not work together. All the Earth's militaries would be too busy trying to one up each other in an attempt to claim that they defeated the aliens.

Ekirts more like the Command and Conquer Global Defense Initiative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zechs
Anh_Minh wars are not pretty, i firmly belive you do what must be done in order to win, if you must wipe out a city to acheve your goal then wipe it out. If you must use chemical weapons to strike fear into the enemy then you do it. Is it unfortunate that civillians were attacked with chem weapons yes, but in vietnam the north would dress as civillians and attack our solders, we couldnt trust them, it had to be done to save our troops lives.
That is when you know you are on the wrong side of the war. If the people you are trying to protect are fighting you you are on the wrong side of a war. You are especailly on the wrong side of a war if you realize that (using Vietnam as an example) if you lived in the South you would have been a VC.
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Old 2006-06-14, 00:25   Link #59
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komataguri
Wow.

I live in a family full of racist rednecks.

I thought I've heard the most stupid and ignorant comments a man could make.


But I'll be damned if that right there dosn't take the cake.


Yes, omg, I want Japan 2 survive cuz eye cannut life wifout da anymayz!
That was nothing more than just a clarification. I know people who voted for Arnold mainly because he was "the Terminator" I've seen people do things for even more ridiculous reasons. Besides, why would Japan make you feel better? You mind explaining more than just a gut feeling? That was the question kid.

If that doesn't clear it then I apologize for the blunt remark then but please give me a detailed explanation if you will.

Quote:
And yes, I've heard the counterarguments...ZOMFG, LOOK AT WW2! JAPAN WAS TEH EVILZORZ!
Well try telling that to the Asian countries that suffered under them. In fact, compare Germany and France's relationship to China/other Asian and Japan's relationship.


Quote:
I don't like China at all. Communist government, cheap labor, huge population, growing economy predicted to overtake the US's?
I wouldn't call China a coummunist government, I'm not even sure if it even falls into that category. But is that the reason why you hate China? Just because they have the largest population with an economy that could overtake the US? Not in GDP of course, that could never happen. If anything, China and India are returning to their statuses they once were back then centuries ago where they had strong powers and economies that supplied tons of finances in the world if I recall correctly.
America will keep check with China, both are captialist, they trade tons of stuff with each other. What would happen if one or the other country suffered? One goes down, they take the other with him.

Last edited by SoldierOfDarkness; 2006-06-14 at 00:48.
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Old 2006-06-14, 00:35   Link #60
Nameless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freelancer3018
The lack of a homeland security from previous US leaders is what led to 9/11. With this "Homeland Security bullshit" we have stopped several terrorists attacks. The USA has a right to protect itself from enemies all around the globe. If it takes Orbital Weapons Systems to insure that no country will kill innocent Americans then I am all for building them. To insist that the US needs to be "checked" on by other countries is absured. The USA has never used WMDs recklessly. While several other countries have even used them on their own people (i.e Iraq) or threatened to wipe other countries off the globe (i.e Iran).

Wow, you don't know anything, sorry.

If you think terrorists actually commit 9/11, you need to move out of Alabama and stop driving around with the confederate flag on your truck.

Let me tell you somethin' bout what be goin' awn round these parts, sir.

I'll give you an example my marine brother in law told me himself. There was an interview where a news crew was interviewing an Iranian soldier. What he was REALLY saying in Iranian was "We are just hoping for peace. We are hoping that the Americans will not try to govern our country." etc etc.

What the United States interpreted it as, with subtitles was "We hate the Americans and we will do whatever it takes to stop them from entering our country".

Iranians can't even READ English and they're holding English written banners saying "We Love America for getting rid of Saddam". HOw do they even know what they're saying? For all they know, the US soldiers could've handed them the banner, given them 20 bucks and said "Hold this out and cheer".
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