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Old 2006-06-17, 00:14   Link #61
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
This is what i don't get VCV, you trust everything Lacus says and barely question her motives and actions, yet we should dispell Rau's words?? Gundam SEED was a pretty good series and i think as a literary effect they want Kira to be known as the Ultimate Kicka$$inator (or Coordinator if you will ^^)...It isn't like Rau just throws that out there on a whim...and based on GSD he was more right than right can be...people can help themselves sleep at night saying Athrun is on Kira's level (or beyond), but it has been shown that Athrun is to emo and flakey to be as good as Kira and that's just the truth...I mean I definatley don't respect what they did to either Athrun or Kira in GSD, but the truth based on that is Athrun doesn't have the mindset to block-out all other distractions and fight at his optimum and Kira does and that is a huge factor when it comes to Mobile Suit Combat...
And you think Kira wasn't emo or flakey?

If Kira was so much genetically superior to Athrun as you claimed, why isn't he superior to Athrun from the start? Kira can be as emo as Shinji if the situation calls for it.
In GSD, Kira had Lacus to watch his back. While Cagalli is too knee-deep in problems of her own to support Athrun. That's the difference.

As for the completely off-topic comment about trusting Lacus...

Lacus is a backstabber. She is a politician who, by definition, is a liar. People who try to kill her, dies. If I am Lacus' opponent/enemy, I won't trust her to do my taxes.
But just like the Australian Prime minister, wholm I voted for, I trust her to get things done when she is on the same political side. She would have to kill a few people and blackmail a few others, but that's fine by me.

I've been saying this for a few months now, so why did you just made a straw-man argument that Lacus can't be trusted?
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Old 2006-06-17, 01:52   Link #62
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
And you think Kira wasn't emo or flakey?
Yes he was, but not in GSD (As early said by me)...he has (for lack of a better word) "ascended" past that...I'm not saying I'm pleased with Kira's transformation into an automaton, but alas he has and doesn't get flustered like Athrun does on the battlefield for the most part anymore...

Quote:
If Kira was so much genetically superior to Athrun as you claimed, why isn't he superior to Athrun from the start? Kira can be as emo as Shinji if the situation calls for it.
Well in all honesty Athrun is heavily trained and has the scores and reputation of an "ACE", Kira jumped into STRIKE totally oblivious to the extensive training Athrun had recieved and in a matter of minutes, hours, then days even he already acquired the apt to engage in 4 vs 1 battles that included 1 v 1 with Athrun (Who shows a harbinger of things to come in his lack of decisiveness--not that I agree he should have wanted to fragged Kira, just a template for understanding his character)...So i would say his genetic enhancements (which weren't clear at that point in the series) were above Athrun's...As for "superiority, don't pretend as if I used that word or description...But since you brought it up, in GSD it would seem to me Kira is superior to all the other pilots (Comebacks like, "but Athrun was confused", so on and so forth that even I have used when taking different stances shows his seperation from Kira in-terms of this debate)...Now I don't particularily like how they make Athrun look like the fool all the time compared to Kira, but it is a determining factor in their MS battles...

Quote:
In GSD, Kira had Lacus to watch his back. While Cagalli is too knee-deep in problems of her own to support Athrun. That's the difference.
You're probably right to some degree, although Lacus watching his back equates to the "invisible man" watching for pedestrians who might get hit by a car and pushing them outta the way...You see it, but you don't believe it and hell if you can prove it...

Quote:
As for the completely off-topic comment about trusting Lacus...

Lacus is a backstabber. She is a politician who, by definition, is a liar. People who try to kill her, dies. If I am Lacus' opponent/enemy, I won't trust her to do my taxes.
But just like the Australian Prime minister, wholm I voted for, I trust her to get things done when she is on the same political side. She would have to kill a few people and blackmail a few others, but that's fine by me.

I've been saying this for a few months now, so why did you just made a straw-man argument that Lacus can't be trusted?
No it was on-topic..You asked how people can trust the words of a lunatic in Rau, I'm simply asking the same of a character I feel is even more ignorant and lacking more validity than Rau ever could...I don't buy your argument or conclusions on Lacus and i never will...Give me proof that she is what you just described her to be an we can break bread for sure....I'm not trying to mislead people in a rhetorical sense (straw-kun)...I'm simply saying Rau has validity to back up his thoughts on Kira (even if they are a bit insane), however Lacus does not have any validity in a multitude of circumstances thus rendering her completley illegitimate...unequivacally IMO...

I just brought it up because I'd like to think someone would use the same factors when judging Rau's validity when determining hers is all...For the record I'm not trying to push your buttons on this...This doesn't have to get out of bounds...
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2006-06-17 at 02:10.
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Old 2006-06-17, 02:21   Link #63
SNT1
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Kira has improved through early GSD quite fast, but since he got in Freedom, his skill increase have, erm... stalled. Its rather valid to say that since most would agree than any major MS/pilot that he faced in GS were much better than in GSD, and he uses the same moves over and over again. (Okay, so he lost to Shinn, who was better than him at the time). As for training, Athrun was trained to be a soldier, meaning everything else in the battlefield other than MS piloting, Athrun should be better at. (see Kira + handgun in GS and GSD). If Athrun hadn't blown up his Justice and stayed in Orb, he would have been kicking ass alongside Kira.
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Old 2006-06-17, 02:54   Link #64
Anh_Minh
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Rau himself never claimed Kira was meant to be a supersoldier. He's a prototype for a new technology aiming to make people... maybe not even faster, stronger, smarter per se, but more reliably faster, stronger, smarter. And even if it was meant to make people into a kind of Coordinator's Coordinator - what of it?

Kira was probably loaded like a mule with every favorable gene complex his dad could put his hands on, but that's as far as it went. He was interested in the science, not some kind of jingoist dream where an army of Ultimate Coordinators would take over the world.

Rau's point, which may have been valid, was that once the tech had matured a bit, the military would use it to manufacture its own supersoldiers.

Also, how did Lacus enter the conversation? WD, are you trying to launch an "every time Wingdarkness doesn't know what to say and tries to change the subject by bashing Lacus, take a shot" game?

Also, you probably meant "dismiss", not "dispel".
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Old 2006-06-17, 03:07   Link #65
tritoch
 
 
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If you think about the scene where Gil gave Athrun Savior, the lines and "intentions" where somewhat similar to how Lacus gave Kira Freedom. And yes, Gil was the omniscient throughout GSD. If you could say who was the perfect person in GSD, I'd say it was Gil. Such a cool operator to make both Plants and Earth be swayed by his sweet tongue.

Athrun was confused and he thought that by siding with the politically correct would put him in the "good" side. Again the same events happened to Kira in early Seed. Zaft was the aggressor at that time and now in GSD the roles reverses and Athrun jumped on the bandwagon.

Throughout GSD, Kira only acknowledges one fact: Gil can't be trusted since he tried eliminate both him and Lacus. And Kira made it his creed. Everything else is in the backburner. If Kira/Lacus wasn't targeted for assassination, they wouldn't have shown any hostility towards Gil. Kira would have had launched to kidnap Cagalli and side with Gil since Gil at that time was doing what was politically correct.

As to how much a suit 2 years older perform is a testament to Kira's abilities. There's no doub that he is a good pilot. But ofcourse everyone has flaws and Shinn took advantage of Kira's flaw. I think I had a question about how Kira relies on his suit and I still believe in my opinion that Kira is weaker without his GodSuit.

On an end note, No one is a main character or rather everyone was given ample amount of character development including Kira who fought only with that simple creed and later that creed turn out to be true. Athrun ofcourse gets out of confusion territory at the moment and Shinn opened his eyes to the truth. Yehey, no more "Shinn didn't get what he deserves/proper ending" crap like that. Shinn got what he deserves for acting like a ...... throughout GSD btw.

No offense to Shinn fanboys nor to Kira fanboys nor to Athrun fanboys nor to Gil fanboys nor to Lacus fanboys.

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Old 2006-06-17, 03:17   Link #66
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Also, how did Lacus enter the conversation? WD, are you trying to launch an "every time Wingdarkness doesn't know what to say and tries to change the subject by bashing Lacus, take a shot" game?

Yeah that's exactly what I intended to do ...That was my prime objective...It has nothing to do with the fact that me and VCV have had a running commentary on this subject for months and months...So sometimes when I hear him discredit or harshley criticize a character I think back to his Lacus argument instinctively....And although I did mispell "dispel" by adding an extra "l" it was exactly what I meant (which is to rid ones mind of what Rau said)...As for the rest I don't remember asking for your arm-chair psychiatric input, I had plenty to say that stayed on-topic...Would you like to bravely quote or challenge any of it?? If not I believe you know what you can do for me ...
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Old 2006-06-17, 04:36   Link #67
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Yeah that's exactly what I intended to do ...That was my prime objective...It has nothing to do with the fact that me and VCV have had a running commentary on this subject for months and months...So sometimes when I hear him discredit or harshley criticize a character I think back to his Lacus argument instinctively....
Then I advise you to change your instincts. Especially since I don't remember VCV ever going "Lacus said so! So it must be true!".

Quote:
And although I did mispell "dispel" by adding an extra "l" it was exactly what I meant (which is to rid ones mind of what Rau said)...
Nevertheless, I do not think it is meant to be used that way - not unless you go from the assumption that Rau's words somehow embedded themselves into one's mind to become belief. Oh, wait, my bad. In your case, "dispel" might be correct.


Quote:
As for the rest I don't remember asking for your arm-chair psychiatric input,
And I hadn't given it... until this post.

Quote:
I had plenty to say that stayed on-topic...Would you like to bravely quote or challenge any of it?? If not I believe you know what you can do for me ...
What, that Kira's emotional stability was part of his abilities and made him better suited to being a MS pilot than Athrun? VCV already answered that: it's false. In GS, he was as emotionally unstable as any - didn't he freeze a couple of times when Flay made an appearance on the battlefield? Circumstances made GSD a rougher ride for Athrun than for Kira, and it affected their abilities accordingly.

Was Kira able to compensate for his lack of training with better genes? I'd put it down to the Law of Anime that if you put a random guy into a giant mech, he'll shortly become an ace pilot.

Other factor: MS are a relatively new tech. Even the most experienced veteran's only piloted them for a few years. So the wealth of experience that instructors are able to impart to trainees isn't as great as what it could be.


And even if Kira has superior genes - again, what of it?
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Old 2006-06-17, 05:29   Link #68
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Then I advise you to change your instincts. Especially since I don't remember VCV ever going "Lacus said so! So it must be true!".
Thanks for the advise, but unless you jump into this UFC octagon with VCV written on your chest I don't see how it's any of your concearn...You don't know what we discussed so please restrain yourself...


Quote:
Nevertheless, I do not think it is meant to be used that way - not unless you go from the assumption that Rau's words somehow embedded themselves into one's mind to become belief. Oh, wait, my bad. In your case, "dispel" might be correct.
All that is required is someone believeing in what Rau said about Kira being the Ult. Coordie for them to have it dispelled, but I digress no more English homework I had enuff of that getting my journalism degree (and yes i still missspelll $hit from time to time, what of it?? So does Lois Lane...I know I have what it takes for an animesuki pulitzer, but I tend to relax too much^^)...



Quote:
What, that Kira's emotional stability was part of his abilities and made him better suited to being a MS pilot than Athrun? VCV already answered that: it's false. In GS, he was as emotionally unstable as any - didn't he freeze a couple of times when Flay made an appearance on the battlefield? Circumstances made GSD a rougher ride for Athrun than for Kira, and it affected their abilities accordingly.
Could you perhaps quote the phrases that made you think this response is worthy of what I was pointing out?? (Ya know since VCV so clearly answered whatever it is you think I said)

Quote:
Was Kira able to compensate for his lack of training with better genes? I'd put it down to the Law of Anime that if you put a random guy into a giant mech, he'll shortly become an ace pilot.
Then why are we even discussing anything...let's just log-off and fly kites in a grassy-meadow since the "law of anime" consumes us so much...I think this was in one of those blu-squares on the game show Jeopardy...

It said: "Explains anything regarding animated works in a simple way while totally deflecting the points of your opponent..."

wingdarkness: "What is 'the law of anime' Alex..."

Quote:
Other factor: MS are a relatively new tech. Even the most experienced veteran's only piloted them for a few years. So the wealth of experience that instructors are able to impart to trainees isn't as great as what it could be.
Perhaps that's true, but that doesn't change the fact Athrun was specifically trained in this profession for years where he is apparently top of his class...I guess you wanna just sweep that under the rug too??


Quote:
And even if Kira has superior genes - again, what of it?
I don't know, perhaps an exchange of ideas that evolved from the thread-starters topic...I don't keep the same tabs on myself as you keep on me...I just like to have discussions and challenge members on their thoughts and conclusions (VCV is fairly smart and I enjoy having discussions with him and you too when your not pestering me)...I would hope he feels the same, but that's primarily what I enjoy about being a member here...
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Old 2006-06-17, 06:28   Link #69
Anh_Minh
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Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2006-06-17 at 12:50.
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Old 2006-06-17, 11:06   Link #70
Last_Hope
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For the love of God. Please use spoiler tags for those loooooooong-ass posts...
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Old 2006-06-17, 12:23   Link #71
tritoch
 
 
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Old 2006-06-17, 16:15   Link #72
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Spoiler:
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Was Kira meant to be a soldier? Were his genetics tuned to make him Captain Mendel Colony?

That's what we were discussing. Now, do you have something worthwhile to say, and can you take disagreement without going off in a sulk?
I don't think Kira was meant to be anything but the best genetic Coordinator ever produced and I don't think Dr. Hibiki's goal was to make super-soldiers with his super-sperm but I do think his inheireted abilities that had yet to be realised at the time was a factor in him getting in a Gundam and Pwning other Coordies who seemingly should have had an adavanatge over him based on training instead of visa versa (which is where my debate spawned from)...but you didn't see that did you?? Debates evolve and I don't necessarily follow any imaginary guidline for posting my thoughts, kapeeeesh....
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Old 2006-06-18, 04:12   Link #73
Anh_Minh
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Old 2006-06-18, 04:16   Link #74
tritoch
 
 
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Wasn't all the Coordinators made genetically? Azrael wanted to be one but his mom slapped him silly
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Old 2006-06-18, 06:29   Link #75
NeonZ
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I've just watched the special edition... They took out Rey's and Neo's NT flashes, though Neo saw Rey in his mind while fighting against him.

They also took out Kira's comment about the people crying during Minerva's battle against the EA forces in Orb. Hm... I really hope that means they'll be dropping the whole NT thing, considering how it doesn't go anywhere.
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Old 2006-06-18, 16:01   Link #76
fizzmaister
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Guys, Kira was not a noob when he first got into strike. He was an engineering student at an engineering university. He was working on (surprise surprise) the software for that thing human exoskeleton that you see Tolle (or maybe someone else I don't remember) in. I wouldn't be surprised if Kira personally tested it several times as well.

I would compare it to be more like the creator of the Gamecube and an experience x-box player were to play head to head (rather than trained person vs. n00b). The gamecube creator would at first have a problem with the control system and would rework to what he was experienced with. Then he would proceed to play on his skill level. Unlike Amuro and lots of main characters that just jump into an MS and are skilled, Kira had experiece in the operation of humanoid machines.
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Old 2006-06-18, 22:46   Link #77
SNT1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonZ
I've just watched the special edition... They took out Rey's and Neo's NT flashes, though Neo saw Rey in his mind while fighting against him.

They also took out Kira's comment about the people crying during Minerva's battle against the EA forces in Orb. Hm... I really hope that means they'll be dropping the whole NT thing, considering how it doesn't go anywhere.
oooh, I overlooked this. Well, we gonna have to wait till the last SE for this to especially hold true then
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Old 2006-06-19, 05:04   Link #78
tetsuo69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonZ
I've just watched the special edition... They took out Rey's and Neo's NT flashes, though Neo saw Rey in his mind while fighting against him.

They also took out Kira's comment about the people crying during Minerva's battle against the EA forces in Orb. Hm... I really hope that means they'll be dropping the whole NT thing, considering how it doesn't go anywhere.
huh you sure? cause i just saw the Sub version of the SE that its shorter than the TV SE and the flashes are there
heck rey even says Neo isnt an ordinary person to shinn
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Old 2006-06-19, 05:26   Link #79
NeonZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo69
huh you sure? cause i just saw the Sub version of the SE that its shorter than the TV SE and the flashes are there
heck rey even says Neo isnt an ordinary person to shinn
My mistake... They only cut Neo's flash (though they added a image of Rey in his mind), Rey's flash is still there. I don't know how I missed that.
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Old 2006-06-19, 05:44   Link #80
tetsuo69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonZ
My mistake... They only cut Neo's flash (though they added a image of Rey in his mind), Rey's flash is still there. I don't know how I missed that.
what they did left out was the beach scene where kira seem to be sensing minerva crew but then again they left many things out like athrun shooting skill thing
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