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Old 2006-08-04, 10:39   Link #101
grandmaster192
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The way I see it is the Destiny and Legend are both good units. The good 2nd generation units. But when you start to compar them with SF and IJ they look like crap. IJ and SF are to powerful. When Kira got his SF all his great skill was just gone. All that cool stuff he did with the Freedom he didn't do anymore. The IJ made Athrun look like a super elite pilot it was so powerful.
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Old 2006-08-04, 13:30   Link #102
Skyfall
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Not to mention that Athrun actually is a super elite pilot as far as CE is concerned
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Old 2006-08-04, 14:53   Link #103
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Not to mention that Athrun actually is a super elite pilot as far as CE is concerned
He's no better then Yzak or Rey IMO.
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Old 2006-08-04, 15:10   Link #104
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
He's no better then Yzak or Rey IMO.
That is if we ignore the fact that Athrun was the top of his class with Yzak as second?


And Rey ? only info on Rey we have is that it got pwned by SF, and he is clearly worse than Rau, so i dont know where you got that. Next thing you will be saying that he is like Luna ?

Athruns either sharing the first spot with Kira or is sitting right on his tail - that is hardly debatable imo.
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Old 2006-08-04, 16:21   Link #105
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
That is if we ignore the fact that Athrun was the top of his class with Yzak as second?


And Rey ? only info on Rey we have is that it got pwned by SF, and he is clearly worse than Rau, so i dont know where you got that. Next thing you will be saying that he is like Luna ?

Athruns either sharing the first spot with Kira or is sitting right on his tail - that is hardly debatable imo.
Athrun just isn't that great of a pilot to me. He's down there with Yzak, Rey, ect...IMO The way I see it is Shinn, Kira and Rau are the best pilots. I respect your opinions though.....Mabey you can recomend me a episode that shows why you think Athrun is sutch a great pilot.
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Old 2006-08-04, 16:31   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
Athrun just isn't that great of a pilot to me. He's down there with Yzak, Rey, ect...IMO The way I see it is Shinn, Kira and Rau are the best pilots. I respect your opinions though.....Mabey you can recomend me a episode that shows why you think Athrun is sutch a great pilot.
I respect your opinion also but I believe like some other's that Athrun is on par with Shinn and Kira. And though I like Yzak he is better than him. I would have to check back on episodes that highlight his glory but there are some good ones. I think Athrun isn't always percieved as great because for a majority of the series he is confused and doesn't know what to fight for. However when he has the right cause and is properly motivated he is a serious force to be reckoned with. I think that Athrun may be superior to Shinn and he did defeat him in the final battle reguardless of the circumstances. Kira is the best we all know that but I think Athrun comes in second but that is just my opinion. Well anyway at least he was an interesting character to watch with his internal and external struggles and development on what he should be fighting for and what is right. Yes I am a fan of Athrun so sue me
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Old 2006-08-04, 16:33   Link #107
Skyfall
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Il just copy an answer from my other post in the VS thread

You think he is not as good as Kira? Who was the one pilot who beat Kira when both pilots were giving it their fullest ? Hm...could it be... Athrun?

While Athrun / Kira is debatable, Shinn is simply out of the question.

Heavily injured Athrun (read - moves around hanging on to Meyrin) in SEED mode kicks Shinn's arse in SEED mode. (Cuts off Destiny's arm)

Non SEED
uninjured Athrun >SEED Shinn in battle of Messiah.(Destroys Shinns ASS sword)

SEED uninjured Athrun vs SEED Shinn - if you search the moon you might find what is left of Destiny there, and consider it took Athrun a grand total of 5 seconds to turn Destiny in to a pile of rubble once he decided to do so.

nothing to debate here, is it. Not to meantion Shinn was drooling all over the place over Athrun's and Yzaks performance in ZAKUs against druggies at Junius 7 battle.


Athrun is MILES better than Shinn, Only time he lost against Shinn was when he was escaping in a GOUF and Shinn was in Destiny. what a surprise. And still he managed to hold out for a good while, destroying Shinn's rifle in the proces. And i doubt that having Meyrin there in the one man cockpit helps to pilot

And mind you - Athrun in SEED mode has never been defeated by anyone


Heck, id say Yzak is more on Shinn's level
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Old 2006-08-04, 18:56   Link #108
AlphaDragoon
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And yet, Fukuda has gone ON RECORD stating the official "ranking" between the three is Kira > Shinn > Athrun.

Shinn would probably have wrecked shop on Athrun/IJ had he not gotten shafted by the storyline. Now Kira...he would've punked Rey out regardless. And probably Shinn too, had it come to that.
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Old 2006-08-04, 21:43   Link #109
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon
And yet, Fukuda has gone ON RECORD stating the official "ranking" between the three is Kira > Shinn > Athrun.

Shinn would probably have wrecked shop on Athrun/IJ had he not gotten shafted by the storyline. Now Kira...he would've punked Rey out regardless. And probably Shinn too, had it come to that.
I thought Fukuda said it was Shinn>Kira>Athrun. Do you have a link?? Oh well.
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Old 2006-08-04, 22:24   Link #110
yellowkaiq
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The Legend was just the providence colored black, with the dragoon system split in half. No creativity at all.
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Old 2006-08-04, 22:55   Link #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowkaiq
The Legend was just the providence colored black, with the dragoon system split in half. No creativity at all.
You can say that to SF and IF as well then, they've only changed like 10% of their looks and 20% of their functions.
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Last edited by C.A.; 2006-08-04 at 23:16.
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Old 2006-08-04, 23:06   Link #112
monster
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Well I think all three suits gained a performance boost compared to their predecessors at the very least. And seriously that's all you really need given decent designs in the first place. Forget originality, if something works then keep it and just improve whatever is needed and take away things that are unnecessary.

Of course, having said that, Legend could've been better. It's just not necessary, Legend is already pretty good at its intended role in battle.
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Old 2006-08-05, 03:40   Link #113
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon
And yet, Fukuda has gone ON RECORD stating the official "ranking" between the three is Kira > Shinn > Athrun.
Well that goes against anything that is seen in the anime. I assume Fukuda was on crack again. Athrun without SEED > Shinn with seed, Athrun beat Shinn both times they fought in equal quality MS, so i dont see how one can come to assume that Shinn > Athrun. Ulness you count losing as an statistic, then he clearly beats Athrun
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Old 2006-08-05, 05:03   Link #114
M_Flores
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At the end of the day, winning is winning.
One could say Shinn is better than Athrun at this and that, but bottom line is, winning is winning. Ric Flair was a 16 time world champion, sure he's the dirtiest player in the game, but the fact still remains, he's 16 time world champ nonetheless. Wrestling is fake, but it still remains, Ric Flair is still 16 time world champ.

Fukuda could say all he wants how much better Shinn could be 10x more than Athrun, but at the end of the day, he still got bid, owned and sold by Athrun, twice.
Ppl can make the excuse that Justice was superior suit to Destiny, etc. etc., but it still remains, Athrun won.
Its like saying a person in a Destroy Vs a person on foot - its an unfair match, but even so, the person with a Destroy still wins.

Shinn got nerfed? Maybe so, but Athrun didn't, and that's not his problem. I'm not a Shinn nor Athrun fan, I like em equally, but after seeing Shinn get sushied like he did, you can't make any excuses. So Shinn got nerfed, that's the fan's problem and if they wanna make that excuse, go ahead, but he still lost.
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Old 2006-08-05, 05:46   Link #115
srb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
But when you start to compar them with SF and IJ they look like crap.
No, they don't.

They all run on the same energy source, but Destiny is the only one that's even close to draining the available energy before it needs time to recharge. Destiny is a very powerful and very demanding suit, probably much more demanding to use than SF is. Shinn never uses its full potential.
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:01   Link #116
Skyfall
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Actually i really doubt Destiny's potential. It lacks something, and the fact that it can drain its reactor without any particular reason is not helping It lacks weaponry to utilize its speed imo.

It might be faster than Freedom and Justice, bu what for ? It lacks tools to utilize its speed.

Freedom is the beam spamming monster, It can spam truckloads of beams and has DRAGOONS. It has craploads of ranged weapons that come in handy in combat against equal suits.

Justice is a melee monster, it has melee written all over it. Going in to melee with it is not something you want to do, and is a clear advantage against equal suits.

Destiny has... a little more speed ? Not really that useful given all it has for range are two rifles, and all it has for melee is the ASS sword and palm canons. Its slight speed advantage doesnt justify the complete lack of effective weaponry against equal suits. It is supposed all-round suit, but as it stands now Freedom fills that role better.

Destiny's ranged options are almost non existant, just like Justice, but at least Justice has something in turn - its great melee. What does speed alone give you if you lack the weaponry to effectively fight against equal oponents ?
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:11   Link #117
C.A.
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IF actually has 3 primary ranged weapons: Beam rifle, Fatum-01's Hyper Fortis Beam cannons, Shining Edge beam boomerang.

You can include the Grapple Stinger, head machine guns and chest CIWS.

Justice is actually more all-rounded than Destiny is, plus much more melee.
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:17   Link #118
M_Flores
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Actually i really doubt Destiny's potential. It lacks something, and the fact that it can drain its reactor without any particular reason is not helping It lacks weaponry to utilize its speed imo.

It might be faster than Freedom and Justice, bu what for ? It lacks tools to utilize its speed.

Freedom is the beam spamming monster, It can spam truckloads of beams and has DRAGOONS. It has craploads of ranged weapons that come in handy in combat against equal suits.

Justice is a melee monster, it has melee written all over it. Going in to melee with it is not something you want to do, and is a clear advantage against equal suits.

Destiny has... a little more speed ? Not really that useful given all it has for range are two rifles, and all it has for melee is the ASS sword and palm canons. Its slight speed advantage doesnt justify the complete lack of effective weaponry against equal suits. It is supposed all-round suit, but as it stands now Freedom fills that role better.

Destiny's ranged options are almost non existant, just like Justice, but at least Justice has something in turn - its great melee. What does speed alone give you if you lack the weaponry to effectively fight against equal oponents ?

Actually, ∞ Justice isn't too bad at long range. It's got three beam spammers (beam rifle, two fortis cannons) as opposed to Destiny's beam rifle and cannon.
I'd say ∞ Justice is closer to being an all rounder suit than Strike Freedom, since all it has for melee are two beam sabers, that's it. (chest cannon is not melee. close range maybe, but not melee. it's stilla projectile/shooting weapon)
Although ∞ Justice is focused on melee, it has a beam rifle, fortis cannons, as well as maybe the backpack for long range, boomerangs and grapple sting for mid range. SF has two beam sabers for melee, the rest are beam spamming weapons.

Which is why Legend is so disappointing. It only has the beam sabers for melee, and the rest is all beam spammers too, which clearly SF beats it in that department. Legend has NO clear advantage of any of the two (or three, if you may count Destiny) suits. You might give it's ability of the beam spikers to go through shields, but if that really worked, then it would've been used.

Destiny and Legend are cool, but no way in any match against SF and ∞J whatsoever.

Perhaps if Legend had 16-18 dragoons, and if Destiny had palm cannons that could be used for long range 100X Big Bang Kamehameha and the real wings of light that could actually cut and block stuff, then it might be able to dance with SF and ∞J for a little while longer...
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:25   Link #119
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
Destiny is the only one that's even close to draining the available energy before it needs time to recharge. Destiny is a very powerful and very demanding suit, probably much more demanding to use than SF is. Shinn never uses its full potential.
If there's ever a second version of Destiny in some CE production, I'd say the energy consumption is the only problem they need to work on. Other than that it's pretty good as a lone fighter. But with Legend it would've been even better.

That's why I think Legend is okay as it is when used in combination with another mobile suit, like Destiny.
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:26   Link #120
srb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Actually i really doubt Destiny's potential. It lacks something, and the fact that it can drain its reactor without any particular reason is not helping It lacks weaponry to utilize its speed imo.
Big sword, dual hand cannons, beam rifle, dual beam sabers/beam boomerangs and a big gun isn't enough?

Quote:
It might be faster than Freedom and Justice, bu what for ? It lacks tools to utilize its speed.
It has everything needed to get the job done.

Quote:
Freedom is the beam spamming monster, It can spam truckloads of beams and has DRAGOONS. It has craploads of ranged weapons that come in handy in combat against equal suits.

Justice is a melee monster, it has melee written all over it. Going in to melee with it is not something you want to do, and is a clear advantage against equal suits.
Ah, but both of them lack the versatility of Destiny!

IJ is a short-medium range suit. SF is a medium-long range suit. Destiny is a short-medium-long range suit. It fills a niche in its versatility and it's therefore more demanding to utilize correctly. It's not supposed to enter melee against a melee specialist, it's supposed to fight it at range. It's not supposed to try to outgun a DRAGOON spamming suit, it's supposed to take the fight to it. Shinn doesn't use the suit to its full potential and misuses it. Of course, we have Athrun's and Kira's invincibility shields since they're the big heroes and all, but I'm trying to keep these out of the picture for a fair analysis.

Quote:
Destiny has... a little more speed ? Not really that useful given all it has for range are two rifles, and all it has for melee is the ASS sword and palm canons. Its slight speed advantage doesnt justify the complete lack of effective weaponry against equal suits. It is supposed all-round suit, but as it stands now Freedom fills that role better.
No, Freedom doesn't fill the role better. And Destiny does have beam sabers. "All it has", come on now, all you really need is a rifle and a saber, everything else is just a bonus.

Quote:
Destiny's ranged options are almost non existant, just like Justice, but at least Justice has something in turn - its great melee. What does speed alone give you if you lack the weaponry to effectively fight against equal oponents ?
Four ranged beam weapons is "almost non existant"?

The speed will give the pilot the option to fight the battle on his terms, deciding at which range he has the biggest chance of defeating his foe and then anchoring the fight. Destiny is at least as capable as both SF and IJ and fills a niche role neither one of them does. As both SF and IJ probably are scrapped ZAFT designs, as the Destiny once was, it's theoretically possible that they were supposed to work together, but even without that a team of Destiny, SF and IJ together would be a complete combat team. SF + IJ and Destiny + Legend aren't.

Quote:
and if Destiny had palm cannons that could be used for long range
How long range do you want? The official Bandai video game has Destiny using it at the same ranges other suits use beam rifle, and it shoots down a Murasame at range with it in the show. Shinn's desire to take the fight to the enemy all the time is what limits its use.
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