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Old 2006-08-05, 06:37   Link #121
Skyfall
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The problem with Destinys ranged abilities is - they suck bigtime. Shinn could fire his rifle and canon all day long and that wouldnt do jack to Athrun even if he would be half asleep. Remember, they can dodge dragoons fireing from 8+directions at the same time, one or two beams from same spot is laughable. Athrun could either dodge them or simply activate his beam shield and go ZZZzzzZZZ. Or he could fire back with his fortis canons and rifle - as stated by M_Flores, IJ actually has more ranged weapons than Destiny.

So IJ > Destiny at range
IJ >>>>>>> Destiny in melee

But the melee is the only option how to beat IJ, tho Shinn might try to shoot it down and hope Athrun chokes from laughter and dies, seing that someone is trying to kill him with one beam rifle.
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:39   Link #122
M_Flores
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
How long range do you want? The official Bandai video game has Destiny using it at the same ranges other suits use beam rifle, and it shoots down a Murasame at range with it in the show. Shinn's desire to take the fight to the enemy all the time is what limits its use.

<--- didn't know that. Thanks.

I always imagined Destiny slicing a grunt up, then using the palm cannon as a finisher like Trunks did Freeza
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:39   Link #123
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
What does speed alone give you if you lack the weaponry to effectively fight against equal oponents ?
Speed (when utilized properly, which isn't really shown in GSD unless you pilot a Freedom) gives you the opportunity to give an opponent a death-blow while they are trying//preparing to strike or engage you (see FREEDOM'd once again)...All the melee weapons and beam spammatry in the world means nothing if your target is too fast to hit...DESTINY, while said to be superior in speed, never takes ultimate advantage of this pure advantage (Not to mention unlike every other class mecha it has stupifying limits)...Now that can be blamed on Shinn or alot of other factors (Pick a card, any card), but alas it isn't used in that manner...With it's mirage colloid and speed it should be able to do much more than it did in Final Plus (In-terms of speed--Could you imagine Kira being hit by some railguns in DESTINY or slowing down to match IJ's speed just for the f*ck of it like Shinn does)...But again Shinn was never seen using it with anytype of strategy or technique in mind while fighting the big 2...So much we'll never see...

If DESTINY's speed totally drains it's nuclear energy it must be considerably faster than SF and IJ who are shown to have no trouble keeping up with it in Final Plus (however there is no drainage for them)...WOL is suppose to make it so much faster but we only see maybe 1 scene in ep 42 inwhich it outclasses SF...So basically the speed is suppose to be what makes it superior...All you need is a beam-saber if your fast enuff to engage...that'll still kill people...but DESTINY is a big waste of chedder if it's superior speed isn't it's deadly advantage (I mean so much of it's core-power is devoted to it)...Again it's suppose to be much faster than IJ and SF which it isn't really shown being...So WTF? There's a saying that goes, "Speed kills..."
Quote:
The problem with Destinys ranged abilities is - they suck bigtime
Neither Shinn, nor the Gundam suited with his combat data are ranged fighters...Shinn is a melee, close-quaters fighter...If DESTINY's speed is as awesome as it should be he'd have no reason to fight a ranged battle...And as you saw he easily defeated everything in his path except for the Big 2 (Inwhich he didn't take advantage of his superior speed--which didn't seem to exist in Final +)...
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:52   Link #124
M_Flores
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Speed (when utilized properly, which isn't really shown in GSD unless you pilot a Freedom) gives you the opportunity to give an opponent a death-blow while they are trying//preparing to strike or engage you (see FREEDOM'd once again)...All the melee weapons and beam spammatry in the world means nothing if your target is too fast to hit...DESTINY, while shown being superior in speed, never takes ultimate advantage of this pure advantage (Not to mention unlike every other class mecha it has stupfying limits)...Now that can be blamed on Shinn or alot of other factors (Pick a card, any card), but alas it isn't used in that manner...With it's mirage colloid and speed it should be able to do much more than it did in Final Plus (In-terms of speed--Could you imagine Kira being hit by some railguns in DESTINY or slowing down to match IJ's speed just for the f*ck of it like Shinn does)...But again Shinn was never seen using it with anytype of strategy or technique in mind while fighting the big 2...So much we'll never see...

If DESTINY's speed totally drains it's nuclear energy it must be considerably faster than SF and IJ who are shown to have no trouble keeping up with it in Final Plus (however there is no drainage for them)...WOL is suppose to make it so much faster but we only see maybe 1 scene in ep 42 inwhich it outclasses SF...So basically the speed is suppose to be what makes it superior...All you need is a beam-saber if your fast enuff to engage...that'll still kill people...but DESTINY is a big waste of chedder if it's superior speed isn't it's deadly advantage...Again it's suppose to be much faster than IJ and SF which it isn't really shown being...So WTF? There's a saying that goes, "Speed kills..."
Yeah, I never denied speed being a factor in a fight. Heck, Epyon only had two weapons and was able to outclass any other suit that's not Wing Zero.

However, even with Destiny's speed, I still believe it still faces lack of weaponry against say, ∞J. There's basically nothing Destiny could do against ∞J even with the best pilot. Boomerangs can be countered, cannon can be dodged/blocked, sword can be easily destroyed, plus the fact that Destiny is vaguely able to use all its weaponry at once is a pretty significant flaw.
Battles can be won with speed only to a certain extent. Number of weapons can also factor the battle only to a certain extent.
But Destiny's best weapons are not handsfree. Any skilled pilot can block a big red beam shot plus ASS slash, but its hard to counter a dual beam saber coming at you, a leg saber or two coming to kick at you, another huge beam sword coming at you while a hook shoots out to reel you in, while a back pack is about to ram you and slice you, while shooting at you - and this can all happen at the same time because they're handsfree.


In this case, ∞J's weapon load out was more of a factor than Destiny's superior speed. That's why I'm saying, if Destiny had the real wings of light (which I'd say is much faster than the ripped off version it has), may be a match for ∞J's blade-filled chassis.

As for Legend, it has many handsfree weapons, but they're basically all the same. It can use all it's weapons at once, however, it lacks the variety of Destiny.
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Old 2006-08-05, 06:59   Link #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
The problem with Destinys ranged abilities is - they suck bigtime. Shinn could fire his rifle and canon all day long and that wouldnt do jack to Athrun even if he would be half asleep. Remember, they can dodge dragoons fireing from 8+directions at the same time, one or two beams from same spot is laughable.
And yet ranged weaponry is still in use. It's actually the main mode of attack of SF. Doesn't that make SF suck bigtime compared to Destiny since Destiny has five close-combat weapons, then?

Quote:
Athrun could either dodge them or simply activate his beam shield and go ZZZzzzZZZ. Or he could fire back with his fortis canons and rifle - as stated by M_Flores, IJ actually has more ranged weapons than Destiny.
A false statement, only applicable if you count all of IJ's CIWS, which are for all intens and purposes completely useless against PS armor. Destiny has six ranged weapons, IJ has five (rifle, two cannons, one beam boomerang, one grappling hook), or six if the glider isn't connected.


Quote:
So IJ > Destiny at range
IJ >>>>>>> Destiny in melee
No.

Quote:
But the melee is the only option how to beat IJ, tho Shinn might try to shoot it down and hope Athrun chokes from laughter and dies, seing that someone is trying to kill him with one beam rifle.
Glad we finally came to the conclusion that ranged weaponry sucks and melee is the way to go. Thus, you've officially turned right around on your point that IJ and SF are SOOPERIOOOOR for some arbitrary reason and clearly stated that SF sucks bigtime, Destiny's decent and IJ's the unbeatable God of the battlefield.

And now for Flores post:

Quote:
But Destiny's best weapons are not handsfree. Any skilled pilot can block a big red beam shot plus ASS slash, but its hard to counter a dual beam saber coming at you, a leg saber or two coming to kick at you, another huge beam sword coming at you while a hook shoots out to reel you in, while a back pack is about to ram you and slice you, while shooting at you - and this can all happen at the same time because they're handsfree.
Good point, but I would say that Destiny does have two very versatile and very powerful handsfree weapons - the hands themselves. They're woefully underused in any other way than "Hay, GUY, I will charge at you from half a kilometer with a charging beam in my MS' palms, clearly stating my intent". Also, IJ detaching the backpack would quite possibly be one of the worst things you can do against Destiny - you'd lose woefully much speed, but Destiny would probably be able to avoid it with ease. It serves the best when it's attached. But yes, more handsfree weapons are always good, but the only real edge that IJ has in close combat are the leg blades. Excellent positioning, excellent weapon. The rest of the blades, except for the beam sabers, aren't really a concern.
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Old 2006-08-05, 07:03   Link #126
wingdarkness
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@M_Flores - Think about when FREEEDOM does it's little twirl-move to kill grunts with only a beam-saber...DESTINY is suppose to have that type of speed difference on IJ and SF...But we never see it...DESTINY is an awesome suit..It's ASS-SWORD is brilliant if you think about it (What couldn't it slice to threads weilding it at that speed?) But it is inherently flawed when pitted against two suits that come out of the technological woodworx and immediatley outclasses it, yet can't outclass it's speed (It's deadliest feature inwhich more than half of it's energy is devoted)...So I guess the answer lies in Shinn just being so much $hitier of a pilot, but I think you know my feelings to some extent on that concession...

With all it's lack of weaponry and lack of range engagement and even lack of melee dominace vs. IJ,...Do you think Kira would be as limited if he fought with it against the same suits? I imagine DESTINY would have an even cooler twirl-move...
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Old 2006-08-05, 07:08   Link #127
monster
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That's funny, Destiny is limited by its chosen pilot's method of fighting. I guess that's the problem when the suit is forced to comply with the pilot rather than the other way around.

So anyone want to say anything else about Legend?...
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Old 2006-08-05, 07:12   Link #128
Anh_Minh
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Speed isn't everything. You don't need to be faster than a Suit to dodge it, especially considering the fact that being fast lengthens your turning radius.
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Old 2006-08-05, 07:14   Link #129
srb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Speed isn't everything. You don't need to be faster than a Suit to dodge it, especially considering the fact that being fast lengthens your turning radius.
Depends entirely on where the thrust that generates the speed is being targeted.
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Old 2006-08-05, 07:15   Link #130
C.A.
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Originally Posted by monstert
So anyone want to say anything else about Legend?...
lol I was about to remind you guys that this thread is about Legend.

I think after this train of discussions between Destiny, IJ and SF, we can safely say that Legend is a suit that was doomed from the start.
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Old 2006-08-05, 07:22   Link #131
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh Minh
Speed isn't everything. You don't need to be faster than a Suit to dodge it, especially considering the fact that being fast lengthens your turning radius.
Look, DESTINY is suppose to be like Yoda at the end of episode II...It's so fast that it should be doing all kinds of unorthodox movements and $hit (which we see glimpses of), keeping the opponent so off-balance that they don't have the time to think about whether they should use their jet-pack or their toe-slicers or their grappler grabbers or their beam-slashers...With it's mirage colloid after images that should increase the unpredictability of said movements atleast 2 or 3 fold, but Shinn (for some inexplicable reasoning ) chose to operate that $hit like SWORD-IMPLUSE all day...Unlike when he studied FREEDOM and how to countermeasure it, yet sadly he didn't learn the same lesson in episode 42 when he was bested that he learned in episodes 23 (and 28 to a lesser extent) when he was bested...
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Old 2006-08-05, 08:11   Link #132
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
No.
um...ok, please explain how Destiny is better than IJ in melee


Quote:
Glad we finally came to the conclusion that ranged weaponry sucks and melee is the way to go. Thus, you've officially turned right around on your point that IJ and SF are SOOPERIOOOOR for some arbitrary reason and clearly stated that SF sucks bigtime, Destiny's decent and IJ's the unbeatable God of the battlefield.
Yes, melee is a lot more effective for taking out skilled pilots, however SF atually has enaugh ranged firepower to be a threat. I think we dont need to debate that SF is infinitely better at spamming stuff. Its not guaranteed to work, but with SF ranged abilities it is worth a shot, this is not the case for Destiny.


Quote:
but the only real edge that IJ has in close combat are the leg blades. Excellent positioning, excellent weapon. The rest of the blades, except for the beam sabers, aren't really a concern.
And as we have seen - thats all thats needed to scrap Destiny
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Old 2006-08-05, 09:49   Link #133
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Poor Legend, the most under-rated out of the big 4...no body loves him...
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Old 2006-08-05, 10:04   Link #134
Skyfall
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no body even talks about it anymore

Verdict - it definitely could have been better
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Old 2006-08-05, 11:12   Link #135
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@wingdarkness- Dog, I totally agree with you. Destiny's speed in ep 42 was shown to be ridiculous.......to the point where Kira and S. Freedom just couldn't keep up. And like you, it bothers me that Shin no longer uses any battle tactics when fighting Kira.....heck common sense for that matter (I mean, knowing S. Freedom has that chest beam cannon, I'd have to be extremely careful in how I approach it, especially if when my sole chance of taking it out is at close-range).

Hmm........about Legend......I don't know if I'd necessarily say it's underated. The way I see it, Legend imitates all bit/DRAGOON MS from the past...........and anyone who has any knowledge of bit/DRAGOON MS knows how powerful they are. So, there's not too much intrigue in talking about an MS that you already know is powerful. But MS with discrepancies, like Destiny, lol, are fun to talk about.
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Old 2006-08-05, 11:16   Link #136
C.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vblaze101
Hmm........about Legend......I don't know if I'd necessarily say it's underated. The way I see it, Legend imitates all bit/DRAGOON MS from the past...........and anyone who has any knowledge of bit/DRAGOON MS knows how powerful they are. So, there's not too much intrigue in talking about an MS that you already know is powerful. But MS with discrepancies, like Destiny, lol, are fun to talk about.
I'd agree Legend is actually underrated, but not in the CE universe, where its just surrounded by overpowered MSes and characters protected by plot. Legend is too weak compared to SF, IJ and Destiny, even Akatsuki, which just means that Legend really is a weak suit in the CE universe, its not underrated.

If Legend was to exist in the UC universe, it would become a top tier MS. And if its controlled by a newtype, it would almost become overpowered.
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Old 2006-08-05, 18:34   Link #137
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In other words, Legend actually makes sense.
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Old 2006-08-05, 21:51   Link #138
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I'd like to discuss on the speed factor again.
Yes, speed is one thing, but there are two sides of the coin. The other side of this coin being battle power/weapons/whatever you wanna call it.
I'm betting pretty much that Legend is the slowest, bulkiest outta the four suits. No matter what, Legend will always have this disadvantage. That's why I'm wondering why Legend only has 10 dragoons.
Seriously, if it had more dragoons at the same places Prov had them, it could probably be up there with the other three suits, despite being slower.

Seriously, Legend has NO advantage over any of the three.
Destiny's more than fast enough to manuever past the Dragoons, and the only thing Legend has for melee are the two sabers.
Strike Freedom, well even without the BS speech Kira gave, it could still multiple lock-on to all the Dragoons and shot them down (SF has 13 guns, to take down 10 Dragoons).
Legend Vs ∞ Justice, a bit of a grey area here I'd say, but since we considered Legend being the slowest of the four, it would have minor to little problems dodging the Dragoons. However, a Legend Vs ∞ Justice fight would've been interesting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by srb

And now for Flores post:


Good point, but I would say that Destiny does have two very versatile and very powerful handsfree weapons - the hands themselves. They're woefully underused in any other way than "Hay, GUY, I will charge at you from half a kilometer with a charging beam in my MS' palms, clearly stating my intent". Also, IJ detaching the backpack would quite possibly be one of the worst things you can do against Destiny - you'd lose woefully much speed, but Destiny would probably be able to avoid it with ease. It serves the best when it's attached. But yes, more handsfree weapons are always good, but the only real edge that IJ has in close combat are the leg blades. Excellent positioning, excellent weapon. The rest of the blades, except for the beam sabers, aren't really a concern.
Maybe Justice wouldn't need the woefully much speed it loses?
Justice can just sit there and block the cannon, counter the boomerangs, block the ASS, and everything else Destiny tries, despite how much faster it is, while (although we're not really sure how advanced the backpack is, we're just meant to assume it's remote controlled - if the backpack is really as advanced as we'd like, I'd assume it can be autopiloted, whatever, etc.) the backpack chases Destiny (although we assume Destiny is fast enough to avoid this) to distract, and lure Destiny into a close combat fight, falling for Justice's trap.

Destiny can be as fast as it likes to be, but a backpack chasing (AND shooting at, btw) you, while trying to maim an MS that can block and counter everything you throw at it, its still a slim chance for victory.
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Old 2006-08-05, 22:11   Link #139
grandmaster192
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Comparing the destiny to the IJ is just unfair. It's like coparing a Leo to the Wing Gundam. The IJ is so mutch better then the Destiny. It has better ranged weapons and way more melee weapons.
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Old 2006-08-05, 22:22   Link #140
Nightengale
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@grandmaster : - Bull. I don't even want to start on why.

You know, have any of you ever considered that a faster speed in Destiny compared to S.Freedom isn't any problem for Kira? I don't know about you guys, but GSD Kira gives me the impression that he has the most l33t reaction time compared to...everyone. Sure, he lost to Shinn once, but he actually did manage to react to almost every offensive manuever he used even if the shield got pierced. Be it from drawing a sword to strike Savior or the side-walk kick to Destiny Fingaa, he feels like he's a living embodiment of Char's Zaku, 3 times as fast.

And Athrun vs Shinn.....Athrun plays mind games.
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