AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-01-16, 08:08   Link #141
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selic
To a degree. One of the big problems that I see is that they seem to have to stop to fire. I doubt they're incapable of firing on the move but I wouldn't say that it isn't a possibility with the way they're depicted.
There's no such thing as "stop" in space, so it's a moot point. There is the ability to match speed and vectors with a target, but a gun system that's consistently capable of doing that is a superior platform anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selic
Problem is that mental strain on Newtypes using remote weapons really seems to vary. Amuro had no problems using the Fin Funnels from the start. I'd say that's partly because he's just developed his abilities to such a point rather than it being a sign of the lack of strain. Quess learned to use Funnels in a very short amount of time and showed no signs of stress in their use.

While there's the need to micromanage Funnels, characters have shown repeatedly that the strain is minimal at best.
Since this is an issue of relative capabilities, there isn't any data about how effective they'd be with an alternate setup for comparison. It's quite possible that a more efficient system would have made combat easier for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selic
Note: I am referring to what it can do, not what it would do. We've seen from Dragoon footage that they just move in jerky motions from seemingly predetermined points, but I don't doubt that the program could be altered to produce the fluid movement of funnels and vice-versa, it's just the limits of the control system (More factors to calculate due to more complex flightpaths for instance).
Are you trying to say that the DRAGOONs can go from their current motion to adopt the less efficient motion of the funnels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters
While we can debate on the powerplant, weapons arsenal and so forth, we are forgetting what this discussion is pointing at. It's simple, Dragoons can be programmed to be used by your standard soldier, funnels/bit cannot. the DRAGOON is a more flexible system because you can improve its software and you can use. It can evolve from the interface point of view because of its computerized nature.
I don't know if there's any demonstrated advantage for the DRAGOONs to be more flexible, but it certainly seems to be using a superior design philosophy.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-16, 16:32   Link #142
Edgewood
Shining FINGER~!!!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Around people that I hate for no good reason.
Send a message via AIM to Edgewood Send a message via MSN to Edgewood Send a message via Yahoo to Edgewood
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
lol is there are need to ask?

Bits are the best, not funnels or DRAGOONs.

Theres a difference between funnels and bits. Bits either have more stamina or they have on board power sources, they are also more advanced and versatile.

Funnels are basically just flying guns, they are just deployed for shooting and have to return to the ms quickly for recharging.

Quin Mantha, Quebeley and Sazabi are examples of funnel users.

Bits have more varied capabilites.

The famous Fin Funnel is actually a bit despite its name. Each Fin Funnel carries a compact fusion reactor, has more fire power than most funnels and is also a mobile set of I-field generators.

Psycho Gundam MKII's Reflector bits can be used as both an offence and defence system. Beams from Psycho Gundam MKII's spread beam cannons can be precisely reflected to targets by the Reflector bits. At the same time it can reflect incoming beams from the enemy. The bits are very efficient since they have no onboard weapons that needs recharging, they can stay operational for long periods of time compared to funnels.
<redundant comment removed>

Fundamentally, Funnels and DrAGOOn weapons are the exact same things, just used in different contexts (no more than a difference in fictional settings).

BITS, on the other hand, are fundamentally different in only ONE way; they have onboard generators.

Bits have NEVER, EVER been better than funnels from a deployment standpoint. A funnel could carry the same technologies as bits and use the same weapons configurations and utilize the same vernier constructions, but it would simply have less OPERATING time. Now, if you still want to say that Bits are superior to Funnels for some arbitrary reason, then here's all you have left:

By the time that Bits had become more commonplace, the ability to shrink Minovsky Ultra-Compacts for use in things smaller than Mobile Weapons was also just as commonplace and far more practical. You didn't see Funnels as often, because most of the limited- or single-production MS using Newtype technologies were going overboard with the features and Bits seemed more cost-effective when you were burning a budget on just one or two machines.

Some silly bastard in the late UC could just as easily have multi-functioning Funnels if only because his MS had a generator and energy distribution setup that made the necessity of recharging and re-deploying less of a hassle and more of a faux pas, like asking for extra pickles on your fucking hamburger.

So, what reasons do you have left to arbitrate that one is fundamentally "better" than the other aside from operating time?
__________________

For all of you retarded bastards out there that didn't like MS IGLOO, I humbly offer you the Shining Finger
Edgewood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-16, 18:15   Link #143
Shinji103
Crazy Devout Fanboy
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 1st Ra Cailum-class battleship Ra Cailum, port-side officer's bunks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenemis View Post
Regardless, multiple beam nozzles is virtually an automatic advantage, that's the intention with which I stated it.

Ignoring extra energy usage, and perhaps collateral damage potential, 5 guns will always be better than one.
As I stated as well, multiple-gun remote weapons were shown to not be an automatic advantage or automatically better in GSEED.
__________________
Shinji103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-16, 21:41   Link #144
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
At most, that would show that multiple-beam DRAGOONs aren't any more effective in a duel. I'd imagine that they'd be more useful in the massed-combat situations which probably fit their mission profile more.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-16, 22:40   Link #145
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Dragoons or bits shouldn't be a debate...

What *is* without a doubt the best weapon out of all of those is...

The akatsuki's gold funnels.
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-16, 23:15   Link #146
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
Ping!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Albany
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via MSN to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via Yahoo to RX-78GP04G Gerbera
reply

Not really...the Akatsuki's remote weapons are really just CE's version of the Nu Gundam's Fin Funnels....beams + capable of creating a beam shield.
__________________
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
RX-78GP04G Gerbera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-16, 23:36   Link #147
Zenemis
Megabuddy
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Perth, Australia.
Age: 6
But they've got this beautiful golden colour, like just-right chips.
__________________
Zenemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-16, 23:48   Link #148
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
Not really...the Akatsuki's remote weapons are really just CE's version of the Nu Gundam's Fin Funnels....beams + capable of creating a beam shield.
Well, the Akatsuki-version had the added HAX defense of being invulnerable to beam projectiles...
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-17, 03:23   Link #149
Selic
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Well, the Akatsuki-version had the added HAX defense of being invulnerable to beam projectiles...
Gundam SEED's beams anyway.
Selic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-17, 04:23   Link #150
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selic View Post
Gundam SEED's beams anyway.
The Akatsuki armor in SEED was shown to be able to reflect multiple beam types, including positrons. There is a small possibility that it wouldn't work against UC beam weapons, but you have to agree that it is conjecture either way. After all, no one actually know the difference, if any, exists between the beam rifle of RX-78-2 to that of Strike Gundam.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-17, 05:00   Link #151
Dan the Man
Defeater of Robot Masters
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wherever YOU aren't. Thanks for not visiting... *Sniff*
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to Dan the Man Send a message via MSN to Dan the Man
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The Akatsuki armor in SEED was shown to be able to reflect multiple beam types, including positrons. There is a small possibility that it wouldn't work against UC beam weapons, but you have to agree that it is conjecture either way. After all, no one actually know the difference, if any, exists between the beam rifle of RX-78-2 to that of Strike Gundam.
Well, the 78's rifle uses Minovsky particles, while the Strike's uses unnamed particles. Apart from the name, I don't think there is much of a difference. Now that I think of it, is it even possible to develop armor that would totally reflect particle weapons? I know there's an "anti-beam" coating on CE shields and warships, but it wears off with successive hits. Is it physically possible to produce coating that completely reflects accelerated particles without any adverse heat effects damaging it?
__________________

-----Chicks dig giant robots------
Dan the Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-17, 11:05   Link #152
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Clearly, the Akatsuki has that.
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-17, 11:18   Link #153
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan the Man View Post
Well, the 78's rifle uses Minovsky particles, while the Strike's uses unnamed particles. Apart from the name, I don't think there is much of a difference. Now that I think of it, is it even possible to develop armor that would totally reflect particle weapons? I know there's an "anti-beam" coating on CE shields and warships, but it wears off with successive hits. Is it physically possible to produce coating that completely reflects accelerated particles without any adverse heat effects damaging it?
It shouldn't be possible. The accelerated particles are going to dump all of their energy on discrete sections of the coating, rather than the whole. If you could change physics to distribute the energy rather than have it in discrete packets, you'd be able to do it.

The idea of a positron beam is absurd in the atmosphere anyways(did they ever use them in non-space environments?), so I'm not sure how much relevance this would have anyways. Positrons are going to annihilate in too short of a distance to make much of a useful weapon. A decent chunk of the radiation would fly back at the shooter instead of going towards the target, since annihilation produces 2 photons with a 180 degree difference.
Scorch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-17, 12:39   Link #154
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan the Man View Post
Is it physically possible to produce coating that completely reflects accelerated particles without any adverse heat effects damaging it?
Charged particles are going to be deflected by a like charge, so theoretically it's possible to use electromagnetic fields for protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scroch
The idea of a positron beam is absurd in the atmosphere anyways(did they ever use them in non-space environments?), so I'm not sure how much relevance this would have anyways.
Neither the Tannhauser nor the Lohengrin function the way one would expect of pure positron cannons, so I think it's safe to assume that the weapons are a little more complicated than that. Possibly it'd work in two phases: a regular beam component to create some sort of vaccuum followed by the positron beam component, or something like that.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-17, 21:32   Link #155
Dan the Man
Defeater of Robot Masters
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wherever YOU aren't. Thanks for not visiting... *Sniff*
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to Dan the Man Send a message via MSN to Dan the Man
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Charged particles are going to be deflected by a like charge, so theoretically it's possible to use electromagnetic fields for protection.
True, but the way I've read it, the Akatsuki's armor is just coated with the reflective... coating. So it's not actually using EM fields , it just seems to be essentially a special coat of gold stuff which makes beams go away, which is why it seemed odd to me.
__________________

-----Chicks dig giant robots------
Dan the Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-17, 23:51   Link #156
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
There's no definite explanation for what Cosmic Era beams are, so it's sort of jumping the gun to speculate on how Akatsuki's armor works. I believe the official explanation is along the lines of "mirror-coating" or something like that, but that's still rather inconsistent with what's portrayed on-screen.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-18, 00:50   Link #157
Selic
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
The less said about the Akatsuki's armor, the better. It's just a headache.
Selic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-18, 02:24   Link #158
Shinji103
Crazy Devout Fanboy
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 1st Ra Cailum-class battleship Ra Cailum, port-side officer's bunks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selic View Post
The less said about the Akatsuki's armor, the better. It's just a headache.
Truer words were never spoken.
__________________
Shinji103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-18, 02:55   Link #159
Dan the Man
Defeater of Robot Masters
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wherever YOU aren't. Thanks for not visiting... *Sniff*
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to Dan the Man Send a message via MSN to Dan the Man
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
There's no definite explanation for what Cosmic Era beams are, so it's sort of jumping the gun to speculate on how Akatsuki's armor works. I believe the official explanation is along the lines of "mirror-coating" or something like that, but that's still rather inconsistent with what's portrayed on-screen.
Well, according to wikipedia at least, CE beam weapons are just particle beams, so they're just accelerated particles. From that, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be much more different than beams in the UC universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selic View Post
The less said about the Akatsuki's armor, the better. It's just a headache.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Truer words were never spoken.
That's very true, but I've got nothing else to talk about.
__________________

-----Chicks dig giant robots------
Dan the Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-18, 08:08   Link #160
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Generally, you should never rely on Wikipedia for any detail on Gundam. UC technologies and Cosmic Era technologies are fundamentally different, so there isn't any particular for their beam technologies to be similar either.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.