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Old 2006-06-17, 16:19   Link #41
Wavie
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ill make this post short but sweet - im too tired to make a long one.

k here goes... everyone should know they plan to go to moon - they cant at moment caues it is at moment ment to be a meteor magnet in a way due - new craters every week or so i believe - no strong ozone layer obviously.

They cannot predict the meteors up there because the predictions for earth are made based on its rotation and orbit... we have no equipment on moon so we cannot do the same up there.

Why are satelites in earths orbit safe? Because Earth has measures for detecting incomming objects around the planet.

I believe the moon is going to be a staging point to the rest of the universe to.

Why? Because humanity wont need to go through so much trouble getting the space ships out of earths orbit... they just need to send materials up there and the low gravity will make it easier for the ships to leave from there.

Why dont they make the spaceships in Earths orbit? Donno
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Old 2006-06-17, 16:23   Link #42
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Space elevators are actually the most cost efficient (in terms of energy) method. Once it's setup, as long as you balance the loads well (I do mean some kind of pulley system), you practically have nothing to pay.

Any other method, whether by chemical rockets or by mass drivers, and you'll have need an irreducible amount of energy. (Something like GMm/r , where G is the universal gravitational constant, M is the mass of the Earth, r the radius of the Earth, and m the mass of the object you want to send up.) In the case of chemical rockets, remember there's also the energy cost of the fuel you want to send up part of the way too...

And as I already explained, mass drivers just aren't practical. I made a rough calculation, neglecting air resistance.

Escape velocity is 11km/s, which I rounded down to 10km/s.
I assumed a 100km track and constant acceleration. (Probably unrealistic, but whatever.)

That would mean you reach escape velocity in 20s, after being accelerated at the rate of 500m/s^2 (~50g). A bit like having an elephant sit on you.

And as I said, that was with completely unrealistic assumptions. The reality's a lot worse.


And yes, a space elevator would take days. So what? Why do you think we still use cars and trains instead of everyone getting around in helicopters? Cars and trains are affordable. Helicopters, for most uses, aren't.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2006-06-18 at 05:50.
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Old 2006-06-17, 19:57   Link #43
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Quote:
Escape velocity is 11km/s, which I rounded up to 10km/s.
I assumed a 100km track and constant acceleration. (Probably unrealistic, but whatever.)

That would mean you reach escape velocity in 20s, after being accelerated at the rate of 500m/s^2 (~50g). A bit like having an elephant sit on you.
When transporting squishy cargo, you might not want to accelerate it to escape velocity on the driver. Use the old multi-stage rockets+mass driver, which we do see in Gundam(Specifically CCA).

Not to mention that a 100km track would be larger than several nations...

Quote:
financially desirable
Someone on another forum had figures stating that the average asteroid was worth 840 Billion Dollars.

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k here goes... everyone should know they plan to go to moon - they cant at moment caues it is at moment ment to be a meteor magnet in a way due - new craters every week or so i believe - no strong ozone layer obviously.
The six Apollo landings never had a problem with meteorites.
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Old 2006-06-17, 20:15   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander 598
The six Apollo landings never had a problem with meteorites.
They werent staying on the moon - they were there for a short period of time - if an outpost was on the moon and stayed there they would obviously be there if one was to hit... where as the apollo landings were there for a short time.
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Old 2006-06-17, 20:35   Link #45
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From what I've heard, mass drivers aren't feasible on Earth. On the moon and Mars maybe.. but Earth is a different story.

A space elevator definitely sounds interesting though. But given the fact that it needs to be at least tens of thousands of kilometers long and require materials far stronger than something we have right now (last I heard they were messing around with carbon nanotubes) I'll believe it when I see it. It would be cool if I could see one within my lifetime though... slow, but cheap transportation to space.
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Old 2006-06-17, 20:52   Link #46
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what would happen if the space elevator fell over once it was built tho... few countries might be in trouble.
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Old 2006-06-17, 22:12   Link #47
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Not to mention that the elevator has to follow Earth's rotation+orbit all the while maintaining the tube balance. It also has to deal with the weather conditions and maintenance for the huge thing could be costly. Also the risks envolve would be far greater.

Quote:
From what I've heard, mass drivers aren't feasible on Earth. On the moon and Mars maybe.. but Earth is a different story.
Why isn't it feasible? You won't deal with friction just air resistance/gravity. Look at bullet train technology, they charge magnets to make the train move, nothing touches the metal thus no friction. I think we can go mach 3-4 with that thing then finish it off with a multistage rocket to push through the atmosphere.
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Old 2006-06-17, 22:42   Link #48
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Wavie feel free to post this on your thread.

I see nothing wrong with a mass driver. However I don't like the idea of humans in space and I am quite sure the universe feels the same way too.
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Old 2006-06-17, 22:59   Link #49
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We are getting ahead of ourselves...

Things like the space elevator are high-tech devices that would only be built after there is existing infrastructure already in space that requires it.

It would be like trying to build an extremely long and expensive underwater tunnel connecting a city to an empty, uninhabited island.

Things like the space elevator and mass-driver can't yet exist, because there is no demand for such things. You can't invent and build a transport system that no one needs to use. These expensive projects you fellas are dreaming up would be built, but only after existing means of transportation becomes insufficient.

We would need to have demands for hundreds, if not thousands of tonnes of goods moving through Earth's atmosphere every week before something like a mass-driver becomes profitable.

A Space Elevator would take several lifetimes to construct, and by the time it's finished we would probably have extensive transport networks as competition. The cost of a SE will also be beyond a single nation, and I don't see any united effort anytime soon.

People are getting it all wrong; we aren't lacking in space-traveling equipment. We are merely lacking motivation. Everything else will follow.

Quote:
However I don't like the idea of humans in space and I am quite sure the universe feels the same way too.
You do realise that indirectly, you are implying that you are not comfortable of humans existing period, right?

There are a large number of people who believe humanity is the rightful masters of the universe. This line of thought is not new.

But recently in terms of human history, those who believe in the complete opposite seemed to have gained favour amongst the populous. The belief that humanity is a terrible accident that is better off not existing.

Both lines of thought, ironically, are identical in one thing; the belief that humanity is somehow special. That somehow, we are the only species that pollutes. The only species that overpopulates, and the only species that alter the environment.

Such arrogance... The two lines of thought are equally off the mark.

Remember the first Matrix movie?
Agent Smith described humans as a virus strand... Ironically, a virus is as much a part of nature as everything else. When he described the machines as the "cure" for humanity, Agent Smith is ironically thinking like a human; that there is "good" and "bad" things in nature, and the bad things must be removed. Smith showed that he was no different from humans from that line.
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Old 2006-06-17, 23:27   Link #50
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Originally Posted by VCV
We would need to have demands for hundreds, if not thousands of tonnes of goods moving through Earth's atmosphere every week before something like a mass-driver becomes profitable.
Well if you're gonna make a space colony why not start by making an effective way to send materials to space?
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Old 2006-06-17, 23:33   Link #51
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Originally Posted by tritoch
Well if you're gonna make a space colony why not start by making an effective way to send materials to space?
Demand first, supply later.

You need a REASON to send materials to space.

That's how it works in an economy.
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Old 2006-06-17, 23:39   Link #52
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Thinking that humans should not venture into space is like thinking that humans should not have a future. If the universe felt that humans shouldn't be in space, why did it allow us to evolve to such levels of intelligence and allow us to develop technology that can bring us to space?

From what I've read:

If we can pull off space elevators, its actually the cheapest method of transporting stuff into space, a space station that is. On each space station cargo will be distributed to the various locations, Moon, colonies etc, by cargo shuttles.

Mass drivers can be built on Earth, NASA already has plans for a shuttle with no self propelling capabilities that is shot out of Earth from a mass driver deep inside a mountain range. The entire length of mass driver is reduced by making it a spiralling track, just like the barrel of a gun. The shuttle will/may not be piloted, but piloted remotely from NASA headquaters or a control centre at the mass driver, or it could be AI controlled. Piloting or AI control is only needed when the shuttle is in space, using directional thrusters to move it to a space station or colony.

Mass drivers in Moon would be much easier for there is no air resistance at all. Along with the plan I said above about converting the moon into a giant mine, they were planning to shoot the cargo off the moon towards the earth and let them land on specific areas, probably by parachute and be retrieved.

EDIT: Either way will be many times cheaper than fuel rockets if they can be created.
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Old 2006-06-17, 23:44   Link #53
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But aren't we talking about "Bring on the space colonies"?

Im just stating my view on how to efficiently send stuff to space. So I guess the demand is implied.
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Old 2006-06-18, 00:54   Link #54
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By materials I take it you mean materials to construct the colony with. By colony I presume orbital habitats and not lunar settlements.

The best way to get materials into space then, would be to look in space. Dragging a load of crap from Earth to L5 would require alot of energy, and it would be a waste when you can just manufacture it at the moon and ship it to wherever via mass driver.
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Old 2006-06-18, 01:04   Link #55
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Commander 598
By materials I take it you mean materials to construct the colony with. By colony I presume orbital habitats and not lunar settlements.

The best way to get materials into space then, would be to look in space. Dragging a load of crap from Earth to L5 would require alot of energy, and it would be a waste when you can just manufacture it at the moon and ship it to wherever via mass driver.
Indeed. I agree.

In order for colonies to exist at all, they must be self-sufficient. Right now, everything the International Spacestation needs had to be sent up from Earth. It's not possible for this model to continue for large scale colonies.

The types of goods transported between Space and Earth must be of sufficient value that there is no other way to obtain them. But the only way the transport could be payed for is if there is existing profit for doing so.

Put it simply, no one is going to build a mass-driver for real unless they can financially break even in their lifetime.
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Old 2006-06-18, 05:04   Link #56
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I think we'll see mobile armors pretty soon... will they have phase shit?
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Old 2006-06-18, 05:36   Link #57
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VCV is right, its all about economics.
Tho i wish it wasnt as it will take a long time before space becomes economically viable.
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Old 2006-06-18, 06:47   Link #58
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There's nothing wrong with the mass driver on earth. You can deal with the extreme acceleration building a mass driver long enough to slowly accelerate the vehicle without sudden G acceleration.
What about the electrogravitic propulsion ?
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Old 2006-06-18, 10:05   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Indeed. I agree.

In order for colonies to exist at all, they must be self-sufficient. Right now, everything the International Spacestation needs had to be sent up from Earth. It's not possible for this model to continue for large scale colonies.
That brings us by another interesting point. What kind of technology would be required to build such a colony?

Also if we want to build a space colony that is self-sufficient and could sustain human life for say a decade without outside interference human needs must also be considered. What does a human being need for a decade aside from basic things like food & water
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Old 2006-06-18, 10:24   Link #60
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by ZeQueH
That brings us by another interesting point. What kind of technology would be required to build such a colony?

Also if we want to build a space colony that is self-sufficient and could sustain human life for say a decade without outside interference human needs must also be considered. What does a human being need for a decade aside from basic things like food & water
A step at a time, please. A step at a time.

The first true workers in space would almost certainly be either miners or engineers. They would be tough people, and capable of maintaining sanity while living under hellish conditions for long periods.

As I already explained, there is no need to build a mass driver until there is a full size colony in space.

There is no need for a full-size colony in space until there is enough people who wants to live there.

You won't have enough people wanting to live there until there is enough job opportunities in space.

You will have enough job opportunities when space-ran business is profitable and has a large number of well-paid employees to create a local economy.

********
We haven't even solved the profitability issues yet; we can worry about the rest later. Everything else will straighten themselves out if each problem is solved in their correct stages.

We can worry about giant Space colonies and space elevators/mass-drivers when we actually need them. Not before. You can never build anything until there is a demand for it.

Sure, you can build a mass driver that won't be needed until a decade later. But by that time the technology would have advanced so much that the old Mass driver would be considered a crude and dangerous antique, and something better could be built instead.
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