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Old 2004-12-06, 20:49   Link #81
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
It's supposed to be a trilogy so hopefully you'll get your fullfilling ending eventually.

What happened to Hitomi's looks? She was so cute in the manga.
Dude. Are you saying that there's going to be SEQUELS to the movies? If you say yes, I'm just going to explode in orgasmic happiness. More Deunan = more <3.
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Old 2004-12-06, 21:03   Link #82
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephisto03
I hope your remembering this is a anime from the 80's
Dude. Have you read the manga? It's storyline is WAY different from the movie. It could have been easily changed; plus I'm not complaining about the cliche plot as much as I'm complaining about how the perspectives taken and the basic general plotline is nothing to be amazed about.

In general, I believe that cliche/rehashed plots are ultimately different in masterful hands; we can take an issue that has been revisited millions of times but under a director with peculiar vision; a certain unexplored dimension can be brought to light and the whole issue takes a different shade of color.

Does Appleseed manage to do this? No.

Does this make Appleseed a bad movie? No. It was solid entertainment.

And plus, I'm more of a "whole-package" person; I can appreciate certain aspects of a film even if it's not well received generally. Like how most people complain about Escaflowne the movie and think it's shit, while *I* think its THE-shit. Mainly because of its extremely awesome artistic DIRECTION... it's editing and all was perfect; along with its music. In this case, Appleseed wow-ed me CONTINUALLY with its graphics, and how they managed to display that range of emotions with the CG.

Spoiler:


Honestly I would like to see more films in the CG style of Appleseed; it is TRULY cutting edge and presents a WEALTH of opportunities for future anime movies. I can't disagree more with Masamune Shirow himself; you can read his words on the official Apple Seed movie site, and how he's really excited on 3D as a medium for anime. Man.. I'm just rambling like crazy.

Summary: Plot and execution of it is mediocre, graphics are AMAZING, music is above average, artistic direction is great, MOVIE IS GOOD.
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Old 2004-12-07, 18:08   Link #83
Mephisto03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Raiden
Mephisto03, the one we're talking about is the 2004 version of it. Not the original 1988 movie. And TronDD, what do you mean she's not cute?? I thought Hitomi was very cute. ^_^
Obviously you didn't get what I wrote. At least arias did and commented in the right direction. And yes there is a rumor or news whatever it is that there are 3 movies. And the cg is awesome but I really wish they didn't go in the direction of "cell-shading" type art for the characters cause you lose alot of subtle and distinct emotion in the faces. Speciall since even though running and idleing actions looked extremely realistic and adult conversation is 60% of the body. That still leaves a nice 40% gap lost (I think was lost in ALOT of scenes anyhow) or not to much attention done to in the movie.
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Old 2004-12-07, 19:20   Link #84
TronDD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Dude. Are you saying that there's going to be SEQUELS to the movies? If you say yes, I'm just going to explode in orgasmic happiness. More Deunan = more <3.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...3&postcount=30
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Old 2004-12-07, 20:18   Link #85
arias
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Originally Posted by Mephisto03
Obviously you didn't get what I wrote. At least arias did and commented in the right direction. And yes there is a rumor or news whatever it is that there are 3 movies. And the cg is awesome but I really wish they didn't go in the direction of "cell-shading" type art for the characters cause you lose alot of subtle and distinct emotion in the faces. Speciall since even though running and idleing actions looked extremely realistic and adult conversation is 60% of the body. That still leaves a nice 40% gap lost (I think was lost in ALOT of scenes anyhow) or not to much attention done to in the movie.
I have to disagree because I thought the range of emotions and actions shown were adequate; and I didn't even notice a deficit in quality as you claimed. Another scene I must mention that shows VERY subtle use of motion capture...

Spoiler:


However, you are right in saying that for FACIAL expression, perhaps the expressions in Appleseed could have been much richer under masterful hands. But also, I think you are overestimating the abilities of traditional animation and animators, not MANY animation studios have the ability to convey rich and subtle emotions. Studio Ghibli did a magnificent job in Whisper of the Heart, in the "music" scene, but most animation features I've watched don't really display an amazing range of emotion through the animation. In this aspect, I think Appleseed is comparable. It might pale against the very best of Studio Ghibli, but against other animation features, I think it still somewhat manages.

But I don't disagree with you that there could be much improvement. AND if you didn't notice, the initial screenshots of Appleseed are RADICALLY different from the current Appleseed. Because of improvements in technology and, I'm guessing, their mastering of the software, they managed to buff up Appleseed. So I think you're being far too hasty in condemning the use of cel-shading, it's still a VERY young art. With enough practice and, eventually, enough artists in the industry who have mastery over 3D animation, I believe we will see amazing future improvements. 3D animation has only just begun.

btw. I <3 Deunan.

(after watching some key scenes again I've determined that there are MANY parts where facial emotion is fantastic. But also characters who have stiff facial expressions; this is probably due to the amount of effort they put. For example, Deunan has great facial emotions, but not Athena. Still, shows that cel-shading can work, and DOES work in Appleseed.)

Last edited by arias; 2004-12-07 at 20:30.
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Old 2004-12-07, 20:19   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
Sorry for separate post, but anyways, thanks alot TronDD.

I'm hoping to see more Deunan/Briareos
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Old 2004-12-07, 21:20   Link #87
Mephisto03
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Well for one, My major in college was Computer Animation which I just graduated from a few months back. And also got work with some exremely talented people from companies such as ILM, Disney, Dreamworks etc etc. Currently working on a short film and also a PC fighting game. Trust me when I say this. Theres ALOT of emotion lost in the facial expressions. ALOT! I rewatched the beginning shootout scene and was able to point out about a dozen shots where they chose blank stares instead of honest critical type thinking action facial poses. Also one thing is the HEAVILY realied on mocap, which is awesome. The characters are extremely believable in human motion spots. When shes running from the tank and you see it in night vision, looks like a real person running its amazing. There only fault I see is they picked there facial animation as a mocap shortcut also. And even though there is mocap cleanup which I have done before and it isn't fun one bit. I feel they really didn't do there full potential by doing what animators are suppose to do and exxagerate everything cause as people subtle movements are common place and even facial expressions and emotions get overlooked since we see it every single day and they just didn't hit some right spots with the cg characters. Do they still look good? Absolutly. could they have done alot better by doing more work behind traditional animation methods like key animation, I'll have to highly think so.
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Old 2004-12-10, 14:10   Link #88
Shay
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Ok. I have just watched appleseed (Subbed/illegally downloaded) and even though It left me questioning some of the translation it was a most excellent movie.

Only complaints I have are not enough action! I mean the part when Briareos saves Deunan from those cyborg laser-wire users was awesome! The music comes in "I will die for you" and then that breath taking piece of animation when he punches right through the cyborg, oh my that was great.

Anyway yeah, some more of that would have been nice.
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Old 2004-12-13, 10:29   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shay
Ok. I have just watched appleseed (Subbed/illegally downloaded) and even though It left me questioning some of the translation it was a most excellent movie.

Only complaints I have are not enough action! I mean the part when Briareos saves Deunan from those cyborg laser-wire users was awesome! The music comes in "I will die for you" and then that breath taking piece of animation when he punches right through the cyborg, oh my that was great.

Anyway yeah, some more of that would have been nice.
The scene you describe was a merger of at least two longer and more complex action sequences from the manga. The first being a faked hostage situation in Volume 3 where Deunan shoots a 'borg to distract/disable him while Briareos knocks off his head and takes over his communication devices. The second 'borg, busy setting up a trap of claymores, is lured out by her partner's voice under Briareos control. She's distracted just long enough for Briareos to punch through her mid-section, and Deunan then shoots one of the claymores which finish her off completely. The second is the climax of a chase scene in the unfinished Appleseed volume 5 (published as Hypernotes). A female cyborg uses her ultra frequency vibro-whips to chop up half a swat assault team and then the freighter that ESWAT is assaulting. After several decoys nearly allow her to escape, the female 'borg is damaged by Deunan (flying a Guges-D) and Briareos on shore. The climax of the battle sees the female 'borg -- who has completely lost three limbs and a hand -- slicing herself to bits rather than being captured.

As a fan, I would love to see Shirow's actions sequences on the screen intact (like the infamous short-sword fight near the end of volume 4) because his combat is so intricate, detailed, and fresh. The complete-feeling worlds that Shirow weaves in his manga lend credibility to the often amazing and unexpected things Shirow pens into his action scenes.

If you've read the Appleseed manga, you'll know that there's a lot of dialogue (character building, obscure references, politics, philosophy, technical explanations, side-notes, etc.) between the combat scenes. The story telling of this sci-fi police drama is very unconventional and unfolds in a way that is closer to reality than the tight plot of a film.

Having said that, I think the balance of action and dialogue in the film was fine. The manga story was already changed and watered down so much that removing more of the film's "down time" (where we get to understand the characters and why they think the way they do) would have resulted in a series of loosely strung together action scenes that you'd have a hard time calling Appleseed (even more so than now).

Cut out more exposition and you'd have more problems like the spider gun platforms appearing out of the blue at the end of the film. In the manga we knew why the platforms were there, what their job was, and witnessed a multi-page debate about how and if they should be deployed and who or what (GAIA) should control them. In the film, the council just summons them at the cost of their lives, without the slightest bit of foreshadowing that these things even exist.

I agree that the Appleseed film is a great -- if mentally deficient -- piece of entertainment. The budding technology used to create the new "digital-anime" look is fantastic, and I can't wait to see how far they manage to evolve it.

As a stand-alone work, Appleseed and the next two films will be great action films with quite cliché plots. As a film version of the manga, the Appleseed films will very likely be a disappointment for fans.
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Old 2004-12-13, 18:16   Link #90
TronDD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briareos
As a stand-alone work, Appleseed and the next two films will be great action films with quite cliché plots. As a film version of the manga, the Appleseed films will very likely be a disappointment for fans.[/font]
That's about how I see it. I'm not an action fan, though, so it looses some extra points with me.

I wish, during Deunan's training where she starts with the knife and takes out 10 guys in 16 minutes (or whatever the details were) included the goofy signs she made them wear in the manga.

Wasn't Briareos supposed to be black when he had his human body?
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Old 2004-12-13, 19:06   Link #91
mooncanvas
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Hi, I thought Appleseed was great. It's by far the most true to Shirow's work. I downloaded a copy with english subtitles (that was translated from chinese subs), and looked through the subs but couldn't follow it very well. So.... I've went through and re-subbed it. I thought the movie was so awesome, the sub did not do it justice. Um, this is my first time subbing, so I'm not quite sure what to do next. I thought maybe I could show it to people here. If you think it's worth sharing around, then I'll look into how I can post it properly.

EDIT: You can now download from Divxstation - the one by beechan
Please let me know what you think!

Last edited by mooncanvas; 2004-12-15 at 08:39.
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Old 2004-12-13, 19:40   Link #92
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooncanvas
Hi, I thought Appleseed was great. It's by far the most true to Shirow's work. I downloaded a copy with english subs (that was translated from chinese subs), and looked through the subs but couldn't follow it very well. So.... I've went through and re-subbed it. I thought the movie was so awesome, the sub did not do it justice. Um, this is my first time subbing, so I'm not quite sure what to do next. I thought maybe I could show it to people here. If you think it's worth sharing around, then I'll look into how I can post it properly.

Please note: I'm not fluent in Japanese (don't pick on me)! So instead of trying to strictly follow the dialogue, I've gone for lines which I thought would suit the story. I've used the manga as a guide and researched as much as I could, but still.... it's possible I've bent the story somewhat. But I truly hope it would make the viewing experience more enjoyable.

Download here:
http://www.mooncanvas.com/Appleseed_...ub_beechan.zip

Please let me know what you think!
Heh.. I thought all the subs were poor too.

I'll read your subs after my exams, and give you feedback later.
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Old 2004-12-14, 03:52   Link #93
mooncanvas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
I'll read your subs after my exams, and give you feedback later.
Thanks, just download it when you're ready, as I'm still making little changes here and there.
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Old 2004-12-14, 08:17   Link #94
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The motion capture itself was well done, but I have to agree that I found the facial animation and the eyes in particular (from both a modelling and animation stand-point) lacking. It is true that the used some facial motion capture, but I think that was mainly for lip-syncing purposes.
Music was a bit "wannabe-hollywoody-sappy", would've preferred Kenji Kawaii or Yoko Kanno.
But the rest of the film: Awesome. The war-torn cities, the mechanical designs, the spider guns...
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Last edited by [maven]; 2004-12-15 at 09:14. Reason: warn != war
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Old 2004-12-14, 19:09   Link #95
Mephisto03
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Originally Posted by [maven]
The motion capture itself was well done, but I have to agree that I found the facial animation and the eyes in particular (from both a modelling and animation stand-point) lacking. It is true that the used some facial motion capture, but I think that was mainly for lip-syncing purposes.
Music was a bit "wannabe-hollywoody-sappy", would've preferred Kenji Kawaii or Yoko Kanno.
But the rest of the film: Awesome. The warn-torn cities, the mechanical designs, the spider guns...
It was mostly for lip-synching but they had about 20 dots on there face taking information for a full frontal expression.
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Old 2004-12-15, 20:09   Link #96
mooncanvas
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Appleseed 2004 subtitles

*Whew* Finally finished a version of the subtitles that I'm happy with.

I saw a new subtitles english translation by p_r_u_t_s_e_r, which seems to follow the Japanese dialogue very well.

So I have gone back and rewrote my subtitles again.
http://www.mooncanvas.com/archive/appleseed/

I understood so much more about the story after reading p_r_u_t_s_e_r's translation. I have to say that after going through the anime so many times, I am not bored of the story. In fact, the more I watch, the more I get out of it. I believe this is a trait of a truly great anime. I can't wait for the 2005 english release

Oh yes, and again, any feedback is welcome!
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Old 2004-12-16, 09:54   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooncanvas
*Whew* Finally finished a version of the subtitles that I'm happy with.

I saw a new subtitles english translation by p_r_u_t_s_e_r, which seems to follow the Japanese dialogue very well.

So I have gone back and rewrote my subtitles again.
http://www.mooncanvas.com/archive/appleseed/
Just make sure you don't make the mistake of calling Athena's assistant director "Nicole" instead of Nike! (Sheesh, is it so hard to check the official page for character descriptions and names? I think it was Prutser who made this error. It bugged me so much I edited the subs myself. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooncanvas
I understood so much more about the story after reading p_r_u_t_s_e_r's translation. I have to say that after going through the anime so many times, I am not bored of the story. In fact, the more I watch, the more I get out of it. I believe this is a trait of a truly great anime. I can't wait for the 2005 english release
I can't wait for the English release either.

Wow, if you're getting a lot out of rewatching this simplified and changed version of the story, you should really give the manga a few more reads. I've read the manga so many times that I find the film version very simplistic and easy to follow. The film makes everything so simple and black and white, while the manga explores similar issues with such depth that even Deunan isn't sure if she should act to save humanity (in its current form) in Volume 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooncanvas
I thought Appleseed was great. It's by far the most true to Shirow's work.
Aside from Dominion Tank Police and Black Magic M-66, this may be the best that Shirow's design-work has looked in animated form. As far as the story goes, I think that Ghost in the Shell was closer to the source material (in a one-dimensional way) than the Appleseed film is. As is usual for a Shirow based anime, most of the characters, machines and locations in the film are Shirow's, but the plot, philosophy and characterization have been stripped of much of what makes Shirow's non-conventional story-telling good.
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Old 2004-12-16, 16:38   Link #98
mooncanvas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briareos
Just make sure you don't make the mistake of calling Athena's assistant director "Nicole" instead of Nike! (Sheesh, is it so hard to check the official page for character descriptions and names? I think it was Prutser who made this error. It bugged me so much I edited the subs myself. )
It was not Prutser, it was the original chinese->english translation. Both Prutser and icie (whose subs I consider 'good', and have incorporated into my own) have corrected this, as well as many other mistranslations. That's why I strongly recommend people to get a good sub.

While I see the rest of your point, but I don't see how you could really understand where I'm coming from if you haven't checked out my subs. There are MANY subtleties in the anime story that has been lost due to the crude original subtitles. One example is the integrity of ALL the characters, with the possible exception of one.
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Old 2004-12-17, 09:15   Link #99
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I don't have the courage to read all the previous posts right now, but as I've finally seen it, I'll post my opinion. Just to set things up, I've read both Apple Seed and Ghost in the Shell (French edition) and I've always been a big fan of apple seed ever since the first volume was issued in France which must have been something like at least 10 years ago.
Well, let's start off with the graphical part. I though the scenry, vehicules and overall animation was really well done, especially the combat scenes. However, I really didn't like the chara design much, especailly Dunan and Hitomi. And the charachter's animation, felt kind of weird at times too, especially when standing still or walking. I couldn't put my finger on exaclty what felt weird, but they had a kind of gait that didn't seem natural.
As for the story, I was in turns, surprised, nostalgic and annoyed. The overall story is made by connecting small unrelated scenes of the manga and modifiying/assembling them to make a new plot. I'd say that this new plot was, overall, quite good. However, it really suffered from certain scenes that felt really mushy and cliche and didn't fit well in my vision of apple seed. There were also surprises aplenty for readers of the manga which usully led to rather good story development, although some of the modifications where not for my taste:
Spoiler:


Well overall, I must say I had a good time and it was quite a pleasant movie to watch.
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Old 2004-12-18, 14:15   Link #100
Tazer
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Yo.

I just got a copy of Appleseed myself, but Im having problems with the audio portion of the rip: it didnt come thru except (formerly) as a high-pitched screech and now (since Ive updated to the latest Divx, FFDShow and Audigy drivers) I get nothing sound wise.

the video plays fine, but I cant enjoy it w/o sound.....any clues/tips?
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