AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-11-15, 10:07   Link #2461
ZeroXSEED
I am no one
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inside your head
Do note that 76mm APSV from CGUE leave a lot of dents on strike

PS armor seems to be better at tanking lots of weaker hits than concentrated impact/heat energy, and Trans-phase Armor is developed with reverse logic.

Also, whoever win between Big Zam and Destroy, the city is lost and the terrain is bust.
__________________
Was it rape?
ZeroXSEED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-15, 10:59   Link #2462
Soaring Griffin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Since the Big Zam has an operation time of only 20 minutes, I'd give it to the Destroy, just from it out lasting the Big Zam.
Soaring Griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-19, 23:20   Link #2463
Solidus Shockryn
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192 View Post
never mind......I'm done.
IN other words, I can't argue my point anymore I'm goin home.

Maybe it's because I hated Shinn Asuka, I mean hell a young angsty teenager with thats overly emotional because of the death of his family.

Toooootally never heard that one before.
He was pretty much that annoying, angsty, petulant brat.

But that's beside the point.

I really find it difficult to take you seriously, first you say Shinn is a better pilot than Athrun, despite the fact that Athrun pretty much beat up Shinn 2 times out of three and later you say Char is the least skilled of the Zeon Ace Pilots?

You know I could possibly understand the argument that Shinn may be better than athrun.

but you're centering your argument around the fact that the IJ gundam is better at CQB than the Destiny gundam, while I was never a fan of the Destiny gundam, it was pretty much Launcher strike+sword strike+angel wings.

The fact that you're saying Athrun's gundam was better because it has more swords.

now think back in real life medieval europe, you do know there's a good reason why very few real life sword fighters use more than one sword right?

1 sword has always proven to be more effective and easier to use than dual wielding, even if weight wasn't an issue you'd still be impacting the target with only half the effective force of a dual handed grip.

In essence the Destiny's sword is a large long sword that is wielded with both hands, this is a very effective combat style as evidenced by how favored it was by medieval knights.

However, only someone who is incredibly skilled can dual wield.

So you're saying Athrun only won because he uses a superior gundam that can use two beam sabers, but realistically this wouldn't make sense either way.

Dual wielding needs both ambidexterity and the ability to multitask or pre plan your slashes, unlike a two grip, a two handed grip in most situations will always be more effective than dual wielding, because you only need to focus on one point of impact, it's alot easier to use as well.

Dual wielding on the other hand causes a person's focus to drift between two weapons planning out how to use each blade, while this seems simple I assure you in the heat of battle you are easilly putting your brain through twice the mental strain to make the most use of both swords.

And the IJ gundam has four blades, 2 beam sabers and 2 leg blades, that's easilly 4 times the amount mental thought that goes into each attack, even more so because most people aren't good at attacking with legs especially in the heat of combat.

IJ maybe better than the destiny, but it is a shit tonne harder to use.

but Athrun knows how to use it, why? because he piloted the Aegis gundam, a gundam amongst all the original GAT gundams made by OMNI, the Aegis is the most unconventional and the most difficult to use, just like the IJ gundam.

I really wish there was a way to go more in detail as to why, having more sabers does not automatically mean you can beat up an opponent using one big sword but to be honest this stuff is pretty obvious, honestly if you don't see how dual wielding much more difficult dual wielding is compared to single wielding is, then there's really no point trying to explain it.

Last edited by Solidus Shockryn; 2013-11-21 at 01:53.
Solidus Shockryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-19, 23:26   Link #2464
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Dude, you're not accomplishing anything by trying to revive long-dead debates from over 50 pages back.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-19, 23:36   Link #2465
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
Ping!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Albany
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via MSN to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via Yahoo to RX-78GP04G Gerbera
reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeutralZero View Post
minor missile do almost zero damage to PS but it also drain energy... so it really is wise and more convenient to dodge... there's also the smoke caused by explosion as said by Aurelis...
in the stabbing department, if the force applied to the knife is far greater to the force applied by the ps armor then it will go trough the ps armor...

If we are to pit all the Giant mechs from the Gundam series, who would win?
From Big Zam, Apsalas 3, psycho gundam... destroy etc...
It would depend on the setting too given, obviously, some giant MS and MAs can only operate on the ground or in space.

I'd say one favorite would be the Quin Mantha/Queen Mansa of ZZ. Essentially the power of the Qubeley and the Psyco Gundam Mark II, but even stronger (and the only mobile weapon to have a reflective I-Field).

The Rafflesia of F91 is also up there with its abundance of strong beam weapons and its chainsaw-tipped whips for being able to fight at various ranges coupled with an anti-beam barrier.

Big Zam would get wiped out pretty quickly by any of the later giant MS/MAs given it has extremely low speed and mobility (much more of a mobile fortress). One could say the Neue Ziel is a Big Zam that more than makes up for that.

Apsalus I / II / III wouldn't last all that long either (against latter mobile weapons) considering its only weapon is its large mega particle cannon (it was made for the sole purpose of hitting Jaburo through its defenses after all). Otherwise, it has no defensive measures and it really requires itself to remain anchored (or in stable flight) to be able to fire its mega particle cannon.

And would you want EVERY giant MS and MA involved, or just "official" ones? (As in ones that showed up in official animated works.)

Otherwise, the Zodiac of Gundam Sentinel is pretty high on the list.
__________________
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
RX-78GP04G Gerbera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-19, 23:53   Link #2466
Solidus Shockryn
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Thinking about it, I think I do have some proof that Gundanium is not as strong as every Gundam Wing Fan may think it is.

Now allow me to elaborate, is Gundanium strong? oh most definitely, but it's in no way comparable to Phase Shift Armor.

This is definitive proof that we can tell that gundanium is weaker than displayed simply by explaining that the weapons in Gundam Wing are very very weak.

Now I call to evidence the stats of two well known Grunt units.

the GM, or in this case the GM Ground type, and the Leo.

GM Ground types are reportedly = 53.8 metric tons to 66.0 metric tons
as well as standing 18 meters tall

Leos however at a staggering 7 metric tons.
standing 16.7 meters tall

So what does that have to do with Gundanium or weapon strength?


Well these two units have one thing in common, based on sources
Both are powered by Ultra Compact Fusion Reactors and also both are made of titanium

Now I can point out the density of titanium per meter or per metric ton but I don't need to

even at it's lightest the GM Ground type is easily 7 times heavier than the Leo.

Now admittedly this is accounting for weight of mechanisms, but no matter how you slice it, it is very clear the GMs are roughly say 4-5 times more durable than a Leo.

So how does this fit in to the weapons?

Throughout history we usually design weapons based on what they're supposed to overcome.

For example, the British Boys Anti Tank Rifle designed to cripple tanks on the level of say the sherman, because tanks of that class was the only tank they are familiar with, so when they designed anti-tank weapons, they based all of their weapons on destroying tanks like Shermans.

So when the German Tiger tank rolled onto the battle field, all of these anti tank weapons proved useless against it, because the German Tiger was easily many times tougher than the tank that those anti tank weapons were designed to take down.

You see where I'm getting at?

It's simple.

The Anime is not a good reference for talking about how tough gundanium armor is, keep in it's usually main characters using MS with Gundanium armor, so keep in mind that realism of the anime is also stretched slightly in their favor.

So let's say this, Gundanium is not as tough as you think it is because the weapons that were used against it is very poor at dealing damage, because these weapons were designed to take down mobile suits like Leos, which are about as tough as Tin foil by comparison.

Keeping in mind GMs are also slaughtered by the thousands and we can see based on that information that UC weapons are generally many many MANY times stronger than the Gundam Wing Timeline's weapons.

That is all I have to say, keeping in mind that gundams in Gundam wing are also about as light as Leos you also have to keep that in mind, Gundanium may be tough.

But to me atleast, it only means that the gundams in Gundam Wing can atleast stand up to some punishment from other timeline mobile suits, because otherwise they'll be about as fragile as gram crackers by comparison.
Solidus Shockryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-20, 00:03   Link #2467
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
Ping!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Albany
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via MSN to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via Yahoo to RX-78GP04G Gerbera
reply

There's also the fact that, when the Leo was made, there was really NO other force out there that would be able to fight them as OZ was the only organization that had Mobile Suits. Everyone else was stuck using regular tanks and older style weaponry that just wasn't that effective against them, so there was no need to make them have very thick armor or very substantial weapons meant to take down heavy armor.
__________________
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
RX-78GP04G Gerbera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-20, 07:41   Link #2468
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidus Shockryn View Post
1 sword has always proven to be more effective and easier to use than dual wielding, even if weight wasn't an issue you'd still be impacting the target with only half the effective force of a dual handed grip.
I could see the concentration issue, but I don't think weight/force would be much of an issue with beam sabers. In fact, the beam sabers' lighter weight would probably increase the speed of the Infinite Justice's swing in comparison to the Destiny's swing when holding its sword.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Dude, you're not accomplishing anything by trying to revive long-dead debates from over 50 pages back.
Oh, he/she accomplished at least one thing: made me lose 4+ hours being engrossed in rereading past discussions.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-20, 09:07   Link #2469
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Oh, he/she accomplished at least one thing: made me lose 4+ hours being engrossed in rereading past discussions.
I think that's more the fault of those who took the bait than his/her real accomplishment.

And spending 4+ hours just to reread age-old past forum discussion? Wow
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-20, 09:12   Link #2470
CBredbeard
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
I'm inclined to think that UC Gundam lucked out when God wrote the physics for their setting. Seed's magical science isn't anywhere near as good.
CBredbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-20, 09:36   Link #2471
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I think that's more the fault of those who took the bait than his/her real accomplishment.

And spending 4+ hours just to reread age-old past forum discussion? Wow
What can I say, I've enjoyed reading plenty of posts in this forum over the years, and it's fun to read some of them again.

And what a coincidence, with Build Fighters airing right now. One matchup I want to see (in Build Fighters?): Blitz(-based) mobile suit vs Deathscythe (TV version)(-based) mobile suit.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-20, 10:01   Link #2472
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
I'm inclined to think that UC Gundam lucked out when God wrote the physics for their setting.
Don't forget that UC also has this magic thingy called "psychommu system" which (over the course of a few series & movies) seems to be able to do anything.

I'm a UC fan too, but I still admit that "magical" part of the show .
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-21, 01:44   Link #2473
Solidus Shockryn
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Dude, you're not accomplishing anything by trying to revive long-dead debates from over 50 pages back.
Well I did make you reply to this thread about long dead debate about 50 pages back.

So yes I did accomplish something, not anything substantial, but I did accomplish something, besides, I don't see what the problem is.

it's just a little bit of fun discussion, besides I never once saw someone bring out the point that dual wielding is easily more difficult than single wielding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
What can I say, I've enjoyed reading plenty of posts in this forum over the years, and it's fun to read some of them again.

And what a coincidence, with Build Fighters airing right now. One matchup I want to see (in Build Fighters?): Blitz(-based) mobile suit vs Deathscythe (TV version)(-based) mobile suit.
then if you enjoyed it, then it wasn't a waste of 4 hours, those 4 hours got you enjoyment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
I could see the concentration issue, but I don't think weight/force would be much of an issue with beam sabers. In fact, the beam sabers' lighter weight would probably increase the speed of the Infinite Justice's swing in comparison to the Destiny's swing when holding its sword. Oh, he/she accomplished at least one thing: made me lose 4+ hours being engrossed in rereading past discussions.
I never brought the discussion of weight, all I said that the force applied with dual wield single grip is halved compared to a dual handed grip.

because you're using one hand.

Meanwhile the AS sword has more force behind it's strike, considering it's got a combination of dual handed grip and weight.

Of course force of impact doesn't mean anything if you can't hit anything.

But the point still stands, it takes someone with a combination of ambidexterity and multitasking to dual wield sabers let alone quadruple wield considering the Justice's beam saber kick.

speaking of which, once again the kick is something you normally would never do in a fight, because it is difficult to pull off and use effectively in the middle of a fight, only skilled martial artists have been able to effectively utilise kicks in CQB.

once again, proof that Athrun's unconventional style of combat is more effective but also requires alot more skill than Shinn Asuka's more conventional combat style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
There's also the fact that, when the Leo was made, there was really NO other force out there that would be able to fight them as OZ was the only organization that had Mobile Suits. Everyone else was stuck using regular tanks and older style weaponry that just wasn't that effective against them, so there was no need to make them have very thick armor or very substantial weapons meant to take down heavy armor.
True, but that still doesn't change the fact that Leo's are about as tough as gram crackers compared to almost every other timeline's Mobile Suit, outside the Correll.

So I say, arguing that the Gundam Wing Gundams have Gundanium armor is a moot point, since without said gundanium armor they would be as fragile as a correll.

Gundanium only allows Gundam Wing Gundams to stand a fighting chance against other timeline gundams, it doesn't make them super impervious, and it is by no means comparable to Phase Shift Armor, if Gundanium was on a heavier MS only then can it be comparable, because the increase weight would imply an increased density in the armor.
Solidus Shockryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-21, 02:09   Link #2474
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
Ping!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Albany
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via MSN to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via Yahoo to RX-78GP04G Gerbera
reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidus Shockryn View Post
True, but that still doesn't change the fact that Leo's are about as tough as gram crackers compared to almost every other timeline's Mobile Suit, outside the Correll.

So I say, arguing that the Gundam Wing Gundams have Gundanium armor is a moot point, since without said gundanium armor they would be as fragile as a correll.

Gundanium only allows Gundam Wing Gundams to stand a fighting chance against other timeline gundams, it doesn't make them super impervious, and it is by no means comparable to Phase Shift Armor, if Gundanium was on a heavier MS only then can it be comparable, because the increase weight would imply an increased density in the armor.
At least until any of the main characters pilot them, lol.

Then, Leos and any other lower-end MS are suddenly nearly as durable as high-end MS. Even if the main character pilots don't "win" using them, they still seem to be able to take massive amounts of hits that usually would've otherwise destroyed the Leo 100 times over at the hands of the main character pilot, lol. Like in Endless Waltz, Duo's Leo just got showered with gatling gun rounds from Trowa in the Serpent when, if it were any other random, nameless grunt, the Leo would've probably just blown up after a few of those rounds hit.

And armor quality seems to lose its meaning as the series goes on. It's only so tough and durable when it's new (or at least noted more often), earlier in the series. As technology catches up and either enemy forces develop better weaponry against them and/or other forces get the same type of armor, the qualities that initially made the armor so special aren't all that special anymore. Though, I still put a bit of blame on main character plot armor.

Like the Virgo and Virgo II were made of Gundanium, but got sliced up as easily as any grunt MS.

With SEED, Phase Shift Armor was only so effective early on, when many MS and other mobile weapons were still using conventional weapons. As the series went on and more MS were being mass produced with beam weapons (like the Daggers, GuAIZ, and such) or much stronger kinetic weaponry, Phase Shift Armor toughness suddenly doesn't come off as so powerful anymore. Still strong, but not nigh-invulnerable like early on made it feel like.

Even MSG was like that, with Gundarium armor being pretty tough early on, but not SO much so when encountering more MS with beam weapons, or bigger/stronger conventional weapons like the giant bazooka, and whatnot.
__________________
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
RX-78GP04G Gerbera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-21, 05:28   Link #2475
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidus Shockryn View Post
I never brought the discussion of weight, all I said that the force applied with dual wield single grip is halved compared to a dual handed grip.

because you're using one hand.

Meanwhile the AS sword has more force behind it's strike, considering it's got a combination of dual handed grip and weight.
My point is that the difference in force is unlikely to matter due to the Infinite Justice using beam sabers.
Quote:
Of course force of impact doesn't mean anything if you can't hit anything.
And that is where a beam saber has the advantage as it is smaller and lighter.
Quote:
But the point still stands, it takes someone with a combination of ambidexterity and multitasking to dual wield sabers let alone quadruple wield considering the Justice's beam saber kick.
Maybe so, but Athrun likes to combine his sabers anyway. He rarely dual wields them.
Quote:
speaking of which, once again the kick is something you normally would never do in a fight, because it is difficult to pull off and use effectively in the middle of a fight, only skilled martial artists have been able to effectively utilise kicks in CQB.

once again, proof that Athrun's unconventional style of combat is more effective but also requires alot more skill than Shinn Asuka's more conventional combat style.
I don't know. I believe Athrun only used the Infinite Justice's leg saber once against Shinn at the final battle. By that point, I'd say Shinn was too overcome with rage to think straight.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-21, 08:07   Link #2476
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
I don't know. I believe Athrun only used the Infinite Justice's leg saber once against Shinn at the final battle. By that point, I'd say Shinn was too overcome with rage to think straight.
If it's about "kicking with Gundams", Athrun already did quite a number of kicking when he's still piloting Justice. Most often than not, Forbidden was at the receiving end .
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-21, 08:40   Link #2477
kakakka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
ASS has the advantage of weight and force, I think. It's more effective in dealing thicker armour, which usually, or should be, given to ships. It has the same heat power as beam sabers, but in a duel, the one using the beam saber(s), with only one hand/arm should have the disadvantage, since the arm is dealing with more strain when in receiving end of bigger force added by ASS weight. But it is kinda moot anyways, since MS arms seemed to take so much during such encounters and only snaps or breaks when the plot calls it to.

*Well, all this considering beams from the sabers are indestructible.

Last edited by kakakka; 2013-11-21 at 08:52.
kakakka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-21, 15:36   Link #2478
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
Ping!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Albany
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via MSN to RX-78GP04G Gerbera Send a message via Yahoo to RX-78GP04G Gerbera
reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
If it's about "kicking with Gundams", Athrun already did quite a number of kicking when he's still piloting Justice. Most often than not, Forbidden was at the receiving end .
He also kicked the Strike (forget if it was just the shield or the whole arm that was taken off) when piloting the Aegis in their final bout.
__________________
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
RX-78GP04G Gerbera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-21, 15:44   Link #2479
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
That took off the whole arm.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-21, 16:57   Link #2480
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
He also kicked the Strike (forget if it was just the shield or the whole arm that was taken off) when piloting the Aegis in their final bout.
I forgot to mention that coz "Justice Kiiiiick!!" simply looks more impressive to me . It reminds me of Kamen Riders's "Rider Kiiiiick!" .
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.