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Old 2006-07-08, 23:12   Link #81
checkers
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So far there have only been a few dialup users weighing in with their opinions. I'd be very interested to hear some dialup user's opinions about the 25mb h264 file I uploaded. Would you be happy with such quality?
I've also done some experimentation with 50mb files, which look significantly better. I think smaller files are something that should be looked into, but the opinions of dialup users are very important.
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Old 2006-07-09, 00:07   Link #82
NezoR
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Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelesAurivern
And viewers these days have a higher incidence of rabies infections; too much barking at the charitable hands that feed them
And fansubbers these days have a higher incidence of rabies infections; too much time barking at the viewers who criticize them. Everything and anything that is done (whether it is done well or not) has its critics and detractors. If you can't take criticism, then STOP FANSUBBING. Many fansubbers are just as arrogant and annoying as their viewers.
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Old 2006-07-09, 00:14   Link #83
aperson
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I'm not on dialup but if I was then, if that is all people are looking for, their standards are quite low.
If I had to watch the entire series like this, I would probably just read manga.
Manga chapters are smaller in size, (usually) have more detailed pictures and dialogue. The downside is that they are (usually) only in black and white and have no audio.

A 25mb video is still big compared to a 3mb manga chapter (just picked a random manga chapter from my collection, doesn't reflect everything but it gives a general idea).
Manga to anime adaptation is something like ~4 chapters per episode so to compare to the manga size, that 25mb vid would have to be compressed to half its size.

No matter how much a file is compressed using either h264 or rmvb, if I was on dialup, I would choose a more suitable pastime.

Anyways, it could just be the source but, that 25mb file looked about the same quality as a 50mb rm file I watched.
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Old 2006-07-09, 02:47   Link #84
Daniel E.
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I have Dial-up, and to download the average 175 Mb episode my connection needs something like 6 or 8 hours to do so. If you include some seeding, that amounts to something like 12-13 hours in total for a single episode, wich translates to being able to (almost) download two episodes a day.

This may seem like the suck for people on broadband, but it sure is enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by checkers
So far there have only been a few dialup users weighing in with their opinions. I'd be very interested to hear some dialup user's opinions about the 25mb h264 file I uploaded. Would you be happy with such quality?
Sorry, but No !!!

EDIT: Mind you, it's actually pretty amazing as it is. But if I have the chance, I always try to go for the better versions available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson
No matter how much a file is compressed using either h264 or rmvb, if I was on dialup, I would choose a more suitable pastime.
I am currently following seven shows and I never miss an episode before the next one arrives. I think I am gonna stick with anime for a little while longer.

Ohh, and just for the record:

Average Download: 9 - 11 kB/s
Average Upload: 5 kB/s
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2006-07-09 at 03:50.
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Old 2006-07-09, 09:17   Link #85
LytHka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson
What did fansubbers want people to get aquainted with?
The Japanese culture? Then sub regular Japanese TV.
The stories? There are many non-anime shows and they have some pretty good stories as well.
The animation style? Then the end user should see the show in the way it was intended to be seen, without any artifacts (or as little as possible) and with clear audio.
Just to be brief on this offtopic: Contrary to your belief, anime fansubs aren't there to promote Japanese culture, but they're trying to promote anime; they may be subsequently promoting Japanese culture and lifestyle. J-doramas and Japanese TV are completely different media materials than anime, thus they have their own fans. If you started with anime and ended watching j-doramas, well, that's your problem and certainly not of anime fansubbers.
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Old 2006-07-09, 10:06   Link #86
aperson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LytHka
Just to be brief on this offtopic: Contrary to your belief, anime fansubs aren't there to promote Japanese culture, but they're trying to promote anime; they may be subsequently promoting Japanese culture and lifestyle. J-doramas and Japanese TV are completely different media materials than anime, thus they have their own fans. If you started with anime and ended watching j-doramas, well, that's your problem and certainly not of anime fansubbers.
More brief and offtopic: I never said that was my belief, I just posed hypothetical questions. If fansubs are there to promote anime, what exactly is anime other than its unique animation? If someone ultra-compresses an anime episode, doesn't that just take away the essence of anime, its animation?

To pose another question to dialups:
Do you have a computer that can handle h264?
If so, given the choice would you download the h264 or XviD version (h264 being larger but better quality)?

And all this talk about RMVB is only about its ultra-compression. How about someone try encoding a full-size anime episode since Real's website says "Same quality at 15% lower bitrate than H.264"?
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Old 2006-07-09, 10:20   Link #87
LytHka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson
To pose another question to dialups:
Do you have a computer that can handle h264?
If so, given the choice would you download the h264 or XviD version (h264 being larger but better quality)?
For H.264, it would usually be same or lower size and better quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson
And all this talk about RMVB is only about its ultra-compression. How about someone try encoding a full-size anime episode since Real's website says "Same quality at 15% lower bitrate than H.264"?
"All this talk about RMVB" is actually only comparing the habits of Chinese and English fansubbers. H.264 is clearly superior in its compression values and detail retention with small filesized encodes.
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Old 2006-07-09, 10:32   Link #88
ender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LytHka
For H.264, it would usually be same or lower size and better quality.
Not necessarily, many groups release "standard" XviD version, and (often larger in size) h264 version, but which is from HDTV source.
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Old 2006-07-09, 10:36   Link #89
LytHka
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Of course, but it is quite logical that if you have the same source, that you go for same or lower filesize with a superior encoder.
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Old 2006-07-09, 10:36   Link #90
Commander 598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E.
Ohh, and just for the record:

Average Download: 9 - 11 kB/s
Average Upload: 5 kB/s
You sure thats dialup? The closest i've come is 5 kb/s for downloads. That would be maybe a day, if I get a constant speed and can stay on for a day... Haven't actually tried it since I got forced back to dial-up.
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Old 2006-07-09, 10:50   Link #91
physics223
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I'm betting that's 128 Kbps. It's theoretically impossible to go beyond 7 kB/s with dial-up, because 56 Kbps = 7KBps. Thus, 7 KB/s is the theoretical maximum, and the throughput is going to be much lower. It also wouldn't probably be 64 Kbps, because it would have a max. of 8 KB/s. I'm guessing that's a 128 Kbps DSL, or maybe ISDN (?) correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 2006-07-09, 11:08   Link #92
Zero1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson
To pose another question to dialups:
Do you have a computer that can handle h264?
If so, given the choice would you download the h264 or XviD version (h264 being larger but better quality)?

And all this talk about RMVB is only about its ultra-compression. How about someone try encoding a full-size anime episode since Real's website says "Same quality at 15% lower bitrate than H.264"?
There is nothing hard and fast that says the H.264 version will be larger than XviD. It can be the same filesize or smaller, and still yield better quality than the XviD version.

As fo Real's website, I call bias bullshit. For starters Real video uses variable frame rate by default (AFAIK), which means you save on filesize without even touching the compression algo. It's what I would call a cheap (yet clever) trick. Also they don't say what they are basing these claims on. Are they talking about 15% lower bitrate than x264, or 15% lower bitrate than a piss poor H.264 encoder? Or are they basing it on an imaginary, theoretical H.264 encoder?

I say they are probably basing this on the reference H.264 encoder, which IIRC is the slowest thing known to man.

As for dial up users, it's impossible to say whether they have decent PCs or not, I mean a friend of mine is on dial up (yes he could get ADSL if he wanted) and he has a P4 2.66GHz, which of course is no A64 X2 or Conroe; but it's sufficient for the purpose we are talking about.
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Old 2006-07-09, 11:29   Link #93
LytHka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
I'm betting that's 128 Kbps. It's theoretically impossible to go beyond 7 kB/s with dial-up, because 56 Kbps = 7KBps. Thus, 7 KB/s is the theoretical maximum, and the throughput is going to be much lower. It also wouldn't probably be 64 Kbps, because it would have a max. of 8 KB/s. I'm guessing that's a 128 Kbps DSL, or maybe ISDN (?) correct me if I'm wrong.
It may be ISDN. At least when it was hot in my country, it was offering 128 kbit/s speeds. ISDN is, for your information, a dial-up connection.
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Old 2006-07-09, 11:30   Link #94
aperson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LytHka
"All this talk about RMVB" is actually only comparing the habits of Chinese and English fansubbers.
This may sound arrogant, but does the English community want to get compared to the Chinese (in all good intentions)?
We do not (mostly) live in the same conditions ($200/month, dialup as stated previously). The size of fansubs should not concern us. I can get a 300GB hd with an external enclosure for ~$150. While it may still seem expensive, for 24 ep series @175mb, that drive can hold ~70 series (@233mb it can hold ~50 series).

While some people still do not have broadband, at least we can leave our computers on overnight to download. And 50mb rmvb is still quite large for dialup, if you're already that dedicated to downloading fansubs then regular fansub sizes should not matter.

If you want to bring anime to dialups that aren't that dedicated then their download time should roughly be the same as broadband. Let's say an average broadband user takes 1hr to download a 175MB episode. To be fair to dialups, they should only spend an hour as well (which is the reason for small encodes, to be fair to dialup). At this rate, an episode should be roughly ~13MB.

You can't exactly bring anime to the household of Joe Average Dialup if they are not dedicated to downloading it.
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Old 2006-07-09, 11:31   Link #95
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
I'm betting that's 128 Kbps. It's theoretically impossible to go beyond 7 kB/s with dial-up, because 56 Kbps = 7KBps. Thus, 7 KB/s is the theoretical maximum, and the throughput is going to be much lower. It also wouldn't probably be 64 Kbps, because it would have a max. of 8 KB/s. I'm guessing that's a 128 Kbps DSL, or maybe ISDN (?) correct me if I'm wrong.
I am totally clueless when it comes to computers. I only know that my connection literally "dialups" a phone number before connecting to the internet.

I hope is OK to say 'dial up'; Not very good with english or the techy stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander 598
You sure thats dialup? The closest i've come is 5 kb/s for downloads. That would be maybe a day, if I get a constant speed and can stay on for a day... Haven't actually tried it since I got forced back to dial-up.
After reading physics223 post, I am not so sure anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson
To pose another question to dialups:
Guess my answers are no longer valid in this regard.
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Old 2006-07-09, 11:44   Link #96
checkers
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There has only been feedback from one person so far, but I think they reflect pretty well what the response to 25mb eps would be: the quality is just too low. So I backed up a bit and moved towards what a lot of the hype about h264 was for, and what has not yet really been delivered - similar quality at a much reduced filesize.

<encoder blabbering>
I encoded the episode again as a "full fansub resolution" (640x368) and with --crf 22, which encodes it at a "constant quality", in this case 22, which is around average/above-average quality. Constant quality encoding means you can't tell what the filesize will be until you finish it, but it's useful when you want to see what filesize a certain quality will require.
</encoder blabbering>

Here is the result. It's just under 45mb and doesn't include subs (I forgot to mux them in ), but feedback on the quality would be much appreciated.

btw daniel e, as far as I'm concerned, you're close enough to dialup to still give important feedback

Last edited by checkers; 2006-07-09 at 12:12.
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Old 2006-07-09, 12:49   Link #97
Kurz
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Wow Nice Quality!
I wonder how the orginal looks like!
Its amazes me why people bother putting h.264 at the same size of Xvid...
Since the increase of quality is not very noticable.

*H.264 really shines in DVD source encoding*
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Old 2006-07-09, 17:38   Link #98
Sides
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Edinburgh
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E.
I am totally clueless when it comes to computers. I only know that my connection literally "dialups" a phone number before connecting to the internet.

I hope is OK to say 'dial up'; Not very good with english or the techy stuff.

After reading physics223 post, I am not so sure anymore.
Just call it narrowband ^^.
Dial-up is normally referred to the situation, when you connect to an
ISP, your phoneline will be blocked.
In case of ISDN you can bundle both 64 kbps lines to get
128 Kbps up and download speed, synchron.
Nevertheless i normally advice people, with dialup, to use IRC/DCC
or usenet (freebin.readnews.com is free and suitable for dial-up connection speeds),
since they're normally charged per minute, when connecting to their ISP.
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Old 2006-07-09, 18:33   Link #99
Farix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
Game companies (think STEAM), software companies (think windowsupdate), and the latest and greatest on the net (youtube and google videos, flikr streams, espn's front page) aren't really catering to dialup anymore. If they aren't, why should we? Fansubs are all about video, and no other video service gives a second thought to dialup users.
It is this kind of "broadband arrogance" that irritates the hell out of me to no end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by checkers
So far there have only been a few dialup users weighing in with their opinions. I'd be very interested to hear some dialup user's opinions about the 25mb h264 file I uploaded. Would you be happy with such quality?
I haven't checked them out yet, though I'm downloading them right now (both your 25MB and 45MB AVC examples).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson
Do you have a computer that can handle h264?
If so, given the choice would you download the h264 or XviD version (h264 being larger but better quality)?
Yes to the first and no to the second. But the thing is, AVC can produce smaller files at the same quality as XviD or better quality for the same file size.

Looking at some of my previous downloads; it takes an average of about 14-16 hours of dedicated downloading for one episode. Longer if I try to do anything else on the connection while downloading at the same time. *shivers* So any help in trimming the number of hours spent downloading helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson
While some people still do not have broadband, at least we can leave our computers on overnight to download. And 50mb rmvb is still quite large for dialup, if you're already that dedicated to downloading fansubs then regular fansub sizes should not matter.
Actually regular fansub size does matter. If file sizes get much larger then the ~176MB standard that exists now, then I may quit downloading fansubs altogether. That's why I'm complaining about the recent trend to larger file sizes with AVC encoding now while it's just beginning, especially considering the capabilities of AVC which should be discouraging this trend.
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Old 2006-07-09, 19:55   Link #100
Zero1
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Back in the days when I was on 56k; I used to get booted after exactly 2 hours. In practice I think my average speed was ~4KB/s, which in theory nets you 14MB in one hour. Based on this, it would seem that 20-25MB would be reasonable if you did intend to target dial up users.
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