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View Poll Results: Suzumiya Haruhi Total Series Rating
Perfect 10 488 56.74%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 237 27.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 58 6.74%
7 out of 10 : Good 44 5.12%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.98%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 0.70%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.12%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.23%
1 out of 10 : Painful 7 0.81%
Voters: 860. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-07-22, 17:54   Link #61
CrowKenobi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredder
Part of what detracts from Haruhi is some of its fans. I've seen concurrence on this point elsewhere. I don't see this kind of zealous devotion to series like School Rumble, and it makes it easier to simply enjoy them. I'm pushed to find faults in this series just to avoid becoming a zealot.
So what you're saying is that if School Rumble was more "popular" and had more "fans" talking about it you would drop it because of that... I take it that you're one of those lost souls who abandons a particular show just because it "becomes popular..." Sad, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredder
For all of this series' supposed merits, it hasn't found the same appreciation as Spirited Away or some other Ghibli flicks and other series. In fact, if Haruhi were uglier, not only would the popularity drop off but also no characters in the show would accept her, seeing as she has few other redeeming traits.
Well, Ghibli flicks aren't adapted from light novels (which are selling like hotcakes in East Asia...whoops! That dreaded "popular" meter is running dangerously high!) serialized in monthly magazines. And you're also implying that ugly people have few redeeming traits... what a shallow form of reasoning! And since your main point seems to be "if it's popular, it sucks!" your arguments don't have any legs to stand on.

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Old 2006-07-22, 18:41   Link #62
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I'm not anti-popular at all. In fact my anti artsy fartsy mentality is very much in favor of mainstream hits. Which is why I can't appreciate 3 min steaks of watching ppl read books for their artistic value vs their mainstream (or lack thereof) appeal. Let's face it, a lot of ppl didn't like ep1. Heater ep had its moments, mainly toward the end, but overall it too was lacking. If BT activity is dropping for this series, then--as I brought up in this or another nearby thread--apparently this series will not in fact stand the test of time very well.

SR's quite popular and I liked it. I thought the popularity was well founded. This, however, is more popular--sort of the it show that has drawn a large bandwagon. And I think ppl too willingly jump/hang on to that bandwagon. I guess once one immerses and devotes oneself to something so wholly, it's hard retaining objectivity, much less turning back.

LH was popular; SR is popular. They're some of my favs. While I'm not anti-mainstream, I am pro-free thinking. Making judgments on one's own, that is. So I'm not strict about my outlook on this series solely to oppose others. I just don't want to get caught up in a herd mentality, making me extra careful in this territory. It's very akin to stock markets and valuation/overvaluation. If BT is dropping, that to me would not appear to be a good sign. It makes me wonder if and when ppl will start to jump ship. Hell, it could be an academic study for some prof who studies anime.
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Old 2006-07-22, 18:47   Link #63
CrowKenobi
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Originally Posted by Shredder
I'm not anti-popular at all. In fact my anti artsy fartsy mentality is very much in favor of mainstream hits. Which is why I can't appreciate 3 min steaks of watching ppl read books for their artistic value vs their mainstream (or lack thereof) appeal. Let's face it, a lot of ppl didn't like ep1. Heater ep had its moments, mainly toward the end, but overall it too was lacking. If BT activity is dropping for this series, then--as I brought up in this or another nearby thread--apparently this series will not in fact stand the test of time very well.

SR's quite popular and I liked it. I thought the popularity was well founded. This, however, is more popular--sort of the it show that has drawn a large bandwagon. And I think ppl too willingly jump/hang on to that bandwagon. I guess once one immerses and devotes oneself to something to wholly, it's hard retaining objectivity, much less turning back.
I'll give you that.

However, in regards to your last sentence: isn't the opposite also true?
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Old 2006-07-22, 18:53   Link #64
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Too many points at which opposite could be applied, even within that one sentence. So I'm not able to infer which point. I'm no Yuki you know ).

Btw I don't indulge much in Western/American TV or cinema. It's why I've joined this place in the past few months. But it's still wildly successful. I may be contradicting myself at some points--it happens during intense talks. I like to think I'll admit to it if called on it.

I guess the only definitive answer as to which camp is right (overrated, under, just right) is that time will tell. I think it's too recent to make judgment calls. However, being only a recently converted fan of anime myself, I don't have historical perspective about what has happened in past situations like this. I do know that markets correct themselves eventually. It did not escape my notice (accurate, unless I'm mistaken) that KGNE for one seems to have cooled with the passing of time.
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Old 2006-07-22, 19:16   Link #65
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredder
I'm not anti-popular at all. In fact my anti artsy fartsy mentality is very much in favor of mainstream hits. Which is why I can't appreciate 3 min steaks of watching ppl read books for their artistic value vs their mainstream (or lack thereof) appeal. Let's face it, a lot of ppl didn't like ep1. Heater ep had its moments, mainly toward the end, but overall it too was lacking. If BT activity is dropping for this series, then--as I brought up in this or another nearby thread--apparently this series will not in fact stand the test of time very well.
Just wondering, have you gone back and watched episode one again, after seeing the rest of the series? You might find your opinion of the episode change after becoming more familiar with the characters. It was really very well done, but if you aren't familiar with things, it's confusing. Whenever I recommend the series, I always explain just what the first episode is.

As for bt activity dropping, of course it did. It does with almost every series. 110k downloads of the first episode? That's almost in naruto/bleach territory. episode 14 still has 51k downloads, a huge number by any normal measure. I think many people downloaded it, then didn't get what they were expecting. Some probably thought episode one was what the show would be like, and were turned off, not realizing it was a "movie" made by the characters. More were probably turned off by the non-linear ordering. Besides, popularity isn't a good indicator of quality. People, in general, like straight foward, linear stories.

Also, if you didn't like the series that much, why'd you give it a 9?
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Old 2006-07-22, 19:22   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356
Just wondering, have you gone back and watched episode one again, after seeing the rest of the series? You might find your opinion of the episode change after becoming more familiar with the characters.
That might be true, but should a good series require multiple viewings to absorb and understand? I guess this is an honest question. After all it's a show, not a puzzle, I figure. Of course all the characters were strangers in the first ep and I had no idea who was who--but this series decided to be different and dump ppl right in. I found it somewhat gimmicky.

I'd say about 8.5 so I rounded in the generous direction. My opinion too could change with time, dunno. With each new series I gain new perspective and often changed perceptions of prior series. LH FTW always though. If Haruhi were ugly or plain and the ED dance were absent, my score may have dropped substantially. Kiss also raised it a lot. Blush could've done more if only it had happened.
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Old 2006-07-22, 20:15   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356
As for bt activity dropping, of course it did. It does with almost every series. 110k downloads of the first episode? That's almost in naruto/bleach territory. episode 14 still has 51k downloads, a huge number by any normal measure. I think many people downloaded it, then didn't get what they were expecting. Some probably thought episode one was what the show would be like, and were turned off, not realizing it was a "movie" made by the characters. More were probably turned off by the non-linear ordering. Besides, popularity isn't a good indicator of quality. People, in general, like straight foward, linear stories.

Also, if you didn't like the series that much, why'd you give it a 9?
Mid season figures were about 30-40k for SuzuHaru, while I think episode 100s-ish of Naruto registered about 225k downloads (I noted during the older Downloadanime.org days).. I'm not sure what the hell your point is though, and what that portion of the post is for.. they're all rather obvious points. I never made my point as a knock on the series but rather to note that it really isn't anywhere near "mainstream" or massively popular like the other series.

What SuzuHaru has, is not swarms of fans like OP/Naruto/Bleach but rather a smaller but very hardcore group of fans.
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Old 2006-07-22, 20:46   Link #68
Shirobane
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Probably the main reason for the drop offs since the first episode is simply because the second wave came in expecting a simple comedy. What they got however something different in which many of those did not know how to react to. Mindyou internet ratings aren't exactly creditable to start out with. In my mind, there are three things that no one can deny that Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu provided - it was fresh, the ideas within the story was thoughtful and it was produced incredibly well.

@Shredder
A good show could warrant another watching, but a great show would be one in which upon re-watching, you find out something new. It's not simply to understand (I'm sure that everyone that has finished the series understood what happened) but to understand better. SuzuHaru is subtle in the way that on the first viewing, you will recieve enough superficial in formation to understand what is going on. But on the second viewing, the motives and personalities of the characters become much more apparent along with many other underlying themes.

No, anime is not a puzzle but maybe all shows should have some puzzle elements in it. It'd certaintly make for a much more enjoyable watch than "hot blooded hero goes berserk and destroys enemy the end". As for SuzuHaru being a fad, maybe, but it is definately deep enough to challenge the throne from EVA/Rahxephon (and at the rate most of the other shows are going, we'd still remember Haruhi 5-years later). The show has its flaws, but it couldn't make less of a dent on my enjoyment. It's an incredible gateway drug into the universe that the novels built and in a way has enriched my life as I am currently attempting to tackle the first four novels in Chinese after years of not reading anything Chinese.

There isn't a doubt in my mind, the winner of this season is Suzumiya Haruhi and I only wish to be able to give this series more than a 10/10.
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Old 2006-07-22, 23:00   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredder
That might be true, but should a good series require multiple viewings to absorb and understand? I guess this is an honest question. After all it's a show, not a puzzle, I figure. Of course all the characters were strangers in the first ep and I had no idea who was who--but this series decided to be different and dump ppl right in. I found it somewhat gimmicky.

I'd say about 8.5 so I rounded in the generous direction. My opinion too could change with time, dunno. With each new series I gain new perspective and often changed perceptions of prior series. LH FTW always though. If Haruhi were ugly or plain and the ED dance were absent, my score may have dropped substantially. Kiss also raised it a lot. Blush could've done more if only it had happened.
So, first you complain about it being gimmicky, and then you pull out superficial criteria like the characters' looks and the ED dance?



... I feel like saying something very Kyonish, but I shall refrain.
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Old 2006-07-22, 23:46   Link #70
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Shirobane, I definitely encourage you to read the chinese novels. They aren't really that difficult to understand if you have some chinese backgrounds, and they are pretty updated as well.

I will post my thoughts on the series later, already pretty late over here.
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Old 2006-07-23, 00:03   Link #71
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by arias
I'm not sure what the hell your point is though, and what that portion of the post is for.. they're all rather obvious points.
Umm... If they're rather obvious, why are you asking what my point was? Also, what's with the "what the hell"? Kind of a rude way to phrase things to someone who wasn't even responding to you...

I was responding to Shredder's comments that the declining bt downloads were somehow indicitave of how well the series will stand the test of time. I was merely pointing out that it's common for a series to decline in downloads as people decide it isn't for them, while offering speculations to reasons for it in this case, based on which episodes saw the biggest drops in downloads.

As for my almost naruto/bleach territory comment, I was using that to show the number of downloads were unsustainable for an anime targeted at otaku. Only mainstream series like Naruto and Bleach get that many downloads. Last time I checked, Bleach was getting about 100k downloads per episode, and Naruto about 170k, with some peaking above 200k. I'm not aware of any other series breaking the 100k barrier. Now that was a while ago, and I'm sure they've since gone up, but I don't care enough to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredder
That might be true, but should a good series require multiple viewings to absorb and understand? I guess this is an honest question. After all it's a show, not a puzzle, I figure. Of course all the characters were strangers in the first ep and I had no idea who was who--but this series decided to be different and dump ppl right in. I found it somewhat gimmicky.
Ah, but that's exactly my definition of a good show. I like shows that you can watch over and over, discovering something new each time. I do kind of agree with you about episode one dumping you right in though. While I don't personally mind it, like I mentioned before, whenever I recommend the series to someone, I tell them about episode 1 for that very reason.
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Old 2006-07-23, 00:24   Link #72
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*Rewatchability* is one of my key factors in determining the goodness of a series (just like a book is better if I can reread it periodically and continue to enjoy it or spot things I missed or reconnect with the story in a new light).

I've been suggesting to anyone I think would like this series that they start with episode two and come back to one later unless they've had some experience with "disorienting" film technique (suddenly "12 Monkeys" springs to mind or a couple of Hitchcock films). They also have to commit to watching the first five episodes before making any judgement.

In my case, about 10 minutes into ep 1, I could see we were getting foreshadow clues and that this was a really well-animated version of a "student made film". The narration was what really kept me intrigued with its dry sardonic comment.
Then at the end when it cuts to "real life" (normal KyoAni animation), its really an eyecatch event.
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Old 2006-07-23, 01:03   Link #73
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from what i see from some of my friends, they quitted Naruto because of the same sequence and such going on and was bored of it. As for bleach we continued, its pretty interesting, but boring at times too.

now as i read through all the viewpoints, arguments and such just now, i found out something... only true anime lovers appreciate whats in all the anime. bad or not, there's always a flower blooming in them, so still they're beautiful.

in my standpoint, i still loved Susumiya Haruhi No Yuutsu. I even went mad as i did for Shuffle! and Shakugan No Shana, and was saving money for the novels and manga, japanese imports or not. Because i think SHnY is something worth it to buy, something worth myself to bring down to the next generation. i had my family prepare to watch it, but due to no burners, i have to ask friends to help me burn them out. sadly no Chinese subs from them.

and yeah... SHnY, in a way, is also like School Rumble. Not in the school life way but the way they do things. all the same i say.

hmmm well EP1 for SHnY is like someone said, bad? i dunno, i just liked it for the sensation, pretty interesting. everything that has a start is never nice, but wait till it blooms.
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Old 2006-07-23, 01:20   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356
Umm... If they're rather obvious, why are you asking what my point was? Also, what's with the "what the hell"? Kind of a rude way to phrase things to someone who wasn't even responding to you...

[...]

As for my almost naruto/bleach territory comment, I was using that to show the number of downloads were unsustainable for an anime targeted at otaku. Only mainstream series like Naruto and Bleach get that many downloads. Last time I checked, Bleach was getting about 100k downloads per episode, and Naruto about 170k, with some peaking above 200k. I'm not aware of any other series breaking the 100k barrier. Now that was a while ago, and I'm sure they've since gone up, but I don't care enough to check.
Well, cry me a river if you feel hurt.

You're right about unsustainability, it's just that you weren't anywhere nearly as clear in your previous post which would not have informed Shredder of SuzuHaru's unique status apart from the other anime. I think AMG actually sustained a fairly high number of downloads for quite some time; with many episodes from the first season roaming around 120k. However, it's now probably dropped to lower than 40k..

We have to be careful about generalizing the target audience factor to other anime in your notion of unsustainability, though. AMG S2 and more notably recently, School Rumble S2's BT downloads have dropped probably in part because of their inconsistent subbing schedule. People just drop it and leave because of that.. SuzuHaru had a really consistent subbing schedule so this couldn't have been the case. In any case, while it is likely that the viewership target of SuzuHaru played a part in its BT downloads dip, I think the fact that it was a steady decline in BT download figures that hints that there's abit more to the story.

It just really says that it's losing more and more of its audience as it runs (eventually stabilizing at 40,000+/-).. whereas you'd think that if it were just the otaku/mainstream factor, the dip would have been rather immediate and the stabilization occur more quickly than not.
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Old 2006-07-23, 02:55   Link #75
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by arias
Well, cry me a river if you feel hurt.
I didn't say I felt hurt, rather I thought it a bit rude. I mean I could see if I had directed the comments at you.... meh, doesn't really matter much...

Quote:
You're right about unsustainability, it's just that you weren't anywhere nearly as clear in your previous post which would not have informed Shredder of SuzuHaru's unique status apart from the other anime. I think AMG actually sustained a fairly high number of downloads for quite some time; with many episodes from the first season roaming around 120k. However, it's now probably dropped to lower than 40k..
I was on my way out the door when I typed that. I thought it got the meaning across, but since I knew what I was trying to say, my judgement isn't really that accurate. I apologize for any ambiguity.

I don't remember how many downloads AMG got, and I can't seem to find any statistics for it either, nor for the second season. However, if one discounts the losses to irregular fansubbing for season 2, I'm sure it followed a similiar trend, "bleeding" fans as the series progressed. Apart from series like Naruto and Bleach, which gain more viewers than they lose due to mainstream appeal, most anime series seem to follow that pattern.

Of course, it's harder to tell with series released by multiple groups. For those it might just be a case of a lot of people downloading the same episode from each group to decide which to follow.

Quote:
We have to be careful about generalizing the target audience factor to other anime in your notion of unsustainability, though. AMG S2 and more notably recently, School Rumble S2's BT downloads have dropped probably in part because of their inconsistent subbing schedule. People just drop it and leave because of that.. SuzuHaru had a really consistent subbing schedule so this couldn't have been the case. In any case, while it is likely that the viewership target of SuzuHaru played a part in its BT downloads dip, I think the fact that it was a steady decline in BT download figures that hints that there's abit more to the story.

It just really says that it's losing more and more of its audience as it runs (eventually stabilizing at 40,000+/-).. whereas you'd think that if it were just the otaku/mainstream factor, the dip would have been rather immediate and the stabilization occur more quickly than not.
But a big chunk of the dip was immediate, and it wasn't really a steady decline. Most of the audience SuzuHaru lost were so after episodes 1(~20k), 4(~10k), and 5(~14k). It's not so much that each episode bled a lot of viewers, as a few episodes caused a lot of people to drop it. If the decline had been more evenly distributed, I'd agree with you, but most of it came after just 3 of them.
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Old 2006-07-24, 11:08   Link #76
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I gave it a 9. It was an excellent series, but there are a few I would rate over it, including Noein.
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Old 2006-07-24, 11:34   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeLegend
now as i read through all the viewpoints, arguments and such just now, i found out something... only true anime lovers appreciate whats in all the anime. bad or not, there's always a flower blooming in them, so still they're beautiful.
LOL

where on earth did you pull that from?

Genius.

Gotta use that the next time someone question about my Anime hobby.

Nothing like throwing something random about flowers into argument to thrw them off.
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Old 2006-07-24, 11:37   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
But I also can't help feeling odd when other people don't like the shows I like. I worry that I'm missing some great fault that they can see. I don't want to be different from other people, it just seems to happen. And the more people like the shows I like, the more likely it is that other similar shows will be made.
It's because you're having difficulty reconciling the difference between something being "good" and it being "something you like". I can look at anyone's list of shows they like and find shows that are not good in there. Something doesn't have to be good (i.e. executed well) to be enjoyable - similarly, things that are good will not be enjoyed by everyone. And there's nothing wrong with that, a large part of enjoyment has to do with how a work resonates with the viewer. Since each person has different experiences - each has a different resonance with any particular work. The problem is that people are sort of wired to expect that they only like "good" things and dislike "bad" things - leading to silly discussions like this whereby people make up reasons for something being "good" or "bad" when what they are in fact discussing is whether they enjoyed it or not.

That being said, SHnY is obviously good (it was done by KyoAni and was executed as well as their previous series have been), but that doesn't necessarily make it enjoyable. Personally I found the episode skippage part of it's quirky charm. But then I'm also in the minorest of minorities, I watched the whole thing and didn't particularly love it nor did I dislike it. I found it to be an enjoyable watch with some interesting subplots, but if my choice had been this and another season of FMP!TSR, I'd have taken FMP. Now if my choice is this or a remake of Kanon, I'd take another season of this any day of the week. I thought it started stronger than it ended, but it still ended very well it had a lot of nice touches and nods to it's own continuity. And, most importantly to the author, it made me interested in picking up the novels. Like Higurashi no naku koro ni though, I can't help but feel like there's a much better story contained in the original source material. I mean MUCH better, it has the feel of something that has been compressed a lot to fit in what KyoAni wanted to do.
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Old 2006-07-24, 12:45   Link #79
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Originally Posted by rooboy666

That being said, SHnY is obviously good (it was done by KyoAni and was executed as well as their previous series have been), but that doesn't necessarily make it enjoyable. Personally I found the episode skippage part of it's quirky charm. But then I'm also in the minorest of minorities, I watched the whole thing and didn't particularly love it nor did I dislike it. I found it to be an enjoyable watch with some interesting subplots, but if my choice had been this and another season of FMP!TSR, I'd have taken FMP. Now if my choice is this or a remake of Kanon, I'd take another season of this any day of the week. I thought it started stronger than it ended, but it still ended very well it had a lot of nice touches and nods to it's own continuity. And, most importantly to the author, it made me interested in picking up the novels. Like Higurashi no naku koro ni though, I can't help but feel like there's a much better story contained in the original source material. I mean MUCH better, it has the feel of something that has been compressed a lot to fit in what KyoAni wanted to do.
See, whereas I simply have not been able to get interested in FMP. I don't deny it is good or well executed, it just doesn't work for me. And thats part of the ticket, there's a lot of good anime out there I just don't care for. Example: I'm not a mecha fan.. meaning I won't watch a story just because it has mecha in it. If its a well-written story that happens to occur around mecha I'm fine with it but if half the series is about the mecha transformations or power moves I'm outtahere.

IT IS REALLY OKAY TO NOT LIKE A STORY AND ACCEPT THAT IT IS WELL MADE.
One doesn't have to trash it to feel better. On the other hand, a story full of plot holes or characters that behave so erratically that you think the producers are using a random line generator for dialog should be labeled for what it is -- junk.

Higurashi and SHnY are both attempts to do something unusual and creative using some what appears to be really excellent source material. So you have to give the "Peter Jackson award for a really entertaining try" medal to them both.
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Old 2006-07-24, 15:05   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356
But a big chunk of the dip was immediate, and it wasn't really a steady decline. Most of the audience SuzuHaru lost were so after episodes 1(~20k), 4(~10k), and 5(~14k). It's not so much that each episode bled a lot of viewers, as a few episodes caused a lot of people to drop it. If the decline had been more evenly distributed, I'd agree with you, but most of it came after just 3 of them.
I think your statistics are not representative of the actual situation.. mainly because 20k + 10k + 14k = 44k. SuzuHaru's initial viewcount was 120-140k. Let's be conservative and say 120k, so taking away your 44k means that 76k is left.

We all know that it stabilized at about 40k towards the end, so the audience loss is obviously much more than what you've claimed.
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