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Old 2006-07-11, 22:51   Link #81
SNT1
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well, like I said, never really had a change to read some of them Astrays, just 'hearing' things XD
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Old 2006-07-11, 23:19   Link #82
M_Flores
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Just for the record, Zechs would've and could've won the fight against Wing Zero (the Zero system was probably off, for at least Zechs anyway).
So Epyon lost an arm and heat rod - so what?
Wing Zero ran out of ammo and beam saber ran out of power and it was clear that Epyon could still use the beam sword. Zechs easily had the upper hand here and could've slashed away at Heero before he could self detonate, perhaps.
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Old 2006-07-11, 23:22   Link #83
DropDeadEd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Flores
Just for the record, Zechs would've and could've won the fight against Wing Zero (the Zero system was probably off, for at least Zechs anyway).
So Epyon lost an arm and heat rod - so what?
Wing Zero ran out of ammo and beam saber ran out of power and it was clear that Epyon could still use the beam sword. Zechs easily had the upper hand here and could've slashed away at Heero before he could self detonate, perhaps.

Just for the record, neither has defeated a top notch pilot.
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Old 2006-07-11, 23:25   Link #84
M_Flores
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DropDeadEd
Just for the record, neither has defeated a top notch pilot.
Wu Fei killed Trieze.
So are you saying Wu Fei > Zechs and Heero?












lol... j/k relax.
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Old 2006-07-12, 00:11   Link #85
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DropDeadEd
Just for the record, neither has defeated a top notch pilot.
Remember when Zechs was fighting Duo and Catra? (forgot how to spell dudes name.) Zechs was pwning them. He was just toying with both of them and still kicking their ass's. lol. It was 2 on 1 And Zechs was smoking them like it was nothing. Also When Zechs was Fighting Heero (Tallgeese vs Heavy arms) Zechs finished that fight with the upper hand.
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Old 2006-07-12, 00:24   Link #86
Soluzar
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There is something to be said for Zechs in that he can handle a mobile suit that, if I recall correctly, nobody else can properly handle. MAHQ confirms my memory. Zechs was the first (only?) one to be able to handle the Tallgeese effectively. Within the Wing universe, it's arguable whether he stands above or below Heero in terms of overall skill level. I was under the impression that their last encounter was essentially a victory for Heero, but it's been a while since I've seen Wing.

I'm going to have to comment on the suggestions that anyone from CE could really claim the title, though. It seems to me that if you level the playing field, and put Heero or Zechs in a CE Gundam, they'd probably be a better pilot than anyone from CE.

Kira is a good pilot, there's no getting around it, but using a Gundam like the ones he's used makes you seem better than you are. I wonder how well Kira would perform in a Tallgeese?

The strange thing is that I like SEED a lot better than I like Wing. I'm just not under any illusions about what is on display in that series.
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Old 2006-07-12, 00:29   Link #87
grandmaster192
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Originally Posted by Soluzar
There is something to be said for Zechs in that he can handle a mobile suit that, if I recall correctly, nobody else can properly handle. MAHQ confirms my memory. Zechs was the first (only?) one to be able to handle the Tallgeese effectively. Within the Wing universe, it's arguable whether he stands above or below Heero in terms of overall skill level. I was under the impression that their last encounter was essentially a victory for Heero, but it's been a while since I've seen Wing.

I'm going to have to comment on the suggestions that anyone from CE could really claim the title, though. It seems to me that if you level the playing field, and put Heero or Zechs in a CE Gundam, they'd probably be a better pilot than anyone from CE.

Kira is a good pilot, there's no getting around it, but using a Gundam like the ones he's used makes you seem better than you are. I wonder how well Kira would perform in a Tallgeese?

The strange thing is that I like SEED a lot better than I like Wing. I'm just not under any illusions about what is on display in that series.
Well then what CE gundams would you put Zechs and Heero in?
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Old 2006-07-12, 00:46   Link #88
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soluzar
There is something to be said for Zechs in that he can handle a mobile suit that, if I recall correctly, nobody else can properly handle. MAHQ confirms my memory. Zechs was the first (only?) one to be able to handle the Tallgeese effectively.
I believe Treize did decently with his Tallgeese, unless there's something about Tallgeese II that I can't remember that would make it easier to pilot than Tallgeese I.
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Old 2006-07-12, 02:33   Link #89
M_Flores
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soluzar
There is something to be said for Zechs in that he can handle a mobile suit that, if I recall correctly, nobody else can properly handle. MAHQ confirms my memory. Zechs was the first (only?) one to be able to handle the Tallgeese effectively. Within the Wing universe, it's arguable whether he stands above or below Heero in terms of overall skill level. I was under the impression that their last encounter was essentially a victory for Heero, but it's been a while since I've seen Wing.

I'm going to have to comment on the suggestions that anyone from CE could really claim the title, though. It seems to me that if you level the playing field, and put Heero or Zechs in a CE Gundam, they'd probably be a better pilot than anyone from CE.

Kira is a good pilot, there's no getting around it, but using a Gundam like the ones he's used makes you seem better than you are. I wonder how well Kira would perform in a Tallgeese?

The strange thing is that I like SEED a lot better than I like Wing. I'm just not under any illusions about what is on display in that series.
I thought Coordinators are meant to be better than normal humans?
Heero and Zechs may have the experience, the right attitude (at times), etc. but don't Coordinators have better reflexes, faster reaction time, sharper eye sight, improved senses, longer stamina and endurance, etc.?
Would Heero and Zech's experience really outweigh all this?
Athrun himself recieved military training, probably had as many injuries as Heero did, also survived self detonation (indirect), ready to give his life for his mission, etc., would he be considered inferior to Heero or Zechs?
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Old 2006-07-12, 03:02   Link #90
SNT1
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Quote:
but don't Coordinators have better reflexes, faster reaction time, sharper eye sight, improved senses, longer stamina and endurance, etc.?
I would say skill and experience > physical capability... and Heero is very infamous for jumping off Gundams and skyscrapers and breaking bones and not get hurt... much. I dont know if the coords can do that
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Old 2006-07-12, 03:17   Link #91
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Originally Posted by SNT1
I would say skill and experience > physical capability
What about a skilled and experienced coordinator?
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Old 2006-07-12, 03:18   Link #92
Soluzar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNT1
I would say skill and experience > physical capability... and Heero is very infamous for jumping off Gundams and skyscrapers and breaking bones and not get hurt... much. I dont know if the coords can do that
Well, Coordinators can apparently survive the self-destruction of one Gundam and the destruction of another in the resultant blast. However, I agree entirely. Kira's potential is probably higher than Heero's, but Heero was trained practically since he was a baby to be the ultimate soldier.
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Old 2006-07-12, 04:26   Link #93
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Flores
I thought Coordinators are meant to be better than normal humans?
Heero and Zechs may have the experience, the right attitude (at times), etc. but don't Coordinators have better reflexes, faster reaction time, sharper eye sight, improved senses, longer stamina and endurance, etc.?
But you gotta remember. Heero is not a normal human. He's a Super Human. Did you not see his Super Human Strength? And Trust me....Zechs's reflexes are not weaker then Kira's or any other Coordinater. And when Zechs has his Zero System you mine as well call him a newtype. well...A weaker newtype. To bad He had it turned of alot. (i think)
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Old 2006-07-12, 07:03   Link #94
M_Flores
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
But you gotta remember. Heero is not a normal human. He's a Super Human. Did you not see his Super Human Strength? And Trust me....Zechs's reflexes are not weaker then Kira's or any other Coordinater. And when Zechs has his Zero System you mine as well call him a newtype. well...A weaker newtype. To bad He had it turned of alot. (i think)
Yeah, he pretty much turned it off during the final battle.
The helmet was off - so there's one sign.
Another is that, Zechs stopped fighting after Epyon lost an arm. If he had the Zero System on, he would've kept fighting to the death or the Zero System would've predicted/calculated/estimated/etc. that his opponent's beam saber would run out of power and machine guns would lose all ammo.

Heero on the other hand, I'd say he had the Zero System on, since he was 'talking to it' right before Wu gave him the TBR.
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Old 2006-07-12, 17:11   Link #95
Treize Khushrenada
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Paraphrasing of course

From Izumi in Destiny:

"Even if it is foolish to want just more power, it is just as foolish to hesitate at power as a meanlingless gesture"

Fixing and maintaining the Freedom simply meant they were being prepared for an unknown future where it's power will be needed once again. Sides, anyone find it strange the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice was so quickly "built" after Kira lost the Freedom?

I dunno about ya'll but I'm sure there's somewhat of a design and construction time on unique mobile suits especially considering they did this in secrecy on an asteroid.
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Old 2006-07-12, 17:24   Link #96
Treize Khushrenada
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Oh and just wanted to add, even though nothing really makes him the best "pilot"...

I nominate Dearka.

Why Dearka you say? Bottomline out of all the CE pilots he wasn't messed up. For real take a look at the list.

Kira - Moody
Athrun - defines emo (though I still love you baby)
Cagalli - defines emo part 2
Yzak - loose canon
Rau - Wacko
Rey - Wacko's clone
Shinn - crybaby
Orga, Shani, Clotho - druggies
Stellar, Auel, Sting - psycho druggies
Mwu - brainwashed

Sane, stable pilots
Dearka
Lunamaria

Sure he gets captured on his Gundam. Sure he gets busted down to regular status and pilots a weak ass Blaze Zaku. But let's not forget Dearka bags babe Miriallia (errr alledgely), and quite frankly, if I needed someone to fight with me I'd pick him, because I know he wouldn't go wacko on me and start doing dumb shit.

Therefore in conclusion - Dearka wins all.
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Old 2006-07-12, 17:38   Link #97
Tak
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Meh, I agree. As far as wingmen go, Dearka (or Shiho) is a good option.

Too bad Nicol is dead, eh? Then there are the DOM pilots. (and of course, the M1 Astray trio, then again, they died too )

I don't know if I'd want Lunamaria though, she isn't too stable herself. Look, she tries to shove her responsibilities elsewhere every chance she gets! Heck, how she hooked up with Shinn still remains somewhat of a mystery to me.

- Tak
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Old 2006-07-12, 17:45   Link #98
Varis
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Well I can turn it anyways I want but in the end Kira still wins out. I like Athrun better but the "best" would be the crazy newtype ultimate coordinator. Killing armies is one thing (go go meteor) but he has shown he has the moves against tough opponents.

Good pilots dodge or block shots with their shield. Kira goes all Jedi and blocks them with a saber... he is just a step above normal "awesome".

So I nominate Kira as the best non UC pilot.
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Old 2006-07-12, 18:29   Link #99
Treize Khushrenada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Meh, I agree. As far as wingmen go, Dearka (or Shiho) is a good option.

Too bad Nicol is dead, eh? Then there are the DOM pilots. (and of course, the M1 Astray trio, then again, they died too )

I don't know if I'd want Lunamaria though, she isn't too stable herself. Look, she tries to shove her responsibilities elsewhere every chance she gets! Heck, how she hooked up with Shinn still remains somewhat of a mystery to me.

- Tak
Then it's guilt by association again. Scratch Lunamaria Hawke form the list.

This leaves Dearka as the only reliable, sane, and stable pilot. Refresh my memory, did he ever go Seed?
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Old 2006-07-12, 18:42   Link #100
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treize Khushrenada
This leaves Dearka as the only reliable, sane, and stable pilot. Refresh my memory, did he ever go Seed?
Nope, but he has the capacity to make 'others' go seed

Miriallia wanted to knife him (ah, and its now a running gag)

Fallay wanted to shoot him.

Kira went to SEED while fighting him.

Buster Gundam kits weren't selling very well because of him.

Poor, POOR Dearka.

- Tak
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