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Old 2007-05-04, 01:31   Link #81
Junni
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
I think the theory of Yachiru being Kenpachi's sword is interesting also, but I don't think is necessary to explain the recovery of Kenpachi's zanpakou. My understanding of zanpaktous is that because they are essentially alive they have the ability to recover and heal. And if Yachiru was indeed the avatar of Kenpachi's zanpakou, wouldn't she have been involved in the fight between the two instead of just watching from above? Communication between a shinigami and their zanpakou is vital for the manifestation of their avatar in the real world and Kenpachi has none with his sword. I don't think you can unknowingly manifest your avatar into the real world either. That seems to defeat the purpose of having an actual relationship with your sword. That and Kenpachi had been using his zanpaktou for a while even before meeting Yachiru.
IF yachiru IS zaraki's avatar she wouldn't know it yet.. maybe some memory loss ?
and yachiru is only a name given by zaraki it isn't her real name...
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Old 2007-05-04, 02:34   Link #82
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
I have a question though. How did Kenpachi even come by his zanpakou? I think I read somewhere (I hope I'm not just making this up) that at the Shinigami Academy you would practice with a nameless zanpaktou and then perform some sort of ritual to bring out your real zanpaktou when you could (maybe similar to Ichigo?). So, with that said, where did Kenpachi actually get his zanpaktou from? And if that isn't true, I find it hard to believe that he just randomly picked up a sword that happened to contain the entity linked to his soul. Unlike Ichigo, I don't think it came with the shinigami uniform.
Sorry, but you're just making that up. Every shinigami gets their zanpaktou by calling it from their own soul. The only known exception to that rule is Tousen. The zanpaktou is part of the shinigami.
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Old 2007-05-04, 02:54   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Junni View Post
IF yachiru IS zaraki's avatar she wouldn't know it yet.. maybe some memory loss ?
and yachiru is only a name given by zaraki it isn't her real name...
Zaraki isn't his real name, either, since he gave it to himself, which is a good point to bring up before I say my ideas regarding Kenpachi and his Zanpakutou:

I don't believe Yachiru is an avatar or anything like that; she's got her own Zanpakutou, and the only reason I think this idea is going around is because Kubo hasn't managed to get her into a fight, yet. I'm also at odds with his sword already being in a released state since it really just looks a normal, albeit beaten up, sword, and, as many have mentioned, the characters need to know the sword's name before it can be released. Unlike some people, though, I disagree about Zaraki not needing to ever release his Zanpakutou; the enemies are just getting too ridiculously strong, and it would be too easy for Kubo to help the good guys out by giving Zaraki a huge boost in power if he ever gets a Shikai, let alone a Bankai.

The part of his flashback that stood out to me was Zaraki talking about never having a name of his own, which was later used to form a connection between Zaraki and his Vice-captain. To me, this is a defining characteristic of Zaraki; as The Small One and NoSanninWa have pointed out, a Zanpakutou is a part of the Shinigamiís soul. As I mentioned earlier, I think Zarakiís lack of a name is important, and I think this nameless theme will be brought up again if Zaraki will ever learn how to release it for a simple reason: I believe that his Zanpakutou does not have a name and that Zaraki will have to give it a name himself, exactly like he had to choose a name for himself.

Right after he was defeated by Ichigo, Zaraki tried asking his Zanpakutou its name and got no answer. Maybe he should try a different approach.
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Old 2007-05-04, 03:45   Link #84
sakuraame
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Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post
Sorry, but you're just making that up. Every shinigami gets their zanpaktou by calling it from their own soul. The only known exception to that rule is Tousen. The zanpaktou is part of the shinigami.
That's true, but not all shinigami actually use a zanpaktou that is connected to their soul. Lower level shinigami actually use a nameless zanpaktou called asauchi. Zangetsu tells Ichigo this in Ch 110, page 14 during Ichigo's fight with Kenpachi when he brings Ichigo into his inner world.


And I guess that would be my real question that I guess I didn't articulate clearly. How did Kenpachi get his zanpaktou if he doesn't know its name and thus can't exactly acquire it by "calling it from [his] own soul" as you put it? The sword is obviously not nameless in that it has its own soul. Zangetsu and Ichigo actually comment on Kenpachi's sword morning and crying out even though Kenpachi can't hear it. (Ch 113, page 8)


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I believe that his Zanpakutou does not have a name and that Zaraki will have to give it a name himself, exactly like he had to choose a name for himself.
Hm... I'm not sure I agree with this. I saw Kenpachi as not having a name and Yachiru not having a name as evidence of them being alone in the world. A name would be evidence of existence. I believe that Kenpachi's zanpakutou has a name that Kenpachi doesn't know. If his zanpakutou didn't have a name I could see the sword being more inclined to communicate with Kenpachi, as Kenpachi would be the only one who could name it and thus prove the blade's existence. And I would think that a blade connected to own's soul would be the one thing that did have a name, it being such a personal part of you.


P.S. Am I allowed to link to a website that hosts pictures of Bleach? I'm new at this and so I'm quite sure. If I am, let me know and I'll post links to the two Bleach chapters I mentioned above if I can.
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Old 2007-05-04, 04:02   Link #85
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
And I guess that would be my real question that I guess I didn't articulate clearly. How did Kenpachi get his zanpaktou if he doesn't know its name and thus can't exactly acquire it by "calling it from [his] own soul" as you put it? The sword is obviously not nameless in that it has its own soul. Zangetsu and Ichigo actually comment on Kenpachi's sword morning and crying out even though Kenpachi can't hear it. (Ch 113, page 8)
Not every shinigami knows the name of their zanpaktou. It was explained that knowing the name of your zanpaktou is a prerequisite for learning how to release your shikai. Until a shinigami has shikai (and it was made clear that many of them do not have shikai) they have a zanpaktou whose name they do not know -- just like Kenpachi.

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P.S. Am I allowed to link to a website that hosts pictures of Bleach? I'm new at this and so I'm quite sure. If I am, let me know and I'll post links to the two Bleach chapters I mentioned above if I can.
You are allowed to post links to sites with pictures, but you are not allowed to post links to Bleach chapters. The manga has been licensed by Viz, so please don't post it.
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Old 2007-05-04, 05:39   Link #86
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Kenpachi thinks of his blade just a tool to fight hence why he doesn't know the name of his soul slayer is because he is too bloody stubborn and only rely's on his brute strength to win the fight. I think sooner or later he will be forced to communicate with his soul slayer all he needs is someone like grimmjow or even stronger to put a sense to him e.g. Ikkaku never showed his bankai until his encounter with an espada which left him no choice to show his true colours...there is more to kenpachi that we dont know and i cant wait until that gap is filled. =]
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Old 2007-05-04, 08:26   Link #87
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wait if kenpachi could call out his soul slayers name do you think he could be the strongest captain? because he beat two captains without it so if could and started fighting like ichigo and the oher captains wouldnt he be to strong for the series?
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Old 2007-05-04, 17:29   Link #88
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wait if kenpachi could call out his soul slayers name do you think he could be the strongest captain? because he beat two captains without it so if could and started fighting like ichigo and the oher captains wouldnt he be to strong for the series?
I'd probably put him second behind Yamamoto if that was the case.

The one thing that stood out in the SS arc was that not all captains are equal. Yamamoto and Kenpachi are the only guys who have shown to be able to (with little effort) solo two captains. Although the disturbing thing was Kenpachi was doing it without even removing his eyepatch and facing 2 bankais.

This may mean while Yamamoto was facing probably the #2 and #3 Captains, that Kenpachi was facing the weakest (or possibly, KT is later on going to allude to Ken at that point already knowing the name of his sword, gaining it shortly after his chat with his sword scene cut out from the post-Ichigo fight--maybe another amusing retcon).
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Old 2007-05-07, 08:46   Link #89
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maybe ken actually already know his SS's name but he just gave the name away to some baby he just met ( yachiru ) =D
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Old 2007-05-07, 10:46   Link #90
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Kenpachi's removal of his eyepatch is quite parallel to a shikai release, he was able to nullify Ichinose's most powerful attack by doing so. He has a need for a Bankai true since other shinigami are constantly becoming more powerful but not really a Shikai in my opinion. If he were to acquire either they would be collossaly destructive. Unlike Zangetsu and Renjis avatars Yachiru is constantly in physical form and in death god clothes, she could be able to constantly maintain this form due to Kenpashis vast spirit power but this still seems unlikely. Kenpachi did meet Yachiru in Rukongai when she was a baby and now shes a child, I dont believe Avatars can age so then again unlikely.
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Old 2007-05-07, 12:29   Link #91
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IMHO this is wrong.
I think Shinigami, who are making progresses are the exception. I'd say all of the captains and vicecaptains, and most of the seated Shinigami have already reached their limits, the only ones still becoming more powerful are the ones still going to the academy.
Shinigami was incorrect ill agree with you. He needs a Bankai since the level of Enemies are constantly increasing.
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Old 2007-05-07, 12:37   Link #92
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Actually, I don't know of I agree with the assessment that all the captains and vice captains have already reached their limits. Renji still hasn't mastered his Bankai yet and even as a captain, Hitsayaga still hasn't completely master his Bankai. Maybe it just seems that way because Soul Society hasn't seen any action in a while? I think especially with all this upheaval soul society is going through, if they weren't getting stronger they are going to have to. I mean, how are they going to defeat enemies that are constantly getting stronger if they don't get stronger themselves?

But back to Kenpachi, I agree, he will be frightening if he ever reaches Bankai. But first he'll have to get over his pride, which I don't see happening anytime soon.
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Old 2007-05-07, 15:07   Link #93
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I'd say most of the VCs and Captains haven't reached their limits--but have reached their limits in the near foreseeable future. They can obviously improve with years and years of training.

Ukitake on the bridge noted Ichigo was "captain-class" and we know how strong Ichigo is in the reaitsu department. Additionally, he floored Ikkaku and Renji at a time when he clearly wasn't captain-class, yet at least one of them (probably both) are candidates for Captaincy.

Ukitake when he said "captain-class" was probably talking about a power-range, most likely what he was used to in prior centuries of veteran captains. We do know that in the last 25-100 years most of the current captains ascended which means the veteran captains of old are either dead , retired, or promoted to the royal guard--which is why someone like Hitsugaya who can barely handle a numerous while fully powered can be a Captain, and still not quite be "captain-class" in terms of reaitsu power.
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Old 2007-05-07, 22:45   Link #94
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Kenapchi will probably never learn his soul slayers name or bankai because it would make him too powerful. He was already able to defeat two captains who used bankai against him. Bankai would make him the "i win" button for soul society.
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Old 2007-05-08, 06:42   Link #95
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The number of theories regarding Kenpachi's zanpakuto that appear in fanfiction are staggering and some get positively amusing. Kenpachi, beaten by a 9th Espada? Preposterous!! XD
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Old 2007-05-08, 07:16   Link #96
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well since GJ pawned bankai ichigo so badly, its safe to assume that most of the captains are around the level of possibly the 7th espada or below, with the exception of maybe ukitake, shinsui, and yamaji, since we haven't seen them in full strength.
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Old 2007-05-09, 02:45   Link #97
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Though I'd imagine Soi Fong could pretty much kill anyone if they didn't do their scouting report on her abilities--and if she didn't yap to the opponent it's capabilities before attempting to kill them with said method.

Unfortunately this is shounen anime and this is how they limit matchup problems--they just have the character's with deus ex weapons act like idiots. Either that or all the villains conveniently knows what the weapon can do already.

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well since GJ pawned bankai ichigo so badly, its safe to assume that most of the captains are around the level of possibly the 7th espada or below, with the exception of maybe ukitake, shinsui, and yamaji, since we haven't seen them in full strength.
We haven't seen all the bankais of captains. Ichigo's shikai is a passive release type which makes him captain-class strength. Should other captains have bankais that drastically increase their reaitsu (unlike Ichigo's, which is basically a pure speed boost) they might not have so much problems with the Espada as Ichigo has.

Remember Byakuya's 2nd stage of bankai basically overpowered Ichigo. Byakuya has a third stage too--we don't know how strong Byakuya really is in relation to the Espada--or Kenpachi for that matter. Both times when they were "defeated" Ichigo's power level was pretty dubious since we don't know how much of a boost he was getting from Zangetsu (and the classic DBZ style blue aura probably means "just enough to win the fight" boost). Ichigo is a pure melee character, and in both instances of un-aided melee, he pretty much got rocked.

For all we know Kenpachi at full strength and Byakuya at bankai level 2/3 going all out might be able to fight evenly with GJ, or maybe even defeat him.

Last edited by astrallionheart; 2007-05-09 at 03:39.
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Old 2007-05-09, 04:47   Link #98
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i don't know about byakuya, but i do know kenpachi was fighting ichigo @ full strenght and lost, although the release of his eye patch was a bit late. It doesn't change the fact that Ichigo did match him at the end with zangetsu's help, though i don't see why its considered a help since zangetsu is part of ichi. So logically speaking kenpachi should get whopped by GJ, but as you said its shounen, matchup rules don't apply, anyone can beat anyone really.
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Old 2007-05-09, 06:38   Link #99
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Though I'd imagine Soi Fong could pretty much kill anyone if they didn't do their scouting report on her abilities--and if she didn't yap to the opponent it's capabilities before attempting to kill them with said method.

Unfortunately this is shounen anime and this is how they limit matchup problems--they just have the character's with deus ex weapons act like idiots. Either that or all the villains conveniently knows what the weapon can do already.
Curious how you draw the conclusion that Soi Fong can kill any of the high level espadas (<7) given what we know about her? Seeing as Ichigo had trouble even touching #6 without achieving a Vaizard release, what makes you think Soi Fong can match that speed?

Do keep in mind that Ichigo's bankai speed is meant to be faster than the typical shippun that Captains do.

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Originally Posted by astrallionheart

We haven't seen all the bankais of captains. Ichigo's shikai is a passive release type which makes him captain-class strength. Should other captains have bankais that drastically increase their reaitsu (unlike Ichigo's, which is basically a pure speed boost) they might not have so much problems with the Espada as Ichigo has.

Remember Byakuya's 2nd stage of bankai basically overpowered Ichigo. Byakuya has a third stage too--we don't know how strong Byakuya really is in relation to the Espada--or Kenpachi for that matter. Both times when they were "defeated" Ichigo's power level was pretty dubious since we don't know how much of a boost he was getting from Zangetsu (and the classic DBZ style blue aura probably means "just enough to win the fight" boost). Ichigo is a pure melee character, and in both instances of un-aided melee, he pretty much got rocked.

For all we know Kenpachi at full strength and Byakuya at bankai level 2/3 going all out might be able to fight evenly with GJ, or maybe even defeat him.
Byakuya's 2nd stage Bankai only started overpowering Ichigo when Ichigo's bankai gave out and it broke his bones. Prior to that Byakuya had a lot of trouble even touching Ichigo. If Ichigo were to face Byakuya now after he mastered his bankai somewhat (since it no longer seems to damage his body quite so much), I doubt the Byakuya can stand much of a chance unless Byakuya has severely improved his skills.

With regard to your comment about Shonen rules, you have to keep in mind that author has absolute authority. We, as fans, can only deduce conclusions from what we seen of the characters. You cannot call any win by the main character "Forced story wins" and regard all the failures as "yah..this is why he sucks". Otherwise, all these debates regarding the power levels of characters will degenerate into, "that character got an unfair DBZ boost which caused him to win a fight".
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Old 2007-05-09, 15:59   Link #100
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...and that's why this is a speculation thread.

What's the point of ending all arguments in a speculation thread with a "I win" statement because the author has final say? If you want to do that, make a new thread that says "no speculation here."

And let's be frank here, if you are going to say Byakuya had trouble with Ichigo at stage 2 bankai, then Ichigo was even worse off. As you say, he had great speed, but when Byakuya's second stage fired off Ichigo never touched Byakuya once. Unless you are saying, Ichigo was crippled for the entire 10 mins conveniently as soon as Byakuya's 2nd stage was released.

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