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Old 2006-07-22, 22:24   Link #61
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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And Relena had two of the best pilots and MS of her era backing her up. Heero and Zechs.....Wing Zero and Tallgeese III
The difference, of course, is that Relena had nothing to do with obtaining Wing Zero or Tallgeese. She was just lucky that two powerful people decided to support her. On the other hand, Lacus made sure she has what she needs... even without Kira or Athrun, the Dom pilots themselves would have been formidable as her bodyguards.

Quite simply, I can imagine a reasonably peaceful Wing universe even if Relena was killed off early, as she wasn't truly pivotal to the peace.

But nothing in the CE goodguy camp would function without Lacus. Lacus has actual political power. She is respected, and indeed feared. (Though you can trust her with your life if you are on her side.)
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Old 2006-07-22, 22:32   Link #62
Eidolon Sniper
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What I can say about Lacus is that she has the infallible character plot hole armor surrounding her person...

Really, if she wanted the war to end, why didn't she decide to crush all those who would most likely do those evil things once and for all? A thorough job? Maybe, to the eyes of those who believe in her. But when you really look at it, how thorough was she in trying to make sure peace goes a long way after what she did in the last war? Instead of safeguarding the peace she worked so hard to win for the rest of the universe, she decides to retire to some island taking care of children. It was something that she and her allies worked so hard for, why didn't she at least make sure that it stays that way by leading ZAFT through the last 2 years? At least she made sure that those who would likely attempt to do something quite afraid of her presence, and that there is no need for Terminal, Factory, and all else besides. Plus, if you look at the way that she achieved those things, who wouldn't think that what she did was treason? Inciting people to rebellion, stealing ZAFT technology for her own use against Patrick Zala, then doing it all over again in GSD...people couldn't think that she could also use that much power and influence and money to wage her own war against those who would try to oppose her? Really, what would you think if some great leader was amassing all those superior MS technology, unleashing it to the world, going by the mask that what he's doing is for the greater peace of the thousands of people throughout the entire world...Lacus went through 2 wars, making sure that she literally crushes her opponents with the best pilots and MS at her disposal, and using what she believes regarding just one little notebook to safely assure the world that Dullindal is a twisted psycopath that needs to be done off with...and getting all those people to believe in her just because she's Lacus Clyne and that they don't need to think about it twice, what she thinks/feels/believes is the best for all mankind... but of course, she has the plot hole armor...

At least Relena had to really work hard for her own influence to be gained, even had to be led to be used by others so that she could at least make sure her ideals were safely brought across, and that she really had to stand on her own going against an entire council full of conniving politicians who think otherwise. Of course, she's bound to fail at first, but at least she saw those chances as something that made her believe that she really should work harder in order to make sure that she would be able to get the job done at the end. What the GBoys did was, well, fortunate enough that it was going by what she feels should be done, even if it was done in a different way other than what she think is right. And she made doubly sure by becoming a Vice Minister at the end of Wing, so that she could actually see through it that nothing would hinder what she had finally achieved. Or, at least, be sure that everything would be carefully looked over at.
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Old 2006-07-22, 22:50   Link #63
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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No, Lacus didn't force world peace with her force of arms...

Because it is not possible to do so via violence. Further, she doesn't believe it is possible unless people actually want peace.

Quite simply, Lacus has no intention of forcing her will on other people. That is why she only does just enough to prevent the world from being destroyed.

The reason why peace was obtained in Wing was because 1. there is no sequel planned and 2. The politics were simplistic.

You can claim how much Lacus is a threat to the world, but that is also exactly why she stay out of the world's way. Trying to label her as an axis of evil isn't going to make much sense, if all she wants to do is to retired at the age of 17 to an island and pick grapes in a vinyard, while surrounded by kids. There is abosolutely no reason not to trust her doing the right thing, because she has always been doing the right thing. She is reliable, and you can't possibly prove otherwise.

Power can corrupt, but you can't claim she is corrupt just because she is powerful. Lacus put money where her mouth is.

Back on topic, just to prove Lacus is more powerful than Relena... Whould anyone in Wing attempt to make a dummy Relena in order to cash in on her popularity?
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Old 2006-07-22, 22:50   Link #64
cyoti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Really, if she wanted the war to end, why didn't she decide to crush all those who would most likely do those evil things once and for all?
Despite what GW would like everyone to believe, crushing all the opposition is not the best path to resolving all conflicts.

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Plus, if you look at the way that she achieved those things, who wouldn't think that what she did was treason? Inciting people to rebellion, stealing ZAFT technology for her own use against Patrick Zala, then doing it all over again in GSD
One could argue that the government of Patrick Zala and Gilbert Dullinidal was already unlawful given their respective involvement in Operation Spitbreak and the Break the World Incident.

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and getting all those people to believe in her just because she's Lacus Clyne and that they don't need to think about it twice, what she thinks/feels/believes is the best for all mankind
And how exactly is the Destiny Plan the best path for humanity? I don't recall Lacus throwing out any alternatives, but nothing is better than something lifted from Brave New World.

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At least [B]Relena had to really work hard for her own influence to be gained,
Any influence she wielded was because she was one of the remaining members of the Sanq Kingdom and the Peacecraft Household. She almost had nothing to do with the surrender of the Earth Sphere and the destruction of OZ.

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And she made doubly sure by becoming a Vice Minister at the end of Wing, so that she could actually see through it that nothing would hinder what she had finally achieved.
And she did absolutely nothing in preventing the Barton Foundation from trying to seize control of the Earth. In fact they did it on her watch so really given her various roles including Head of the Sanq Kingdom, Queen of the World and Vice Minister, I'd rate her job performance as poor.
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Old 2006-07-22, 23:06   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Back on topic, just to prove Lacus is more powerful than Relena... Whould anyone in Wing attempt to make a dummy Relena in order to cash in on her popularity?
No because she isn't a pop star.
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Old 2006-07-23, 02:11   Link #66
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by shaolo
Lacus and company didn't win by overpowering ZAFT alone, thanks to Durandal announcing the Destiny plan and use Requiem to destroy the Arzachel lunar base some of Zaft force defected to her side. If she would with attack before then or Durandal didn't announce the Destiny plan things would have been different.

Im pretty sure all she had to do was send Kira and Athrun to space and that alone would be enaugh to pwn twice the amount of ZAFT forces there, even if they both would be in semi-coma and chatting about old times and other crap. And this is no joke - i really think that would happen, seing how anything labeled as 'enemy' simply blows up by the presence of SF and IJ alone.


The fleet and crap hardly did anything -

Kira - pwned gazzilion of grunts / pwned Legend / pwned Messiah

Athrun - Pwned some grunts / Destiny / Impulse / Minerva / Requiem


Now what the hell is that fleet even needed for ?
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Old 2006-07-23, 02:18   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
And she made doubly sure by becoming a Vice Minister at the end of Wing, so that she could actually see through it that nothing would hinder what she had finally achieved. Or, at least, be sure that everything would be carefully looked over at.

Well, Lacus becomes the new chairman at the end of GSD - why are you overlooking that fact ?
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Old 2006-07-23, 02:28   Link #68
Obi-Wan
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Originally Posted by Skyfall
Well, Lacus becomes the new chairman at the end of GSD - why are you overlooking that fact ?
That is yet to be seen and as of now is just a misconstrued fan rumor. The on-screen text at the end of Final Plus only says she returns to the PLANTs. If she'd been elected Chairman, it would've been included in the text as well. There are myriad reasons she could've gone there, peace talks, military/government restructure talks...you name it.

Besides, think about it. With Cagalli in control of Orb and Lacus in control of the PLANTs, even *IF* the Earth Alliance restructured their military (which Fukuda stated has been decimated after the final events in Destiny), how in blue fuck would they mount any sort of opposition? Also, think for a second that if Lacus was Chairman, would they let her go anywhere without proper security? Gilbert was always seen with several ZAFT military personnel handcuffed to his side. They wouldn't let Lacus go to Orb with just Kira (who's leaves much to be desired as a bodyguard). There are just numerous reasons within the realm of possibilities, even for Fukuda, that make it nearly impossible to suggest Lacus is in that kind of position after Destiny.

No, I say Lacus isn't the Chairman. If anyone, it's probably the woman shaking hands with Cagalli in the epilogue scenes of Destiny. That at least seems logical.
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Old 2006-07-23, 02:37   Link #69
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Quite simply, I can imagine a reasonably peaceful Wing universe even if Relena was killed off early, as she wasn't truly pivotal to the peace.
This is quite true. None of her political actions led to the peace. And none of her speeches were likely to change people's minds (and if they did, then they were simpletons to begin with).

Arguably, the only significant thing that Relena managed to do was to bring about the downfall of Duke Dermail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Back on topic, just to prove Lacus is more powerful than Relena... Whould anyone in Wing attempt to make a dummy Relena in order to cash in on her popularity?
I would say that someone would try to make a dummy. There's a few reasons:
1. Duke Dermail and Marimeia already tried to use Relena as figureheads. It's not much of a stretch to use a dummy instead.
2. Relena seems to be fairly popular with the masses perhaps more out of tradition than out of respect for her.
3. The villains in Wing are idiots. They'd do just about anything.

Of course, anyone trying to cash in on Relena's popularity with a dummy will also fail miserably:
1. Relena is a politician, so her political views should be fairly well known. Any deviation from that view would be treated treated suspiciously.
2. Relena only has one message: Peace through disarmament. Everybody already knows what she will say, so it wouldn't make much difference whether it's a dummy or not. This message is also incapable of being used to leverage more power.
3. She is an ineffectual leader. In spite of her high position, people are quite likely to just ignore what Relena says: Noins' Sanc Kingdom troops certainly paid no heed to the principle of "total pacifism", and the World Government barely noticed it when Marimeia kidnapped her.
4. There's no need to. Anyone who can put together a small army can simply take over Brussels, and the World Government will roll over on command. The usurper can even bask in the knowledge that there aren't even any Gundams left to stop him.
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Old 2006-07-23, 02:42   Link #70
Skyfall
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well ok, maybe not the chairman, but at least its safe to say that she now has some influence in ZAFT, no ? And security isnt something sh is concerned about usually. Hey - Athruns there, so he can target-practice on any oposition Besides i really doubt she said to anyone but her friends where she is going and ORB isnt exactly a hostile place

Maybe she just re-established Clyne faction in the council , but who knows - anything at this point is just a specualtion
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Old 2006-07-23, 03:03   Link #71
grandmaster192
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WTF???

I turn the show off when Shinn got cheated by that bitch Athrun so I didn't see the rest of the episode. Is LAcus really the chairmen??
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Old 2006-07-23, 03:10   Link #72
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
That is yet to be seen and as of now is just a misconstrued fan rumor. The on-screen text at the end of Final Plus only says she returns to the PLANTs. If she'd been elected Chairman, it would've been included in the text as well. There are myriad reasons she could've gone there, peace talks, military/government restructure talks...you name it.
While it isn't outright stated that Lacus became the Chairman, the way that final scene was shot really does imply it. There's three elements that stand out the most. First, Lacus abandoned her usual outfit for a far more dignified robe similar to the one Durandal wore. Note that she was wearing her normal clothing even when she mediated the peace treaty. Second, the deference given her by the ZAFT personnel seems to be greater than the way they treat even Council Members. Finally, this shot is very nicely balanced with the previous shot of Cagalli with her advisors. There are a lot of nice compare and contrast elements if we were seeing the leader of Orb followed by the leader of PLANT. If Lacus was not the Chairman, then the shot loses a lot of its power and coolness factor.

Obviously, this isn't definitive proof, but it is highly suggestive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
Besides, think about it. With Cagalli in control of Orb and Lacus in control of the PLANTs, even *IF* the Earth Alliance restructured their military (which Fukuda stated has been decimated after the final events in Destiny), how in blue fuck would they mount any sort of opposition?
I think that any near future Cosmic Era conflicts will be quite a bit different from the 71 and 73 wars. PLANT no longer has any reason to attack any of the Earth nations, and Orb is even less likely to engage in offensive operations. The Earth Alliance is effectively dead, so none of the main players are likely to start the next war. The next conflict will probably be either a regional Earth war, a PLANT civil war, or a terrorist strike on PLANT. In the longer term, I can see the Coordinator reproduction problem rear its ugly head.


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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
Also, think for a second that if Lacus was Chairman, would they let her go anywhere without proper security? Gilbert was always seen with several ZAFT military personnel handcuffed to his side. They wouldn't let Lacus go to Orb with just Kira (who's leaves much to be desired as a bodyguard). There are just numerous reasons within the realm of possibilities, even for Fukuda, that make it nearly impossible to suggest Lacus is in that kind of position after Destiny.
It's quite possible for the grave scene to take place before Lacus became Chairman. Alternatively, Lacus may have simply persuaded her bodyguards to stay a certain distance from her. After all, she's rather more persuasive than Durandal was. Also, Durandal might well have had reason to be paranoid – he may have thought that Lacus would try to assassinate him; and who knows where Terminal agents might be lurking?
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Old 2006-07-23, 03:28   Link #73
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
WTF???

I turn the show off when Shinn got cheated by that bitch Athrun so I didn't see the rest of the episode.
I wont pretend that i understand what you are talking about
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Old 2006-07-23, 03:31   Link #74
grandmaster192
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Originally Posted by Skyfall
I wont pretend that i understand what you are talking about
Oops! lol. I forgot to ask is Lacus really the chairmen.
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-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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Old 2006-07-23, 03:46   Link #75
4Tran
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Nobody knows for sure. There was just a brief scene that does imply it though. Here's a snippet from it: http://darthlacus.ytmnd.com
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Old 2006-07-23, 03:50   Link #76
grandmaster192
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
Nobody knows for sure. There was just a brief scene that does imply it though. Here's a snippet from it: http://darthlacus.ytmnd.com
ahh man....now I hate Lacus
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-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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Old 2006-07-23, 03:59   Link #77
Obi-Wan
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The on-screen text at the end of Final Plus states two very important things while leaving out anything having to do with Lacus's political statues. First, it says that she helps facilitate the armistice between the PLANTs and Orb. Second, it says she returns to the PLANTs at the request of the Supreme Council. Which is, coincidentally, where we see her in the final scene of Final Plus.

Now, I'm not ruling out Chairman promotion as a possibility, but it just seems unlikely that she would be promoted to Chairman despite several things. She has far less political experience than Cagalli because she did not serve directly under her father during his term. Cagalli worked alongside her father as well as Kisaka, and was concerned enough about the country to get involved with the military projects like the Gundams and the Astrays. And even dispite all this, Cagalli was a total flop of a politician in Destiny, getting pushed around by her own committe of representatives no less.

The "Clyne Faction" was her father's group, and it doesn't look like she was involved in it at the earliest until when she decided to let Kira steal the Freedom, but I'd place it more after her father died and she realized Patrick Zala was a racist egomaniac. She does have good connections with her Terminal group, but she does that with a lot of other people voluntarily helping to keep peace. I don't put it outside the realm of possibility that if she even ran for office as Chairman (it is an elected office, after all) that her popularity would lead to a political victory, but I don't see her taking that position. She's not a politician nor has she ever been one. She's an idol singer for Christ's sake.

For now I'm filing it under "fan rumor" along with many other things.
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Old 2006-07-23, 05:29   Link #78
4Tran
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I agree that the position of Chairman is a matter of speculation, but I tend to be rather enamored with the idea. I think that it makes the story more interesting, allowing it to move in a bunch of new directions. And, as a personal conceit, becoming Chairman fits in very well with my take on Lacus' character.

I disagree that Lacus would even be bad at that job. She doesn't have any less political experience than Cagalli – she always accompanied her father in public, she was a member of the Peace Foundation, and she was under scrutiny as PLANT's "princess" from early on. In addition, Lacus lacks Cagalli's naivety and is far better at social interaction. This, coupled with her deviousness and deceptive appearance, almost makes her too good as a politician. Then again, PLANT may have simply made a mistake in choosing her as Chairman – this idea is also fairly intriguing.

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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
she does that with a lot of other people voluntarily helping to keep peace
I would say that the ability to get people to help you may be the very best quality a politician can have.

You shouldn't put too much faith into labels like "pop idol". After all, Reagan was "just a movie star", and Roosevelt was "just a cripple", and Hitler himself was "just a struggling artist".
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Old 2006-07-23, 06:41   Link #79
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Since we're talking presidents, a lot of presidents appear in public with their family because it makes them appear more human. She may have accompanied her father in public but she was never at council meetings, so public appearances were about the extent. Before she starts giving out free Gundam's and hijacking top secret battleships, she is just a PR girl conducting memorial services and giving her concerts. Cagalli on the other hand is actually invovled with Orb's government, especially on the military side. It's not so far-fetched that she becomes leader of a country in Destiny. To me Lacus's success story is more along the lines of "I know a guy who knows a guy who knows this other guy who can get us this cool battleship so we can start a rebellion." Also, Lacus doesn't strike me as a power hungry individual, so her taking high office like that comes across as extremely out of character.

And I meant that there are a lot of people in Terminal who are there because they want peace, not because they want to be in the Lacus Clyne fan club. Sure it helps that she's a major player in the organization but I don't see her proactively using her name and reputation to recruit people for Terminal. Peace is a pretty common goal during wartime and it doesn't look like there are any other anti-war factions in the CE universe at this time.
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Old 2006-07-23, 07:03   Link #80
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
Now, I'm not ruling out Chairman promotion as a possibility, but it just seems unlikely that she would be promoted to Chairman despite several things. She has far less political experience than Cagalli because she did not serve directly under her father during his term. Cagalli worked alongside her father as well as Kisaka, and was concerned enough about the country to get involved with the military projects like the Gundams and the Astrays. And even dispite all this, Cagalli was a total flop of a politician in Destiny, getting pushed around by her own committe of representatives no less.
Yes, but unlike Cagali whose only achievement was to drive her country in the ground Lacus actually comes out on top of things


political experience means little, since Lacus seems to have the hang of it, while Cagali , despite her experience doesnt understand anything
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