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Old 2006-07-18, 22:36   Link #21
Silent Soldier
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
But oh yes, Shinn was viciously hacked and ruined by the staff of GSD, .
I agree I like Shinn but he got such a raw deal it's not even funny. Poor character development, Lost the spotlight as the main character to Kira and got reduced to an almost mindless attack dog for Dullindal. It's a shame he had potential but it was simply wasted.
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Old 2006-07-18, 22:36   Link #22
Tak
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I find it interesting as how we are still debating over an 'effect' that had no serious uses other than to look pretty. Its only an image folks, a graphic enhancement, nothing more, nothing less.

- Tak
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Old 2006-07-18, 22:39   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasn
Ok I have a question. I read somwhere that Strike Freedom WoL and Stargazer WoL have some connection, and that Destiny WoL where built from stolen plans of Stargazer by Dullindal. Is it true or all just rumor?
The WoL apparently originated from the Martians + Lowe, and Gilbert "borrowed" the technology from them.
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Old 2006-07-18, 22:58   Link #24
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
I like the personal attack hidden within your post. Nice. I guess you want Paper to ban us again?
Please everyone says this about you...He'd have to ban the whole forum...Given our history gimme a break...

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Anyhow I think the final 10 episodes of the series speak much louder volumes about the uselessness of the Destiny Gundam
No ones arguing that...I'm certainley not, but if your gonna grab your soapbox and ridicule don't act as if DESTINY being rendered useless is something that follows any sort of nominal or acceptable progression...As if DESTINY GUNDAM told the producers "I don't wanna be the greatest Gundam ever created anymore I've had enuff of the spotlight dammit! I've turned to coke now OK..."

Quote:
...aside from episode 45 where Minerva is very suspiciously able to beat the entire Earth Forces' moon base using it's incredibly shorthanded three man mobile suit team. In my opinion that's almost as bad as this alleged "god mode" of Kira's that people seem to have fabricated in their mind.
When you say "almost" do mean like "Earth is almost close to the moon" or "Morosawa is almost an idiot..." One is really close to being honest while the other is relatively close...And if anyone has fabricated Kira's God-mode in their head I give them an "F" for effort because we all know it takes none to come to that conclusion...

Quote:
If the after image and/or wing of light was anything other than eye candy, I suspect Shinn would have been able use it to his advantage and put a dent on Justice or Freedom. But oh yes, Shinn was viciously hacked and ruined by the staff of GSD, so the final battles get asterisks next to them and suddenly don't count, am I right? No, on the contrary, I think the after image and wings of light was just something to make Destiny a little different since it's just a mish-mash of other CE Gundams. Giant cannon like Buster. Giant sword like Strike and Impulse. Wings like Freedom. Boomerangs like Justice. I'm surprised it didn't have funnels.
You suspect huh? If WoL was suppose to make DESTINY different and unique why is Kira sporting them a few eps later with basically no fore-warning to the audience?? I remember the countless threads and debates on whether it was WoL because it was never included in the orginal specs...Which is Freedom just getting "the treatment" at the expense of "who gives a damn?" After-images have been proven to be a quite effective technique in every Gundam but DESTINY...DESTINY even shows you why in it's first fight with Athrun...Now if I'm using F-91 (not close to DESTINY's overall power output) as a component for comparison the mirage colloid based after image should have been a vital technique not just railgun fodder (Again I implore you to remember f-91 vs. Iron mask--Shinn is a nerf football if he can't even muster 1% of that in a suit more advanced and suited for it)...How the hell do you even hit something like that? How do you fight not using this technique without any effectiveness? Oh that's right Shinn just forgot how to use it and was just too hot-headed, not to mention it drains his Duracell battery while I-J and S-F run-off sheer WTFness...A totally useless ability that drains the f*ck out of your battery just to look cool?

Quote:
Giant cannon like Buster. Giant sword like Strike and Impulse. Wings like Freedom. Boomerangs like Justice. I'm surprised it didn't have funnels
I'm suprised you noticed all that...Not like Shinn was ever given more than one or two moves, but he's an ace-pilot that's also a dum Coordie I guess(If there is such a thing)...The creative pilot we see up to ep 35 looses all his senses and just boomerang tosses and ASS-chops for the remander of the series even after it proved futile in his Earth battle...I guess he thought all he needed to do was chop harder O_o;;...A modicum of strategy (like the abilities of after-images) is over-rated I guess....
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Old 2006-07-18, 23:04   Link #25
stillmissing
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With regards to the original poster's inquiries, the facts as we currently know them are as follows:

1. Destiny and Strike Freedom both seem project some kind of light from their thrusters beyond conventional exhaust.

2. Among early reports of the new mobile suits towards the end of GSD, mentions were made in several magazines with regards to Destiny and Strike Freedom's "special" propulsion systems, although no details were given much like the official website's brief mention of Infinite Justice and Strike Freedom's "new, more efficient" power sourcers, which were only recently revealed by Morita to be the exact same engine found in both Destiny and Legend.

3. Destiny's "Wings of light" are identified in model kit manuals, but the only purpose directly mentioned is their role in spreading mirage colloid particles. Nevertheless, it's widely assumed that they are connected to the aforementioned unexplained propulsion system.

3. In a pre-Stargazer interview, Stargazer head writer and CE's science advisor, Shigeru Morita mentioned that one of the things he wanted to show in Stargazer was the origin of "some of the technology found in Destiny and Strike Freedom".

4. In the Destiny MSV mook vol 2, a new MSV chart was published which included an unnamed mobile suit built by the DSSD, which would appear in the OVA, which was linked to the development of Strike Freedom on the chart.

5. On the Stargazer site, the Stargazer is listed as having a special interplanetary propulsion system known as Voiture Lumiere which uses light for propulsion. (For the curious, who wonder about the origin of this technology, the original purpose of Genesis seemed to function in a similar manner, prior to Patrick Zala converting it into a doomsday weapon. Lowe uses Genesis Alpha in this capacity to hasten his trip to Mars.)

6. In the Delta Astray manga, the Mars built Delta Astray, which was constructed with assistance from Lowe and the DSSD, also features the Voiture Lumiere propulsion system. However, while the form of its system is quite similar to Destiny's wings of light in appearance, it seems to lack the mirage colloid hologram system. Also, contrary to popular belief, upon close examination, the wings do not appear to be used in a direct offensive capacity.

Make of this information, what you will.

With regards to the Destiny Gundam's after images. While an interesting application of mirage colloid technology, I think comparing them to F91's after images is much like comparing its wings to the V2 Gundam's. The F91's after images were created by shedding off outer layers of its armor. These "after images" actually had mass, which could confuse sensors, and would remain in place after the F91 moved. In short, in a matter of moments, the F91 could fill your field of vision with a dozen copies of itself confusing your eyes and instruments.

In contrast, the Destiny's holograms trail very closely behind it, and are made of light. It's a visual trick that blurs its movements and makes the Destiny appear to move even faster than it already does. It's an interesting optical illusion, but it's clearly inferior to both the F91's application and the mirage colloid cloaking field. However, the use of mirage colloid in such a fashion interferes with phase shift armor, therefore, the Destiny's application makes more sense for a suit designed to be in the thick of combat. While the Destiny's use of holograms is probably very unnerving for an enemy who sees it for the first time, as it makes it seem even faster, in my opinion, it honestly shouldn't be very difficult for a well trained pilot to compensate for the comparitively simple optical illusion. I've seen similar tricks quite often in video games myself, and had little trouble dealing with them.
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Old 2006-07-18, 23:05   Link #26
Tak
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Originally Posted by Silent Soldier
I agree I like Shinn but he got such a raw deal it's not even funny. Poor character development, Lost the spotlight as the main character to Kira and got reduced to an almost mindless attack dog for Dullindal. It's a shame he had potential but it was simply wasted.
You are right. Poor Shin. His character was wasted, but who is really at fault here? Is it Fukuda? Or the fans? It seemed fan reaction for Kira was so overwhelming that Fukuda simply had to give way to Kira. The evidence of this is readily appranent even on official SEED/Destiny sites.

Despite this, Shinn still had potential to become a 'better' character than what he was. His character started as an agony-driven teen and ended as an angony-driven teen. Even the Rau-clone had better character development than him. Sad really, hopefully the movie will do a better job.

Then again, everytime Shinn plays back his sister's msg, it makes me twitch...

- Tak
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Old 2006-07-18, 23:26   Link #27
Silent Soldier
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Originally Posted by Tak
You are right. Poor Shin. His character was wasted, but who is really at fault here? Is it Fukuda? Or the fans? It seemed fan reaction for Kira was so overwhelming that Fukuda simply had to give way to Kira. The evidence of this is readily appranent even on official SEED/Destiny sites.

Despite this, Shinn still had potential to become a 'better' character than what he was. His character started as an agony-driven teen and ended as an angony-driven teen. Even the Rau-clone had better character development than him. Sad really, hopefully the movie will do a better job.

Then again, everytime Shinn plays back his sister's msg, it makes me twitch...

- Tak
Yeah Rey did get more character development then Shinn the original intended main character that's when you know something is wrong but it's true that the Fan demand for Kira to make a come back was overwhelming that's what slightly annoys me here we have a chance to give the spotlight to someone new and some people don't want it. With the message thing you gotta remember he lost his whole family I would hold on to the phone and play the message too it's all he has. I would also be angsty but if his character was done right he could have evolved into more and become a better person maybe been able to get over his family's death. But alas it wasn't meant to be.
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Old 2006-07-18, 23:28   Link #28
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3. Destiny's "Wings of light" are identified in model kit manuals, but the only purpose directly mentioned is their role in spreading mirage colloid particles. Nevertheless, it's widely assumed that they are connected to the aforementioned unexplained propulsion system.
Hmmm...

Maybe Stargazer will give us a glimpse at "Terminal" and it's members who are about as invisible as a father dodging child support...That way I can stop believing every MS they create is stolen right out of ZUES's toy-chest and given to Athrun and Kira...

Quote:
Make of this information, what you will.

With regards to the Destiny Gundam's after images. While an interesting application of mirage colloid technology, I think comparing them to F91's after images is much like comparing its wings to the V2 Gundam's. The F91's after images were created by shedding off outer layers of its armor. These "after images" actually had mass, which could confuse sensors, and would remain in place after the F91 moved. In short, in a matter of moments, the F91 could fill your field of vision with a dozen copies of itself confusing your eyes and instruments.

In contrast, the Destiny's holograms trail very closely behind it, and are made of light. It's a visual trick that blurs its movements and makes the Destiny appear to move even faster than it already does. It's an interesting optical illusion, but it's clearly inferior to both the F91's application and the mirage colloid cloaking field. However, the use of mirage colloid in such a fashion interferes with phase shift armor, therefore, the Destiny's application makes more sense for a suit designed to be in the thick of combat. While the Destiny's use of holograms is probably very unnerving for an enemy who sees it for the first time, as it makes it seem even faster, in my opinion, it honestly shouldn't be very difficult for a well trained pilot to compensate for the comparitively simple optical illusion. I've seen similar tricks quite often in video games myself, and had little trouble dealing with them.
Is there a source (officially) for these finding or just your personal conjecture?? It's just hard for me to believe something that is killing your battery is nothing more than a hack illusion...I don't see how it's clearly inferior given the visual comparisons of abilities (from f-91 movie and certain DESTINY scenes) but an official source will probably shut me up (Probably ^^)...

Runs to get my Gundam official guidebook which I haven't seen in weeks to check this out...
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Old 2006-07-18, 23:31   Link #29
grandmaster192
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Originally Posted by Silent Soldier
Yeah Rey did get more character development then Shinn the original intended main character that's when you know something is wrong but it's true that the Fan demand for Kira to make a come back was overwhelming that's what slightly annoys me here we have a chance to give the spotlight to someone new and some people don't want it. With the message thing you gotta remember he lost his whole family I would hold on to the phone and play the message too it's all he has. I would also be angsty but if his character was done right he could have evolved into more and become a better person maybe been able to get over his family's death. But alas it wasn't meant to be.
Is there any proof that fukuda(whatever the hell his name is) changed the script? I wnat Kira, but I want him as Shinn's rival. Not to replace him as the main character.
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Old 2006-07-18, 23:44   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Silent Soldier
With the message thing you gotta remember he lost his whole family I would hold on to the phone and play the message too it's all he has.
Oh, I completely understand his pain, but isn't the incenstious tendencies and the telephone msg a little bit... too much? Its like Cagali's dad, whose 'after-image' was used to an extent where it became abusive. Leave the dead to rest!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
Is there any proof that fukuda(whatever the hell his name is) changed the script? I wnat Kira, but I want him as Shinn's rival. Not to replace him as the main character.
I don't think we need proof of that, because the development of the series is obvious.

Remember, his wife was the script writer. Both Fukuda and his wife were not Shinn fans (Athrun being her favorite) .

However, Fukuda did admit once that he had Dearka switch sides in SEED because fan reaction was lukewarm, and his signature Gundam, the Buster, wasn't selling too well

So there you go, fans demanded it.

And I always suspected that fans liked Kira not because of his character alone, but possibly because he was coupled rather ingeniously with Lacus Clyne. Seriously, without Lacus, Kira wouldn't have as much 'fanbase/influence' he enjoys today. I admit, if it wasn't for Lacus, I probably wouldn't like Kira as much as I do.

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Old 2006-07-18, 23:52   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Tak
And I always suspected that fans liked Kira not because of his character alone, but possibly because he was coupled rather ingeniously with Lacus Clyne. Seriously, without Lacus, Kira wouldn't have as much 'fanbase/influence' he enjoys today. I admit, if it wasn't for Lacus, I probably wouldn't like Kira as much as I do.
funny... the reason why I don't like Kira as much as I would is precisely because he was paired up with Lacus... prior to him spending 2 years with her, his character actually struggled and was interesting and human..... then GSD happened....

but then again I'm probably a minority since I'm a shinn / cagalli fan...
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Old 2006-07-18, 23:58   Link #32
grandmaster192
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Originally Posted by Tak
And I always suspected that fans liked Kira not because of his character alone, but possibly because he was coupled rather ingeniously with Lacus Clyne. Seriously, without Lacus, Kira wouldn't have as much 'fanbase/influence' he enjoys today. I admit, if it wasn't for Lacus, I probably wouldn't like Kira as much as I do.

- Tak
Thats interesting. I always felt that Kira was liked because of his Freedom gundam. And how mutch ass it kicked. I realy don't see how Lacus has anything to do with Kira and people liking him. It's not like Lacus is more popular then Kira or anything.
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Old 2006-07-19, 00:00   Link #33
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funny... the reason why I don't like Kira as much as I would is precisely because he was paired up with Lacus... prior to him spending 2 years with her, his character actually struggled and was interesting and human..... then GSD happened....

Thank you at least someone else feels the same way I do. It's like Kira lost all his struggle and his fire. In seed he was an interesting complex character in destiny he was an emotionless robot who was too coky and sure of himself. I don't know if it was bad writing and development or spending two years with Lacus but ugh man what happend to you Kira Yamoto you used to be such a interesting and great character.
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Old 2006-07-19, 00:04   Link #34
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Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
Thats interesting. I always felt that Kira was liked because of his Freedom gundam. And how mutch ass it kicked. I realy don't see how Lacus has anything to do with Kira and people liking him. It's not like Lacus is more popular then Kira or anything.
I don't like Freedom as much as I like Kira the character. I'd like Kira just as much if he had piloted, dare I say it, DESTINY.

And while Kira's character failed to develop in Destiny, my theory is somthing like this: Sooner or later, make the pain stop. Come on, the boy fought a hard fight for the kind of peace in life he enjoyed in Destiny. By all means, he deserved it! Geez, how much more are we supposed to torture him I feel kind of sad they forced him out of retirement to fight again in Destiny. Sure, poor Shinn, but poor Kira, too!

Personally I see Kira and Lacus to be the greatest match in (animated) fiction, and at this point, I can't see how the two of them will survive without the other. But thats just me.

So there you go, wanna beat Kira? Beat Lacus first, and everything else will be easy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
It's not like Lacus is more popular then Kira or anything.
Doujinshi, my good sir. The testimonials to a character's popularity lies in Doujins man, Doujins!


- Tak
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Old 2006-07-19, 00:10   Link #35
grandmaster192
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Originally Posted by Tak
I don't like Freedom as much as I like Kira the character. I'd like Kira just as much if he had piloted, dare I say it, DESTINY.

Personally I see Kira and Lacus to be the greatest match in (animated) fiction, and at this point, I can't see how the two of them will survive without the other. But thats just me.

- Tak
lol The Destiny is to cool for kira. Only Shinn is skilled enough to pilot it! j/k I say Lacus is just a Releena peacraft rip off. lol. And Kira is gundams vash the stampede! lol. Thats just my opion though.
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Old 2006-07-19, 00:15   Link #36
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Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
Lacus is just a Releena peacraft rip off. lol. And Kira is gundams vash the stampede! lol. Thats just my opion though.
No my good sir! I protest. I must say, while Lacus is a bit of a Relena, she is also a bit of a Lin Min May (of Macross fame) in addition to her dual personality, which is nothing less than domineering! Cmon, she is easily the most powerful woman in the Gundam universe, and one of the most manipulative at that. I like her because she controls her character so well, its amazing! That and she isn't as naive and stupid like Relena. Woman's got a plan set up for herself. She does not stall war by wasting time on peace talks! She stalls war by bringing a friggin fleet into the fray. Now that is what I call, bold!

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Old 2006-07-19, 00:15   Link #37
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Is there a source (officially) for these finding or just your personal conjecture?? It's just hard for me to believe something that is killing your battery is nothing more than a hack illusion...I don't see how it's clearly inferior given the visual comparisons of abilities (from f-91 movie and certain DESTINY scenes) but an official source will probably shut me up (Probably ^^)...

Runs to get my Gundam official guidebook which I haven't seen in weeks to check this out...

OK from GUNDAM Official Guide 2002:

The F-91 can dissipate the incredible heat produced by it's bio-computer by burning off the outer layers of it's armor, leaving a trail of afterimages...

Which means it's after images are heat based which confuse sensors that read heat signitures...DESTINY's WoL propulsion systems with the use of Mirage Colloid is light-based which serves to fool and disorient the actual pilot...Now I've never seen Kira rely on sensors more than his own abilities (neither Athrun or Shinn for that matter unless we are talking rear attacks where that red-alert goes off--Heine obviously doesn't give a damn about this warning^^)....So while F-91 is better at fooling AI based sensory DESTINY is better suited for confusing the pilots actual perceptions...Which do you think is worse?? (To pilots who use their SEED hightened senses more than their AI sensory--not to mention anyone else) In any event my prior analysis doesn't seem to be rendered invalid because of this...However in visual presentation it still seems to me DESTINYs after-images could and should pose a more potent threat...
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Old 2006-07-19, 00:16   Link #38
stillmissing
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Is there a source (officially) for these finding or just your personal conjecture?? It's just hard for me to believe something that is killing your battery is nothing more than a hack illusion...I don't see how it's clearly inferior given the visual comparisons of abilities (from f-91 movie and certain DESTINY scenes) but an official source will probably shut me up (Probably ^^)...
Do you mean my last two sentences? Those are clearly conjecture and my personal opinion just as I labeled them. I can only speak from my own limited understanding and experiences. Perhaps, if such a system were constructed for real, it would prove much more troublesome than I imagine. Similarly, as this story takes place in a fictional world, my experiences may simply be absolutely meaningless. It's certainly not something I can express with certainty.

If you meant the workings of either system, well, F91's mechanics are mentioned in a number of books. I think the English R1 DVD has notes as well, but I can't confirm at the moment. Of course, it's not mentioned in the movie itself, but post animation justifications are hardly a recent Gundam invention. They've been doing that since the original show in 1979.

As for Destiny, there's simply not much information. We more or less have what the model kit booklets provided which is that it's a system that spreads mirage colloid behind the suit, and through use of a computer control system, projects and shapes holographic after images within the colloid field.

As for comparison based on the animation, it's just as I said, F91 leaves a number of "solid" images behind and keeps moving. Destiny's are a trail that follow it directly and don't lag very far. As they are holograms, they could fool optical sensors, or the human eye, but I don't think radar waves bounce off light, unlike the F91's which are made of armor layers and have mass.

I imagine that for Destiny to truly take advantage of its own effect, it would have to move in extremely erratic patterns and avoid ever flying in straight lines, or simple curves. That way, it's trail would cross over itself, making it difficult to determine which way the Destiny is moving. However, doing this would probably make combat rather difficult for its pilot, I would think. But again, this part is just my opinion.

If you are curious, in the BonBon manga adaptation, unlike in the anime, Destiny seems to actually be able to leave images behind, although they are still light based. I'm not sure about the mechanics there, since colloid fields have to be maintained by a magnetic field, but it's fun to see that at any rate.
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Old 2006-07-19, 00:25   Link #39
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
No my good sir! I protest. I must say, while Lacus is a bit of a Relena, she is also a bit of a Lin Min May (of Macross fame) in addition to her dual personality, which is nothing less than domineering! Cmon, she is easily the most powerful woman in the Gundam universe, and one of the most manipulative at that. I like her because she controls her character so well, its amazing! That and she isn't as naive and stupid like Relena. Woman's got a plan set up for herself. She does not stall war by wasting time on peace talks! She stalls war by bringing a friggin fleet into the fray. Now that is what I call, bold!

- Tak
I'm not realy sure what you mean by Lacus is the most powerful women. Stellar is the most powerful. She was owning with her Destroy.
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Old 2006-07-19, 00:31   Link #40
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
I'm not realy sure what you mean by Lacus is the most powerful women. Stellar is the most powerful. She was owning with her Destroy.
Except under Lacus are two of the strongest mobile suits in the CE universe, Justice and Freedom (and later Destiny by Final Plus, ROFL). Don't forget, it was the Freedom who in turn 'owned' Destroy (and the Destiny later, tearing several DESTROY to shreads)

You are missing the point. It is not Lacus' supposed piloting skills that made her powerful, its her resourcefulness. Stellar on the other hand may be a better pilot, but she had always been someone's lapdog (Four Murasame, anyone?). Her death was most unfortunate. I didn't like Luna as much as I did Stellar

- Tak
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