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Old 2006-07-19, 00:32   Link #41
wingdarkness
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@stillmissing - Already beat you to it...

Quote:
imagine that for Destiny to truly take advantage of its own effect, it would have to move in extremely erratic patterns and avoid ever flying in straight lines, or simple curves. That way, it's trail would cross over itself, making it difficult to determine which way the Destiny is moving. However, doing this would probably make combat rather difficult for its pilot, I would think.
In any event my primary thought is that it was severly underutilized in tact for whatever reasons....For Shinn fans an obvious nerfage in terms of progression and cosistency, for Shinn haters he's obviously not smart enuff to incorporate the advanatages of this despite being the "ACE of ZAFT" or the 3rd best pilot in the known universe...whatever I won't argue it...I agree with your quote though...
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Old 2006-07-19, 01:20   Link #42
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lol, I knew this thread is going to " I like him better then the other one" thread.
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Old 2006-07-19, 01:25   Link #43
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Originally Posted by mikyu
lol, I knew this thread is going to " I like him better then the other one" thread.
Imagine that, and the original thread merely questioned the technological background of WoL

- Tak
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Old 2006-07-19, 01:58   Link #44
stillmissing
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@wingdarkness

I've been thinking this over in my head, and I'm going to recant on my earlier statement with regards to the ease of compensating for the effect. I was thinking too much of human vs machine, and failing to take into account that no amount of clever programming can really match human ingenuity. So, I did a little thought experiment to see if I could find a decent way to take advantage of Destiny's effect.

A direct attack in which the Destiny charges forward, only to reverse course and withdraw into its own trail to substitute a rifle shot for an expected melee attack could be a rather effective tactic.

That being said, the Destiny is so powerful in proportion to almost all the MS it faces on the battlefield, that I can understand why this isn't really taken advantage of. It's needlessly complex when the Destiny can easily take care of most threats without using that sort of tactic.
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Old 2006-07-19, 02:00   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
When you say "almost" do mean like "Earth is almost close to the moon" or "Morosawa is almost an idiot..." One is really close to being honest while the other is relatively close...And if anyone has fabricated Kira's God-mode in their head I give them an "F" for effort because we all know it takes none to come to that conclusion...
Well I say "almost" because it just seems to me everything that rattles off BS about Kira and his alleged "god mode" seem to be rabid Shinn supporters who think he got the shaft in the finale, when it was evident from perhaps even before the mid point that Shinn had no chance at carrying the story on his own. There is more base to Kira getting away with what he did, which at times is extreme but not inconceivable. Whereas Shinn's course of action would have ended him up right in the same place, or possibly dead...holding Gilbert's hand every step of the way. The direction they went with Kira is not so hard to understand. Shinn was one dimensional for the entire series. I know you are a Shinn fan, and you'll just have to accept he did it to himself. We all gotta deal sometime. Time to move on.

Quote:
You suspect huh? If WoL was suppose to make DESTINY different and unique why is Kira sporting them a few eps later with basically no fore-warning to the audience?? I remember the countless threads and debates on whether it was WoL because it was never included in the orginal specs...Which is Freedom just getting "the treatment" at the expense of "who gives a damn?" After-images have been proven to be a quite effective technique in every Gundam but DESTINY...DESTINY even shows you why in it's first fight with Athrun...Now if I'm using F-91 (not close to DESTINY's overall power output) as a component for comparison the mirage colloid based after image should have been a vital technique not just railgun fodder (Again I implore you to remember f-91 vs. Iron mask--Shinn is a nerf football if he can't even muster 1% of that in a suit more advanced and suited for it)...How the hell do you even hit something like that? How do you fight not using this technique without any effectiveness? Oh that's right Shinn just forgot how to use it and was just too hot-headed, not to mention it drains his Duracell battery while I-J and S-F run-off sheer WTFness...A totally useless ability that drains the f*ck out of your battery just to look cool?
Again, if the after image was meant to be any sort of tactical advantage, it would've been used somewhere along the line. I already said the first fight against Athrun when he is 1) in a GOUF and 2) trying to escape is not hardly a fair example. The GOUF would need to be capable of beating Destiny in the first place for the after image to be considered advantageous. However this is CE and by default a grunt MS has no shot against a Gundam-class mobile suit. Unless you're the Chaos Gundam, in which case I think we all agree is shit and deserved to be one of the few Gundams in franchise history to get downed by grunts.

In fact the only time Shinn uses the after image to any degree of success is against grunts. At Orb before he faces Cagalli/Kira, he uses it to take out the Murasames that guard Cagalli, and at Heaven's Base he uses it to take out two Destroys, which I consider very large grunt MS given their extreme uselessness outside of the original one (even LUNAMARIA beat one, and she is one of the most sucky pilots in CE, probably right above the Astray girls or Miguel). You compare it to Formula 91 but is that really a fair comparison? F-91 uses after images to an extreme advantage against a real opponent, not against a pussy cannon fodder GOUF. Even if the pilot was Athrun, good pilots have rarely done well in regular mobile suits against a Gundam (think Miguel vs Strike, Rau vs Freedom...Athrun's ZAKU vs Abyss during the Gundamjack). It goes without saying that the GOUF was a goner with or without Destiny using it's after images, and the same goes for the Destroy and the Murasames. Seabook was fighting against a poweful mobile armor that kicked a lot of ass before he was able to beat it. Destiny's after images hardly live up to F-91's.

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I'm suprised you noticed all that...Not like Shinn was ever given more than one or two moves, but he's an ace-pilot that's also a dum Coordie I guess(If there is such a thing)...The creative pilot we see up to ep 35 looses all his senses and just boomerang tosses and ASS-chops for the remander of the series even after it proved futile in his Earth battle...I guess he thought all he needed to do was chop harder O_o;;...A modicum of strategy (like the abilities of after-images) is over-rated I guess....
Well I have a lot to say about Shinn's creativeness (or rather, lack of creativeness). If you'd like to have that conversation I suggest we move to another thread, savvy? We already hi-jacked this one enough with the after image thing.
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Old 2006-07-19, 02:25   Link #46
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
Now my question is that when the Strike freedom shoots his dragoons off, does the Strike Freedom become faster? Would it be as fast as the Destiny? Sorry but I no pic to show the Strike freedom Wing of light.
I don't see Strike Freedom's "wings of light" (nor Destiny's) as contributing much to the suit's actual speed. Because if that was the case, everytime they're turned on we should see a boost in speed. Instead, there's scenes where Strike Freedom (as well as Destiny) either not moving or moving at relatively normal speed while these "wings of light" are on.

So I think Strike Freedom's "wings of light" are mostly for cosmetic purpose. The same thing with Destiny's except its "wings of light" seem bigger, so they could have more of an impact on the speed than Strike Freedom's. But overall, I believe even Destiny's speed comes mostly from its main thruster, not the "wings of light" themselves.

Oh, and I guess Destiny's "wings of light" could have something to do with its mirrage colloid scattering ability.
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Old 2006-07-19, 03:27   Link #47
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Originally Posted by monstert
Because if that was the case, everytime they're turned on we should see a boost in speed. Instead, there's scenes where Strike Freedom (as well as Destiny) either not moving or moving at relatively normal speed while these "wings of light" are on.
So now you are trying to apply real world physics to argue wings of light have no effect.
How do you explain V2 then? (I'm not sure if it's really named V2, but I'm talking about some other gundam with wings of light) I haven't seen the series but I saw someone posts a gif of it long ago, and everybody praised it for being so powerful and fast because of wings of light, yet in that gif I also saw moments when V2 was standing still even though its wings of light were fully spread out...
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Old 2006-07-19, 03:45   Link #48
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So what? It doesn't prove anything since Victory's wings of light can also bend and change size. So maybe minovsky science does something to make it possible for V2 to stand still. Whatever, but face it, Victory 2's wings of light differ (so far) from CE's. So it has no bearing on this topic.

And I never said wings of light have no effect.
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Old 2006-07-19, 04:03   Link #49
Arimfe
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Originally Posted by monstert
So what? It doesn't prove anything since Victory's wings of light can also bend and change size. So maybe minovsky science does something to make it possible for V2 to stand still. Whatever, but face it, Victory 2's wings of light differ (so far) from CE's. So it has no bearing on this topic.

And I never said wings of light have no effect.
Alright, I'll buy that (I have to since I havn't seen the series ).
I just thought since you so logically applied real world physics to Destiny you should also apply same logic to other gundams and then a shitload of V2 fans would be disagreeing with you. But Victory has minovsky and apparently that makes it imune to real world physics. Fine with me
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Old 2006-07-19, 04:28   Link #50
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
Well I say "almost" because it just seems to me everything that rattles off BS about Kira and his alleged "god mode" seem to be rabid Shinn supporters who think he got the shaft in the finale, when it was evident from perhaps even before the mid point that Shinn had no chance at carrying the story on his own. There is more base to Kira getting away with what he did, which at times is extreme but not inconceivable. Whereas Shinn's course of action would have ended him up right in the same place, or possibly dead...holding Gilbert's hand every step of the way. The direction they went with Kira is not so hard to understand. Shinn was one dimensional for the entire series. I know you are a Shinn fan, and you'll just have to accept he did it to himself. We all gotta deal sometime. Time to move on.
The sentence in bold exposes what is needed...If your willing to say that; put that in words, then I have my requiem...No need for another categorical re-hash of this...God knows if I put anymore flesh on this skeleton they'll need a forklift to get the body out of the house...I'll let you have your snarky comeback but just remember this neutralizer...The same pilot who knew he was incapable of beating Freedom without a strategy is the same pilot who totally ignores his Battle of ORB beat-down and does nothing in the way of planning when his character development prior to that point suggests otherwise...In the end a 1-dimensional character (who was one the entire series) still ended up as champion of this series, and that's worth the bucket of change you spend on it...



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Again, if the after image was meant to be any sort of tactical advantage, it would've been used somewhere along the line....

You compare it to Formula 91 but is that really a fair comparison? F-91 uses after images to an extreme advantage against a real opponent, not against a pussy cannon fodder GOUF. Even if the pilot was Athrun, good pilots have rarely done well in regular mobile suits against a Gundam (think Miguel vs Strike, Rau vs Freedom...Athrun's ZAKU vs Abyss during the Gundamjack). It goes without saying that the GOUF was a goner with or without Destiny using it's after images, and the same goes for the Destroy and the Murasames. Seabook was fighting against a poweful mobile armor that kicked a lot of ass before he was able to beat it. Destiny's after images hardly live up to F-91's.
And that was my point, they didn't live up to any standard(I mean this dives into the nerfing again, but whatever I can't give all the blind-mice slices of cheese)...Like I said you tell me when Kira and company use sensors over skills...You tell me...A visual anamoly such as DESTINY's WoL based after-images is comparable when in the UC pilots (non Newtypes aswell) had to rely on automatic sensory items (as in F-91's case) over there own skills....In the case of Iron Mask in his RAFFLESIA he had every sensory funtion hardwired into his brain via fiber optic cables(I mean this mofo had all the AI in his brain and couldn't hit F-91, I'm just talking about people using their eyes to gauge DESTINY)...What's worse?? Haing your sensors totally screwed by a Gundam that can send off heat signitures in different directions or having your actual vision screwed and disoriented as a pilot by DESTINY's after-images when none of the fighters who are Coordies use sensors to begin with?? (Not in any overbearing manner surely as evidenced in the show)...Think about that...BTW I'll ignore all the Athrun stuff because frankly it's all too easy...


Quote:
Well I have a lot to say about Shinn's creativeness (or rather, lack of creativeness). If you'd like to have that conversation I suggest we move to another thread, savvy? We already hi-jacked this one enough with the after image thing.
The after-image thing is apart of the WoL thing so we're all legal...it's used in conjunction with the Mirage Colloid technology that allows DESTINY to leave a trail of visible "cool-looking" after-images...And finally, as for Shinn's creativity...you need only ask the pallbearer at Auel's funeral about it...and perhaps he will share with you some info on how to get some Gundam scrap metal from a certain legendary MS located in pieces near the arctic snow...
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Old 2006-07-19, 04:40   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
The Strike freedom was made after the Destiny...
Now, this really doesn't make any sense. Several of its weapons, including the Super DRAGOONS, have a lower number than others, like Chaos Gunbarrels, implying that they were designed first. Their own model numbers also imply that. It's far more likely that they were ZAFT designs which were scrapped before they came to fruition due to the Junius Treaty, and were replaced by the second stage suits, then revitalized by Terminal and built with up-to-date tech.

This is of course nothing but speculation, but as far as I know there's no official word. Maybe Stargazer will give it to us.
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Old 2006-07-19, 05:04   Link #52
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God, must history repeat themselves? I swear I've seen at least 5 variations of this thread, some better, some worse.

My opinion is that since we've seen little signs throughout the entire series that Kira, Shinn, Athrun, etc utilizing calculative battle techniques, strategical planning, and planned teamwork in face of greater threats, the whole issue of Shinn's inability to utilize WoL due to random speculations is pretty much null. (( This is of course barring Shinn's ONS with Rey over Freedom, Destroy grunting and Athrun's shitty leadership skills. ))

And this comparison with F91 needs to go away. There's no way to evaluate something that is so close, and yet to so universally different, not unless there's clear cut MS specs that can tell us up to the decimals how fast is Destiny compared to F91 and the scientific workings of the whole after-images. Of course, that WILL NEVER happen.
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Old 2006-07-19, 05:12   Link #53
wingdarkness
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And this comparison with F91 needs to go away. There's no way to evaluate something that is so close, and yet to so universally different, not unless there's clear cut MS specs that can tell us up to the decimals how fast is Destiny compared to F91 and the scientific workings of the whole after-images. Of course, that WILL NEVER happen.
Well that's why we call it making an argument...It's never gonna be perfect but it can build you a bridge to cross...Like I said what's worse fooling your eyes (DESTINY) or fooling your AI's (F-91)?? I'm not 100% percent sure of the answer but I think I have an idea...And with that idea I'll make a case...
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Old 2006-07-19, 08:01   Link #54
Obi-Wan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Big paragraph extravagantly worded to say nothing more than "Kira sucks"
Mr. Owl, how many licks does it take to get to the center of the brain someone who views GSD through anti-Kira blinders?

-The world may never know.

Quote:
And that was my point, they didn't live up to any standard(I mean this dives into the nerfing again, but whatever I can't give all the blind-mice slices of cheese)...Like I said you tell me when Kira and company use sensors over skills...You tell me...A visual anamoly such as DESTINY's WoL based after-images is comparable when in the UC pilots (non Newtypes aswell) had to rely on automatic sensory items (as in F-91's case) over there own skills....In the case of Iron Mask in his RAFFLESIA he had every sensory funtion hardwired into his brain via fiber optic cables(I mean this mofo had all the AI in his brain and couldn't hit F-91, I'm just talking about people using their eyes to gauge DESTINY)...What's worse?? Haing your sensors totally screwed by a Gundam that can send off heat signitures in different directions or having your actual vision screwed and disoriented as a pilot by DESTINY's after-images when none of the fighters who are Coordies use sensors to begin with?? (Not in any overbearing manner surely as evidenced in the show)...Think about that...BTW I'll ignore all the Athrun stuff because frankly it's all too easy...
So Destiny uses it's after image to beat a handful of grunt MS and suddenly it has the right to be mentioned in the same sentence as F-91? Please, knock off the condescending bullshit. You and I both know that's a ridiculous assertion, but perhaps you really believe this nonsense flowing out of your mouth. By all means continue to stand there and lie to yourself because you're still bitter over how Destiny ended up, I'm not going to stop you.



Quote:
...and perhaps he will share with you some info on how to get some Gundam scrap metal from a certain legendary MS located in pieces near the arctic snow...
But round 2 (and round 3, 4, 5, and so on for that matter) showed that was just a fluke and you damn well know that.
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Old 2006-07-19, 08:17   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan

But round 2 (and round 3, 4, 5, and so on for that matter) showed that was just a fluke and you damn well know that.

That must be one damn good fluke then.
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Old 2006-07-19, 10:38   Link #56
Tak
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I propose we goto the nearest arcade, find a FED vs. ZAFT II machine, and settle our character egos there. If not, there is always Fed Vs. Zaft for the PS2.

What a great way to resolve our differences, don't you think?

- Tak (I don't need a legion of Gundams, just give me Kos-Mos)
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Old 2006-07-19, 11:34   Link #57
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dammit...stupid double post
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Old 2006-07-19, 11:37   Link #58
Mr. DJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
That way I can stop believing every MS they create is stolen right out of ZUES's toy-chest and given to Athrun and Kira...
I thought Gundam Wing took all of the Zues toys I guess he had a hidden stash

(Kos-Mos seems like a Xeno version of Unicron except she doesn't devour planets and isn't the size of one <.<)
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Old 2006-07-19, 11:57   Link #59
Tak
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz
(Kos-Mos seems like a Xeno version of Unicron except she doesn't devour planets and isn't the size of one <.<)
Well no, she doesn't devour planets, she simply destroys them, alongside an entire galaxy wherever 'that' particular planet is located.

Her final weapon system in ver. 4 is god(dess)ly. That is what I call a small, compact and COMPLETE package

You know, the E.S. Dinah could be quite a match against the Freedom (Then again, we are comparing apples & oranges here...)

- Tak (Btw, you get to fight the Weltall from Xenogears in Xenosaga III, its a pretty difficult ES to beat )

Last edited by Tak; 2006-07-19 at 12:08.
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Old 2006-07-19, 12:10   Link #60
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eep o.O....actual Weltall or the upgrade version called Xenogear (either way sounds nasty)
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