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Old 2006-12-04, 03:41   Link #241
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by Kefit View Post

And indeed, this episode saw Kirino go Kaede and threaten to activate the Sakura Tree! Man, this show seems determined to shit all over Kirino as much as it possibly can. Riko steals Haruhiko away from her when they are kids. Then she leaves, allowing Kirino to get close to Haruhiko once again. Then she comes back and steals him away again! And to cap things off, Haruhiko doesn't seem to care about Kirino in the slightest anymore, and Riko broke their promise! No wonder this girl has such a shattered sense of self esteem. I can only wonder what is next.
Well, actually Riko did not steal anything away - Haruhiko's heart belonged to her ever since back then. (besides, Haruhiko does not belong to anyone - it is his choise to belong to some one, and in this case it's Riko. Kirino can't have Haruhiko stolen from her, because he was never her's to begin with, and as far as we know Haruhiko has never done anything to make her believe otherwise.

About the prommise (i have not seen ep9 yet) - as i gather it was a prommise not to use Gift in order to sway Haruhiko's feelings, right? Well, gues what - she never did! Haruhiko had no idea about her Gift prior to 1 day ago. Did this affect his feelings in any way? The mere fact that Riko's Gift worked as intended without him knowing shows where Haruhiko's heart has been all along.

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Speaking of which, I am rather surprised by Haruhiko's behavior in this episode. As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, throughout the series he has shown a considerable lack of thought or care regarding Kirino. This is a normal, understandable reaction for a guy who has suddenly fallen head over heels in love. But as of this episode (and possibly in 8 too), Haruhiko's head is no longer in the clouds. No longer is he simply ignoring Kirino, along with the rest of the world. Now his behavior towards her is of carefully calculated disregard, with no sign of remorse or distress on his part. While this calculated disregard is probably among the healthiest paths open to Haruhiko right now, I never, ever want to be friends with a guy who can so easily throw away a close friendship he has had his entire life without any signs of regret. I'm really pretty shocked that Haruhiko is capable of doing so.
Suddenly fallen in love? He has been in love with Riko ever since back then and has held on to his feelings for 7(?) years - thats hardly "suddenly". Hes ignoring Kirino? True dat. Other action he can take(which i expected of him to be honest to some extent) is to stand up for Riko and tell Kirino to do a reality check and get off his case. Which one is better? I don't know, but i myself would have possibly chosen the second one. I like to keep things straight and clear in cases like these. And he has been pretty straightforward about his feelings.

Like relentlessflame stated - Kirino never wanted to be "just a friend", and if he starts acting friendly towards her now it will simply give her false hope, and in the long run that would make the sitation even worse.

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I don't intend to fault Haruhiko for the way he is handling this. Actually, the problem is that he is coping with it too well. He is not struggling with any feelings of distress over having to shove Kirino away. Hell, he seems to barely give it a thought. It is a healthy solution to his problem, but he is carrying it out far more easily than he really should be able to.
The thing is, there is only so much he can do for Kirino right now - what Kirino wants from him is not a friendly shoulder to cry on, or a friendly conversation from him. She wants to be his lover, not a friend, and he can't help her in this regard.

As for him not struggling - well, he has finaly gotten his 7 years old feelings returned, so i can kinda understand that he would care for Riko first and foremost. And the situation certainly would not be improved should he also act stressed and uncomfortable.

Strange, isnt it? We bash all(most) harem leads for being too nice towards all the girls while taking ages to choose one and leading everyone on for god knows how long in the end hurting every one.(To quote Suzuka:"Are you sure you are not mistaking the person you should be nice to?") And now that we have one that is 100% sure of his feelings and acts upon it without second thought, never giving any false hopes to the other girls, we still have some one coming out and bashing him

Ok, now to actually watch ep9 ...

Not saying i do not feel sorry for Kirino - she has spent all these years trying to get his atention, but you can't blame Haruhiko for the fact that his Heart belongs to Riko and acting upon it. Kirino is getting the short end of the deal here, but it really isn't any ones fault.

I might come off sounding cruel and inconsiderate towards Kirino saying this, but that is the reality of her situation, as was never my intention to step on some ones nerves with this post, even if it seems written in a rather harsh tone
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Old 2006-12-04, 04:07   Link #242
Kefit
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I think you are missing my point.

Haruhiko is doing nothing wrong. He is doing the healthy thing by shoving Kirino away. But I don't understand how he does it so easily. He has been close friends with this girl for years, and breaking apart friendships like this is painful. This is a problem with the writing and character consistency, not a moral judgement of Haruhiko's actions.

And I already stated that my use of phrasing like "Riko stole Haruhiko from Kirino" was to better reflect Kirino's perspective of the situation. All of the crap is hitting her, so it only makes sense to look at the crap from her perspective. If nothing else, it helps makes things a bit more dramatic

And sure, Riko's breaking of the promise may have neither been intentional or against the original spirit of the promise, but it nonetheless adds insult to injury for Kirino. It is just one more way in which she percieves she has been screwed over.

Also, don't worry about being cruel and inconsiderate towards Kirino - you aren't. The show itself is doing that. You are simply stating the truth. Kirino is simply going to have to deal with this, and the sooner the better. My problem is that I have seen plenty of begrieved bishoujos move on with their lives and become strong and independent after heartbreak. In fact, I have seen it done extremely well, for instance in Lamune. But unfortunately, the quality of writing and character depth in this show simply isn't up to snuff to make a development like that memorable. It is going to have to do more, although as I already said, I have no idea what.
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Old 2006-12-04, 04:33   Link #243
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You are right on that - from Kirino's pov it indeed might seem that Riko is stealing Haruhiko away and all the other crap that is happening to her is some sort of Riko's fault

I gues i can also see where you are coming from saying he is shoving Kirino aside too easily... but we will have to wait and see - maybe he is just controlling his emotions for the moment in order to make the situation work out for the best It certainly wouldn't help if he as well would act all angsty upon it... maybe he will let us in to his thoughts about the sitation regarding Kirino later at some point ... perhaps while talking to Riko... tho this is unlikely to happen

Yes, it would indeed be painful to break a long-term friendship this way in most cases... tho not allways if some conditions are met.(speeking from experience here). Lets say that he might feel angry towards Kirino for lashing out at Riko(for things that are not Riko's fault at all)... in this case he wouldn't feel sorry for her. (at least not at that specific moment). And as for it being OOC for Haruhiko... i am not sure... he has never shown a great deal of concern toards Kirino (wether this speaks good or bad of him), so i don't know...

Oh well, we will just have to wait and see where this goes
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Old 2006-12-04, 04:54   Link #244
npal
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Originally Posted by Kefit View Post
I think you are missing my point.

Haruhiko is doing nothing wrong. He is doing the healthy thing by shoving Kirino away. But I don't understand how he does it so easily. He has been close friends with this girl for years, and breaking apart friendships like this is painful. This is a problem with the writing and character consistency, not a moral judgement of Haruhiko's actions.

And I already stated that my use of phrasing like "Riko stole Haruhiko from Kirino" was to better reflect Kirino's perspective of the situation. All of the crap is hitting her, so it only makes sense to look at the crap from her perspective. If nothing else, it helps makes things a bit more dramatic

And sure, Riko's breaking of the promise may have neither been intentional or against the original spirit of the promise, but it nonetheless adds insult to injury for Kirino. It is just one more way in which she percieves she has been screwed over.

Also, don't worry about being cruel and inconsiderate towards Kirino - you aren't. The show itself is doing that. You are simply stating the truth. Kirino is simply going to have to deal with this, and the sooner the better. My problem is that I have seen plenty of begrieved bishoujos move on with their lives and become strong and independent after heartbreak. In fact, I have seen it done extremely well, for instance in Lamune. But unfortunately, the quality of writing and character depth in this show simply isn't up to snuff to make a development like that memorable. It is going to have to do more, although as I already said, I have no idea what.
*nod nod

And that was my main point, the characters are not developed properly. I mean, DaCapo had put more thought to that. Although I had some gripes here and there about Sakura's resolution, it made sense. Aisia's case made much more sense but she wasn't actually the third party in the relationship so that doesn't count that much. Kotori had it pretty simple, not the huge investment of a childhood friend. Now, seeing as the company CAN have good writers, they might as well use them in this series, too.

And speaking of Lamune, the girl in question was able to be friends with the guy for a really short while, so yes, I considered the tearful resolution believable, although it was pretty sad.

The case with Gift is that they have pushed a character too far, the stakes are very high from Kirino's point, and Haruhiko, while doing one of the few things he can do, doesn't do much to help (hmm... I've seen that before... although he's fundamentally different from someone else I remember). Now, THAT approach could have helped in the past indeed, and there wouldn't be a problem now, but it's too little, too late and at the worst possible moment, so YES, the least I expect-and want to see- is a *very* serious outburst or some degree of chronic (maybe outright major, maybe not) depression (depends on the personality involved). I say the least, and I believe those are pretty healthy, considering the homo- or suicidal and vengeful alternatives I can think of. Yes, I think it's close to impossible for someone in Kirino's case to just rise up and take the challenge with little ill effects whatsoever. In Lamune's case, that girl may have had her share of psychopathological symptoms before getting to where she was at the end of the series.

So all in all, the series has to let go of its miraculous happiness theme and take a plunge to the reality of human psychology. I mean, they're doing it great with Haruhiko, he's in love, he's blind to everything else, he got his feelings returned finally so he's inconsiderate to anything not related to that, he's a f****ng bastard if you ask me, but yes, it happens and even if someone informs you that you're hurting people, you may not care. Haruhiko dropping Kirino so easily is not unheard of. Friendships, even old ones, that conflict with your current state can go down the drain easily (depends on the person), so I'm not really surprised, although I still think he's a jerk for that
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Old 2006-12-04, 05:18   Link #245
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And speaking of Lamune, the girl in question was able to be friends with the guy for a really short while, so yes, I considered the tearful resolution believable, although it was pretty sad.
I was actually talking about Nanami, in the final episode of the series. Sakura did get over her affection for Kenji, but that wasn't due to anything she did herself. She simply had the issue forced on her when her family moved away.

I just wanted to clear that up. I don't want to get this thread off topic with discussions of other series >_>

And Haruhiko is past the blinded by love stage of his relationship. If he was blinded, he would simply ignore the fact that there is any sort of issue with Kirino, and their relationship as friends would suffer as he continued to ignore her. However, he clearly acknowledges that there is a problem now. And his response? "Oh well sucks for her. Hmm, I wonder what is on TV tonight." I could see him putting on a strong facade of this attitude in Kirino's presence for both of their sakes, but what we are seeing from him isn't a facade. Throughout this episode (on the train ride home, for instance), he makes it pretty clear that his now fractured relationship with Kirino isn't very much of a concern for him. He isn't angered, saddened, anxious, distressed, or even contemplative about this turn of events. Somehow it isn't troubling him at all, which to me screams of poor writing.

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Old 2006-12-04, 05:44   Link #246
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*nod nod

And that was my main point, the characters are not developed properly. I mean, DaCapo had put more thought to that. Although I had some gripes here and there about Sakura's resolution, it made sense. Aisia's case made much more sense but she wasn't actually the third party in the relationship so that doesn't count that much. Kotori had it pretty simple, not the huge investment of a childhood friend. Now, seeing as the company CAN have good writers, they might as well use them in this series, too.
Well Npal i have to agree with you on there, the way in which Haruhiko is dealing with the situation is not helping the angst at all, instead of using this as a method of pushing kirino away, it is this action that is giving Kirino a false hope, because right now he is not making the situation clear, he hasn't layed down what is happening.

This reaction of Haruhiko is in contrast with that of Asakura from DaCapo where he makes it clear to Sakura that he loves Nemu, this clears out any hope that Sakura could possibly hold onto of getting Asakura and personally I believe that is how Haruhiko should of dealt with the situation. He has to confront Kirino and say it clearly on what's happening and that is he loves Riko and will see them as nothing more then friends, that may be harsh but it would of helped the situation better than simply ignoring and disreguarding her feelings, hoping that she will get the point.
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Old 2006-12-04, 06:07   Link #247
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This reaction of Haruhiko is in contrast with that of Asakura from DaCapo where he makes it clear to Sakura that he loves Nemu, this clears out any hope that Sakura could possibly hold onto of getting Asakura and personally I believe that is how Haruhiko should of dealt with the situation. He has to confront Kirino and say it clearly on what's happening and that is he loves Riko and will see them as nothing more then friends, that may be harsh but it would of helped the situation better than simply ignoring and disreguarding her feelings, hoping that she will get the point.
Sakura and Kirino are fairly different people in different situations. Sakura was away for all the time and came back recently...Sakura's situation is exactly like Riko's, except that Asakura had changed his love from Sakura towards Nemu, while Haruhiko has held on to his feelings. Kirino on the other hand has been here for all these years and is in a different situation.

Besides we don't know how Kirino would handle Haruhiko telling her directly to get away from him. What worked for Sakura is not guaranteed to work for Kirino - their personalities are different. Sakura is smarter and more level-headed than Kirino and aprocahed the situation with more realistic pov(even though it hurt like hell she tried to let go and was prepared to do so, while Kirino has no intentions of doing so).

Haruhiko has 2 choises - either ignore Kirino and give her time to get over it herself, or showe it down her throat. We just have to assume that he knows Kirino better than us and thus knows better how to act.

Besides all of you who are saying that Haruhiko shows no concern about Kirino ... i am wondering if my version of ep9 includes some kind of different Haruhiko? Because he did show his concern. If you are asking of him to prioritize Kirino's feelings over his own feelings for Riko you are being highly unreasonable.

As for ep10 preview...
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-12-04, 07:53   Link #248
npal
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Well, I used Sakura to make a point on believable character resolution regarding a form of triangle in which the third person was more than the harem-normal "oh well, let's be friends". I mean, the writers can say that the character gets over it, sure, many of us get over many things. It's the WAY a character gets over it that counts, if he gets over it at all (yes, there are those sad occurrences when tragic things happen). Will he shout, will he cry, will he attack, will he lock himself up, will he do whatever, and for how long -duration of a behavioral pattern is crucial. Now, clearly you can't follow a character around for more than an episode (time factor), but you can provide general guidelines if you're gonna take the "he'll get over it eventually" route, most of which are not "hurray, I'll be happy now" or even "ok, that's alright, I'll start over" (although the latter depends on the situation).

Ok, I take back my argument about Haruhiko being so lovestruck And I also take back the point of him being untroubled about Kirino. He was troubled throughout the trip, then settled with his decision that there's nothing he can do but tell the truth. It's a matter of conscience, some people get over concerns or guilt easily while others may lose their sleep for days. If Haruhiko was someone else, maybe he wouldn't even care about the charm. Maybe he wouldn't care what Kirino thought, after all he made his choice. Another type of Haruhiko could have been devastated by the turn of events. The Haruhiko we have here is pretty much in the middle, not a very good place to be, according to me. He showed he was troubled by the whole issue, but he knows he can't back out and he knows he's not at fault for loving Riko. The problem with this attitude is that if you show the other person that you're happy and he's not, that you are not at fault and it's his problem, as Haruhiko is unknowingly doing, you have a serious situation at hand, and you can expect the other party to retaliate in some way.

And to make matters worse, Riko is giving Kirino a very nice justifier, the breaking of a promise. Could this have been avoided? Not really, Riko actually chose the best solution available immediately and that's why she should be commended. She lowered her head and pledged guilty while offering an acceptable excuse of why breaking this promise wasn't a product of malice or forethought. Not that Kirino would actively listen to that excuse but it registers and it might help at some point. Riko though deserves the extra credit for considering the situation more than Haruhiko, although it might have something to do with her feeling guilty about the Gift promise. Riko, Kirino, and Haruhiko's actions are thought rather well. And that's why I don't want to see some terrible resolution.

I mean, I thought how Chisa resolved her problem was purely insane. I haven't heard of a person set on a path and having serious amounts of power to carve his way towards a goal (making people happy through miracles in this case) throwing the power away because SOMEONE out of a large crowd was made miserable. A person with power would just say that "for the greater good there are some casualties, deal with it", if he's closer to actually working for the greater good and "what should I care, as long as I attain my goal", if he works for himself. And even if I was the one wronged there, I know I'd have done the same if the power was my own. For someone with Chisa's power, "guess happiness is not so easily attained" is a huge load of crap, unless that power failed miserably and successively on numerous occasions. And even then, it would take someone with the clarity of mind to stand back and evaluate the results. Most people with extreme power are often blind to the results, as history has taught. If you ask me, THIS was a case of bad writing. And I don't want to see that happen in Kirino's case, since it's going so well (or bad, depends on your point of view). I'd be pretty pissed if matters resolved like Chisa's case or another famous (or infamous) and very similar case in another series.

And to answer Skyfall's last statement, a number of people would do that. It actually depends on the person and the way he deals with things. Now... a SANE person (as love and insanity have a similar behavioral pattern) with more than half a brain would understand that Kirino's situation was pretty serious as it was, let alone the mention of Kirino's Gift. I don't believe someone who valued anything upon this world would sleep at the thought of a distorted Gift delivered from a person with a good load of negative feelings. I mean, Gift's can do pretty much anything, right? And the person who's sending the Gift in this case has nothing to lose. The receiving end is at a huge disadvantage

And the stage is set. Go Kirino, make us proud And let the world tremble at the sound of your name.
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Old 2006-12-04, 08:32   Link #249
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Hm...the thing with Chisa... it could be explained in a way that it was not some random person who came to her... Haruhiko is her acquaintance and the person her best friend(Kirino) loves, so that could influence her decision somehow. (lets admit it - much more often than not we care about those close to us in the first place before the mases of nameless people).

And besides, she is suposed to deliver happiness, right? Well as a result she had her best friend suffering from guilt and the person her best friend loves was about to erase the memories of his own mother as a result of her fake gift - thus she might have felt she 'failed' in her mission and thus steps down from her position. (One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic. <Joseph Stalin>)

@npal's last comment - i do know Haruhiko is in a pretty tight spot right about now, but i doubt that it dawned upon him that Kirino will go to such lengths as she is about to. I don't think Haruhiko believes that Kirino is capable of doing something evil... well it seems he is about to be proven wrong

As for how this is going to play out... i think i want to see an angsty outcome - i wouldn't mind seeing Haruhiko slap Kirino in the end or something, instead of the mushy-mushy talk about values of life and stuff which we are most likely going to get... but we will see... as long as they pull it off in a believable manner i'm fine with it. Thing is - i don't see Kirino coming out of her current mental state by simple talking/reasoning... i think a slap and "I hate you" from Haruhiko (after the comotion she is about to cause is settled ofc ) would go a long way, and make her realise that what she is doing is rather counter-productive (She said she want's to remain friends with him at least >.< ... and i doubt that the actions she is about to take will help in this regard)
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Old 2006-12-04, 08:41   Link #250
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As for how this is going to play out... i think i want to see an angsty outcome - i wouldn't mind seeing Haruhiko slap Kirino in the end or something, instead of the mushy-mushy talk about values of life and stuff which we are most likely going to get... but we will see... as long as they pull it off in a believable manner i'm fine with it. Thing is - i don't see Kirino coming out of her current mental state by simple talking/reasoning... i think a slap and "I hate you" from Haruhiko (after the comotion she is about to cause is settled ofc ) would go a long way, and make her realise that what she is doing is rather counter-productive (She said she want's to remain friends with him at least >.< ... and i doubt that the actions she is about to take will help in this regard)
LOL, Haruhiko is in one of those predicaments where talking won't solve anything and slapping or any other form of negative attack will just push Kirino to greater lengths. Crushing Kirino's feelings is a way to insure that, if not now, at some point in his and Riko's life, Kirino will get her revenge. The worst case scenario of course being Kirino going totally bonkers right here and now, putting Kaede to shame and making School Days seem like a field trip.

Edit: Don't take Kirino's "let's be friends" at face value. Using the Gift makes what that line was for pretty apparent. Best chances are staying friends and working from that status or waiting until something goes wrong, then bump in. Learning about Riko's Gift brings things into new perspective A bad perspective really since the enemy has given all the excuses for you to start playing dirty. The problem is bigger than what may seem. Unless Kirino has an epiphany (bleh, not THAT lame again) , something pretty dramatic has to happen for the Gift to be nullified. Which of course makes me think that Haruhiko's Gift might play a role in this in the future. Even if they do manage to find an unorthodox way to get past Kirino's Gift, I'm sure Kirino won't admit defeat. The next step is physical violence. If Haruhiko and Riko play some sort of dirty trick to get past the Gift, they should get guns and barricade the house Bleh... Chances are Haruhiko will convince Kirino with his supreme rhetorics (some of us may actually spend months treating unfortunate people like Kirino) to resolve the Gift properly.

Last edited by npal; 2006-12-04 at 08:53.
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Old 2006-12-04, 08:55   Link #251
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Mhm... i don't know - talking obviously is not getting to her as she is no longer listening to reason (Riko's gift) .... so i think that at least could shake her out of it (not like there are any other options these two aside... besides an instalation with white walls )... after all she wants to be close to Haruhiko, and i think Haruhiko making it obvious to her in a blunt way is the best way to make her do a reality check But what do i know - thankfully i never had to deal with psyho girlfriends in my life so i have no experience in this regard (and i intend to keep it that way )
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Old 2006-12-04, 13:09   Link #252
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If this were real life, then yes, there wouldn't be many choices available to Haruhiko or this show other than coddling Kirino (a very bad choice), ignoring her, and outright shoving her away.

But thankfully this isn't real life. These situations are rather depressing and painful when they occur in real life, exactly because these painful options are the only choices. This is the fantasy world of anime, where a talented writer is perfectly capable of delivering a cleaner, more enjoyable resolution. And with the Gift(s) still out there, anything can still happen.

I just hope that, whatever happens, it isn't too run of the mill or predictable.
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Old 2006-12-04, 14:22   Link #253
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I'm just thankful that Gift turned out to be more than a typical, mindless harem/dating sim. At least it's generating some meaningful discussion, and a bit of controversy to boot.

Personally I think Haruhiko is in a tough situation and he's handling it the best he can. He already scores higher than Rin (Shuffle) or Takayuki (KGNE). I'd put him at the Jyunichi (Da Capo) level, which is definitely on the upper end of the scale when it comes to male leads in harem shows.
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Old 2006-12-04, 14:29   Link #254
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I mean, I thought how Chisa resolved her problem was purely insane. I haven't heard of a person set on a path and having serious amounts of power to carve his way towards a goal (making people happy through miracles in this case) throwing the power away because SOMEONE out of a large crowd was made miserable. A person with power would just say that "for the greater good there are some casualties, deal with it", if he's closer to actually working for the greater good and "what should I care, as long as I attain my goal", if he works for himself. And even if I was the one wronged there, I know I'd have done the same if the power was my own. For someone with Chisa's power, "guess happiness is not so easily attained" is a huge load of crap, unless that power failed miserably and successively on numerous occasions. And even then, it would take someone with the clarity of mind to stand back and evaluate the results. Most people with extreme power are often blind to the results, as history has taught. If you ask me, THIS was a case of bad writing. And I don't want to see that happen in Kirino's case, since it's going so well (or bad, depends on your point of view). I'd be pretty pissed if matters resolved like Chisa's case or another famous (or infamous) and very similar case in another series.
You're not the first person I've heard complain about this, but I don't agree. Even though she thought she was "making people happy", Chisa found no fulfillment in it. She was left feeling empty inside. Why? Because happiness isn't that "cheap"; it always comes at a price (key point to the overall plot). It was because the seeds of doubt were already planted in her head that she was able to come to the realization when she did; she had been fooling herself, but wasn't able to continue when faced with the consequences of her choices (demonstrated through Haruhiko). It was like cold water being splashed on her face; given her already existing doubts (established clearly in the show), her reaction was perfectly natural. Only a child believes that they can use magic to "cheat" their way to happiness -- Chisa grew up, now it's Kirino's turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
so YES, the least I expect-and want to see- is a *very* serious outburst or some degree of chronic (maybe outright major, maybe not) depression (depends on the personality involved). I say the least, and I believe those are pretty healthy, considering the homo- or suicidal and vengeful alternatives I can think of. [...]

Even if they do manage to find an unorthodox way to get past Kirino's Gift, I'm sure Kirino won't admit defeat. The next step is physical violence. If Haruhiko and Riko play some sort of dirty trick to get past the Gift, they should get guns and barricade the house [...]

So all in all, the series has to let go of its miraculous happiness theme and take a plunge to the reality of human psychology.
Have you considered that you may need to get into the theme of the show? The so-called "reality of human psychology" you keep talking about is, with all due respect, extreme, to say the least. It is neither more realistic, nor more soundly based in anything related to normal "human pyschology". It's a case of someone going seriously "off the deep end"; even in this situation, that's an abnormal and fringe-case human reaction. Again, I remind you that most people would not turn to violence. It makes no sense whatsoever for the show to head down that path. Most people internalize their struggles, come to grips with it in their own personal way, and eventually find a way to move on in their own strength. So, I can accept that she'll certainly be adversely impacted, and in her anger at the moment she's going to use Gift to try to exact some "revenge" (which she's bound to regret), but that shouldn't all of a sudden take over the theme of the show (and certainly not under the guise of being "more realistic"). Frankly, you're coming across to me as blood-thirsty.

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Originally Posted by Kefit
Throughout this episode (on the train ride home, for instance), he makes it pretty clear that his now fractured relationship with Kirino isn't very much of a concern for him. He isn't angered, saddened, anxious, distressed, or even contemplative about this turn of events. Somehow it isn't troubling him at all, which to me screams of poor writing.
I guess I'm still struggling with what exactly you see as being remiss here. What would "make it right"? How do you measure "not very much of a concern"? To be clear, I'm inclined to reject the "poor writing" excuse until I've exhausted other reasoning that may be internally consistent. So far, all I can see is complete consistency in Haruhiko's character and actions towards Kirino. Is it poor writing, or is that just the way he is? (Maybe he is an inconsiderate jerk about Kirino after all (we'll know for sure with the next few episodes) -- but is that poor writing, or is that the character the writer wanted to create? No one says the lead must be flawless...)
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Old 2006-12-04, 14:44   Link #255
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I guess I'm still struggling with what exactly you see as being remiss here. What would "make it right"? How do you measure "not very much of a concern"? To be clear, I'm inclined to reject the "poor writing" excuse until I've exhausted other reasoning that may be internally consistent. So far, all I can see is complete consistency in Haruhiko's character and actions towards Kirino. Is it poor writing, or is that just the way he is? (Maybe he is an inconsiderate jerk about Kirino after all (we'll know for sure with the next few episodes) -- but is that poor writing, or is that the character the writer wanted to create? No one says the lead must be flawless...)
What would make it right in my mind is if Haruhiko was emotionally troubled from having to push Kirino away. Moments of distress, as we have seen from Riko (and as Shuffle's Rin showed us when he was caught in he same situation), would make his character and current attitude much more believable, at least to me. I don't particularly feel like arguing about this anymore, so I will just say that the suspension of disbelief I employ going into a show like this demands such a thing, while for others it might not be an issue at all.

And remember, I offered the possibility that Haruhiko might simply be an uncaring bastard in an earlier post. However, I will be pretty surprised if the writers end up taking this path :p
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Old 2006-12-04, 14:44   Link #256
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As for how this is going to play out... i think i want to see an angsty outcome - i wouldn't mind seeing Haruhiko slap Kirino in the end or something, instead of the mushy-mushy talk about values of life and stuff which we are most likely going to get... but we will see... as long as they pull it off in a believable manner i'm fine with it. Thing is - i don't see Kirino coming out of her current mental state by simple talking/reasoning... i think a slap and "I hate you" from Haruhiko (after the comotion she is about to cause is settled ofc ) would go a long way, and make her realise that what she is doing is rather counter-productive (She said she want's to remain friends with him at least >.< ... and i doubt that the actions she is about to take will help in this regard)
Skyfall wasn't that what i said before? You disagreed with me there before though, but i stand with my argument, the fact is i reckon the only way to resolve the situation is for Haruhiko to tell Kirino to get real and tell her outright in front of her face that he loves Riko. The fact that you already said that a slap and a i hate you would solve the problem and i don't see why he would have to do that after the commotion has been settled. Would it not be wiser to confront her before she ever gets the chance to use the Gift? Ofcourse my way of confronting her is not simply to slap her and say "i hate you" as i believe that it will turn Kirino into a total pyscho maniac if Haruhiko did that, but simply he should just get his feeling out in the open so that no one, not even Kirino can get confused as to where his feelings lie.
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Old 2006-12-04, 15:43   Link #257
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He has no reason to slap her or do anything else for that matter before she actually does something bad, does he ? As for getting his feelings in the open - he already stated in front of Kirino that he loves Riko, so short of making out/having sex with Riko in front of Kirino i don't know what else he can do to show where his heart is (and at the moment that would make things even worse i think... the thing is i don't think there is any way for Kirino to snap out of it before she has done something drastic... which would justify Haruhiko doing something drastic(this is where the slap comes in ) Fact is - telling anything at the moment won't work, because Kirino is not listening. The thing i am interested in the most atm is what kind of mess is Kirino going to create in the next ep

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What would make it right in my mind is if Haruhiko was emotionally troubled from having to push Kirino away. Moments of distress, as we have seen from Riko (and as Shuffle's Rin showed us when he was caught in he same situation), would make his character and current attitude much more believable, at least to me. I don't particularly feel like arguing about this anymore, so I will just say that the suspension of disbelief I employ going into a show like this demands such a thing, while for others it might not be an issue at all.

And remember, I offered the possibility that Haruhiko might simply be an uncaring bastard in an earlier post. However, I will be pretty surprised if the writers end up taking this path
Remember - different people deal with different emotional situations in a different way. And he is far from "pushing her away" - he showed plenty of concern about her. There is nothing more he can do in the given situation short of returning her feelings, which he won't. And he does not need to get all emotional about it. If we want to get anal about it - it is Kirino's problem, not his, and it is fully in his right not to care. The fact that he shows concern proves that he is not an emotionless bastard.

I would probably show just as straight face in such a situation - i could probably be considered a pretty cold(for the lack of a better word) person where emotions are concerned - i don't get stressed about things easilly and tend to deal with everything with a 'whatever' attitude, at least on my face(regardles how serious the problem). I don't believe that it's worth worrying your head off about anything - it's not like it helps, does it? (Which often manages to piss people off ). What im saying is - i see Haruhiko's reaction/emotions perfectly reasonable, because i wouldn't be showing more emotions in such a situation myself. (probably even less... regardless of how i actually felt about it... you would have to pull off something really drastic to see me with a stressed face... and if Haruhiko is anything like me then its perfectly normal for him not to run around worrying his head off)
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Old 2006-12-04, 16:01   Link #258
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Fact is - telling anything at the moment won't work, because Kirino is not listening.
I think that's true. Right now, she's not thinking straight; she's mixing everything into one big huge bundle of "unfairness" (which is certainly how it appears to her). I think what she has to accept is that what she wanted out of Haruhiko wasn't merely to be his sister (to simply have a place in his life forever), but really to be his lover -- to have her feelings returned to their full extent. When she accepts that that's what she really wanted, then she'll be able to accept that that's the one thing Haruhiko can't give her (she'll "start listening" to what she already knows deep down). At that point, she'll need to decide what she wants from her relationship with Haruhiko from now on, if anything. There are a few ways they could play it out, but we'll see what they do...
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Old 2006-12-04, 18:37   Link #259
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You're not the first person I've heard complain about this, but I don't agree. Even though she thought she was "making people happy", Chisa found no fulfillment in it. She was left feeling empty inside. Why? Because happiness isn't that "cheap"; it always comes at a price (key point to the overall plot). It was because the seeds of doubt were already planted in her head that she was able to come to the realization when she did; she had been fooling herself, but wasn't able to continue when faced with the consequences of her choices (demonstrated through Haruhiko). It was like cold water being splashed on her face; given her already existing doubts (established clearly in the show), her reaction was perfectly natural. Only a child believes that they can use magic to "cheat" their way to happiness -- Chisa grew up, now it's Kirino's turn.
The problem with that statement is that a child actually believes in the existence of magic, so it's only logical to pick the easier way to get something if you can. Older people have no choice in the matter, since there's no magic there to "cheat" their way. Too much power corrupts anyone, saying otherwise is denying repeated lessons of history. It'd be a bloodbath out there if everyone held Chisa's power, as it'd be a bloodbath if everyone was walking around armed. Arm regulations and are there for a reason. If everyone was so mature as you claim, we'd need neither laws nor anyone governing.

For me, the empty stare scene was out of the blue. The real question Chisa should have had is the same as Aisia's in DCSS, which I can understand. The whole "happiness comes with a price" is pretty weak, as I can name a lot of individuals that are happy without having paid any sort of cosmic price. Then again, what is happiness? I haven't heard of a person being eternally blissful, so happiness must pretty short lived in any form. Plus, happiness is purely subjective. I stand by my original opinion that Chisa wasn't doing anything wrong (when her gifts didn't get messed up). She asked what made people happy and gave it to them. Of course, the problem of people dropping back to unhappy status wasn't brought up. It'd have been much more believable if Chisa gave her powers away because the same people came over and over again asking her for multiple gifts.

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Have you considered that you may need to get into the theme of the show? The so-called "reality of human psychology" you keep talking about is, with all due respect, extreme, to say the least. It is neither more realistic, nor more soundly based in anything related to normal "human pyschology". It's a case of someone going seriously "off the deep end"; even in this situation, that's an abnormal and fringe-case human reaction. Again, I remind you that most people would not turn to violence. It makes no sense whatsoever for the show to head down that path. Most people internalize their struggles, come to grips with it in their own personal way, and eventually find a way to move on in their own strength. So, I can accept that she'll certainly be adversely impacted, and in her anger at the moment she's going to use Gift to try to exact some "revenge" (which she's bound to regret), but that shouldn't all of a sudden take over the theme of the show (and certainly not under the guise of being "more realistic"). Frankly, you're coming across to me as blood-thirsty.
Ah, but you're missing a key element here. A number of people internalize their struggles because there are many factors that prohibit them from doing anything else. Do you really believe that this world would be so "peaceful" if killing wasn't punishable and people weren't brought up with that notion? Have a look around and witness the one true cosmic rule. The strong survive, the weak perish. Are you even watching the news? You must have noticed wars raging around during the last 15 years for the simple reason that someone thought he could win and gain something from it, and since the winner is never a war criminal, he can get away with it. If "most people" were so nice, as you claim, the war phenomenon is irrational.

Assuming you are using Freud's idea of internalizing conflict, you would know that there's this thing between two powers called ego whose job is to keep balancing, stay safe and make decisions. Defensive mechanisms are there to protect the self from various harmful events. It's obvious enough that if the person chooses to get the conflict out in order to fully satisfy the so-called id, there's this problem called society, which will squash him because there are certain established rules. Internalizing struggles is self-preservation when you are faced with an opponent (or situation) you can't win (for now at least). What you call unrealistic are common thoughts that sadly swarm through most human brains. There are two forces in this world that keeps humans "nice" and it is fear and need. You can deny it if you want, the rest of the animal kingdom is based on this simple rule and thinking we are so different as to be above it is giving humanity undue credit.

Regarding Kirino's case, my suggestion is neither extreme, nor unrealistic. Judging from her behavior so far, I can see no other way it can resolve. From my understanding, a Gift is a pretty serious thing. So, if using such mighty a weapon fails, I can see Kirino exhibiting various behavioral patterns, none of which fits your hopes for the future. And yes, physical violence is a probable scenario, provided certain conditions are met, which are themselves possible enough in Kirino's case. And I don't see her regretting using the Gift for revenge in her current mindset. I don't even see it in the future either. Only people I hear feeling sorry for getting revenge are either behind bars or on their deathbed, which are not normal conditions. Feel free to inform me if you heard of something else.

Returning to the theme of the story, the theme of the story has to be made apparent naturally by the events taking place in the story. What I perceive is a forced attempt to make a point about wishes and happiness, in simpler terms, poor writing. It's like each resolution (Chisa's and the probably Kirino's) magically appears to reinforce the theme instead of resolving in a natural way. No, I'm not going to have the theme shoved down my throat to make sense of poor writing. If the theme is there, it should be made apparent otherwise.

To sum up, I believe that the way things are now, my proposed resolutions (whether bloody or plain angsty) are far more realistic and natural than a "light bulb" over the head stating that happiness doesn't come cheap or that we should leave the past behind and be friends again.

As for the bloodthirsty part, I actually refrain from watching series with too much gore, too much killing, and I'm all for good triumphing in the end, but not because God (or the writer) deemed so to make a point. If the hero needs to die, if the hero needs to make sacrifices, turn evil or whatever else, I don't mind, as long as it's done right and in character. Likewise, if it has come Kirino's time to fall to the pits of Hell, let her fall if it makes more sense, which it does, to me at least.


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I guess I'm still struggling with what exactly you see as being remiss here. What would "make it right"? How do you measure "not very much of a concern"? To be clear, I'm inclined to reject the "poor writing" excuse until I've exhausted other reasoning that may be internally consistent. So far, all I can see is complete consistency in Haruhiko's character and actions towards Kirino. Is it poor writing, or is that just the way he is? (Maybe he is an inconsiderate jerk about Kirino after all (we'll know for sure with the next few episodes) -- but is that poor writing, or is that the character the writer wanted to create? No one says the lead must be flawless...)
Two words for. Ockham's razor. When in doubt, pick the simplest explanation, makes life easier.


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I think that's true. Right now, she's not thinking straight; she's mixing everything into one big huge bundle of "unfairness" (which is certainly how it appears to her). I think what she has to accept is that what she wanted out of Haruhiko wasn't merely to be his sister (to simply have a place in his life forever), but really to be his lover -- to have her feelings returned to their full extent. When she accepts that that's what she really wanted, then she'll be able to accept that that's the one thing Haruhiko can't give her (she'll "start listening" to what she already knows deep down). At that point, she'll need to decide what she wants from her relationship with Haruhiko from now on, if anything. There are a few ways they could play it out, but we'll see what they do...
Edited: Am I the only one who doesn't believe for a moment that Kirino didn't mean the "imouto" part at all? She remembers her talk with Riko pretty clearly and I recall her saying "I like Haruhiko". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if she remembers that part, shouldn't she know the real reason? If you're going to use a whole array of defense mechanisms including denial, displacement, raltionalization and the like ,you don't just use them for the here and now. Any information that might be harmful to the new self-image (imouto) would have been discarded, and this goes for the Riko-Kirino childhood discussion about Haruhiko, since this was clearly NOT a "do I like haruhiko as an older brother" discussion. Having said that, I can't think of a way for Kirino to stop and listen to Haruhiko's arguments. I've stated that I don't believe that can happen, but it's up to the writers to try and prove me wrong.

Damn... I keep telling those writers it's a very difficult path, yet they insist on taking it and mess up most of the time. But I have some hopes, since DaCapo was more or less done ok.

Last edited by npal; 2006-12-04 at 19:26.
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Old 2006-12-04, 20:02   Link #260
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The whole "happiness comes with a price" is pretty weak, as I can name a lot of individuals that are happy without having paid any sort of cosmic price. Then again, what is happiness? I haven't heard of a person being eternally blissful, so happiness must pretty short lived in any form. Plus, happiness is purely subjective. I stand by my original opinion that Chisa wasn't doing anything wrong (when her gifts didn't get messed up). She asked what made people happy and gave it to them.
You do realize that Chisa's big revelation about "happiness" (along with Aisia's, incidentally) is intended for us, the audience? No wonder you don't understand Chisa's big revelation and the power of it -- you don't even believe in it yourself. It's like reading a fable and ignoring the moral of the story. (As evidenced by what you go on to say...)

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A number of people internalize their struggles because there are many factors that prohibit them from doing anything else. [...] If "most people" were so nice, as you claim, the war phenomenon is irrational.
...Isn't that the whole point? That war and conflict are not rational ways of solving our differences? That the costs outweigh the benefits? That the sacrificing of lives in the quest of power and control is senseless and ultimately pointless, historically? Don't you learn anything from history and the news? (Or maybe this lack of learning is why history seems doomed to repeat itself...)

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If using such mighty a weapon fails, I can see Kirino exhibiting various behavioral patterns, none of which fits your hopes for the future. And yes, physical violence is a probable scenario, provided certain conditions are met, which are themselves possible enough in Kirino's case. And I don't see her regretting using the Gift for revenge in her current mindset. I don't even see it in the future either. Only people I hear feeling sorry for getting revenge are either behind bars or on their deathbed, which are not normal conditions. Feel free to inform me if you heard of something else.
What a pronouncement! Do you really believe that the only problem with crime is getting caught? Do you really believe that the only people who feel sorry for hurting others (even for revenge) are either in jail or dying? Do you really believe that Kirino will feel in any way satisfied or fulfilled by using magic to "make Haruhiko love her"? "Only if she gets caught?" Nonsense! Her revenge has no moral or ethical justification whatsoever; it's purely selfish. Shame, regret, guilt, anguish... these are the natural consequences of hurting others, and by invoking Gift to change Haruhiko's feelings, she'll be hurting Riko, herself, and the very one she claims to love, Haruhiko himself. Regretting it will be the first thing she does when she comes to her senses, along with recognizing her own selfishness.

Gift is not a "powerful weapon", it's the power to grant a single miracle when two people's hearts are united. It's the act of giving - sharing that common wish together - that makes miracles happen in this story (and, unsurpringly on-theme, can bring happiness in real life). Kirino's impure, selfish desire will never bring her happiness or satisfaction, only the pain of a guilty conscience.

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Am I the only one who doesn't believe for a moment that Kirino didn't mean the "imouto" part at all? She remembers her talk with Riko pretty clearly and I recall her saying "I like Haruhiko".
Her wish to be his sister predates Riko arriving in his life, which is why she says that Riko stole him "twice". Right now, she's blurred all those points in her head, and isn't sure what the "real problem" is anymore -- hence why she's talking now of "reclaiming the past Haruhiko" and giving the "future Haruhiko" away to Riko. Kirino is, simply put, very confused and distraught right now because she believes that she may be about to forever lose the person she loves.

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Returning to the theme of the story, the theme of the story has to be made apparent naturally by the events taking place in the story. What I perceive is a forced attempt to make a point about wishes and happiness, in simpler terms, poor writing. It's like each resolution (Chisa's and the probably Kirino's) magically appears to reinforce the theme instead of resolving in a natural way. No, I'm not going to have the theme shoved down my throat to make sense of poor writing. If the theme is there, it should be made apparent otherwise.
Isn't that just circular logic? The story should reveal the theme, but the theme shouldn't dictate the story? So, the chicken or the egg? The resolution of each story arc adds up to form the larger story and theme; in reverse, the larger theme or story is reflected in each story arc. This is exactly as it should be; if that weren't the case, that would be poor writing. Your lack of acceptance for both the theme and on-theme story ending of Chisa's arc bear this connection into evidence. It's not poor writing, you just don't like what they have to say. Perhaps, to you, that's the same thing.

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Two words for. Ockham's razor. When in doubt, pick the simplest explanation, makes life easier.
Nonsense. You're presuming to be smarter than the writer in your understanding of the writer's own characters in the writer's own universe. Not to mention that you're talking as if you know what's best and under a presumption of reflecting "reality". Why should I believe you over the story as presented if the story itself is logical, consistent, and well-reasoned? More to the point, why should you believe yourself? Why should I?

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Damn... I keep telling those writers it's a very difficult path, yet they insist on taking it and mess up most of the time.
You keep on telling those writers, man... and one day, you might realize that they just might have something relevant to tell you about "reality" as well. But so long as you believe that you have a more firm grasp on "reality" than everyone around you, there's nothing for you to learn... and hence, not much more for me to say.
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