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Old 2006-08-11, 10:06   Link #401
Obi-Wan
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Why don't we just end this thread on the logical closure point of "GSD has a lot of problems and Shinn's character relationships is one of them"
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Old 2006-08-11, 10:11   Link #402
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tran
"I was driving erratically the other day... I'm not sure why; it may have had something to do with the bottle of vodka I drank beforehand, but I'm not 100% certain."
Well that was well thought out ...Damn straight, I have no clue if it was vodka because I don't intend on smelling your $hitty breath^^...Way to go, using a 1st person example to compare a 3rd person situation...Like I said Dullindal based on the anime alone most likely did it...However the lack of cohenrency for the portrayle of his character in the end will almost have me believe in the back of my mind maybe just maybe that wasn't the outcome they always wanted to be known...But like I said I'm resigned to the fact....If you bothered to read rather than your sly attempt at whatevering wingdarkness you would have seen my post about Dully was in response to Tak's overblown assumption that Lacus and Kira OBVIOUSLY knew Dully was the culprit right off the bat when they didn't come to that opinion until after the DESTROY fight...So sober up will ya...

And how bout we let this thread end by the merits of it's own momentum...
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Old 2006-08-11, 10:25   Link #403
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness

And how bout we let this thread end by the merits of it's own momentum...
Ha! And you were the one who encouraged this 'discussion' when I (along with Obi-Wan now) had painfully pointed out much earlier that it served no point to degrade either Shinn or Kira.

Worse, I actually listened to you and jumped into the fray...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Stellar loved Shinn for being there when she needed him (protecting her, even if it was already a little too late), and Shinn loved Stellar for bringing him back from his own pain that has made him suffer for the longest time already. If it weren't for Stellar loving him and teaching him to have emotions again, I highly doubt they would make a greater explanation as to why he ended up with Lunamaria after all that has happened. And if Shinn didn't love Stellar, there would be no need for the Freedomed ep.
See, all of Shinn's relationships have something to do with the 'sister'. Look, first is the fragile Stellar who reminded Shinn of his sister, and someone he had to protect. Then Luna, who sounds like his sister and probably act like her, too!

- Tak (Hell, and I was ignorning this thread for sometime)
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Old 2006-08-11, 10:29   Link #404
wingdarkness
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Tak this is what I mean by lost in translation...

Dude I'm saying let's continue to talk until the thread dies naturally...The thread will end when people are tired of talking..All I've seen is this thread get more and more intense each day...Some people are posting long analytical discussions that I have enjoyed reading...The thread will stop when it stops...BTW I encouraged you what like 2 weeks ago and it's still going? X)
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Old 2006-08-11, 10:55   Link #405
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Sorry for the opinions...but for once, I would really like to say something.

*Henshin*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightdarkness
There was this one $hit of an anime, y'know, ridiculously overrated for it's let's kill'em all, what's the whole Jesus Chri$t of Gundam $hit, oh ya Zeta was it's name. There was this one ridiculously unexplained $hit-hole in the form of Char and Haman, what's with their relationship summing up to 2 sentences, you stole my mutha freakin innocence and we could've been great together, anime God of Gundam, Char that was like..totally unexplained in the whole anime other than a manga that wasn't anime called....what wuz it, CDA? Oh yeah that was it. Nobody seems to give a freakin damn about plotholes in Zeta from the whole Amuro and Sayla had s-x-e in the novels that was said in Zeta, but sure as hell wasn't shown in Zeta and 0079 and ChamanKarn $hit, but everyone has to go ape$hit over Dullindal not announcing to teh world that lol he sent ASHes, he leaked Gundam info, he zipped his mouth over Destroy and Requiem despite subtle hints thrown throughout the anime and clear cut evidence in something that was created before GSD in the form of kill the original plz k thx bye Canard Pars and do me a grand favour before I become Chairman. Real double standardization.
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Old 2006-08-11, 11:37   Link #406
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^Why must you mock me so much to make a point? I mean it's kinda funny at first, but I got no less than 10 members on this site jocking my style and it's a bit too much at times...Kinda stale after the 5th or 6th time you've done it...I guess it's my cross to bear for being so damn cool and trendy with my "self-identifying" style...Oh well...

Lets see if I can break your latest menecing metaphor down...GSD tried and wanted to be a serious political intrigue story..So if you want that to be credible you can't have a trillon friken plot-holes in-terms of it's politcal and plotting aspect...Zeta Gundam was more of a "War sucks" cold and gloomy portrayle of the compromises and normalacy that takes place when you decide to fight one..."You f*ck up, you die" that was Zeta's message on the battlefield (It didn't care if your name was Mr. Killer Tomato, you could be one of the best pilots in the stars but if you make a mistake you die, plain and simple..War is that f*cked up)...While the politcal landscape was prevelant it was bearly as complex as GSD was attempting to be...At the end you had a clear sense of what and why people were fighting...Where in GSD it was if you ain't on ______ and _______ side your a flaming bag of $hit... but why am i trying to explain this sublime realism to a self proclaimed SOOOOPA-ROBOS aficionado...Death has meaning...The fact Tomino never glorifies it in Zeta makes it have more meaning IMO...We are talking about 1985 where a technique like this to my knowledge was seldom ever used in the realistic mecha genre (I wonder if you woulda thought it was overrated in 85 before your expectations were watered down by Dendoh and Gai-ga-ga-ga-get real)...As for the rest no one would go ape$hit over the Dully stuff (as you just proceded to do) if it was achieved affectively in presentation...Which you know it didn't and you would burn in a hellish eternity if you ever put you hand on the bible and said it was...You know hell the place with all the stuff that looks like redwords...Zeta was hell, and it was trying to show the heroes that can found in this terrible, bitter existence...It was gritty, you never knew if the next fight would be your last and it kept many entertained with it's griping attitude towards that end...Not to mention it had a main characters whose growth was attained, and he still didn't get the "Pie in the sky" ending...

Oh BTW it doesn't help your argument that GSD tried to rip Zeta (a show you just bashed for being a simple plot-hole mess) and couldn't even do that properly...And to throw Cammille Jr. into the fray for the sake of the topic, I don't think Shinn's prototype screamed as much when he watched his girl die in his arms in the bitter snow after he pulled her out of the DESTROY, I mean Psyco-Gundam...
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Old 2006-08-11, 11:46   Link #407
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My point in that post is simple. I just wingdarknessed it, and added flair. Trust me, I don't enjoy doing it.

GSD had it faults in presenting a plotline it didn't clearly point out. Such as Gilbert's subletly in showing how he was the true mastermind behind it all. But I for one thinks it was executed decently, as we've been shown enough subtle hints on how he has his hands on technically everything, and the whole Lacus or Kira ASH sham was pretty obvious by 3 episodes. Not to mention his smirks when he saw Shinn in Phase 1.

I don't think Zeta's that great of a Gundam anime, but I assure you, it's not for those reasons I stated as Nightdarkness. If you remember, I stated that I looked at the Gundam franchise as a whole being, and how I view GSD is very very critically affected by side-franchises of GSD from Astray, to The Edge, to Photonovels. So, the whole Zeta unexplained thing mattered nill to me since I've got CDA Chinese Raws anyway.

Anyway, let's forget about all that and move back into Shinn. That wasn't really myself anyway, but I felt I could've get my point better if I emulated you.
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Old 2006-08-11, 12:49   Link #408
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Damn Nightengale, that was pimp. I'd rep you but it won't let me because I repped you the last time you morphed into Nightdarkness. Great job.
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Old 2006-08-11, 18:03   Link #409
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Actually, I liked the ambigiuty for Dullindal in GSD (the series alone)... to me, he's just a guy who wanted to uphold his ideal, although I don't support nor buy DP at all... maybe it's cause I never consider either side as right... (maybe it's just me, but I never try to look for the "right/justice" side when I watch Gundam... I thought the whole point of Gundam is that things aren't black and white).

The only thing that made him a villian was genocide attempt... heck, even if he "had" try to assassinate Lacus, so what, many lives have been sacrifice for the war... what's one assasination attempt compare to ending all wars and the hatred between natural and coordinator.

And about Shinn and Stella... I honestly don't think they were in love.
I think the word love is used too lightly in anime...
Heck, most "couple/pairing" in GSD aren't really in love
Most of them were no more than infatuation and flings and fleeting feelings.
The only couple that I think really "loved" each other is probably AishaAndy and probably PatrickLenore.

Look at Shinn from the whole series, he had wanted to "protect" someone or something from the start. This is a character who started out losing everything, which drove him to join the military to become power so he can protect those close to him. Only (ironically), he has no one left to protect really. There was no one close to him, or important to him that wanted to be protected by him.

He didn't join the war like Yzak, Nicole or Athrun, Shinn never really cared for PLANT nor was moved by the first (or second) Junius incident.

Shinn needed to protect someone or something to fill the empty void he felt after his family vapourized in front of his eyes, because by protect something/someone, it means there is something / someone that's meaningful / important to him in his life.

Shinn's story is of one where he had acquired power to protect those close to him, only to find that there was no one left to protect. Despite that he fought on, and try to find people he can protect on the way, only to realize that in the end he nearly destroy the one thing that he truly cherished despite his denials - Orb.

Those civilians in the base, Stella, Luna, they're all merely people Shinn had met on the way who needed protection... and Shinn also desparately needed to feel needed. So logically, he protected them fiercely... Because it was the only way he can find meaning in fighting this war. Love was not never in the question for Shinn.

(though I do kind of think that Luna in the end truly held some feeling for Shinn).
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Old 2006-08-11, 18:50   Link #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Like I said Dullindal based on the anime alone most likely did it...
So what the heck are you complaining about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
If you bothered to read rather than your sly attempt at whatevering wingdarkness you would have seen my post about Dully was in response to Tak's overblown assumption that Lacus and Kira OBVIOUSLY knew Dully was the culprit right off the bat when they didn't come to that opinion until after the DESTROY fight...
They had only one suspect - it really can’t get any more obvious than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
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I laughed. I admit it, but please don’t do it again – it’s both hilarious and horribly unsettling at the same time.


cloudedge’s post is also very well written.
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Old 2006-08-11, 19:05   Link #411
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Well, I am going to do a little more nitpickings (and trying to keep this as friendly as possible)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge

The only thing that made him a villian was genocide attempt... heck, even if he "had" try to assassinate Lacus, so what, many lives have been sacrifice for the war... what's one assasination attempt compare to ending all wars and the hatred between natural and coordinator.
I don't know why some people just kept on denying the fact that Dilly was the mastermind. Even if Lacus and co. had only slight suspicion of him, surely the appearance of Meer later would have connected most dots, if not complete.

Lets be logical here. These were Coordinator commandos, piloting the newest amphibious MS. Then there was PLANT, still governed at the time by a virtual dictatorship. Obviously, only Dilly had the power to pull all those strings.

Sure, one assasination attempt is nothing compared to an entire war, but if the target in question had the capacity to change the tides of war, that makes things different. Lacus had that power, so did Kira (regardless of how much fairy dust they had). Durandal not only once, but several times during the series uttered to himself, stating how 'troublesome' the existence of Lacus and Kira was.

Anyway, according to an interview of GSD producers, a question was asked:

Q: Did the chairman initiated the assasination of Lacus Clyne?
A: More than likely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
And about Shinn and Stella... I honestly don't think they were in love. I think the word love is used too lightly in anime...
Heck, most "couple/pairing" in GSD aren't really in love
Most of them were no more than infatuation and flings and fleeting feelings.
The only couple that I think really "loved" each other is probably AishaAndy and probably PatrickLenore.
And somehow I still like that pairing more so than I do Luna/Shinn. At least Shinn/Stella pairing had an initiative. I was pretty dumbfounded when I saw Shinn kissing Luna. I had no idea how that happened.

Aisha and Andy's relationship was already established, so there weren't much anyone can say about that. Although more background on Aisha could have been nice.

As for Patrick and Lenore? I wouldn't be too quick to place a judgement on that. For all we know, Patrick and Lenore might have been married due to political arrangement, just like how Patrick wanted to arrange a marriage between Lacus and his son. Arranged marriages is not at all uncommon in certain parts of the world, and its still a practice where Gundam originated. Patrick comes off as an aloof man, I have not seen him show any signs of affection towards his late wife and his son. He never visited her grave, and treated his son like a subordinate. Hell, he wouldn't even allow Athrun to address to him as father even when they were alone.

Although he did remind Athrun that his mother was murdered by Natural nuclear weapons, it could be interpreted as an excuse to force Athrun in continuing his war.

In the manga version of GSD, he had a belated portrayal as a gentler human being, but we will never know.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-11 at 19:16.
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Old 2006-08-11, 20:11   Link #412
cloudedge
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All you're saying is that he has a motive and the resource to orchestrate the assassination... take that to court and see if you can prove anyone guilty just because one has motive and the resource to commit the crime.

I never deny the fact that Dullindal has the possiblity of being the mastermind. But there is no proof that he is, and imo, that's good, because you don't always know the whole story in a situation like war.

Dully used Meer to acquire more public momentu for his cause, so what? That doesn't make him a villian.

And like I said even if he had assasinated Lacus, he'd still not really considered a villian, as like you have said what's one life in a war.

A life is a life. All lives are equal. Just because Lacus is powerful, doesn't make killing her any more sinful or wicked. In fact, the fact that she hold so much power on her whim, makes assassinating her seems almost reasonable. Lacus is known for being a rouge force who does whatever she feels is right with her overpowered gundam and STOLEN military resource. Getting her off the scene almost seems like the most rational thing to do, if one plans to achieve an ideal of his own... (rather than being a Lacus puppet).

btw, more than likely is not "Yes, he did." There is still uncertainty there. They could have said Yes he did, but even the producer prefer to keep it a little ambigious and imo, again not a bad thing.

Shinn and Luna's kiss... Shinn found a new person to protect, that's what happened...

There was no love in Shinn... only his selfish need to feel needed... to feel that he had someone to protect, something to fight for in his life.

Patrick and Lenore - did you not see the word probably?
People don't just turned into mad genocidal for no reason...
Patrick Zala obviously hated Natural for Junius 7... and the most logical reason for that is that he lost his wife in that incident.

You have little prove to say that Patrick and Lenore had political marriage... In fact, I find it unlikely that Patrick and Lenore's parent arranged their marriage for political reason, mostly because I don't even think Patrick and Lenore's parents are politicians.

Both Patrick and Lenore are first gen. coordinator, meaning their parents are natural, so PLANTS and ZAFT probably weren't even established back then.

Also even if they were arranged marriage, no one said you can't be in love in an arranage marriage... again this is where I find anime's skewed concept of love, which is often confused with "infatuation" annoying.

And about your comment about Athrun and Patrick.
No one wanted a war, not even Patrick Zala (unless your name is Rau)..
No one wants to push their sons to the front line, not even Patrick Zala would. What you assumed is merely a 2 dimensional villian character that you want to believe fit Patrick Zala in.
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Old 2006-08-11, 23:48   Link #413
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Time for space...

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-08-12, 02:29   Link #414
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
And like I said even if he had assasinated Lacus, he'd still not really considered a villian, as like you have said what's one life in a war.
Does that mean that Kira could have shot a couple of random passer-bys? After all, it was war. What's one life or two? It doesn't work that way. (And not just because Kira can't kill armed soldiers in battle without some people calling him a murderer...)

Talking first, and if that doesn't work, assassinate Lacus because she chooses to oppose his plan? That's justifiable. Having her assassinated because Dullindal's a flamming control freak? Villain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Besides, the only thing he had left of them was the pink cellphone and not much else, the pink celphone he dove into the hillside to get before everything exploded.
Yes, and the cellphone is better than the other he could have been left with... Mayu's severed arm, preserved in formaldehyde.

Quote:
As for the arranged marriage, since they are all Coordinators living in PLANTs and they know about the limitations of getting married to somebody you love inspite of your genetic differences...I highly doubt that it was only implemented when ZAFT came into power. Coordinators would have most likely researched about what they can and what they can't do, so when they probably found out about that limiting factor, they tried to implement it before heading out into the PLANTs. I mean, if they didn't, the Coordinators wouldn't be having that much of a boom of first generation and second generation Coordinators, right (as in, if they didn't know what their limitations are, they'll only probably number only a handful when they get into PLANTs). The PLANTs were already there when they migrated en masse to it in order to escape persecution from the Naturals, and the PLANTs were already there working for the PLANT sponsor nations before they decided to go solo.
Doubtful. Remember, Coordinator is a recent technology, and it was hinted that they don't have fertility problems in the first generation, so it'd take even more time for it to get noticed. And even after that - research doesn't mean instant results. And even after the research is done, it takes political power to implement a solution, especially as Earth governments (which ruled Plants before Zaft was created) didn't seem interseted in making more coordinators.

From that conversation between Sygel and Patrick, I'd guess (and yes, I know it's just speculation, don't get on my case) that the arranged marriage thing is only a few years old, and its long term results still unknown.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2006-08-12 at 02:40.
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Old 2006-08-12, 03:23   Link #415
Tak
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Meh, we just started another thread for this. So head on over there and lets all have a good time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Besides, even the GSD producers recognize Dully's ambiguity: they only said more than likely, which is not as exact as saying most definitely.
[/spoiler]
At that point, the series had not ended. Therefore, their little-more-than- ambiguous comments were understandable.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-12 at 03:34.
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Old 2006-08-12, 09:22   Link #416
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@ Tak

If they decided Dully to be the uber villain of the entire series, hell, they could just say that he is and get the entire speculation over with. Or, maybe they could define it as something more than "more than likely". "Possibly", "maybe", "sort of", etc. etc. are ambiguous comments all in all, but saying something that is defined would more than reduce evil speculation in half and silence those who think that Dully is not the villain.

@ Anh_Minh

Who says the Earth governments were interested in making more Coordinators? The earliest Coordinators were born and raised in secret, because many Naturals were starting to distrust them, which culminated in George Glenn's assassination, and thus led to the banning of genetic manipulation leading to the creation of Coordinators everywhere in the world by CE 55. Also, first generation Coordinators at that point might have children already that is in the 2nd or 3rd generation, and could notice something was wrong with the 3rd generation Coordinators. Coordinator boom began in earnest by CE 30 and ended by CE 55; that's a lot of time to research and find things about themselves and try to correct it before it's too late. Patrick Zala was going on about fertility problems by 3rd generation Coordinators; then we have Dully and Talia who are in love with one another yet Talia had to agree to an arranged marriage because she wanted to have children, something which may point to the incompatibility of Dully's genes or whatever. The arranged marriages in PLANTs don't seem that recent as this shows.
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Old 2006-08-12, 09:42   Link #417
Anh_Minh
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Before Plants gained some measure of independance from the sponsor nations, any plan to solve the fertility problem would have needed the support of those nations' government. Which they weren't likely to give, since they'd just as soon see the Coordinators die out. That also mean they're unlikely to fund research. I don't know how much hindrance they'd be, but if they force such research underground - well, that'd slow it down even further.

Let's see.
CE 15: George Glenn releases the Coordinator technology.

How long till they notice the problem? To the extent of researching it and putting drastic measures (like regulating whom you can marry) in place?

I'd say, 45 years. First the technology has to spread, and First gens have to be born, then they have to get their own children. Those second gens have to try to have their own children, and enough of them have to fail for the problem to get noticed.

That'd place us in CE 60, roughly 5 years after Athrun's birth.

Granted, since the Coordinators are a bit of an experiment in progress, they were probably closely followed, medically speaking. But I still don't think they'd have had time to see there was a fertility problem, research it, and find a solution. Even so partial and tentative a solution as arranged marriages in time to be an issue with regards to Patrick Zala's marriage. (Not that it couldn't have been arranged for other reasons. Just not for the fertility thing.)


PS: and no, 25 years is not that long. It's just one human generation, and I don't think they could use fruitflies as replacement experimental subjects.
Rats are a possibility (at least they're mammals), but I think you'd really need pigs and monkeys. Any idea how fast they breed?
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Old 2006-08-12, 09:45   Link #418
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
@ Tak

If they decided Dully to be the uber villain of the entire series, hell, they could just say that he is and get the entire speculation over with. Or, maybe they could define it as something more than "more than likely". "Possibly", "maybe", "sort of", etc. etc. are ambiguous comments all in all, but saying something that is defined would more than reduce evil speculation in half and silence those who think that Dully is not the villain.
As I stated before, the show was not over at that point, thus they prefer not to give a definite answer to the question. Most likely is a huge hint. That is why they released Gundam SEED Destiny Astray, to answer some of your speculations and tie up loose ends.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-12 at 09:58.
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Old 2006-08-12, 09:49   Link #419
Anh_Minh
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Or it's a red herring. In GS3, we'll learn that all along, Al Da Fllaga was pulling the strings. Arranged for Break the World, Lacus' assassination, and mentally took control of Dullindal thanks to his Newtype powers.
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Old 2006-08-12, 10:04   Link #420
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Or it's a red herring. In GS3, we'll learn that all along, Al Da Fllaga was pulling the strings. Arranged for Break the World, Lacus' assassination, and mentally took control of Dullindal thanks to his Newtype powers.
We will take it as they come. No point arguing about hypothetical future changes, we can only talk about what we know now.
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