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Old 2006-07-23, 15:41   Link #41
cloudedge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Shinn did hesitate to attack Athrun several times on battlefiel while listening to his rumbling
But he still attacked him none the less. A quite from Aisha... all Athrun's mentor experience with Shinn were the wrong one - the unsuccessful one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
i think Athrun is the only one whose opinions are respected by Shinn a little
What? Shinn actually disrespect Athrun quite a few times! Especially after he beat Freedom. Ever since Athrun got saviored, Shinn had stop respecting him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Shinn and Kira has nothing in comon and they are completely different.
Then you must have not watch GSD closely enough.
Both came from a normal childhood / civilian family
Both fought the war to protect those close to them.
Both have lose their a girl they wish to protect to war.
Both had a siscon tendency

On the other hand, Athrun and Shinn has even less in common.

And about their personality being different. Mwu and Andy had a different personality than Kira, he was still a good mentor. You don't have to a exactly the same to be a mentor. Just gotta have patience and some empathy (which athrun had show he had none with Shinn)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
And lets not forget the hate Shinn has for Kira - he might have forgiven him for the time being, but its nothing that can be forgotten so easilly. War or not, directly or not, Kira killed Shinns family and Stellar. And that is not something Shinn can get over with hearing 2 sentences from Kira. ( unless he gets influenced by Lacus dust )
He already knew Kira is Freedom's pilot when he shook hands with him in FP. What you're saying is basically erasing all the character dev. he had got so far. Like Nightengale and Obi-wan has said, Shinn need to matured and let go of his pass demon to become a great character. What you just suggest is reverting him
back to the mindless hateful teenager that he was in GSD and serves nothing for his growth in the third season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
And i think Shinn wont be staying in ORB either - too much memories ( and not the best ones ).
He's been running away from those memory all GSD, why not face them. I am suggesting these to happen to make him a great character. Running away from your own past hardly make the character great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
The 3 probably would end up fighting together, since they would follow 1 leader - Lacus.
I see not ties between Lacus and Shinn. The two never even talk.
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Old 2006-07-23, 16:43   Link #42
Empire
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Well, I agree with obi-wan and Nightengale side

Especially that I'm not afraid about Kira+Athrun+Shinn combo being overpowered. Mind you people that power depends as much on pilot as his mobile suit. This is veery nicely shown in Armory One raid, when almighty Athrun get's nearly killed by Gaia alone in no time. Why? Because he pilots grunt mobile suit.

Going further, as things end after Final Plus (Lacus in PLANT council, Cagali transforming into strong leader in ORB, etc. etc. ), GS3 would have to be placed at least few years after, let's say five - ten.
And that's more than enough for military technology to advance few steps further, few steps that will make SF, IF and, most of all, crappy Destiny, maybe not obsolete, but clearly at a disadvantage.
Same was with Strike. At the beggining of GS, he was almighty (well, at least until rest of X-numbers series shown up :P), in the middle of GSD when Kira rushes into space to save Lacus, he lands in state of wreck, with both his legs destroyed, not to mention other damages. And that all in fight with a mere grunt MS!

And again, some crazy Extended can show up again, this time even more powerfull (and as crazy as first series, I've loved this guys XD especially Raider pilot XD), more bloodlusted, perhaps empowered with some cybernetic implants too...
Zero System + Extended Newtype Pilot in some nuclear powered, Dragoon armed Totall Killer Gundam? Even theoretically invincible Kira+Athrun+Shinn+Luna+Mwu combo seems lame :P
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Old 2006-07-23, 17:18   Link #43
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
But he still attacked him none the less. A quite from Aisha... all Athrun's mentor experience with Shinn were the wrong one - the unsuccessful one.
Yes, in the end he did, but because Rey has bigger influence on SHinn than Athrun

Quote:
What? Shinn actually disrespect Athrun quite a few times! Especially after he beat Freedom. Ever since Athrun got saviored, Shinn had stop respecting him.
Yes, he does. But at times he also listens to what Athrun has to say. Best shown at the conversation on Minervas deck, and i have no friggin clue witch ep that was


Quote:
Then you must have not watch GSD closely enough.
1)Both came from a normal childhood / civilian family
2)Both fought the war to protect those close to them.
3)Both have lose their a girl they wish to protect to war.
4)Both had a siscon tendency
1)Kira came From a mechanical pod Yes, both are from normal family, however Kiras 'family' is alive, Shinns family is killed by Kira

2)Wrong. Kira went to war to protect those close to him, Shinn went to war for revenge. At that time he didnt have anyone close to him to protect.

3)Yes, that they have. However Kiras girlfriend wasnt killed by Shinn

4)Yep, this they definitely have


Quote:
On the other hand, Athrun and Shinn has even less in common.

And about their personality being different. Mwu and Andy had a different personality than Kira, he was still a good mentor. You don't have to a exactly the same to be a mentor. Just gotta have patience and some empathy (which athrun had show he had none with Shinn)
Athrun didnt have patience with Shinn ? if he wouldnt have Shinn would have died at battle of ORB, or Athrun would have shot him when Shinn 'killed' Kira The only time when Athrun got really angry with him was when Shinn downed Freedom.

And Shinn does respect Athrun - Athrun is the only one he hesitates to attack on the battlefield, while he goes straight charging at whatever it is he comes across. Its allways Reys talks that make Shinn attack Athrun.


Quote:
He already knew Kira is Freedom's pilot when he shook hands with him in FP. What you're saying is basically erasing all the character dev. he had got so far. Like Nightengale and Obi-wan has said, Shinn need to matured and let go of his pass demon to become a great character. What you just suggest is reverting him
back to the mindless hateful teenager that he was in GSD and serves nothing for his growth in the third season.
Yes, he does know that. He has matured, but put Shinn and Kira in the same room for a prolonged period of time and i wouldnt bet that no accidents wouldnt happen. Yes, this change does leave room for character growth, but this change itself is 100% ooc for Shinn. He changed in a snap. Just like his relationship with Luna Fukuda just fucked up Shinn - he didnt do anything properly with him

Quote:
He's been running away from those memory all GSD, why not face them. I am suggesting these to happen to make him a great character. Running away from your own past hardly make the character great.
Agree on that, but as i said - it happened way too fast. One moment hes ready to rip Kiras hearth out with his bare hands, then Athrun beats him to a pulp and he suddenly forgets everything ? Maybe Athrun overdid it when he was ripping Destiny a new one maybe he hit his head when he crash-landed on moon and forgot all his past


I see not ties between Lacus and Shinn. The two never even talk.[/QUOTE]


Quote:
Zero System + Extended Newtype Pilot in some nuclear powered, Dragoon armed Totall Killer Gundam? Even theoretically invincible Kira+Athrun+Shinn+Luna+Mwu combo seems lame :P
And again, some crazy Extended can show up again, this time even more powerfull (and as crazy as first series, I've loved this guys XD especially Raider pilot XD), more bloodlusted, perhaps empowered with some cybernetic implants too...
Oh, its ofc possible to come up with something stronger, but here comes another problem - Armies and space fleets as whole has become useless in GSD , seing how Athrun and Kira can own them witout getting a scratch. Only things that matter are uber MS with Uber pilots and superweapons to kill some civilians. The armys allready have become a simple background for battles, anything further is just lame :P I mean Lacus is the strongest military force in CE simply by having Athrun and Kira on her side, anything further is uber lame ( if you do like super mechs however you might like it, but i dont :P )
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Old 2006-07-23, 17:22   Link #44
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Yes, he does know that. He has matured, but put Shinn and Kira in the same room for a prolonged period of time and i wouldnt bet that no accidents wouldnt happen. Yes, this change does leave room for character growth, but this change itself is 100% ooc for Shinn. He changed in a snap. Just like his relationship with Luna Fukuda just fucked up Shinn - he didnt do anything properly with him



Agree on that, but as i said - it happened way too fast. One moment hes ready to rip Kiras hearth out with his bare hands, then Athrun beats him to a pulp and he suddenly forgets everything ? Maybe Athrun overdid it when he was ripping Destiny a new one maybe he hit his head when he crash-landed on moon and forgot all his past
I don't think it happened that fast. It just all happened offscreen. There must have been some time between the final battle and that scene at the monument. Maybe several months.
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Old 2006-07-23, 17:27   Link #45
Skyfall
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But we dont know that - there is nothing hinting on that. It could be true hes sitting back and thinking things over, but we are not shown that. For all we know the grave scene could happen 2 days after
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Old 2006-07-23, 18:07   Link #46
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Well, IIRC, it was shown after the negotiations between Plant and Orb. Said negotiations don't happen in a day.
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Old 2006-07-23, 19:22   Link #47
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I have nothing against Shinn maturing as a character, I'd actually like to see that, but I really don't want to see him all buddy-buddy with Kira and Athrun. Having them fight together should the situation call for it would be acceptable but I'd rather see them take different paths towards the same goal.

Near the beginning of GSD Shinn and Athrun had a disagrement while having dinner with the Dully, the basis of which was how those with power should act with that power. Athrun's (and Kira's) view is that those with any significant amount of power should refrain from using that power unless called for by extraordinary circumstances while distancing themselves. Shinn's view on the other hand was that those with power are obligated to exercise it to protect those without power.

Any future involvement of Shinn, Kira and Athrun I would like to see use the above as the central focus of their interactions. They don't need to be in conflict with each other but I would like to see further debate between them over how those with power are to us said power.
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Old 2006-07-23, 20:01   Link #48
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Actually Athrun's view is that someone with power shouldn't use his power recklessly because he will just become a destructive force, which just leads to more hate and war. This is what he says to Shinn. In the tea party discussion he doesn't say anything about the use of power, he says that peace can never be achieved if two sides keep retaliating against each other.

Kira's personal view is that he would rather not fight at all if he could help it, but he realizes if he doesn't fight then the world situation will become critical again. Shinn's view is not 100% clear as it's hidden beneath layers of Gilbert's manipulation, but he does say several times that he wants to protect the people he loves, which at heart is the very same thing Athrun and Kira are doing. However, Shinn also says that he'll accomplish that goal by wiping out everything that stands in his way, including Logos, Athrun, Freedom, etc., which is essentially why he became an antagonist for Athrun.

Now that Shinn has come around to the more ideal line of thinking, I think he will find his goals and views about war are very similar if not directly in line with Athrun and Kira's.
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Old 2006-07-23, 20:05   Link #49
rpgman1
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There will be a 3rd season of Gundam SEED seeing how hugely popular the series is in Japan. Can you see that young people and teenagers make up the majority of the viewers for the series? It would be nice to see Shinn matured and take command like Yzak. As for major villians, why not those involved in Stargazer? I mean we're watching the ONA to see the reality of war and those caught up in the storm as shock value. Just dreaming that the Stargazer Gundam and the other gundams that support it will be the ones causing trouble for our band of heroes. For once, can it just be one side fighting against another side? Having a three way is bad enough and it sure confuses those to be on what side. If the UC can differentiate by only two sides, then so can the CE. Maybe the new series will come out late next year and it better be good or else it suffers from "repetitive SEED syndrome".
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Old 2006-07-23, 20:31   Link #50
shaolo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpgman1
There will be a 3rd season of Gundam SEED seeing how hugely popular the series is in Japan. Can you see that young people and teenagers make up the majority of the viewers for the series? It would be nice to see Shinn matured and take command like Yzak. As for major villians, why not those involved in Stargazer? I mean we're watching the ONA to see the reality of war and those caught up in the storm as shock value. Just dreaming that the Stargazer Gundam and the other gundams that support it will be the ones causing trouble for our band of heroes. For once, can it just be one side fighting against another side? Having a three way is bad enough and it sure confuses those to be on what side. If the UC can differentiate by only two sides, then so can the CE. Maybe the new series will come out late next year and it better be good or else it suffers from "repetitive SEED syndrome".
As long as Fukuda is in control, the repetitive SEED syndrome will happen.
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Old 2006-07-23, 20:57   Link #51
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And since the SEED movie is going to be directed by Fukuda...
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Old 2006-07-23, 21:02   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
And since the SEED movie is going to be directed by Fukuda...
Feature length anime films have more budget to work with so that solves the reused animation problem. And given that there has been no information released on the movie since the initial announcement, it's a safe bet they're still writing the story. So the two main problems of Destiny TV, reused animation and rushed story scripts won't even play a role. I bet the movie ends up being the best part of CE.
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Old 2006-07-23, 21:18   Link #53
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Stop this vague Fukuda bashings. No one bashes Tomino for Daitarn 3, but everyone just has to bash Fukuda for GSD. A lot praises Tomino for his list of good shows, but so few praises Fukuda's good shows which isn't labelled Gundam.

One of Shinn's old flaws in his character is that he never thinks that he could be even slightly or possibly wrong, as everything he does is justified. Even after the Athrun talk, he rarely finds himself in a situation where he cannot find anyway to tell himself that in the end, he's no different from EA grunt #6446 where they're all just fighting and killing for their own ideals, and also to protect those precious to them. GSD missed this opportunity to instill tons of Shinn's angst by Todaka's death, and it became nothing more than an ironic turn of events.

Frankly, I too don't want to see a trio of friends in Shinn, Athrun and Kira. Not that I have anything against that, it's just that I don't see the chemistry in binding them together. Athrun and Shinn has just as much chemistry as Cagalli and Gilbert in a game of chess. Say what you want about Kira and Lacus, but you cannot deny the ....chemistry between them. Something of that sort. Actually, I would prefer for Shinn to be alligned with a REAL war veteran, not someone like Athrun. Someone who has no qualms in beating someone down for real, someone who is truly smart and capable, and is not proud in his killings for a better future. Someone who doesn't regret being a killer, doesn't deny that he's a inhuman killer but is never proud of it.
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Old 2006-07-24, 00:48   Link #54
Skyfall
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[QUOTE=Nightengale]
Frankly, I too don't want to see a trio of friends in Shinn, Athrun and Kira. Not that I have anything against that, it's just that I don't see the chemistry in binding them together. Athrun and Shinn has just as much chemistry as Cagalli and Gilbert in a game of chess. Say what you want about Kira and Lacus, but you cannot deny the ....chemistry between them. Something of that sort.


Quote:
Actually, I would prefer for Shinn to be alligned with a REAL war veteran, not someone like Athrun. Someone who has no qualms in beating someone down for real, someone who is truly smart and capable, and is not proud in his killings for a better future. Someone who doesn't regret being a killer, doesn't deny that he's a inhuman killer but is never proud of it.
You mean...just like Shinn ? Honestly, your description fits Athrun very well. Athrun is smart, capable. He doesnt have the no-kill policy exercised by Kira. Only time he has qualms of beating someone down is when hes up against his best friend , wich is quite understandable (and Shinn for the whole reason for Shinn to survive till last battle ) He kills for a better future, and he is not proud of it, he doesnt deny he is one, but he doesnt regret he is one ( unlike Kira )



Anyway, wellcome to the new crew of GSD3
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4...fusing4lx2.jpg

and new imba MS
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7...sgundamly5.jpg
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Old 2006-07-24, 00:53   Link #55
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Pathetic rip off of DBZ in the first pic. You should go post that in the Ridiculous Img thread.
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Old 2006-07-24, 00:54   Link #56
cloudedge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
1)Kira came From a mechanical pod Yes, both are from normal family, however Kiras 'family' is alive, Shinns family is killed by Kira
Actually you got the comparison wrong. They both had a normal family and childhood, until the war came and Kira found out that he was from a mechanical pod and hence "lost" his family. Kira did find out his biological parents are dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
2)Wrong. Kira went to war to protect those close to him, Shinn went to war for revenge. At that time he didnt have anyone close to him to protect.
I said the "fought the war" not join it. Kira never choose to join the war in SEED. But both end up fighting to protect the things that are important to them. If you think Shinn only fought for revenge then you never understood his character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
3)Yes, that they have. However Kiras girlfriend wasnt killed by Shinn
Kira killed Nicole, Athrun killed Tolle. They dealt with it... they understood that the circumstances. People can let go of grudges. Shinn can understand what happened to Stella was unfortunate but inevitable. And no, this change doens't have to be ooc. You only believe it's ooc, because you don't want to believe that Shinn has the potential to think intellegently and reasonably.


Quote:
Athrun didnt have patience with Shinn ? if he wouldnt have Shinn would have died at battle of ORB, or Athrun would have shot him when Shinn 'killed' Kira The only time when Athrun got really angry with him was when Shinn downed Freedom.
No, Athrun didn't really have patience with Shinn, even Hiene said that Athrun wasn't handling Shinn right. You don't bond with subordinate by slapping them in front of a bunch other people. And Athrun did punch Shinn for killing Kira. He also got angry at him when he freed the prisoner.

Quote:
And Shinn does respect Athrun - Athrun is the only one he hesitates to attack on the battlefield, while he goes straight charging at whatever it is he comes across. Its allways Reys talks that make Shinn attack Athrun.
errr, Athrun is also the only enemy Shinn had to attack that he knew. Shinn also stopped all his attack when he found out Stella was in destroy. I don't think his hestitation has anything to do with respect. But more like human reaction, it's easy to kill some faceless grunts but not someone we have met.


Quote:
Yes, he does know that. He has matured, but put Shinn and Kira in the same room for a prolonged period of time and i wouldnt bet that no accidents wouldnt happen. Yes, this change does leave room for character growth, but this change itself is 100% ooc for Shinn. He changed in a snap. Just like his relationship with Luna Fukuda just fucked up Shinn - he didnt do anything properly with him
well what exactly is the accidents are you thinking.
Kira isn't exactly someone who you can easily provoke (heck that man barely respond to anything and just stare at the sea ) And just what exactly is ooc about the change.

Quote:
Agree on that, but as i said - it happened way too fast. One moment hes ready to rip Kiras hearth out with his bare hands, then Athrun beats him to a pulp and he suddenly forgets everything ? Maybe Athrun overdid it when he was ripping Destiny a new one maybe he hit his head when he crash-landed on moon and forgot all his past
Like someone else already mentioned some time had probably pass off screen.
Also, don't forget that Shinn did spend sometime on AA/Eternal... his interaction with the other side's crew member might have allow him to see those who he had deemed "evil"...
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Old 2006-07-24, 01:04   Link #57
Nightengale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
You mean...just like Shinn ? Honestly, your description fits Athrun very well. Athrun is smart, capable. He doesnt have the no-kill policy exercised by Kira. Only time he has qualms of beating someone down is when hes up against his best friend , wich is quite understandable (and Shinn for the whole reason for Shinn to survive till last battle ) He kills for a better future, and he is not proud of it, he doesnt deny he is one, but he doesnt regret he is one ( unlike Kira )
I want someone like Pyschometrer Ikunushima, Solid Snake, Genocide Grahad Mills or someone in that calibre. The problem with the cool adult characters in SEED and GSD is that they're often very colourful individuals, making them very likable or unlikable. Mwu, Andy among a few come into mind. What I envisioned is someone who is more grey than anything else.
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Old 2006-07-24, 01:07   Link #58
cloudedge
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humm... maybe Amagi? it'd be interesting to see Amagi meet up with Shinn >.>;

for those who don't know Amagi is Tokoda's vice captain.
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Old 2006-07-24, 01:25   Link #59
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
Actually you got the comparison wrong. They both had a normal family and childhood, until the war came and Kira found out that he was from a mechanical pod and hence "lost" his family. Kira did find out his biological parents are dead.
Ok, fine, lets just agree on that one


Quote:
I said the "fought the war" not join it. Kira never choose to join the war in SEED. But both end up fighting to protect the things that are important to them. If you think Shinn only fought for revenge then you never understood his character.
Yes, i misread that one bit about 'fought the war' , not for joining it. Then it might be somewhat true, yet their feelings are quite different.

Quote:
Kira killed Nicole, Athrun killed Tolle. They dealt with it... they understood that the circumstances. People can let go of grudges. Shinn can understand what happened to Stella was unfortunate but inevitable. And no, this change doens't have to be ooc. You only believe it's ooc, because you don't want to believe that Shinn has the potential to think intellegently and reasonably.
Its hardly comparable imo, i really doubt Athrun / Kira cared for Tolle / Nicole to the extent of Shinn caring for Stellar. And lets not forget the main factor of 'getting over it' - they are best friends who have known each other since they were little.
Kiras feelings about Tolle < Kiras feelings about Athrun
Athruns feelings about Nicole < Athruns feelings about Kira
Shinns feelings about Stellar > any other feelings he had

The changes wouldnt be ooc if Shinn would have been life long buddie with Kira, but he sees Kira for the first time at the grave



Quote:
No, Athrun didn't really have patience with Shinn, even Hiene said that Athrun wasn't handling Shinn right. You don't bond with subordinate by slapping them in front of a bunch other people. And Athrun did punch Shinn for killing Kira. He also got angry at him when he freed the prisoner.
Athrun had lots of patience. He slapped him ? He disobeyed orders that time, im sure you can come up with lots harsher punishments if you decide to follow protocols Yes, he did punch him, i assume he lost all his patience there. But even after that he still was interested in talking to Shinn instead of chopping him right up (admitedly, wich he still did in the end. But later he went to pick him and Luna up from moon) Dealing with someone with Shinns character requires lots of patience, it would have been easier for Athrun not to talk with Shinn at all if he didnt want to.


Quote:
errr, Athrun is also the only enemy Shinn had to attack that he knew. Shinn also stopped all his attack when he found out Stella was in destroy. I don't think his hestitation has anything to do with respect. But more like human reaction, it's easy to kill some faceless grunts but not someone we have met.
This might be true. However Shinn is not the most soft hearthed of persons (aside from when he is with Stellar), and i think the reason for him to stop attacking is more than simply knowing the face of his oponent. He actually listens to what Athrun has to say, and that is a lot from someone like Shinn


Quote:
well what exactly is the accidents are you thinking.
Kira isn't exactly someone who you can easily provoke (heck that man barely respond to anything and just stare at the sea ) And just what exactly is ooc about the change.
Kira might not be easy to provoke, however im quite certain that given the correct circumstances Shinn can quite easilly provoke himself (see battle of Messiah when Shinn went out of controll by remembering his sister, Stellar, and Reys words. If it would go to that i think his old hatered for Kira can easilly awaken. As i said, the ooc of the change (imo) is it happening too fast for my liking (this is debatable however considering we dont know what time pased from last battle till grave scene)


Quote:
Like someone else already mentioned some time had probably pass off screen.
Also, don't forget that Shinn did spend sometime on AA/Eternal... his interaction with the other side's crew member might have allow him to see those who he had deemed "evil"...
Well i asume he spent time on Eternal since that is where Justice is docked. Maybe he did chat a bit with Lacus, and since we all know what Lacus is capable of with her talks(and dust) that might be possible. Dont know about talks with side crew - Shinn isnt exactly the person to stroll around in 'enemy' ship talking his hearth out to whomever he comes across
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Old 2006-07-24, 01:43   Link #60
Obi-Wan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Its hardly comparable imo, i really doubt Athrun / Kira cared for Tolle / Nicole to the extent of Shinn caring for Stellar. And lets not forget the main factor of 'getting over it' - they are best friends who have known each other since they were little.
Hardly. Tolle was one of Kira's best friends at the college on Heliopolis, and Nicol was the only one in Athrun's team that actually tried to understand his feelings. And both of them didn't get over it for a while, Athrun confessed his guilt about killing Kira to Cagalli and Kira broke down and cried in Lacus's arms because of the whole ordeal. I'd argue it affected them even more because both of them probably thought for a good while that they'd killed each other and had to live with that guilt forever. Kira and Athrun have a much stronger bond than Shinn could ever have hoped to have with Stella. He barely knew anything about her, and it's not like they ever talked at length about anything important.
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