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Old 2006-08-16, 15:35   Link #581
wingdarkness
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Yeah just sneeked a peek at SEI and two of the 3 new generation pilots got killed (Looked like GAIA and CHAOS' pilots)...I mean they probably all got killed but I noticed 2 red-pilots die by the hands of Sting and Steller...I can't remember if those guys were in the orginal ep one, but I guess I could go back and find out...

Also wondering what kind of training Shinn had with those guys and if atleast one was suppose to be on the MINERVA too??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
. Well, more like the unlucky ones chosen to die for a Dullindal's coordinated and predestined Destiny World.
I don't know...call me insane, but in ep 1 Dullindal is within a horseshoe toss of getting killed by CHAOS...and the action surrounding him is indeed life threatening...Now I've heard of playing it close to the vest, but man it wouldn't have took alot for Dully to have died right then and there and all his dreams to be shattered...The dude just doesn't take bad calculated chances...Ah,...just so many plot holes I don't see how any of us can claim absolutness...
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Old 2006-08-16, 15:40   Link #582
Anh_Minh
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Could be anything. Maybe he's gutsy (read: stupid).

Or maybe it's a combination of him not knowing the exact timing of the gundamjack, and Cagalli upsetting his schedule (they said her visit was sudden).
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Old 2006-08-16, 16:26   Link #583
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Could be anything. Maybe he's gutsy (read: stupid).
Oh yea, he sure was stupid enaugh to have the whole world arround his finger



Quote:

Or maybe it's a combination of him not knowing the exact timing of the gundamjack, and Cagalli upsetting his schedule (they said her visit was sudden).
Nop, Dully chose the location of the meeting, as stated by Cagali
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Old 2006-08-16, 16:27   Link #584
Anh_Minh
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Even very smart people occasionally do very stupid things.
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Old 2006-08-16, 17:24   Link #585
Obi-Wan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Nop, Dully chose the location of the meeting, as stated by Cagali
As stated by Athrun.
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Old 2006-08-16, 17:40   Link #586
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
As stated by Athrun.
Ep 1 - 8:33

Cagali : You should already know what we came here to talk about. To think that you would hold a talk in such a place and time ... << pretty much shows that they are not the ones that chose the location, no ?
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Old 2006-08-16, 17:46   Link #587
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Ep 1 - [I dont have the timecode, sue me, it's when they're in the elevator]

Athrun : I believe Chairman Durandal chose this location because you would stand out less here than at the PLANTs' homeland. << Pretty much shows that Athrun's the one who said it, not Cagalli. Don't backpedal on your story. I'm not debating the fact that Gilbert selected it, I'm debating the fact you said Cagalli said it when it was Athrun.
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Old 2006-08-16, 20:32   Link #588
Nightengale
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Gilbert is extremely smart, but at the same willing to take a ridiculous amount of risk to gain something simply for over-believing and over-estimating the capabilities of one man. If one looks at how he handled Athrun in Minerva, it's faintly obvious that one reason he chose to risk his life was to mentally confuse Athrun and lure him back into the world of MS piloting. And considering how he's also the puppetter (( more appropriately ignorer )) of Break The World, it's safe to say Break the World for Gil involves making Athrun emo so he could confuse him, and making EA attack stupidly and making them look like the bad guys.

For someone who thinks Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne are technically living war god and influence goddess, he sure as hell took a chance by sending ASHes instead of an entire fleet.

Gilbert is a smart man who works in weird ways. There's no guarentee the world will buy LOGOS, no guarentee Lacus is 120% not in ORB, no guarentee that Lacus can be killed by a few assassins + a few MS, no guarentee the world will buy something called Destiny Plan, but he goes through anyway. Smart, but an avid gambler in such matters as well. If he wins the gamble, he wins. If he loses, he loses.
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Old 2006-08-16, 21:01   Link #589
wingdarkness
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^I don't know...Dully seems to me to be a guy that handles the situations that come his way...he'll make a chess move, but he definatley expects his opponent to move...Shinn returning Steller, AA turning up to fight DESTROY, Djbril firing on the Plants...He seems to me to be the type of person who has contingencies for every situation...which means he understands that his plans won't always play-out accordingly...I don't necessarily believe his masterplan was to get Athrun on board the MINERVA and coax him...it kinda just happened and he took advantage...Athrun and Cagali could have been killed by Sting and then Dully would have went on to the next plan...

Quote:
For someone who thinks Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne are technically living war god and influence goddess, he sure as hell took a chance by sending ASHes instead of an entire fleet...Gilbert is a smart man who works in weird ways.
Ya see...Now you just said it yourself... 2+2 just doesn't seem to equal 4 when it comes to the Lacus assissination attempt...beyond the process of elimination the whole thing just isn't very clear...You know, I'm just unsettled as I tend to think the plot-holes make him seem weirder (as you put it) than he actually is...If Lacus clearly had to be taken out why not send an asteroid that looks like a piece of Junius7 that's really a Mobile Armour or better yet with a hidden nuke inside...Yes I'm being extreme because if Dully's masterplan was for them to die then that's as extreme as he should have gotten...He has shown to believe in Rey and Shinn perhaps to his final detriment, but still so many gaps in his genious yet it's still clearly visible...

Now picking Shinn as the pilot of IMPULSE is one of his side-plans that I wish was fleshed out...
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Old 2006-08-16, 23:09   Link #590
Nightengale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Now picking Shinn as the pilot of IMPULSE is one of his side-plans that I wish was fleshed out...
Watch GSD SE II. They've made a point to create official evidence of something Talia and Athur merely hinted in Phase 14.

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-08-17, 00:10   Link #591
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
Ep 1 - [I dont have the timecode, sue me, it's when they're in the elevator]

Athrun : I believe Chairman Durandal chose this location because you would stand out less here than at the PLANTs' homeland. << Pretty much shows that Athrun's the one who said it, not Cagalli. Don't backpedal on your story. I'm not debating the fact that Gilbert selected it, I'm debating the fact you said Cagalli said it when it was Athrun.
Athrun stated the possible reason behind the choice, Cagali was the first one to make a statement that this place is not of their choosing. Tho i fail to see how this is relavent in any case imaginable


As for Dully not sendind a Nuke to Lacus - well we cant have him acting with such magnitude, can we ? I mean, the Lacus can get killed if he actualy does that :P That ofc cant happen, so Kira would have to shoot down the nuke, in order to do that he should need to sense it incoming, which would be uuber lame :P
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Old 2006-08-17, 00:20   Link #592
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
As for Dully not sendind a Nuke to Lacus - well we cant have him acting with such magnitude, can we ? I mean, the Lacus can get killed if he actualy does that :P That ofc cant happen, so Kira would have to shoot down the nuke, in order to do that he should need to sense it incoming, which would be uuber lame :P
So how is Gilbert suppose to pretend to be a good-guy if he nukes a chunk of Orb off the map? This was meant to be a secret assassination. Starting a war by nuking any part of Earth is not a good idea.
Further, you can't be sure of a kill by just detonating a bomb; Gilbert needs to know Lacus is actually dead, and using a vaporising weapon makes it difficult.

And anyway, as far as we know ZAFT don't have nukes. The military still stings from how EA fling nukes around like grenades, and refuse to associate themselves with such weapons. Deathrays are more their style.
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Old 2006-08-17, 01:13   Link #593
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
For someone who thinks Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne are technically living war god and influence goddess, he sure as hell took a chance by sending ASHes instead of an entire fleet.
It's quite possible that that's all he could afford to commit without arousing suspicion. There was always a chance that they could leave and Durandal would be unable to find them again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
Gilbert is a smart man who works in weird ways. There's no guarentee the world will buy LOGOS, no guarentee Lacus is 120% not in ORB, no guarentee that Lacus can be killed by a few assassins + a few MS, no guarentee the world will buy something called Destiny Plan, but he goes through anyway. Smart, but an avid gambler in such matters as well. If he wins the gamble, he wins. If he loses, he loses.
Durandal is fairly good with plans, but he's arguably even better at taking advantage of arising situations. The only thing that he truly needed was for the world to buy the Destiny Plan, and this was the culmination of all of his plans. If any of the other situations had failed, he would simply adapt, and move on to the next phase; or he would find a way to turn a setback into an advantage. The latter is exactly what he did when Freedom ended Destroy's rampage. I find it amusing that the only setbacks that Durandal couldn't gracefully recover from had to do with Lacus.

The more I consider it, the more I think that Durandal should have been the main character rather than Shinn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
^I don't know...Dully seems to me to be a guy that handles the situations that come his way...he'll make a chess move, but he definatley expects his opponent to move...Shinn returning Steller, AA turning up to fight DESTROY, Djbril firing on the Plants...He seems to me to be the type of person who has contingencies for every situation...which means he understands that his plans won't always play-out accordingly...I don't necessarily believe his masterplan was to get Athrun on board the MINERVA and coax him...it kinda just happened and he took advantage...Athrun and Cagali could have been killed by Sting and then Dully would have went on to the next plan...
Of the examples you gave, he only anticipated Djibril's attack. Durandal exploited the rest.
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Old 2006-08-17, 02:43   Link #594
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Anybody thought about that the old orphanage was completely destroyed by the Break the World incident and when they transferred to albeit alot closer to ORB, that mansion was actually the store house for the Freedom? So ORB had Freedom and not Lacus?
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Old 2006-08-17, 02:44   Link #595
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tran
Durandal is fairly good with plans, but he's arguably even better at taking advantage of arising situations...If any of the other situations had failed, he would simply adapt, and move on to the next phase; or he would find a way to turn a setback into an advantage. The latter is exactly what he did when Freedom ended Destroy's rampage....Of the examples you gave, he only anticipated Djibril's attack. Durandal exploited the rest.
Uh...This is what I was saying...WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT...He adapts to the situations more than simply relying soley on whatever manipulation he's planned...
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Old 2006-08-17, 05:08   Link #596
Nightengale
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Gilbert's planning methods, are for one very flexible in their methods of execution in the phase that he can accept some changes and adapt to it through his own methods, even if it's doesn't exactly goes as it plans. If we assume Gilbert anticipated Djibril will fire at Aprillius(( or was it?)), that would very well put any Dullindal doubters floating in space, making Dullindal the sole dictator of PLANT, as if it wasn't enough. Even if it doesn't go as planned, the sole attack of a giant beam cannon to a PLANT would've created more Gilbert symphatizers, and they sure would put the whole fake Lacus thing in the sidelines compared to Gilbert vs a genocidal maniac.

And I wouldn't exactly say that the revelation of Lacus wounded Gilbert bad anyway. He couldn't turn the situation to his advantage, but considering what followed afterwards with Requiem, aside from a few possible defectors, and slight morale drop among the troops, he's pretty much regained most chess pieces he lost with his failed anticipation of Lacus being on ORB.

Considering how Gilbert thinks of Kira so highly, one thinks he would've attempted to recruit him rather than execute him.
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Old 2006-08-17, 08:21   Link #597
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Uh...This is what I was saying...WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT...He adapts to the situations more than simply relying soley on whatever manipulation he's planned...
What I wrote is quite a bit different from what you did. You claimed that Durandal had his actions planned out as contingencies, which requires him to foresee the actions to a rather high degree. Where we agree is that he didn't presume that all of his moves would be successful. Of the characters in Destiny, I think that only Cagalli, Jona, and to a lesser degree, Djibril were nave enough to assume that things would necessarily go the way they planned. To a degree, Shinn also shares a little of this trait, but he's not in a position of power where it would have shown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
And I wouldn't exactly say that the revelation of Lacus wounded Gilbert bad anyway. He couldn't turn the situation to his advantage, but considering what followed afterwards with Requiem, aside from a few possible defectors, and slight morale drop among the troops, he's pretty much regained most chess pieces he lost with his failed anticipation of Lacus being on ORB.
That's not entirely true. I don't think that Durandal meant to announce the Destiny plan so soon. I think that he meant to do it in drips and drabs over the course of a number of years. If he had had his way, he would have never resorted to using REQUIEM, instead, he would have always been seen as a peace-loving beneficent leader. When Lacus showed up, Meer became useless, and Durandal had to abandon years of planning to try to appeal to the world's population. She forced his hand, and he ended up doing things which would have hurt him in the long run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
Considering how Gilbert thinks of Kira so highly, one thinks he would've attempted to recruit him rather than execute him.
I have the feeling that he thought of Kira in a quasi-religious manner, which is the only real explanation for why Durandal treated him with such importance. He probably never approached Kira because he was so close to Lacus there was nothing Durandal could do to break him from her influence.
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Old 2006-08-17, 09:57   Link #598
Tak
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As a politician, Dully not only planned well, but, as some of you mentioned, took the advantage of the situation whenever possible AND, he was willing to take risks (creating a situation)! Without him taking risks, there wouldn't be any situation advantages for him.

That, and I'd have to disagree he always had a grasp of the situation. For example, the Requim could have killed him if not for the Feddie's misfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I have the feeling that he thought of Kira in a quasi-religious manner, which is the only real explanation for why Durandal treated him with such importance. He probably never approached Kira because he was so close to Lacus there was nothing Durandal could do to break him from her influence.
Certainly Dully tried. I think assasinating Lacus was Dully's first (and only) direct attempt to break Kira away from Lacus. He failed that, fortunately.

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Old 2006-08-17, 10:04   Link #599
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
As a politician, Dully not only planned well, but, as some of you mentioned, took the advantage of the situation whenever possible AND, he was willing to take risks (creating a situation)! Without him taking risks, there wouldn't be any situation advantages for him.

That, and I'd have to disagree he always had a grasp of the situation. For example, the Requim could have killed him if not for the Feddie's misfire.
What do you mean? Dully was in a secret base, unlikely to be targeted.


Quote:
Certainly Dully tried. I think assasinating Lacus was Dully's first (and only) direct attempt to break Kira away from Lacus. He failed that, fortunately.

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Old 2006-08-17, 10:10   Link #600
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
Watch GSD SE II. They've made a point to create official evidence of something Talia and Athur merely hinted in Phase 14.

Spoiler:
Your telling me they actually go into this with some type of detail concearning Shinn's selection?? Well color me amazed if that's true..
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