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Old 2006-07-24, 02:21   Link #61
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
Hardly. Tolle was one of Kira's best friends at the college on Heliopolis, and Nicol was the only one in Athrun's team that actually tried to understand his feelings. And both of them didn't get over it for a while, Athrun confessed his guilt about killing Kira to Cagalli and Kira broke down and cried in Lacus's arms because of the whole ordeal. I'd argue it affected them even more because both of them probably thought for a good while that they'd killed each other and had to live with that guilt forever. Kira and Athrun have a much stronger bond than Shinn could ever have hoped to have with Stella. He barely knew anything about her, and it's not like they ever talked at length about anything important.
True, and even if Shinn's feelings for Stellar are very strong, he'll permanently stay an idiotic character who'll never mature if he can't learn to accept the fact that it was also his fault that Stellar ended up the way she did, and that saying Kira killed her is no different from saying he himself killed her. Kira accepted that he killed Nicol, Athrun accepted that he killed Kira's friend, both accepted that it was war and there are things that can't be helped and solved the problems.
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Old 2006-07-24, 02:28   Link #62
grandmaster192
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I'm not sure what you guys are saying. Is it that Shinn can only mature by being on the same side is Kira and pretty mutch becoming another Kira type character???
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-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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Old 2006-07-24, 02:41   Link #63
monster
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Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
I'm not sure what you guys are saying. Is it that Shinn can only mature by being on the same side is Kira and pretty mutch becoming another Kira type character???
In my opinion, no. Shinn just needs to accept war for what it really is and also his part in it. But it so happens that this is something that Kira and Athrun (but moreso Kira) had already began to realize in GS.

But anyways, as a side effect, it would make it easier for Shinn to be on comfortable terms (and even be friends) with Athrun and Kira.
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Old 2006-07-24, 02:42   Link #64
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
I'm not sure what you guys are saying. Is it that Shinn can only mature by being on the same side is Kira and pretty mutch becoming another Kira type character???
Nobody said anything about fighting alongside Kira or being buddy buddy with him to be a mature character. He needs to stop being self-centered and thinking everything he does is right and never wrong, kinda like how him saving Stellar is not wrong, him returning Stellar is not wrong, him blah blah blah is right while standing properly on his own 2 feet or at least choosing to fight for an ideal he chose himself, without Force Persuasion from Darth Rey or Emperor Dullindal. Note that not once throughout the entire Destiny that Shinn thinks whatever he did on his own impulse is not wrong. Sure, he questioned Destiny plan a bit...but Shinn's is no match for the power of friendship.

Characters who can't learn to admit their mistakes will pretty much be stunned in 'mature' department. Shinn must understand that what he's doing in war is no better than what every other soldier is doing in war, and just as he despises those who caused his family's/friend's death, he creating 10 times the same amount of Shinn's who despises him for killing soldiers who also have families and friends. He needs to learn that, and still fighting knowing the consequences.

And regardless of how Shinn ends up, as long as he becomes mature, he'll naturally be less hostile and comfortable with Athrun and Kira, despite believes that Shinn is the Omega to Kira that is Alpha. All 3 of them aren't all that different from several perspectives, and they're all peace lovers.
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Old 2006-07-24, 08:55   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Nightengale
And regardless of how Shinn ends up, as long as he becomes mature, he'll naturally be less hostile and comfortable with Athrun and Kira, despite believes that Shinn is the Omega to Kira that is Alpha. All 3 of them aren't all that different from several perspectives, and they're all peace lovers.
Yes, they might all be peace lovers more or less, but they are quite different in their ways of thinking.

Kira doesnt want to fight, he is against fighting, its the last resort for him, and even then he fights trying not to kill enemy soldiers, just disable them ( whats the point in this i dont know, its not like they will start to do the same, they will just get new suits and come again )

Athrun isnt so sentimental about this thing. He kills. He doesnt feel good about it , but doesnt feel too bad about it either. He doesnt think its right, but he never holds back and is ready to kill for whatever it is hes fighting for at the moment. Unlike Kira who can be called a pacifist ( after Fllays influence has wore off ) Athrun believes justice can not allways be achieved by talks and thinks that power is needed.

Shinn believes that what he doing is right, and that all others are wrong. Hes ready to kill for his own justice. He wants piece, and is ready to bring it by wiping out everything that oposes him. He never considers killing a bad thing and never has doubts about killing.

Out of these 3 , Athrun (imo ofc) holds the most neutral stance, Hes a true soldier, but with strong sence of justice. Hes ready to switch sides if he believes that its for the best.

Kira is the pacifist who tries not to fight at all costs and tries not to kill when forced to fight

Shinn is ready to slay anything withought second thoughts that croses path with his sense of justice ( exception is Athrun )

Thats why i believe that its more likely for him to be friends with Athrun (they allready are semi-friends imo) than with Kira. Shinns opinions are indeed complete oposite with Kiras , though their goal is the same. This is not the case with Shinn and Athrun though. Their ways differ, but not as much as him with Kira.


And cut Shinn some slack about not being able to think and being easilly manipulated - when he enlisted he was 14 year old teenager whose family was obliterated in front of his eyes and his sisters torn of hand landed in front of him. You think its hard to manipulate him in that state and making him believe that all enemies = teh evilzor ?
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Old 2006-07-24, 09:19   Link #66
shaolo
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All you have to do is to have Shinn team up with Yzak and Dearka and there you go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
And cut Shinn some slack about not being able to think and being easilly manipulated - when he enlisted he was 14 year old teenager whose family was obliterated in front of his eyes and his sisters torn of hand landed in front of him. You think its hard to manipulate him in that state and making him believe that all enemies = teh evilzor ?
You be right if there wasn't some many things to take in account on Shinn at the begin of the series and at the end.

Last edited by shaolo; 2006-07-24 at 11:05.
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Old 2006-07-24, 10:34   Link #67
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Originally Posted by shaolo
All you have cto do is to have Shinn team up with Yzak and Dearka and there you go.
I dont think that teaming up ( becoming friends ) with Yzak is the best way to get over your inner demons


Quote:
You be right if there wasn't some many things to take in account on Shinn at the begin of the series and at the end.
like what
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Old 2006-07-24, 11:14   Link #68
shaolo
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Originally Posted by Skyfall
I dont think that teaming up ( becoming friends ) with Yzak is the best way to get over your inner demons
I mean team up as working together for a common goal not being friends.


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Originally Posted by Skyfall
like what

Well it will led to a rant about Seed, Destiny, and Fukuda but I am not in the mood for it.
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Old 2006-07-24, 11:37   Link #69
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Originally Posted by shaolo
I mean team up as working together for a common goal not being friends.
Well the problem is there is no goal to work forward atm for the soldiers we have to wait till Djibril Junior shows up and cooks something up So hes left with either 2 options - Living on his life and make some friends / sulking in a corner while gripping his sisters cell phone and drifting in memories about Stellar


Quote:

Well it will led to a rant about Seed, Destiny, and Fukuda but I am not in the mood for it.


too bad im writing a fanfic about GSD now and i check here from time to time to see if there is anything to discuss (have fun) to vent my mind from heavy thinking, but its quiet here today
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Old 2006-07-24, 16:47   Link #70
grandmaster192
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How about Shinn just becomes friends with a new character. Having him on Kira and Athrun's side just changes his character and makes him somthing he's not. If their gonna do that why not make him good guy thats a drifter/loner fighter. A wild card. that would be badass. Intead shinn maturing into a goody good like Kira and Athrun I would rather him mature into a badass. A badass is a open role that hasn't been filled yet. Shinn could be that character.
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-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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Old 2006-07-24, 16:58   Link #71
shaolo
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Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
How about Shinn just becomes friends with a new character. Having him on Kira and Athrun's side just changes his character and makes him somthing he's not. If their gonna do that why not make him good guy thats a drifter/loner fighter. A wild card. that would be badass. Intead shinn maturing into a goody good like Kira and Athrun I would rather him mature into a badass. A badass is a open role that hasn't been filled yet. Shinn could be that character.

I agree with the bad ass part but him becomes friends with a new character, I would have to say history may repeat itself if we are talk a series.
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Old 2006-07-24, 17:16   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
How about Shinn just becomes friends with a new character. Having him on Kira and Athrun's side just changes his character and makes him somthing he's not. If their gonna do that why not make him good guy thats a drifter/loner fighter. A wild card. that would be badass. Intead shinn maturing into a goody good like Kira and Athrun I would rather him mature into a badass. A badass is a open role that hasn't been filled yet. Shinn could be that character.
Why can't you get it through your head that Shinn as he is in Destiny is very stupid, rash, immature, and he is manipulated to hell and back? He is a fundamentally flawed character. Does it really go against his character if his old, immature self was always conflicting with Athrun and trapped in a "kill first, ask questions later" mindset while all the while he sucks on everythin Durandal says to him like it's a Charm's blow pop? Shinn gets "screwed" in the end not because he gets his ass handed to him by Athrun, but because Shinn doesn't undergo the most important, fundamental aspect of character development: the change. It seems like Shinn is getting screwed because he was the same stupid kid for the entire 50 episodes. This is due to a few things, partly because Shinn never bothered to listen to anyone other than Durandal or Rey. Athrun tried to talk some sense into him several times but Shinn was too focused on hating Athrun to listen to any of it. Athrun actually tells him some very valuable things about being someone with the kind of abilities he has during a war. Shinn blows him off and continues to clash with him for nothing more than teenage disrespect for authority. He was telling Athrun to fuck off all the way until he was defeated, and didn't realize he was wrong until after he was beaten.

Shinn, like most teenagers, thinks he knows everything and that he's always right. He also believes everything Durandal says is true, not because he actually thinks it's true himself, but because it's Durandal who's saying it. He's quick to place all his trust in someone who says something he thinks sounds good. Notice he scoffs at what Athrun says to him because of his personal dislike of Athrun. Shinn is the textbook defenition of an adolescent teenager, and his actions show this through the course of the series. The difference between Shinn and Kira/Athrun is that Kira/Athrun have the sense to look at the big picture instead of their personal world of selfishness like Shinn does. It seems by the end of Final Plus, Shinn is starting to think on his own and fight for his own reasons instead of someone else's. His principal goal is exactly the same as Kira and everyone else's . He wants a world where everyone can live in peace. What's so bad about him fighting with them if it helps him achieve his goal? Yzak doesn't exactly think Athrun is the greatest guy in the world but he fights alongside him when it counts.

But I guess Shinn can't fight with Kira or Athrun because he hated them so much during Destiny, right? He can't grow up some and patch things up with them because it would go against his old, selfish, immature self, would it? I swear, sometimes you hard-line Shinn supporters are as stubborn and one-track minded as Shinn himself.
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Old 2006-07-24, 17:38   Link #73
grandmaster192
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What I'm trying to say is that having him fight with Kira/Athrun could turn him into a Kira or Athrun JR. I would rather him fight alone and maybe sometimes help Kira/Athrun. I don't see why you think he needs to be on Kira/Athrun team to mature.
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-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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Old 2006-07-24, 18:26   Link #74
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
What I'm trying to say is that having him fight with Kira/Athrun could turn him into a Kira or Athrun JR. I would rather him fight alone and maybe sometimes help Kira/Athrun. I don't see why you think he needs to be on Kira/Athrun team to mature.
Yzak, Dearka, Mwu, Andy, Barry, Jean, etc all fought alongside Kira and Athrun so they're all Kira/Athrun Jrs?

Yzak and Dearka are technically a branch of Kira/Athrun team. Everyone fighting for the good side...aka Lacus and ORB alliance are technically a branch of the Kira/Athrun team. The main difference is that Shinn actually knows Athrun personally, and Shinn already accepted Kira's invitation.

Firstly, having a same goal with Kira and Athrun alone is enough to warrant him fighting alongside them. Again, just because Kira doesn't prefer killing and tries not to kill when he can doesn't mean that he forced his battle philosophies/opinions on Athrun or anyone at all for that matter. Because he never. Kira's own choices in war is due to his idealistic viewpoint of the enemies he face in war. To Kira, the wacko pointing a beam saber towards him is technically no different from a random civilian. The enemy he face may very well be someone like Athrun whom he fought many times in SEED, or even someone like him who fought to protect his friends. I personally think that Kira's personality deems that the people he failed to save and the people he killed with his own hands are one and the same. In the end, there would be people in grief. He took 2 years of serenity and peace to get over that.

In the first place, why must you get the impression that being alongside Kira and Athrun will influence his personality?
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Old 2006-07-24, 18:31   Link #75
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Well you knew it was coming, so here it is....

You know my grandfather is 75 years old and is stubborn as hell...He was in the Korean War and when the war was over he didn't cry and shake the first Korean hand he saw in America, he became an even more stubborn SOB...As stubborn and hard to deal with he is now when I was a kid he was 10 times worse and when he was a young man my Grandma said he was 50 times worse than that(and we all still love him)...My point here is that some people don't magically change, they don't magically grow whether or not that's what you pine for...They don't magically forget the demons that haunt them whether or not it pi$$ess you off...That's the real flaw of human beings...That's one of the true flaws of Shinn Asuka and should never be swept under the rug to meet expectations (especially from those who hated his character before he ever said "IMPULSE Launching!!!")...

I'll ignore for a moment Shinn's final performance that was quite lacking and unbelievable and move on to the scene where Athrun veers off to pick up Shinn who has just witnessed everything he has ever fought for destroyed...Dullindal and Rey who he admired are both dead and gone now...This is coming from someone who understands and supported Shinn's character despite the lack of care the writers gave him, but the Shinn Asuka I know wouldn't have hopped on Athrun's hand and flown to wherever the hell Athrun took him, he would have perhaps told Luna to go but he would have crawled into that torn-up DESTINY cockpit (Perhaps even IMPULSEs) and he would have hot-wired that sonovb!tch if he had to because that's our stubborn loveable bastard... That would have been true to his character...He's an idiot at times, over-impulsive like the Gundam that beared the same name, has a strong will, is more cunning than ever given credit for being, and at the age of 16 unlike Kira or Athrun put the responsibility OF IT ALL on his shoulders with no regrets...

In a world where there is no right or wrong side, no true unequivocal answer...It was Shinn Asuka who made the choice to use his power to stop all wars...Is he right to be who he is? Dullindal explained it all too well as he is a product of the hate...Should he learn to accept the views of others, should he view war in a different light than the one that's peircing thru his bloodshot red-eyes? Perhaps he should, but never to appease his detractors...

He sold out to Dullindal? Athrun did the same thing and didn't change his mind until he was given visible proof (Even Kira had moments inwhich he wanted to believe Dully)..Shinn was doing what solidiers do...I'm sure all of you Shinn re-creators could have done a better job ...Dullindal pimped the entire EARTH and PLANTS (This is billions of people) yet somehow Shinn is the one idiot for believing in him and for doing what any young impressionable soilder would do and that's follow the command of his leader (Which didn't prove to be anything course at the time)...Oh no he should have listened to Athrun , a character that was incapable of speaking to him in any effective manner after he was SAVOIRED...Who went into his room and sulked day after day making the young soilder feel as if he had to be the strength for his friends and shipmates...Who had chances to pull Shinn aside and talk to him as a man, but was as scared as a cornered cat...Thanks but no thanks...Shinn became evenmore determined and exceled because he took the challenge head-on...He wasn't 500% percent sure all that he was doing would be right, but he was 500% sure that he wasn't gonna sit on the sidelines and sulk; he was gonna make a DECISION (unlike his FAITH counterpart)...

And speaking of FAITH it seems to me the "arrogant Shinn Asuka" that many hate doesn't seem to care much about Nebula medals and FAITH badges as he has shown that he's embarrased that people even look at him in that light (see the ep when he gets his medals)...He's only concearned with using his power to end all wars not the vanity of the position...The boy has heart and a genuine shyness around those who want to praise him with awards...

But like I said it's always fun the hear people who hated a certain character give advice on how he should change to meet their criteria, ignoring what makes that character enjoyable to those who actually supported him...it's really hysterical as I read what these people want him to be to fit in their back pockets...So I reject ALL CONTENTIONS that he come to an understanding or matures in a way that betrays what Shinn supporters valued about his character (That betrays the development of his character in general), because that's the character you want Shinn Asuka to be not the one he was suppose to be...The tear-jerking, hand-shaking, bygones be bygones Shinn Asuka isn't anyone I know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tran
If his character can mature, then he can end up as a great character. Frankly, I would much rather see his character grow than to see him transformed into the villain.
Well in all honesty how can 5 mins of character raping (In final Plus) starkly change his transformation?? (I mean he matured within 5 minutes of Final + more than 50 episodes of anime) While I agree it probably can, if Final Plus doesn't end on that extremely poor note of selfishly turning Shinn's entire series of development against him in a matter of minutes (for the sake of doing so) it would be easy to accept or think about Shinn perhaps going into the shadows and coming back as a decisive bad or rouge character...Again he's not Athrun, he's not Kira...He's not even Yzak or Dearka...He is dark hero who instead of letting his jaded, conflicted emotions hamper his descisions in life, he used it as the source for his power...Like human beings he is flawed in this way...Like my grandfather it might take 70 years for him to change...Not that i would hope that, but it's certainley more believable than what we got...Which is Shinn now being teammate #3 in the Lacus approved Gundam hiearchy....Which is an embarrasment IMO if it stands...Give me the lovable SOB anyday of the week over a lobotomized version...Either that or have a modicum of respect for the character and let him rest never to be heard from again...

And this is my take on Shinn's character....
I would love to hear Shinn supporters response to my take...
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Old 2006-07-24, 19:31   Link #76
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So Shinn should be a stupid, confused, angry asshole forever because you want him to be that way? Your opinions on him are more or less are the exactly what you just said, molding him to fit into your pocket. There's ample reason to at least understand why Athrun joined ZAFT again and then bailed later on. Durandal specifically said when he recruited him that he gave him the FAITH badge so that he could do what he wanted when the going got tough. Then Athrun finds out that Durandal had a hidden agenda to take out Archangel and was about to whack him because of his past allegiances, so he takes off and somehow that's wrong. If it's within the scope of his powers in FAITH, why the fuck not? Athrun had a perfectly good reason to bail on Durandal, he even said it to Meer, they're only good to Durandal if they play their little roles and be good brainwashed drones. Shinn couldn't understand that because he was sucking on the blow pops harder than anyone. And let's not forget that when Shinn did start to hesitate, and think for a second, "maybe this guy is right," Rey was already right there to label Athrun a liar or a traitor and urge Shinn to shoot him down. Just because he was following Durandal doesn't change the fact that Durandal was wrong and that he wasn't able to see this. Athrun was.

wingdarkness, that kind of long lasting hatred you talk about is exactly why wars continue. Should Shinn be the bad guy dropping a colony on Earth in the next series because he still thinks Durandal was right? It's astonishing that you write off what happened in Final Plus, saying "the Shinn I know would've done this" because obviously you don't know him that well since he did jump into Justice's hand and go back to Orb. Final Plus is canon, and scoreboard doesn't lie. If you want Shinn to never set foot on Justice's palm, go write a god damn fanfic about it. People can change, especially young people. I don't see what's so hard to get grasp about it.
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Old 2006-07-24, 19:40   Link #77
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Your post is as predictable as usual...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
So Shinn should be a stupid, confused, angry asshole forever because you want him to be that way?
My point exactly friend...this is coming from someone who truley lacks understanding this character in anyway beyond the surface...A character you have admitted to hating since episode 1...This is all you see which is why debating you on this is fruitless for me...I won't engage in another meaningless discussion with you, my post is clear and I expect many to understand where I am coming from...I much rather wait for 4tran's response to me which will most likely challenge me...
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Old 2006-07-24, 19:44   Link #78
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I agree with wingdarkness on this but this is one of many things I didn't like about Destiny.


I have to get this off my. I like Fukuda's ideas on the CE universe but his presentation on it just sucks.
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Old 2006-07-24, 19:48   Link #79
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Well, I'm not exactly Shinn's biggest supporter....I'm a Kira fan after all. I also think Jona is potentially more awesome than Dullindal himself.

To me, I always thought that it was somewhat obvious that Shinn's personal demons as you put it is purely made up. From the vague hints the show and Athrun throw around, I think Shinn never really hated ORB for his family's death and more so on his own weakness for failing to protect his family due to his powerlessness, a same stigma Kira went through in SEED and vaguely implied in GSD.

Not to mention my biggest beef with Shinn was how his apparently hinted character development moments fruited to....nothing at all.

In Zeta, Kamille was hinted that he would eventually grow out of his immature style of thinking. In the end, he was still somewhat an ass, but the character development did actually occur and he became more mature. in SEED, Kira was implied that sooner or later, Kira's character would break down and face inner torment. He did, and he grew out of it. EVERYTHING THAT WAS VAGUELY PROMISED OR HINTED IN THE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT SECTOR HAPPENED.

Not with Shinn.

He never reflects on his ridiculuous actions. He never starts thinking that he is no different from the enemies he kill. He never starts questioning the value of his strength. He never starts thinking the justice of his actions.

In a way, the whole episodes where Athrun had talks with him, Todaka's death, the massacre of Berlin....all kind of made a moot point. If they really wanted Shinn to be the way he was in Phase 40 to 50, barring Plus, more time should've been spent on Shinn finding a father figure in Dullindal..or a brother figure in Rey...or SOMETHING that actually reflects that he'll eventually fall into the lies of Dullindal.
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Old 2006-07-24, 20:07   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Your post is as predictable as usual...

My point exactly friend...this is coming from someone who truley lacks understanding this character in anyway beyond the surface...A character you have admitted to hating since episode 1...This is all you see which is why debating you on this is fruitless for me...I won't engage in another meaningless discussion with you, my post is clear and I expect many to understand where I am coming from...I much rather wait for 4tran's response to me which will most likely challenge me...
Your post is equally as predictable, telling me I don't understand anything and that I can't reply to you because you want discuss Gundam with Harvard grads. Please, don't patronize me you callow mother fucker. I understand Shinn plenty, but because I am of the dissenting opinion you wan't abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with me and feel the need to blast my opinion like we're playing Duck Hunt. Because I dislike a character, I don't have the right to talk about him rationally? Give me a break, you high and mighty son of a bitch....

However, I understand that there is more than my personal feelings about characters in the big picture (which you, "friend," do not). I'm not rattling off bullshit here because I'm still bitter that my favorite character in an animated cartoon didn't turn out the way I wanted him to. I'm looking at the whole scheme of things and seeing that despite his wishes to end the war so there would be peace, his reasons for fighting were fundamentally skewed, he clashed with every authority figure that came before him except Durandal, he perpetually blamed other people for bad things happening to him despite nearly all of it being an unfortunate circumstance at war, and he continually thought he had the right to do whatever he wanted whether or not it was ethically or legally right. I mean we are talking about a boy who told his superior to shut up in the middle of battle. The boy who endangered his entire crew by bringing an enemy aboard (and endangered the life of any given person in the free world by returning her to her forces, not to mention assaulted his own comrades in the process). You're going to sit here and tell me that immaturity isn't a problem and he should stay that way forever? What the fuck are you smoking and where can I buy some? Yeah, sure, Shinn had noble ideals, but you don't exactly achieve peace by saying "I'll kill anyone who stands in my way." All that does is create other people who will blame the enemy for their loved one getting killed. Rinse, dry, repeat. But Shinn seems to have figured a little something out at the end. He hasn't completely changed like Kira and Athrun changed after their big showdown, but he's taken a few steps in the right direction. Obviously if he remained the immature person he was, then any future dealings will inevitably turn out the same, with his Gundam all busted on some asteroid. I really think Shinn will be a better character, one that I could truly like and enjoy, if he grows up some. Maybe you think he shouldn't grow up, but if that's the case, then I don't think you understand Shinn nearly as well as you think.
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