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Old 2006-07-24, 20:13   Link #81
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitengale
If they really wanted Shinn to be the way he was in Phase 40 to 50, barring Plus, more time should've been spent on Shinn finding a father figure in Dullindal..or a brother figure in Rey...or SOMETHING that actually reflects that he'll eventually fall into the lies of Dullindal

This is what we can agree on..I mean I'm not coming out of the woodworx, you know my feelings on Shinn and have known for some time now...My gripe is if you were gonna underdevlop the hell outta the character (via personal preference or just as a byproduct of deadlines), you betray everyone that had hopes for or supported the character by advancing his development in a way that betrays the core of his character that is presented...This shouldn't be so odd for you to understand and the fact that Shinn's turnabout is canon is meaningless...Alot of things that are canon suck-a$$ or are not presented well...Since you never really did support the character it's easy to see why you don't quite get where I am coming from( I mean you get what I am saying but not enuff to support it)...But for the life of me I still can't understand how one could accept his turnabout and not feel a supreme weirdness for what happens in his final development (despite their like or hate)...


Quote:
EVERYTHING THAT WAS VAGUELY PROMISED OR HINTED IN THE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT SECTOR HAPPENED...Not with Shinn.
So please understand how a forced (just to end) happy ending is meaningless to many who supported the character...Those who sit on the other side of the fence are welcome to tell us what they believe should happen with a character they wouldn't like unless he conformed to thier side, but to act as authorities is where I draw the line...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaolo
I agree with wingdarkness on this but this is one of many things I didn't like about Destiny.
Thanks, but I am curious what you really mean..I mean can you go into a little more depth in what you are saying so I can understand better...

(Once again ignores the meaningless baiting of the post before mines for an actual strong discussion...The anger validates all my points...Thanks)
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Old 2006-07-24, 20:22   Link #82
grandmaster192
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Well my opinion is that Shinn does need to mature. Now I don't think that just putting him on Athrun and Kira's team is the right way to do it. I think he should be a loner that fights for his goals. If his and Kira's goals are the same then I think it would be best that Shinn and Kira take different paths to get what they want. Shinn might not to do things that Lacus way. If he is gonna be a good guy then let him be a loner that fights for justice. He doesn't need to be with Kira and Athrun to mature.
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-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis

Last edited by grandmaster192; 2006-07-24 at 20:35.
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Old 2006-07-24, 20:25   Link #83
wingdarkness
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Don't worry Shining Greatness I'm not falling for it this time around..I think it's important for this discussion to have merits from both sides of the fence so i would appreciate it if you deleted that statement as not to encourage this and tell me if you have an opinion on my analysis..You seem to be a Shinn-supporter so I would really love to hear it...Don't be afraid to say what you truley feel...
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Old 2006-07-24, 20:37   Link #84
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
tell me if you have an opinion on my analysis..You seem to be a Shinn-supporter so I would really love to hear it...Don't be afraid to say what you truley feel...
Well I'm not really sure what you want from Shinn.
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-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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Old 2006-07-24, 20:55   Link #85
M_Flores
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As an average viewer (as in, I'm an audience who just watches the show just for the sake, not really to professionally analyse the plot, etc. etc.) in the audience, I actually kinda liked what Shinn was in the show. He was the typical berserker, you gotta love it when he screams "KONNNNNOOOO!!!!" and begins the RAWR CHARGE STAB with the Arondight or boomerang toss, whatever, plus the wings of light thing that Destiny has kinda matches his berseker shit thing because it makes you think about his fiery rage or anger, etc.
That power-up thing in Shining's avatar is sooo Shinn. You won't see Kira or Athrun cut sick like that because they're supposedly more mature.
I also liked how he got sliced by Athrun - Shinn kinda lost, but he got sliced up in a pretty cool way. It's also pretty cool how he always tries to crush something with the palm cannon, but fails sometimes and its so fun to watch.
It's really entertaining to watch his "fuck that, eat this!" fighting style in the show. He's like a GS Yzak, but hyped up. Off the battlefield, he was a bit of an emo kid, blindly following orders of some sly chairman, which was also a change from the typical 'hero who realizes his place and does what is right', etc. His stubborness, rage and complaints were somehow entertaining and there was Kira and Athrun to put him in his place, so it balances out the show, kinda.

This sold right to me into buying 1/100 scale GSD model kits.
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Old 2006-07-24, 21:32   Link #86
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
But for the life of me I still can't understand how one could accept his turnabout and not feel a supreme weirdness for what happens in his final development (despite their like or hate)...
Well the main reason for me to accept it is because it happened. What else can I do about it, of course it didn't hurt that I liked it anyway. Though I don't think I'm a Shinn hater, I'm closer to neutral when it comes to his character.

Anyways, I think that with the way things happened in GSD and all the anguish that Shinn suffered he turned into fighting to relieve himself. But the thing is he wasn't able to do so. He tried to help his sister but all it did was left him alive while his family died. Then he joined ZAFT but the war ended, and when he was getting used to the idea of peace the theft at Armory 1 and the fall of Junius 7 happened. And at that same time Cagalli showed up which refueled the feelings he had kept. Next he tried to save Stellar but it failed and when he tries to avenge her his satisfaction was tainted by Athrun's unexpected reaction and later by the appearance of the new Freedom. And then there's the case with Athrun's betrayal, the "death of Meyrin", and Athrun's return as well along with Freedom.

I actually believe that even though he lost some respect for Athrun in the course of GSD, he still had some left. After all, Rey was just an ordinary acquaintance and Dullindal was nothing more than an authority figure to him, at least in the beginning. He respect them too but he didn't see them as the sufficiently skilled hero of the last war who stayed to try breaking Junius 7 further after they were ordered to retreat, in other words they didn't quite have the same impact on him as Athrun did. Shinn probably started to want to be more like Athrun. So the fact that Athrun seemed to not understand him irks Shinn more than anything else.

And this sort of built up to the point that in the last battle he was so enraged that he almost killed Lunamaria, the person in whom he started to find some comfort. And then Shinn cracked.

The higher you climb the longer the fall. And this is also why I can see him turning around after that point. He was so exhausted psychologically after that battle he started having vision, and when he came around he saw his world collapsing around him and he had little will left to fight. So when Athrun offered Infinite Justice's hand he accepted it. And later on, he was more receptive of Athrun and Kira's offer.

Well, that's just how I see it. And I figured something a little similar happening with Rey only more easily because he hides his feelings most of the time and it wasn't even his true feelings. But this is getting off topic.
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Old 2006-07-24, 21:47   Link #87
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Flores
As an average viewer (as in, I'm an audience who just watches the show just for the sake, not really to professionally analyse the plot, etc. etc.) in the audience, I actually kinda liked what Shinn was in the show. He was the typical berserker, you gotta love it when he screams "KONNNNNOOOO!!!!" and begins the RAWR CHARGE STAB with the Arondight or boomerang toss, whatever, plus the wings of light thing that Destiny has kinda matches his berseker shit thing because it makes you think about his fiery rage or anger, etc.
That power-up thing in Shining's avatar is sooo Shinn. You won't see Kira or Athrun cut sick like that because they're supposedly more mature.
I also liked how he got sliced by Athrun - Shinn kinda lost, but he got sliced up in a pretty cool way. It's also pretty cool how he always tries to crush something with the palm cannon, but fails sometimes and its so fun to watch.
It's really entertaining to watch his "fuck that, eat this!" fighting style in the show. He's like a GS Yzak, but hyped up. Off the battlefield, he was a bit of an emo kid, blindly following orders of some sly chairman, which was also a change from the typical 'hero who realizes his place and does what is right', etc. His stubborness, rage and complaints were somehow entertaining and there was Kira and Athrun to put him in his place, so it balances out the show, kinda.

This sold right to me into buying 1/100 scale GSD model kits.
Although I love to analyse themes, plots, and character dynamics much of what you said is also reasons why I like Shinn...I like that he seems to have a geniune disposition towards others...and as far as superficial stuff goes he gets me hype whenever he gets mad and goes on a tyraid...there's something real about his character that I don't find in Kira or Athrun's character, GSD Kira morso (It's like I know people like Shinn, disrespetful, arrogant at times, yet good-hearted)...Now Kira in Gundam SEED despite his emo-ness I thought he was great, and Fllay-powered Kira still ranks so high on my personal G-list, but like you said his vastly different and even seemingly immature (however decisive) personality entertains me and I think his character was more deserving of a RATIONAL final development that didn't betray his character IMHO....But that's what i like, his power-up scenes just have a different feel that like you I am simply entertained by...

Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert
I actually believe that even though he lost some respect for Athrun in the course of GSD, he still had some left. After all, Rey was just an ordinary acquaintance and Dullindal was nothing more than an authority figure to him, at least in the beginning. He respect them too but he didn't see them as the sufficiently skilled hero of the last war who stayed to try breaking Junius 7 further after they were ordered to retreat, in other words they didn't quite have the same impact on him as Athrun did. Shinn probably started to want to be more like Athrun. So the fact that Athrun seemed to not understand him irks Shinn more than anything else.

And this sort of built up to the point that in the last battle he was so enraged that he almost killed Lunamaria, the person in whom he started to find some comfort. And then Shinn cracked.
Good points and also good use of the red-word^^...I also agree with the fact Athruns lack of understanding of his feelings is what irks him so much at that point...I still believe had Athrun said the pilot of FREEDOM is the pilot of STRIKE (Which he defeated) could have perhaps given Shinn some incentive to listen to him (During his and Rey's Freedom planning), but as said Athrun's indecisive behavior while Shinn was ascending as the sole defender and protector of the Minerva is what throttled Shinn's disrespective nature a bit(From Shinn's perspective he doesn't have time to stew over right and wrong like Athrun; He has a responsibility to get the Minerva to the next destination)...You can cleary see their was atleast 5 or 6 scenes where Shinn looks at Athrun in a manner to say "Talk!, tell me what's on your mind..." and all Athrun can muster is a "Shinn..." followed by a dramatic pause...Foolhearty or not Shinn was about the next battle after he saw the Minerva and all his friends nearly destroyed in the events of episode 28...
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2006-07-24 at 22:04. Reason: monstert's response
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Old 2006-07-24, 21:53   Link #88
cloudedge
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(I think) You know I'm a die hard Cagalli fan... but I have mentioned this before I also adore Shinn. In fact he's my fav. male character in GSD now and he's rivaling with Cagalli for the top spot so that says a lot

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
My point here is that some people don't magically change, they don't magically grow whether or not that's what you pine for...They don't magically forget the demons that haunt them whether or not it pi$$ess you off...That's the real flaw of human beings...
This is true, which is why not every real human being make interesting main characters. And not every real human being's life story make a compelling biography.


Quote:
That's one of the true flaws of Shinn Asuka and should never be swept under the rug to meet expectations...
So you're saying it's part of Shinn's character to be unable to change? And unable to realize that maybe he was used by people for their own purpose? And that perhaps he really didn't just hate Orb, that he also still hold feelings for it?

Yes, Shinn's (occassionally) prejudice, and he has his pride. But even he had doubts of Dully's destiny plan. He is not a dumb kid, he DOES think. He's probably a smart kid if you ask my opinion. He did graduate 2nd (and He READS! as a leisure! How many guys read nowadays ) He just asks the wrong person for his opinion (Rey). So is it really that impossible for him to realize after the 2nd war ended that Dully was using him afterall? Is it really impossible for him to try to sort out his feelings once peace has come and he's not busy trying to strive for power (in the academy)

Shinn was manipulated once. But he doesn't have to forever hold the those belief for the rest of his life. Cagalli was manipulated once too. That doesn't mean she has to stay manipulated forever. And if you ask me Cagalli is equally stubborn.

Quote:
but the Shinn Asuka I know wouldn't have hopped on Athrun's hand and flown to wherever the hell Athrun took him, he would have perhaps told Luna to go but he would have crawled into that torn-up DESTINY cockpit (Perhaps even IMPULSEs) and he would have hot-wired that sonovb!tch if he had to because that's our stubborn loveable bastard...
sounds about right... though Shinn's action had been thoroughly confusing that epsiode >.>; perhaps an eternal rescue crews picking him up might have made more sense... or maybe he should have been unconsious lol ^^;
But I do think that after being on Eternal to Orb and after a good few months of thinking in peace, the Shinn in Final Plus "can" happen.

Quote:
That would have been true to his character...He's an idiot at times, over-impulsive like the Gundam that beared the same name, has a strong will, is more cunning than ever given credit for being, and at the age of 16 unlike Kira or Athrun put the responsibility OF IT ALL on his shoulders with no regrets...

In a world where there is no right or wrong side, no true unequivocal answer...It was Shinn Asuka who made the choice to use his power to stop all wars...Is he right to be who he is?
yup, that's the babe I love. And I don't see how this has to be compromised even after he realize he had did something "wrong" in the past. In fact, he can even forget that he had did something wrong before at times. And still be a little cocky, egolistic rebel at heart with a tongue that stints - I totally don't want to see him turn into a Kira/Athrun drone (god forbid!). But I don't see why he mustn't ever realize the path he had travelled wasn't the one that lead to his wish, and also try to take some baby steps at dealing with his grieve.


Quote:
Dullindal explained it all too well as he is a product of the hate...
That'st the Shinn Dullindal wants him to be. That's the Shinn that is useful to him. Why else do you think Rey was provoking Shinn's anger when they had to capture Athrun? (He didn't need to anger to make him stronger, he was already in a more powerful suit. He needed Shinn to be angry to listen to his order.)

Why else do you think Rey doesn't like Luna getting too close and comfort Shinn? Because when Shinn cease to hate, when he stops being the hurt lost orphant with power and talent beyound his own realization, Dully might not be able to control him, just like he lost control of Athrun when Athrun cease to be the lost soldier looking for direction to the path of justice.

Quote:
Should he learn to accept the views of others, should he view war in a different light than the one that's peircing thru his bloodshot red-eyes? Perhaps he should, but never to appease his detractors...
No one wants him to adopt another person's view on how the world should run (And last of all from Lacus! *fume*) But Dully's view isn't Shinn's either. Do you really believe Shinn geniunely want to fire Neo Genisis at Orb? That he really wish for Destiny Plan (with all those hidden string attached). He wanted peace and a happy life where orphants like him don't exist. He didn't want to lose anymore love ones. He didn't want to be powerless. That was what he wanted and he can still hold those.

Quote:
He sold out to Dullindal? Athrun did the same thing and didn't change his mind until he was given visible proof (Even Kira had moments inwhich he wanted to believe Dully)..Shinn was doing what solidiers do...I'm sure all of you Shinn re-creators could have done a better job ...Dullindal pimped the entire EARTH and PLANTS (This is billions of people) yet somehow Shinn is the one idiot for believing in him and for doing what any young impressionable soilder would do and that's follow the command of his leader (Which didn't prove to be anything course at the time)...
I don't think being manipulated means he's an idoit... Cagalli was being manipulated too... they are both a bit too trusting to those that are on the same side a bit too much... but that's what I like about them... they trust people in general. (unlike some pop star :cough: )


Quote:
Oh no he should have listened to Athrun , a character that was incapable of speaking to him in any effective manner after he was SAVOIRED...Who went into his room and sulked day after day making the young soilder feel as if he had to be the strength for his friends and shipmates...Who had chances to pull Shinn aside and talk to him as a man, but was as scared as a cornered cat...Thanks but no thanks...Shinn became evenmore determined and exceled because he took the challenge head-on...He wasn't 500% percent sure all that he was doing would be right, but he was 500% sure that he wasn't gonna sit on the sidelines and sulk; he was gonna make a DECISION (unlike his FAITH counterpart)...
Thanks for explaining why Athrun is a horrible mentor.
Honestly Shinn would have turn out so different hand Heine be his mentor instead he got stuck with Athrun (who have no idea what he's doing in the war either).

Quote:
He's only concearned with using his power to end all wars not the vanity of the position...The boy has heart and a genuine shyness around those who want to praise him with awards...
love those parts to bits. And the innocent face he got when Dully gave him Destiny. He was truly admiring the MS and acted like he must be dreaming that Dully entrusted it to him (such a cute kid who have no clue just how strong he was).

Quote:
So I reject ALL CONTENTIONS that he come to an understanding or matures in a way that betrays what Shinn supporters valued about his character (That betrays the development of his character in general), because that's the character you want Shinn Asuka to be not the one he was suppose to be...The tear-jerking, hand-shaking, bygones be bygones Shinn Asuka isn't anyone I know...
So... you're saying that Shinn supporters valued he is "unchangable" and "inability to ever realize he had once took a wrong path?" I'm just confused, Shinn certainly isn't the kind of guy that likes to appologize, but he isn't eactly that inflexible. I mean if he really always hold his own opinion, then he wouldn't ask Rey what he thinks about the two Lacus and Dully's Destiny Plan.

I mean, sure, Shinn always give 110% to do with he thinks is right, but when he realize he had do something wrong, he would give just as much effort to correct it. This is shown when in his scene with Stella when he realized that yelling at her had pushed her into panic mode (not realizing he said her block word), and he use just as much effort to correct that and comfort her.

He also isn't someone who would never give in his way. Just look at when he told Luna that she shouldn't be the decoy (I think?) and Luna said it was equally dangerous for them, so it doesn't matter. Shinn can be convinced and can change his mind.

Like all men, you just need to say convince them the right way

Quote:
Well in all honesty how can 5 mins of character raping (In final Plus) starkly change his transformation?? (I mean he matured within 5 minutes of Final + more than 50 episodes of anime)
No, he didn't matured in 5 min. Fukuda robbed us of the process of how he changed. The 5min clip just displayed (I refuse to use show) that he had matured (somewhat) and changed (note the past tense). We were not show how that happened, but that it DID happened.


Quote:
While I agree it probably can, if Final Plus doesn't end on that extremely poor note of selfishly turning Shinn's entire series of development against him in a matter of minutes (for the sake of doing so)
What was Shinn's development in the series prior to Final Plus? He started as a lost, grieving, tender heart yet angry orphant who seeked power. Power was bestowed on him by Dully to do his biddings. And he essentially stayed that way until eps 50. He never found his way to protect his love ones (anger almost robbed him of Luna), he never stop grieving and he never learn to control his anger.

Quote:
He is dark hero who instead of letting his jaded, conflicted emotions hamper his descisions in life, he used it as the source for his power...
Did he consciously use his anger to become more powerful? If he had, then perhaps he was who you were describing. I don't think he ever did manage to get a handle on that emotion. It fluxiates affects he performance, sometimes better sometimes for worse (as seen in his fight with Athrun). It doesn't always work and he doesn't exactly know how to control it either.

It wasn't like he consciously made a choice to let himself submerge in anger so he can become stronger... if he had consciously choose to trade eternal anger for more power (like Darth Fater did) than I agree with you and we'll worship this dark hero together.

But all through GSD, he was reacting to this emotion, letting it drive his action. Sometimes it benefit him, sometimes it hampers him. He doesn't really understand what it's doing to him. All I care is that Shinn realize what he is doing... and imo when he does, he'll see that the world he hoped for... wasn't that far from the one Kira and Athrun had hoped for.
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:11   Link #89
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Whew :sweatdrip: ...

You gotta give me a minute to re-charge ...You'll get some deep responses to the deep questions you've asked...I promise cloudedge...
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:15   Link #90
cloudedge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Whew :sweatdrip: ...

You gotta give me a minute to re-charge ...You'll get some deep responses to the deep questions you've asked...I promise cloudedge...
lol i was suprise when I hit refresh I'm like.. he responded that quickly lol ^^
sure I always enjoy reading your post
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:32   Link #91
grandmaster192
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Shinn kinda reminds me of Shadow the hedgehog.
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"There's one more thing required to attain total peace: a strong heart that can empathize with people! Like yours... You're too pure and kind, but I guess that's what gives you the right to live. I'm going to live right to the bitter end! I'll live the hard life of a warrior! 'Till we meet again, Heero!"

-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:36   Link #92
M_Flores
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
Shinn kinda reminds me of Shadow the hedgehog.
He reminds me of Axl from Megaman X7.
He's not really as popular as the others because he's a new main character. He's pretty much an all rounder in the game and he seems like the most immature as well.

Kira = Megaman X (the blue coloured, long range beam spammer who doesnt trust the 'new guy' and is the 'real' main character and has the strongest main character armor)

Athrun = Zero (Megaman's best friend. He's RED, ffs. And what's more, he's a melee based fighter too, and he's basically who introduces Megaman to him and convinces Megaman to give him a chance)
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:39   Link #93
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Flores
He reminds me of Axl from Megaman X7.
He's not really as popular as the others because he's a new main character. He's pretty much an all rounder in the game and he seems like the most immature as well.

Kira = Megaman X (the blue coloured, long range beam spammer who doesnt trust the 'new guy' and is the 'real' main character and has the strongest main character armor)

Athrun = Zero (Megaman's best friend. He's RED, ffs. And what's more, he's a melee based fighter too, and he's basically who introduces Megaman to him and convinces Megaman to give him a chance)
I think Shinn's personaltiy is more like Zero's the Athruns. I see Kira as Sonic, Athrun as knuckles and Shinn as Shadow. And Durandill can be eggman!
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"There's one more thing required to attain total peace: a strong heart that can empathize with people! Like yours... You're too pure and kind, but I guess that's what gives you the right to live. I'm going to live right to the bitter end! I'll live the hard life of a warrior! 'Till we meet again, Heero!"

-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:40   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Flores
and he's basically who introduces Megaman to him and convinces Megaman to give him a chance)
Unfortunately, Athrun introduced Kira to Shinn much later in the show than what I had hoped for.
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:45   Link #95
M_Flores
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Greatness
I think Shinn's personaltiy is more like Zero's the Athruns. I see Kira as Sonic, Athrun as knuckles and Shinn as Shadow. And Durandill can be eggman!
Zero wasn't really that immature or as misguided as Shinn/Axl, lol
Zero has Athrun/Justice written all over him. The red close combat melee fighter that looks like a girl. That's just so Athrun/Justice.

EDIT:

Zero also has a habit of self-destructing/sacrificing self throughout Megaman series
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:47   Link #96
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HEllo all. I have a feeling this thread may erupt into a flame war soon. but before than im gonna post my opinions on it.

To me destiny sucked period. Reasonings have been expressed hundreds of times. when a show give you feelings of frustration and anger you know its not a good show to watch. Unlike seed i stopped watching destiny as it was approaching a close. thats how bad it was. seed had me pumped to the end.

As for shinn. His character was betrayed. He was a guy who was lied to (by neo). involved in a dispute between people he barely knew (kira and athrun) and is constantly the brunt of fans becasue he listens to rey and durrandel who happen to be THE ONLY voice of reason speaking to him. Does anyone say anything else to him. (ill get to athrun in a minute) NO. so how else did you expect him to act. I personally felt that final plus was a disgrace because it literally was a message from fukuda that said. DOnt mess with kira or lacus or you get woned kind of vibe. shinn doesnt even get to be his own character anymore.

Let me ask you thins. where wwere the conversations between shinn and cagali. you would think he would have a few things to say to her about some of the stuff she did in destiny wouldnt you say!? I saw none of that in final plus.

What about shinn an NEO. YOu know the guy who lied to his face about keeping stellar safe, who pretty much tried to destroy minerva, and pretty much succeded in the last episodes when he switched to the archangel side. where was he?

why would he even shake hands with kira. i mean this guy he doesnt know, interfered in battles, killed someone he tried to protect and is basically resposble fopr most of shinns troubles. I would prefer if in te special edition that fukuda Have shinn just walk away. If your not gonna develop a character then let him stay that way.


As for athrun. heck he didnt deserve any of the victories in the later half of the series. you heard me. he just showed that if your not gonna listen to half baked logic than might equals right. Athrun is a veteran. he has experience he had all the tools he needed to help shinn early on yet for some reason all he did was act like he was on a separt=ate world on the minerva and mope around. he never aked shinn. Hey did you know that my mom died as well and my dad was shot in front of me?. DO you know the connection that could have opened. simple words and yet athrun cant say squat. He blew his chance and he expected shinn to listen to him when he pretty much wasperforming an act of treachery. hell he didnt ask shinn why the hell he was sudenly after freedom. he didnt even try he gave up wayyy to easily. and on that gouf incident. who doyou think shinn would trust more. his best friend or someone who cant form a cohesive argument and who is right now doing something wrong. cmon. The point is if eel shinn should get a better ending in which he walks away and in the third series or mvie becames a merc and then given him the character development he deserves. And it might happen if the special edition is what fukuda intended. remember special editions are canon (prof look at how mwu survived)
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:54   Link #97
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
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Join Date: Dec 2005
One reason Shinn absolutely sucks dick in his character development in the manner that he was hinted to go through, not the one we got where he was technically Anakin Skywalker Mk.II, only disregarding the fact that he WASN'T CHARACTERISTICALLY DEVELOPED TO BE ONE imo is easily due to Athrun. I've hated Athrun since SEED, and GSD just helps to reinforce that hate. Putting aside his half-assed convictions in doing stuff, his horrible social tendecies just slices the cake on what he should've shown Shinn on, but rather we got an emo Athrun. Simply put, everything that happened in the episode where Shinn got smacked, Shinn talked with Athrun, etc etc etc.

The damn flaw in Shinn existed since early on. And it stayed the same. Had they really wanted Shinn to stay the sob he is at Phase 49, they should've made Shinn more flawed, but no, what we got instead was a Shinn trapped in a time chamber, static and immobile. There's nothing wrong with a flawed character staying as one, but it is one when you develop him in a manner that he'll lose the flaw, he keeps it only to stay the same thing he is until the last episode. One of my ultimate beliefs in media is that whatever one does with the plot, CHARACTERS cannot be rushed and must be progressed with a proper pace. Athrun had a proper pace in his character, even if it made him more of a pussy. Shinn doesn't have that priveledge.

I don't share wd's belief that $hinn need$ to $tay the immature dickhead angst-teen, because I can see how his character is developed in the manner where while the execution is weak, his character is still slightly developed that he subconciously knows deep deep down somewhere in his heart that his....manipulated sense of justice isn't really his and isn't what he truly is seeking for. But then, Shinn's character was also developed in the manner that he's an immature teenager that refuses to admit he's in the wrong, because whatever he chooses is the Holy Grail of Choices.

In the end, there is only the choice where pure Shinn fans see Shinn as the RAWR!! I'M AN EASILY MANIPULATED TEENAGER IN DENIAL OF GUILT!!! AND I WILL STAY THE SAME!!!! and where hopeful Shinn fans see Shinn as a sad, failed product of a character that should've walked the road where he slowly, but surely sees the immaturity of his thoughts, the realization of his own sins, etc etc etc.
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:57   Link #98
M_Flores
Count of Monte Dorifto
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Isla De Monte Dorifto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunman380
HEllo all. I have a feeling this thread may erupt into a flame war soon. but before than im gonna post my opinions on it.

To me destiny sucked period. Reasonings have been expressed hundreds of times. when a show give you feelings of frustration and anger you know its not a good show to watch. Unlike seed i stopped watching destiny as it was approaching a close. thats how bad it was. seed had me pumped to the end.

As for shinn. His character was betrayed. He was a guy who was lied to (by neo). involved in a dispute between people he barely knew (kira and athrun) and is constantly the brunt of fans becasue he listens to rey and durrandel who happen to be THE ONLY voice of reason speaking to him. Does anyone say anything else to him. (ill get to athrun in a minute) NO. so how else did you expect him to act. I personally felt that final plus was a disgrace because it literally was a message from fukuda that said. DOnt mess with kira or lacus or you get woned kind of vibe. shinn doesnt even get to be his own character anymore.

Let me ask you thins. where wwere the conversations between shinn and cagali. you would think he would have a few things to say to her about some of the stuff she did in destiny wouldnt you say!? I saw none of that in final plus.

What about shinn an NEO. YOu know the guy who lied to his face about keeping stellar safe, who pretty much tried to destroy minerva, and pretty much succeded in the last episodes when he switched to the archangel side. where was he?

why would he even shake hands with kira. i mean this guy he doesnt know, interfered in battles, killed someone he tried to protect and is basically resposble fopr most of shinns troubles. I would prefer if in te special edition that fukuda Have shinn just walk away. If your not gonna develop a character then let him stay that way.


As for athrun. heck he didnt deserve any of the victories in the later half of the series. you heard me. he just showed that if your not gonna listen to half baked logic than might equals right. Athrun is a veteran. he has experience he had all the tools he needed to help shinn early on yet for some reason all he did was act like he was on a separt=ate world on the minerva and mope around. he never aked shinn. Hey did you know that my mom died as well and my dad was shot in front of me?. DO you know the connection that could have opened. simple words and yet athrun cant say squat. He blew his chance and he expected shinn to listen to him when he pretty much wasperforming an act of treachery. hell he didnt ask shinn why the hell he was sudenly after freedom. he didnt even try he gave up wayyy to easily. and on that gouf incident. who doyou think shinn would trust more. his best friend or someone who cant form a cohesive argument and who is right now doing something wrong. cmon. The point is if eel shinn should get a better ending in which he walks away and in the third series or mvie becames a merc and then given him the character development he deserves. And it might happen if the special edition is what fukuda intended. remember special editions are canon (prof look at how mwu survived)
However, stupid fan polls dont consider this important and will pretty much ignore you. They want to see Kira and Lacus fanservice, not good Shinn development.
SEED was boring the first half, but tuff the final half. Destiny was the other way around.
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Old 2006-07-24, 22:59   Link #99
cajunman380
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Nightingale i agree with you but the thing is GSD failed to develop shinn properlay and unless fukuda makes bug hange sin SE (i hope he does, doesnt hav emuch reason not to) any major change to shinn would be unrealistic. i mean theres far too much crap that went on with him that would easily take 5 additional episodes to resolve. And most of it is cuz of kir a and athurn. I would lkie it if shinn does change but also still doesnt trust kira or athrun and walks in own path. that is not be someones lapdog anymore. hence a MERC


However, stupid fan polls dont consider this important and will pretty much ignore you. They want to see Kira and Lacus fanservice, not good Shinn development.
SEED was boring the first half, but tuff the final half. Destiny was the other way around.


except that special edition doesnt necessaroy depend on fans. fukuda did it the fans way and it screwed him. whats his incentive to listen to them now? the specials dont even air at a prime time slot. heck he can do pretty much waht ever he wants now. The fans got what they wanted with the series
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Old 2006-07-24, 23:05   Link #100
grandmaster192
Zechs, pilot of Tallgeese
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Flores
However, stupid fan polls dont consider this important and will pretty much ignore you. They want to see Kira and Lacus fanservice, not good Shinn development.
SEED was boring the first half, but tuff the final half. Destiny was the other way around.
Well can you really blame them? Who doesn't wanna see their favorite character kick ass.....If they made another gundam wing show and Zechs showed up I'm be all....OMG!!!!WTF!!!!ZECHS!!!!!MAKE HIMTHE MAIN CHARACTER!!!!!!!!!!! So I understand fans wanting to see their favorite character.
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-Zechs "Lightning Count" Marquis
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