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Old 2008-08-27, 19:40   Link #281
poptart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BleachOD View Post

It's not just the "sound" of a actor that makes it for me. I judge seiyuu/VA on their acting abilities. The VA may have a feel for the character, however it doesn't change the fact he is a lousy actor. He is and Gai-Sensei is terribly done.
It does sound corny even if it's a corny name in Japanese. It still sounds cooler. I've made fun of plenty of names for special moves. My thing is the actors are not as good in English dubs. Most are terrible at because being a VA is the bottom of the barrel. It's not a respected craft where I am from. Unless it's a big production like Disney or Pixar. Japanese people respect VA's . So there are many seiyuu's who are awesome to chose from. Unlike in English dubs. We just get the "Best of" the shittiest actors and actresses.

So again. English dubs sound corny. The actors are horrible. They can't even manage to sound different when playing different roles. their pronunciation is horrible and they make the anime seem campy when it's really some heavy shit.
The excitement, emotion and intensity I feel when I am watching subs, is lost on cutting room floor of dubs.

Please don't assume I just mean "sound". I do not; I am also including acting abilities. JYB..has none imo. He does not do justice to Ichigo's character. He isn't arrogant enough. Example episodes 57-58. JYB was such a hash! He wasn't a cocky braggart at all, more like stupefied amazement.Ichigo's natural arrogance doesn't come across very well. The fangirl in me is horrified by it.

Ichigo's Seiyuu has Ichigo's character down pat. (He reads the manga ) If he was changed I wouldn't like it. If the other seiyuu doesn't capture Ichigo. I will talk about his ass too! If he could act the part without changing Ichigo's character I wouldn't mind it. If JYB could put the bad ass in to Ichigo, I wouldn't have a problem with him.

The way he said "This stand is gonna tumble down..." ...Tumble down...? does that sound bad assed to you?

I just can't get with English dubs. The acting in subs is much better.
thank you for saying what i also think.

i cant get into the english dubs because they just dont sound right. not because i watched them in Japanese first but because the actors choice for voicing the character doesnt sound right. they either overact or underact making the the scene not believable at all

Ichigo doesnt have that... innate thing that makes you believe what he says. when the Japanese seiyuu says he is going to protect his friends i believe it, when he is torn over his mothers death i believe it, when he is completely clueless about things i believe it. the dubber just sounds like he is saying his lines... with conviction yes, but it lacks the power and emotion needed to connect with me.

there is this almost.... distance from the underlayers of what they are saying. i dont really expect them to pronounce things perfectly as they are not native speakers. however i do expect them to relay the feeling behind what they are saying. this is where the english dubs fail 9.5 out of 10.

there is a range of emotions missing from all of their performances that leaves me lacking.

plus the way the bungle the more comedic moments just kills. there is this scene when ichigo and yourichi are in the healing spa thing in the secret training grounds and he says something to the effect of "you built this huge place in secret?" or something (to lazy to look it up D but the inflection on the line was that of subtle comedy as opposed to the overly obvious heavy handed delivery of the dubber


they always sound exactly the same and never really change up inflections or delivery from character to character. its the same tired thing every time...

english has way more different accents and more than enough people in america to actual cast the different ethnicities if the choose to.... yet they dont.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Like I said, voice acting is no more respected there in the big picture than it is here. Only people in the industry and otakus give a damn about seiyuus. The general public see them as nothing more than cartoon voice actors. Only those from classic series have the level of respect you describe, and when I say classic I mean decades old.

Not even Miyazaki respects them, always preferring to use actual Japanese celebrities instead of ones always in the animation industry.
actually yes they are respected in japan. many are featured on talk shows and allowed to release not only character/anime theme songs (which have been known to do quite well on the charts) but also many have their own musical bands that do quite well due large and in part to their fans.

there are also huge conventions that feature the seiyuu and can be three day events full of fans that come to see them. as many of their imported media are dubbed by them as well many seiyuu will rise above even the "anime only" status as their voices are linked with the hollywood movies they enjoy. some are even synonymous with the actual actor themselves as will be the go to voice for a large portion of their work.

anime is a part of their culture and as the animation does encompass more adult topics even adults will know and have a seiyuu that they enjoy or respect. heck even celebrities will know the names and faces of their favorite seiyuu. the same really cant be said with the english VA.

to keep throwing out the one person prefers to use Japanese celebrities is nothing more than that... its his preference. if he has a certain voice in mind and had created it while hearing it sounding a certain way then that what HE prefers... Miyazaki does not represent the seiyuu world at all.

your argument is faulty in another area on the topic of respect in that there is a HUGE market for seiyuu in the drama CD world. this something that is not translated over in english because the quality of the english voice actors pales in comparison to the japanese seiyuu.

can you imagine listening to the english voice actors versions of the drama cs or beat collections.... i'd rather not. the test of quality comes into play when you have nothing to distract you from the sound and delivery.
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Old 2008-08-27, 19:49   Link #282
Royal_Devil
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Originally Posted by poptart View Post
english has way more different accents and more than enough people in america to actual cast the different ethnicities if the choose to.... yet they dont.
Yet even when they do you still never give them a chance.

Quote:
actually yes they are respected in japan. many are featured on talk
shows and allowed to release not only character/anime theme songs (which have been known to do quite well on the charts) but also many have their own musical bands that do quite well due large and in part to their fans.
Fans that are mostly otaku. Others like them for the music, not their voice acting. Not to mention a number of dub actors have there own bands as well. Funi is the one that dubs openings and endings the most, often with their actors

Quote:
there are also huge conventions that feature the seiyuu and can be three day events full of fans that come to see them. as many of their imported media are dubbed by them as well many seiyuu will rise above even the "anime only" status as their voices are linked with the hollywood movies they enjoy. some are even synonymous with the actual actor themselves as will be the go to voice for a large portion of their work.
We have big conventions here too. Your point? Kubo even commented how he'd never been to anything as big as Comic-con, which features English actors in panels from many fields among others.

And now you support dubbing? But only when the ones dubbing are Japanese because they're just so perfect right?

Quote:
your argument is faulty in another area on the topic of respect in that there is a HUGE market for seiyuu in the drama CD world. this something that is not translated over in english because the quality of the english voice actors pales in comparison to the japanese seiyuu.
Again, only with otaku. Otaku in Japan are willing to shell the cash to make these things successful. Otaku and children make up most of anime's audiences. Anyone not in that group (the majority of the country) really doesn't care about these things. Not to mention they're glorified portfolios, which all voice actors have.

Quote:
can you imagine listening to the english voice actors versions of the drama cs or beat collections.... i'd rather not. the test of quality comes into play when you have nothing to distract you from the sound and delivery.
If you don't even give anyone not speaking Japanese a chance why bother even listening? You've already closed yourself off to other possibilities. If you go in with the mentality "Japanese are always better," then guess what the result will always be. It doesn't matter how much English actors improve if they've already been shut out.
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Old 2008-08-27, 19:56   Link #283
BleachOD
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Listen what about the rep. You just dismissed it.and now you are posting like you are mad. If I did do it because I did get somebody by accident. I am just assuming it was you. I would not do it on purpose. Please believe me...I hate to make another enemy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
You must know some funny black people because he doesn't sound a thing like any of the ones I've heard speaking.
No. but I know a lot of em. Just about all my relatives are black (there are other races but primarily we are black)

In the sub. Tousen is believable.

Some people say there is no such thing as sounding black...but that's a lie. We do sound different whether we articulate or not. Just how many have you heard? I will wager you haven't heard more than I have. Unless you are black I think I am a better judge than you.
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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post

Their English actors are awesome too and have the added bonus of accents and such that fit their characters, ie Dutch is voiced by an actual black man and is actually acted pretty well.
Didn't watch the dub so I have to take your word for it. Just because he's voiced by a black guy doesn't mean his acting is great.
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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
As Desert Punk actually has a superior dub script. The Japanese version is toned down in comparison to the English script. Yes, Funi took liberties in the translation but it works here because DP is a show that needs bite to it's dialog. It needs someone calling a guy's mother a dirty whore instead of saying she has an outty. Then again, I find comedies generally do better in English since they sound absurd anyway.

Now if you ever get to Hellsing keep in mind the Japanese staff has HEAVY involvement in the dubbing of it. The director and members of the cast have meat with Hirano on many occasions to discuss the localization.
I think the comedies do better in Japan. Sometimes it doesn't translate well and the humor is lost because of the cultural differences. Some behaviors come of as unnatural. Certain gestures and gesticulations are not done in ours. So it appears over exaggerated and that makes it appear silly.
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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
And you still haven't told me what makes Bebop the big exception.
Um...You said it was the great exception. I just said it was a good dub. The acting was fairly well. I really liked Steve Blum's spike and Ed. The episode with the mushrooms was funny as hell. I started out as a dubbie. So it was one I am fine with it. I didn't desire to see the sub like I did with other series.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Like I said, voice acting is no more respected there in the big picture than it is here. Only people in the industry and otakus give a damn about seiyuus. The general public see them as nothing more than cartoon voice actors. Only those from classic series have the level of respect you describe, and when I say classic I mean decades old.

Not even Miyazaki respects them, always preferring to use actual Japanese celebrities instead of ones always in the animation industry.
Um thats what I said. Why did you agree only to say this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
And quite bringing up Disney and Pixar please. The actors there even have the advantage of have traits of the character modeled after them on top of the animation being done after they're done recording.
You totally agreed with me above and then did a turn around here.

Number one: " quite bringing up Disney and Pixar please" NO! I will not. That is the only time you get quality acting. You don't have to agree but you sound like post Hitler. You can't tell me which points to use...

Otherwise you get has-beens i.e Erick Estrada, Mark Hamil, Cree Summer...
You don't get quality actors and to most of them it's just a job so they don't put their all in to it. Or they do and they just can't act and that's why they can only do VA. Japan does not have this attitude




Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post

Would you believe Yuzu and Rukia share the same voice actress?
Would you believe I ALREADY KNEW THAT?! ( & All that other stuff I didn't quote. If I like an actor I will not only search anything I can find. I will dl everything that person has done. )



I am a Bleachotaku how could you think I didn't know that? She said this in her very first interview. It was for a Bleach site months before the release. It's where I saw Ishida's VA and his disdain for voice acting...
You will remember I said I liked the voice actress who does Rukia. I was not talking about Rukia's VA. There are some exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Hell, in Blood+ Saya and Diva had different seiyuus while the same dub actress was used for both and pulled off two distinct voices. Steve Blum: he's Spike, he's Guilmon, he Leeron, he's Orochimaru, he's Zabuza. Of course, seiyuu rarely have to deal with playing multiple roles in one show. But if you don't recognize the voice coming from one character then you've most likely not realized that character's sharing a VA with another.
Guess what? I didn't like the actress who did Saya and Diva. That was one of the worse dubs ever!

What makes you think I haven't realized, or known this? How many times do I have to tell you I judge them based on their acting ability. Not many you named sound different when playing the other roles.
Actually a lot of seiyuu's voice multiple roles in one show. However that's not how I meant it. You went on a tangent for nothing. I meant period. I meant they sound the same way and act the same way no matter what role. Diva and Riku have the same seiyuu in the sub. She was a great actress. I recognized her instantly as Sango's brother in Inuyasha. I have an ear for voices, most the time I can call them right away. Others take a minute. That's for both Japanese and English. Please don't assume I didn't take that into account when making my decision. Don't assume I didn't recognize the actors...I did. I still think the acting is better in subs!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
And unless you have a problem with Engrish, please avoid the pronunciation thing when addressing me (Engrish is was killed any hope of me liking BL in Japanese. Besides, they say the F word more in English)


.
Who cares about profanity? their pronunciation is horrible. I am not the only one who says this. How can you tell me what reasons I am allowed to have?

I don't have a problem with Engrish. I don't see what that has to do with anything. I don't see what addressing you have to do with Black Lagoon...

Renji's pronunciation of Hihou Zabimaru is terrible. He doesn't say it right. A lot of them do not. They could take the time and try to say it correctly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
No it's not. Of course, by now I'm wondering if your bias will make you prefer non-Japanese cartoons when they're in Japanese for some strange reason.
Never seen it any so I can't say. Probably not... If I liked it in English unless it turns out like Inuyasha and is better and funnier in subs. Then I might...I can't really say.

When Inuyasha decides he's going to give his life to Kikyo. From the moment when Kagome says "There is no place for me between me and them" and it switches to Inu and he says "We can't see each other any more" The pain in his voice, the way he delivers his line as he says this. I could feel how much it hurt him. I cry every time I see that scene. I don't feel that emotion from the dubbed episode. I hardly ever feel any emotion except disgust when I watch dubs.
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Old 2008-08-27, 20:20   Link #284
Royal_Devil
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Originally Posted by BleachOD View Post
Listen what about the rep. You just dismissed it.and now you are posting like you are mad. If I did do it because I did get somebody by
accident. I am just assuming it was you. I would not do it on purpose. Please believe me...I hate to make another enemy.
If I don't reply then that means it doesn't matter anymore. I've had a whole day to get over it. It clearly wasn't you so why does it have to come up?

Quote:
Some people say there is no such thing as sounding black...but that's a lie. We do sound different whether we articulate or not. Just how many have you heard? I will wager you haven't heard more than I have. Unless you are black I think I am a better judge than you.
Do you really want this to turn into a debate about how many black people we've met or at least have heard? You don't have to be black to get to know what a number of black people of multiple nationalities and background sound like in conversation. For example, the black people in Britain I had many conversations with sounded nothing like American ones. Still, Tousen's seiyuu, sounds like nothing I've heard from any of them.

Japan's lazy when it comes to foreign accents. They know they can't get it right with just Japanese people so they just go with someone who acts well. I accepted that truth a long time ago.

Quote:
Didn't watch the dub so I have to take your word for it. Just because he's voiced by a black guy doesn't mean his acting is great.
See for yourself then. Though I say don't bother if you go in with the mentality that it will always suck

Quote:
I think the comedies do better in Japan. Sometimes it doesn't translate well and the humor is lost because of the cultural differences. Some behaviors come of as unnatural. Certain gestures and gesticulations are not done in ours. So it appears over exaggerated and that makes it appear silly.
But in DP's case the English jokes fit the show better and make it overall more entertaining. I don't always think the Japanese always do it better. Sometimes doing your own thing in something is a good thing. Worked for Ghost Stories, which was a boring show I wouldn't give a second glance after one episode. The gag dub by ADV at least made me watch the whole thing through. DP's dub does change some jokes but I would hardly call it out of place.

To put it simply, they may not translate the jokes accurately but it's still funnier unless you think everything has to be exactly like the Japanese version and that the Japanese version is always perfect.

Quote:
Um...You said it was the great exception. I just said it was a good dub. The acting was fairly well. I really liked Steve Blum's spike and Ed. The episode with the mushrooms was funny as hell. I started out as a dubbie. So it was one I am fine with it. I didn't desire to see the sub like I did with other series.
So you seriously believe none of the actors in Bebop have given better performances in anything?

Quote:
Um thats what I said. Why did you agree only to say this...
The way you said it made it sound like you were saying they're treated a lot better than voice actors are here, which I disagree with.

Quote:
Number one: " quite bringing up Disney and Pixar please" NO! I will not. That is the only time you get quality acting. You don't have to agree but you sound like post Hitler. You can't tell me which points to use...
It was a request, not an order because Disney should have no relevance in this discussion. Because dubbing something in any language and voicing a Disney movie are like day in night when you compare the processes. You can't compare a role tailor made to fit the voice actor to one that requires the voice actor to do all the work with none of the help the Disney process provides.

Dub actors have a lot more going against them, which is why I honestly respect a good performance from them than one from Disney.

Quote:
Otherwise you get has-beens i.e Erick Estrada, Mark Hamil, Cree Summer...
You don't get quality actors and to most of them it's just a job so they don't put their all in to it. Or they do and they just can't act and that's why they can only do VA. Japan does not have this attitude
How the hell are those three has-beens. They're voices and their performances never get old. And since you do so much research you'd know how much of a nerd Hamil is when it comes to comics and voicing them. Look, if you truly believe this then I just give up. If no English actors not in a Disney can be as good as Japanese actors in anything then this discussion is pointless. I'll admit, I don't like when someone puts down an entire culture's works like that.

I've always believed everything has its good and its bad and that no one way is better than the other. I take it you don't share the sentiment?

Quote:
Who cares about profanity? their pronunciation is horrible. I am not the only one who says this. How can you tell me what reasons I am allowed to have?
Because BL is a show that needs profanity maybe? Because the BL universe requires it in spades?

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I don't have a problem with Engrish. I don't see what that has to do with anything. I don't see what you have to do with Black Lagoon...
This entire thread you've practically jumped at the opportunity to criticize English actors everytime they've pronounced a Japanese word wrong yet don't seem to do the same when Japanese do the same to English.

You've also said the mispronouncing Japanese words have ruined dubs for you. I was simply countering with an example of the opposite happening to me.

Same goes for overacting. that's the biggest problem seiyuus have yet you only call dub actors on it.

Quote:
Never seen it any so I can't say. Probably not... If I liked it in English unless it turns out like Inuyasha and is better and funnier in subs. Then I might...I can't really say.
I'm talking about shows originally done in English. Like a Japanese dub of a Disney movie. Comparing that to Inuyasha doesn't make any sense

I'll ask again: Are there any Japanese performances you actually don't like? Any in Bleach? Any in other anime? Otherwise, I'm seeing nothing but blind bias from you. Sorry
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Old 2008-08-27, 22:26   Link #285
Mr. DJ
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hey now OD...Mark Hamill was an awesome Joker VA
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Old 2008-08-27, 22:29   Link #286
Royal_Devil
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz View Post
hey now OD...Mark Hamill was an awesome Joker VA
Exactly. He was also awesome in Castle in the Sky. And I always look forward to his next performance, which I believe will be in the next Afro Samurai.
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Old 2008-08-27, 22:42   Link #287
poptart
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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Yet even when they do you still never give them a chance.
did i ever say that or did you editorialize my comment to fit your needs.

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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Fans that are mostly otaku. Others like them for the music, not their voice acting.
and your facts that the hundreds and sometime thousands of people are all Otakus comes from???

and even if they are not what is the need to put a qualifier on their respect by placing a "by otakus" on it. does it make them any less respected.

fans are fans. you can spin it any way you want, but these are people that highly respect the level and quality of work these people do.

is the only way you will accept that they are respected is that if a non-otaku acknowledges them.... i remember watching a tv show with Hyde on it and he mentions being moved by seeing the seiyuu that voiced Doraemon on the same plane as him. that he was excited cause he really likes her.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
We have big conventions here too. Your point? Kubo even commented how he'd never been to anything as big as Comic-con, which features English actors in panels from many fields.
there are conventions dedicated to voice actors where hundreds or thousands of people show up and treat them like rock stars... never knew that...

whats it callled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
And now you support dubbing? But only when the ones dubbing are Japanese because they're just so perfect right?
again please quote me saying that they are perfect.... i make a pretty good habit of saying what i mean and meaning what i say. no need to add on to get my meaning.

i said that seiyuu, as opposed to their english VA counterparts, hold a different position and level of respect due to the fact that their voices carry over to so many different forms of media. its not just cartoons that they become known for...

which goes against your "otaku only" standpoint. for those that may not know or relate them to an anime character they would also be known for their non anime dubbing roles...

i dont think i can make it clearer than that. no need to add anything to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Again, only with otaku. Otaku in Japan are willing to shell the cash to make these things successful. Otaku and children make up most of anime's audiences. Anyone not in that group (the majority of the country) really doesn't care about these things.
again... fans are fans... you feeling the need to put a qualifier on it doesnt discount it. and otaku and children do not make up the most of anime's audiences as that would not be enough to sustain an ever flourishing business. their is a wide range of anime that all sorts of people watch so i think thats a bit of conjecture on your part.

can you tell me where you get the idea that other than otaku and children, nobody really cares about anime? i'd love to read up on it

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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
If you don't even give anyone not speaking Japanese a chance why bother even listening? You've already closed yourself off to other possibilities. If you go in with the mentality "Japanese are always better," then guess what the result will always be. It doesn't matter how much English actors improve if they've already been shut out.
*sigh* again... please quote me saying i wouldnt give them a chance... i dont like it when people put words in my mouth or twist my words to fit their argument.

if you put out a low quality product i'm not gonna like it. if you put some effort into it and really try and make it believable then it will be enjoyable.

so far i have yet to come across a dub i have liked more than the original. so far they have all been campy, childish, poorly acted, or poorly cast.

the only dub i've ever halfway thought was decent was the samurai champloo ones and even then it only really thought that jin character was done well. fuu was done in a way that made her annoying (which she was in the original but she was annoying because of her age and tendency to whine) because she sounded childish to me. and mugen.... not rough and wild enough by half.

english VA might get more respect in the english anime world if they didnt do such a poor job overall of translating the feel of the characters over to english, imo.
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Old 2008-08-27, 23:45   Link #288
Royal_Devil
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Poptart, most of what I'm saying is actually a repeat from someone else. In fact, now that I look back I've got a few parts wrong so I apologize for those.

And I can't help but wonder if you also have any criticisms for these seiyuu since you claim to not view them as perfect. Why not besides "nothings perfect?" It just doesn't sit well with me when someone never mentions any bad points but doesn't claim perfection.

However....

Quote:
there are conventions dedicated to voice actors where hundreds or thousands of people show up and treat them like rock stars... never knew that...

whats it callled?
And there are hundreds, sometimes thousands, of people at anime conventions and many of them crowd all over the VA panels. Your point?

Quote:
is the only way you will accept that they are respected is that if a non-otaku acknowledges them.... i remember watching a tv show with Hyde on it and he mentions being moved by seeing the seiyuu that voiced Doraemon on the same plane as him. that he was excited cause he really likes her.
Look back at my posts. I once said that seiyuus for the classics are the exception. They make the most money and are the most respected in the industry. Doraemon's seiyuus are among them.

Quote:
and otaku and children do not make up the most of anime's audiences as that would not be enough to sustain an ever flourishing business. their is a wide range of anime that all sorts of people watch so i think thats a bit of conjecture on your part.
That's surprisingly the case, actually.

A number of kj1980's posts here indicate otherwise. While some of what you say is true there's also some glaring faults. Throughout the thread he repeatidly brings up how those otakus shelling out for all their favorite shows are a vital contributer and much of the industry could not function without them.

Yes, anime is very diverse and there will always be exceptions. But they are few. As kj1980 says:

Spoiler for quote:


Quote:
if you put out a low quality product i'm not gonna like it. if you put some effort into it and really try and make it believable then it will be enjoyable.
The thing is, they are trying. Like I said, dubbing's the most difficult form of voice acting there is. Doesn't help that the industry is struggling in a number of places these days. Really, most of your complaints can be summed up as "I think Japanese sounds better than English." Since once again, most of them are just the nature of the languages. English is naturally more monotone and less expressive than Japanese. You just seem to have made yourself impossible to please.

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so far i have yet to come across a dub i have liked more than the original. so far they have all been campy, childish, poorly acted, or poorly cast.
May I inquire if some of the ones listed in this thread are among them (FMP, Black Lagoon, Desert Punk, Heat Guy J, Princess Tutu, Speed Grapher, Vampire Hunter D, Big O, Golden Boy)? (note: one of those is a trick question)

Quote:
english VA might get more respect in the english anime world if they didnt do such a poor job overall of translating the feel of the characters over to english, imo.
If the hundreds of screams at every convention I've been to were any indications., they get plenty of respect. But they also get plenty of disrespect. But then again, so does everyone in the entertainment industry.
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Old 2008-08-28, 00:11   Link #289
Mitsuomi1971
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lmao...what were we talking about again?

oh yeah lol...I think the english voice of Ichigo is pretty good myself...I watched a behind the scenes thing with him and he truly shows passion for the role...I feel this way...a persons acting is only as good as his/her passion for the part
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Old 2008-08-28, 01:08   Link #290
poptart
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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Poptart, most of what I'm saying is actually a repeat from someone else. In fact, now that I look back I've got a few parts wrong so I apologize for those.

And I can't help but wonder if you also have any criticisms for these seiyuu since you claim to not view them as perfect. Why not besides "nothings perfect?" It just doesn't sit well with me when someone never mentions any bad points but doesn't claim perfection.
not mentioning the flaws does not imply perfection. what it does however mean is that i dont mind the flaws that are there. engrish doesnt bother me the same way that poorly pronounced japanese names dont particularly bother me. as its not either of their native languages i dont expect it to be good.

most of the problems i have related to seiyuu deals with the them casting the wrong voice in my opinion. but over time i usually get over it as it. like i really wished that Minagawa Junko could have voiced Allen Walker, but as time went on i grew to like Kobayashi Sanae or even growing to love Kugimiya Rie as Miharu.

see the difference. they both put out a good performance in my opinion so i was able to still enjoy it overall.


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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
And there are hundreds, sometimes thousands, of people at anime conventions and many of them crowd all over the VA panels. Your point?
i didnt mean anime events... i meant a seiyuu (VA) event.


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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Look back at my posts. I once said that seiyuus for the classics are the exception. They make the most money and are the most respected in the industry. Doraemon's seiyuus are among them.

again the qualifier. i still dont get why there are all these qualifiers to the aspect of respect. i cant remember exactly who it was but an actor... maybe it was an idol... gaaahhh she had long hair and was quite funny... made a reference to hirano aya as liking her style and then mimicked her from Haruhi... its gonna drive me crazy until i remember D:



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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
That's surprisingly the case, actually.

A number of kj1980's posts here indicate otherwise. While some of what you say is true there's also some glaring faults. Throughout the thread he repeatidly brings up how those otakus shelling out for all their favorite shows are a vital contributer and much of the industry could not function without them.

Yes, anime is very diverse and there will always be exceptions. But they are few. As kj1980 says:
who is kj1980?



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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
The thing is, they are trying. Like I said, dubbing's the most difficult form of voice acting there is. Doesn't help that the industry is struggling in a number of places these days. Really, most of your complaints can be summed up as "I think Japanese sounds better than English." Since once again, most of them are just the nature of the languages. English is naturally more monotone and less expressive than Japanese. You just seem to have made yourself impossible to please.
english in no way monotone. every language has its own flavor that can be brought to light by good acting and skill. if they had a better understanding of the characters the bleach dubs probably wouldnt blow as hard as they do for me.

there are a number of ways to give the same levels of inflections rukia did when switching between her rough talking to ichigo and renji speak, extremely respectful speech when speaking to her brother and superiors, her hilarious attempts at speaking "modern day girly", etc.

renji sounded like jerk the first time he showed up... which actually fit with his character... however he never really changed up after you got to see he is a bit of a softy, espc for rukia.

yes, ishida sounds bored most of the time, but his VA never really had that controlling anal retentive goofball feel that ishida. so there was never really a big change up between his normal moments and his "badass" moments enough to make a difference.... he just always sounds like some aloof loner.

chad sounds mentally slow most times.... instead of the dude that is to lazy to actually vocalize his thoughts.

ichigo is just.... no

gin sounds like some proper snake like bastard... which would sort of fit his character but gin is supposed to be rough around the edges and nonchalant with a bit of skeaz to freak you out. thats part of the reason most would either not take him seriously or be put off by him.

byakuya makes my ears cry....

all of this stems from them not really understanding how their characters are and the culture surround their creation enough to be able to translate it to an english equivalent.

it doesnt have to be a direct translation where they are just mocking the seiyuu, but them taking in the information and really understanding the subtleties of the characters and how they relate to each other. then processing that and finding the english version of these things.

how do we speak when talking to somebody we deeply respect and yet are afraid of? how do we speak when we feel as if we are too far away from somebody in status?

pulling in real life material of the girl in class that was in love with the boy that didnt even know she exsisted? how does she act? what were the inflections in her voice that clued you in? bringing things like that to characters is whats missing in their performance to me. its all one note or extremes.


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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
May I inquire if some of the ones listed in this thread are among them (FMP, Black Lagoon, Desert Punk, Heat Guy J, Princess Tutu, Speed Grapher, Vampire Hunter D, Big O, Golden Boy)? (note: one of those is a trick question)
i didnt like any of those titles so no i've never listened nor watched them other than Black Lagoon and i love Namikawa Daisuke, and Black Lagoon, enough to not wish to listen to the english even if i could... which i havent... didnt even know it came in english as i never even checked for it *shrugs*


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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
If the hundreds of screams at every convention I've been to were any indications., they get plenty of respect. But they also get plenty of disrespect. But then again, so does everyone in the entertainment industry.
you cant say that the only people that respect seiyuu are otakus and not apply that same logic to VA. by your qualifier until some non "otaku" comes in and says a VA not from Disney or a classic cartoon/anime is great or respectable then non of that screaming counts...

and to further that point i didnt say they didnt get any respect.... i said they'd get more respect. meaning if you put up a quality product then middle ground people wouldnt have anything to complain about and all thats left are just "haters" and "purists".

Last edited by poptart; 2008-08-28 at 08:12.
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Old 2008-08-28, 02:02   Link #291
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Old 2008-08-28, 02:31   Link #292
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If I don't reply then that means it doesn't matter anymore. I've had a whole day to get over it. It clearly wasn't you so why does it have to come up?
I told you I got someone by accident. I thought it might have been you


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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Do you really want this to turn into a debate about how many black people we've met or at least have heard? You don't have to be black to get to know what a number of black people of multiple nationalities and background sound like in conversation. For example, the black people in Britain I had many conversations with sounded nothing like American ones. Still, Tousen's seiyuu, sounds like nothing I've heard from any of them.
Yo son you bugging! You were the one who brought "Black sounds" it into the debate. You mentioned it regarding Dutch's dubbing and I agreed. The actor is passable as black man. Obviously you haven't heard enough.

This is one I am just going to let go. since I am going to believe I am a better judge than you...





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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
See for yourself then. Though I say don't bother if you go in with the mentality that it will always suck
I don't go in with any mentality. It just so happens that most I see do suck. So I prefer subs. If I find one and the acting is tolerable. I will watch it if I have no choice.



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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post

To put it simply, they may not translate the jokes accurately but it's still funnier unless you think everything has to be exactly like the Japanese version and that the Japanese version is always perfect.
The original is usually the best. I like funny to be funny. Hell yeah I expect it to be exactly like the Japanese version;It's a dub. if things are added that weren't there before... then you call it a REMAKE! That kills me when people say that...


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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
The way you said it made it sound like you were saying they're treated a lot better than voice actors are here, which I disagree with.
They are. What country are you from? In America if you go from film to voice. It means you "Fell off" slang for you are nothing...

I want to know why you are under the impression that VA is so widely respected and it's not.



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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
It was a request, not an order because Disney should have no relevance in this discussion. Because dubbing something in any language and voicing a Disney movie are like day in night when you compare the processes. You can't compare a role tailor made to fit the voice actor to one that requires the voice actor to do all the work with none of the help the Disney process provides.
Tailor made or not. If the actor is a shitty actor then it's doesn't mean shit. Some actors are better at it then others. I stand by my statement. It's the only time you get quality acting

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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Dub actors have a lot more going against them,
If you know that, then why do you keep contradicting yourself and saying otherwise?


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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post

How the hell are those three has-beens. They're voices and their performances never get old. And since you do so much research you'd know how much of a nerd Hamil is when it comes to comics and voicing them. Look, if you truly believe this then I just give up. If no English actors not in a Disney can be as good as Japanese actors in anything then this discussion is pointless. I'll admit, I don't like when someone puts down an entire culture's works like that.
Um that's what I mean. They continue to do VA instead of film. Erick Estrada was popular star in his day. A sex symbol. He's now reduced to voices.

Mark Hamil was "Luke Skywalker" now he's a nobody that voices cartoons
That's the lowest you get in acting unless it's a BIG PRODUCTION LIKE DISNEY OR PIXAR!

They are voice actors because they can't be anything else.

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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post

I've always believed everything has its good and its bad and that no one way is better than the other. I take it you don't share the sentiment?
No; I don't.
I like only the best


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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post

Because BL is a show that needs profanity maybe? Because the BL universe requires it in spades?
I disagree...it needs gunfire.



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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
This entire thread you've practically jumped at the opportunity to criticize English actors everytime they've pronounced a Japanese word wrong yet don't seem to do the same when Japanese do the same to English.
Where was I when you heard me not criticize that Japanese person who couldn't speak English? It hasn't happened yet so how are you going to tell me I wouldn't do the same?

That still doesn't negate the fact that the mispronunciations annoy me. It's not the same thing. With the Japanese L sounds like R and the reverse. They can't help but say Engrish. With some practice they can. same thing goes for them...
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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
You've also said the mispronouncing Japanese words have ruined dubs for you. I was simply countering with an example of the opposite happening to me.
No I said it annoys me. The shitty acting ruins it...

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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Same goes for overacting. that's the biggest problem seiyuus have yet you only call dub actors on it.
I said some English VA's overact and that ruins it for me. The thread is about English VA's not seiyuus.

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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
I'm talking about shows originally done in English. Like a Japanese dub of a Disney movie. Comparing that to Inuyasha doesn't make any sense
No shit.

I said probably not. Unless it's like what happened with Inuyasha. I saw it in English FIRST and then saw it Japanese and preferred it. If I saw a show that was originally in English and if it was funnier and the acting was better than I might. it hasn't happened so I really can't say. What part of that couldn't you understand the first time?

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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
I'll ask again: Are there any Japanese performances you actually don't like? Any in Bleach? Any in other anime? Otherwise, I'm seeing nothing but blind bias from you. Sorry
"

You don't have to see anything. I said I am SUPER SUB BIASED. It's not like that's a secret. I am also seeing blind bias from you and blatant denial...

You don't even realize those comic-cons are viewed as nerd stuff (That's why you never heard of em pop. ) I get made fun of by "The cool" people every time I go to one
Yeah there are few I do not like. Not many because like I said before. The Japanese get better actors for their animation and they don't have to pick from the best of the "Has-beens" like you do with dubs.

You like dubs and that's fine. But do not try and make it this glamorous profession outside of Japan. It is not. If Jennifer Aniston starting doing voice only. No one would see it as a step up. No she would be pitied and looked down upon.

Most English are failures or hasbeens. you might not like it but it's a fact.

Most of them can't act at all...

You are right there is no point in this conversation if you are gonna blanket everyone's criticisms and put your own spin on it.

Last edited by BleachOD; 2008-08-28 at 02:59.
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Old 2008-08-28, 09:02   Link #293
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English kids don't watch anime, they watch cartoons. English adolescents and adults don't watch anime because they think they are cartoons. Until that misconseption changes we won't be seeing quality English dubs, though on rare ocassion it can be done. Death Note for example.

Also Japanese voice actors are stars in Japan. Whereas English voice actors are percieved differently, unless they're starring in Disney or Pixar films. There are English voice actors just as capable or more capable than their Japanese counterparts, they just haven't found their way to anime.
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Old 2008-08-28, 09:10   Link #294
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agree to disagree

this is my personal opinion

I believe some of the better dubbing was in the old days before anime became such a huge hit in the states. I prefer'd the Gundam Wing dub over the sub, hell, I liked Dragonball Z a lot more when Pioneer had it, even though it was just the movies and I started out on the series by watching it unsubbed/dubbed on the International Channel.
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Old 2008-08-28, 09:18   Link #295
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Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
English kids don't watch anime, they watch cartoons. English adolescents and adults don't watch anime because they think they are cartoons. Until that misconseption changes we won't be seeing quality English dubs, though on rare ocassion it can be done. Death Note for example.

Also Japanese voice actors are stars in Japan. Whereas English voice actors are percieved differently, unless they're starring in Disney or Pixar films. There are English voice actors just as capable or more capable than their Japanese counterparts, they just haven't found their way to anime.
That was beautifully done. I am jealous I didn't think of it first

Devil...this is what Pop, and I are trying to tell you...

That's the attitude I get from my family. All except my boyfriend don't understand why I purchased site 2 months ago instead of just running it.
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Old 2008-08-28, 09:48   Link #296
Mr. DJ
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I think that's the general attitude of most people from the last(?) couple generations? sorry, not sure how generations are defined by years but I'm thinking along the lines of my parents who were born in the 50's.
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Old 2008-08-28, 10:10   Link #297
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DjTrizz if you preferred Pioneers versions of DBZ over Funi...wow...lol...I hated Pioneers versions...but truth be told they screwed up DBZ all the way around until they started releasing uncut
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Old 2008-08-28, 12:08   Link #298
Royal_Devil
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Originally Posted by poptart View Post
not mentioning the flaws does not imply perfection. what it does however mean is that i dont mind the flaws that are there. engrish doesnt bother me the same way that poorly pronounced japanese names dont
particularly bother me. as its not either of their native languages i dont expect it to be good.
So your bias gives seiyuus a handicap? Well, at least we agree on pronouncing things.

Quote:
again the qualifier. i still dont get why there are all these qualifiers to the aspect of respect. i cant remember exactly who it was but an actor... maybe it was an idol... gaaahhh she had long hair and was quite funny... made a reference to hirano aya as liking her style and then mimicked her from Haruhi... its gonna drive me crazy until i remember D:
Remember then. But that's only one example. And just because a celebrity mentions a seiyuu as inspiration it suddenly makes them a better group of people? What about how besides the comics they also examined Hamill's Joker when figuring out how to do him in TDK? Going by what you're saying they wouldn't give an animated performance a second glance.

Quote:
who is kj1980?
A Japanese native who knew a lot about what goes on in the industry. I would recommend you read that thread. Has some nice tidbits about the industry.

Quote:
gin sounds like some proper snake like bastard... which would sort of fit his character but gin is supposed to be rough around the edges and nonchalant with a bit of skeaz to freak you out. thats part of the reason most would either not take him seriously or be put off by him.
Still, a southern accent will not work. There's nothing Gin-ish about it. Maybe you have an accent in mind that would fit.

Quote:
you cant say that the only people that respect seiyuu are otakus and not apply that same logic to VA. by your qualifier until some non "otaku" comes in and says a VA not from Disney or a classic cartoon/anime is great or respectable then non of that screaming counts...
I never said that. Tell me where I said American VAs were more respected. I've just been saying in grand scheme of things seiyuu really aren't either outside of fans of their cartoons/music or people in the industry with a few odd exceptions outside that.

OD

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I told you I got someone by accident. I thought it might have been you
Well, obviously it wasn't so don't worry about it. And even if it was, you obviously regret it so I'd have no reason to be mad anymore.

Quote:
Yo son you bugging! You were the one who brought "Black sounds" it into the debate. You mentioned it regarding Dutch's dubbing and I agreed. The actor is passable as black man. Obviously you haven't heard enough.

This is one I am just going to let go. since I am going to believe I am a better judge than you...
Because you're black your a better judge of what "black" sounds like? Tousen just sounds like a deep Japanese man. Dutch sounds black in the dub because...well he's voice by an actual black man. There's plenty of minority characters in dubs that don't sound right because they're clearly voiced by white guys. I don't know why Tousen not sounding black in Japanese is a bad thing to you. I think it would be nice if that wasn't the case but I would hardly say it bothers since he plays the role well without having to sound black. I just view a black actor in the dub as a bonus just like I view the British actors in Hellsing's dub as a bonus.

Quote:
They are voice actors because they can't be anything else.
These voice actors do plenty of other things since voice acting doesn't pay the bills. Some do jobs as directors for smaller projects. Like you said, for some VAing is a side job. Some of them are also writers with published material out. Some of them even have bands. There's all kinds of jobs they have to do, some in the entertainment industry some outside.

And of course there are actors that voice cartoon characters while still having successful careers.

And here's another thing we seem to disagree on. You seem to believe that just because they aren't Hollywood level, the world views them has-beens with no talent left. You also seem to view not doing Hollywood movies anymore as a bad thing. Being in Hollywood movies is as much about connections as it is about talent, maybe even more so.

Going by what you've said, people would view actors like Keanu Reeves as better than Hamill since Reeves is still doing big movies. All I hear from most though is "how is he still in these movies?" It's because he's got connections not because he's got talent. Everybody loves Hamill's version of the Joker, many consider it better than his Star Wars role. There's plenty of trash actors in Hollywood that nobody likes but somehow manage to keep coming back into film. It's not because they're good, it's because they have people that can keep them in.

So I don't view being a voice actor as necessarily a bad thing. They don't have the prestige Hollywood offers but then again gaining that prestige doesn't necessarily make you a better actor. More often than not it makes you a better businessman who knows how to make the right friends.

You're right, Hamill hasn't been in any big movie recently. But I've seen him in a number of independent movies (which would also be the place of has-beens by your definition). Of course, there's plenty to like about the indie industry over Hollywood so I don't see what's wrong with that.

Maybe you didn't mean that being a voice actor and not in Hollywood means you have no talent in live action anymore and if so then what I just said doesn't apply.

Quote:
I don't go in with any mentality. It just so happens that most I see do suck. So I prefer subs. If I find one and the acting is tolerable. I will watch it if I have no choice.
Saying subs are always better than dubs is basically going in with that mentality. I don't know why you're trying to deny it.

Quote:
The original is usually the best. I like funny to be funny. Hell yeah I expect it to be exactly like the Japanese version;It's a dub. if things are added that weren't there before... then you call it a REMAKE! That kills me when people say that...
I would hardly say changing a few jokes like in DP is a remake. Make no mistake, it's the same show just with more crude jokes, pottier language, and the fact they sound like they're speaking from helmets (voice filters that create that slightly muffled, echo sound you hear when someone has a helmet on, which was a nice touch of detail if you ask me).

Now the Ghost Stories dub is a remake but it's a remake that's more fun to watch than the tired, boring, and unremarkable work it was in Japan. Because there's really only so much you can do when the anime already sucks

Quote:
They are. What country are you from? In America if you go from film to voice. It means you "Fell off" slang for you are nothing...

I want to know why you are under the impression that VA is so widely respected and it's not.
Again, I never said they were widely respected. I just said the respect seiyuu in comparison is not day and night like you claim. More like day and sundown.

Quote:
I disagree...it needs gunfire.
Why does it need gunfire when all the gunfire is already there? I said all the foul language makes it even better since not having it spades doesn't make any sense in a show like that. It adds something I felt was missing with the lack of "fakku" in the Japanese version.

Quote:
Where was I when you heard me not criticize that Japanese person who couldn't speak English? It hasn't happened yet so how are you going to tell me I wouldn't do the same?
Wait, so you actually liked Revy's awful monologues in English?

Quote:
That still doesn't negate the fact that the mispronunciations annoy me. It's not the same thing. With the Japanese L sounds like R and the reverse. They can't help but say Engrish. With some practice they can. same thing goes for them...
Then we agree that both sides have to get it down correctly before they use it. There are some levels of Engrish I do tolerate of course that also means I can also accept some mispronouncing on the other side of things too.

Quote:
You don't have to see anything. I said I am SUPER SUB BIASED. It's not like that's a secret. I am also seeing blind bias from you and blatant denial...
What blind bias? I'll admit there's plenty of bad acting in dubbing. I'm a firm believing that 90% of everything in entertainment is crap. By that extension I also believe 90% of anime is crap and 90% of performances in any language are crap. And nothing I've seen has really changed that opinion.

Just so you know, as far as dubs go I only rank the Bleach dub in the 5% I call, watchable.

Quote:
You don't even realize those comic-cons are viewed as nerd stuff (That's why you never heard of em pop. ) I get made fun of by "The cool" people every time I go to one
There will always be some of that but I disagree. Geek culture is becoming more and more main stream. We've had 6 comic book movies this summer, one of which is now #2 only to Titanic. I've heard plenty of reports in blogs and such of how people are noticing a greater diversity of people coming to these conventions, both comic and anime conventions. These movies are making people curious and now they're discovering what they've been missing.

Quote:
You like dubs and that's fine. But do not try and make it this glamorous profession outside of Japan. It is not. If Jennifer Aniston starting doing voice only. No one would see it as a step up. No she would be pitied and looked down upon.
Where did I ever say it was glamorous? I've just been arguing the life of a seiyuu is hardly much more glamorous.

Kakashi:

Quote:
English kids don't watch anime, they watch cartoons. English adolescents and adults don't watch anime because they think they are cartoons. Until that misconseption changes we won't be seeing quality English dubs, though on rare ocassion it can be done. Death Note for example.
I take it you did not read kj's post in that thread I linked or looked into the spoiler? After his testimony and that of another native Japanese in that thread I would hardly say it sounds all that different from here. I won't put it in spoiler tags this time so you don't miss it


Quote:
Also Japanese voice actors are stars in Japan. Whereas English voice actors are percieved differently, unless they're starring in Disney or Pixar films. There are English voice actors just as capable or more capable than their Japanese counterparts, they just haven't found their way to anime.
I'll say it one more time. I agree voice actors aren't respected by the general public in the states however the same is also mostly true for seiyuus. In both cases, the driving force for their careers are geeks. Their the ones that follow these people's careers and everything they do. It's geek culture that loves them and their rolls most, much like it is here. You've all been making them sound like they're the equivalent of Hollywood actors in Japan, which the aren't in most cases.

To put it simply, all everyone has shown is that there are more geeks in Japan. But that's still a minority in Japan. Just like it's a minority here.

Quote:
DjTrizz if you preferred Pioneers versions of DBZ over Funi...wow...lol...I hated Pioneers versions...but truth be told they screwed up DBZ all the way around until they started releasing uncut
Pioneer never released DBZ uncut. Funimation is the one releasing the uncut version.
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Old 2008-08-28, 12:09   Link #299
Nervous Venus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poptart
english has way more different accents
Actually, Japan has more dialects varying from region to region than the US.
And even if your statement is true, I doubt most accents would be useful in the industry anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Devil
And there are hundreds, sometimes thousands, of people at anime conventions and many of them crowd all over the VA panels. Your point?
Just take a gander at Yui Horie's appearance (on any show, recently on Hey Hey Hey Music Champ since she made the Oricon Chart) and you would be mind-feffed. It's nothing like the treatment US VA's get here.

Not to mention they have the adoration of the Drama CD / manga fans. Most seiyuu's I loved, I learned of through Drama CD's. Their voice acting can survive even without moving pictures to distract me. I can't really say the same for English VA's.

However, this isn't coming from pure bias. There are certain seiyuu's I will never like. I need to draw up a list.
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Old 2008-08-28, 12:12   Link #300
Mr. DJ
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Originally Posted by Mitsuomi1971 View Post
DjTrizz if you preferred Pioneers versions of DBZ over Funi...wow...lol...I hated Pioneers versions...but truth be told they screwed up DBZ all the way around until they started releasing uncut
everyone has their preference, I liked their VAs better, I was diggin Piccolo's voice (also who's Koga from InuYasha) and Vegeta, I really didn't like FUNi's remake of the Saiyan Saga. If I could find 2 corresponding clips, I would do a side by side.

Example...

Vegeta's "It's OVER 9000!!!!" I liked the old version better than the new FUNi version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik - original
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Imuo...eature=related - FUNi remake

though I can respect FUNi for including the original footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTgEATHHe6w&NR=1 - Princess Snake Suicide Game clip

though I'm still disappointed how poorly they handled DBZ (not even to mention GT) for the most part, but then imo do great w/ other projects, like Fullmetal Alchemist

Last edited by Mr. DJ; 2008-08-28 at 12:25.
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