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Old 2006-10-16, 10:39   Link #281
Majek
Sm3rt teh M@d Jester
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Oh? Such details are not so black and white in Innocent Venus. Generally speaking, Toraji is a traitor to his country and betrayed Leni. Steve betrayed his teammates and killed one of them( but he died too). Sana's father was a betrayer too.

If you look at it from a neutral point of view, there are a lot of betrayals and backstabbing in Innocent Venus, but does it always make the betrayer beyond redemption?

I have always been speculating that that one of the main plotpoints in Innocent Venus will be that of Jin's struggle between his dark desires and his friendship with Sana.

Jin can still be redeemed. Forgiven, but not forgotten.

Cheers.
In my eyes he'll always be a betrayer no matter if he's redeemed in Jo's in Sana's eyes or not. I can't help myself, i always have to take a side when wathing a anime, neutrality isn't really an option most of the time. And since all betrayers die i hope Toraji goes out with a BANG. You know what i wish for Jin, no need to repeat myself
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Old 2006-10-16, 18:29   Link #282
Haruka-Kun
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I agree with Kuromitsu that Jin and Drake cooperation is a win-win situation. Jin has the knowledge and Drake have the resources. This is not new in anime. I have seen a lot to time where an 'knowledge-driven-scientist' would join the evil side just because the evil side have the resources for their 'experiments.' Well, Jin is technically not a scientist, but you get my point. Even though Jin may know all the secret to Sana's hidden 'power', but I doubt that he will get the most out of that 'power' if he did not join Drake.

About this betrayal things, I don't think that what Jin did is unforgiveable. He tried to kill Jo with a stab in the stomach, to me that does not seem unforgiveable. Reading the last few post really bring me back Gungrave (point to signature). Harry shot Brandon 4-5 times on the chest, one time on the left eye, which causes Brandon to fall to his death from a tall building. I mean that is much worse than what Jin did to Jo. But I never hated Harry; I even cry ( a lot ) at the end for both Harry and Brandon. From my point of view, Harry/Jin is not evil, they are just ambitious. And ambitious people is what make anime interesting

With just two eps left, if the director did a good job (they can kill off Jin if they want to ), Jin can be redemmable.
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Old 2006-10-17, 01:00   Link #283
Dernhelm
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for me it has always been: pardon a guy and feel sorry for him if he has done the unthinkable and condemnable because of a good reason. all the more so if he expresses remorse and guilt-filled regret. yet, ends always aren't t justified by the means that is why there has to be considerable punishment. don't forgive a guy if he has done a heartless crime with no reason to defend him. (even then he is still human with room for rehabilitation.) as you can see, i don't believe in the absolutist way of things.

my views on things have changed somewhat after a similar scenario occurred in Naruto when Sasuke turned coat and even almost killed Naruto. it was very graphic and a lot more violent than what Jin did to Jo. Sasuke's arm went through Naruto in the chest area where the heart or lungs are. had it not been for a thread of chance (not to mention his regeneration abilities), Naruto would most likely have been dead. but you see you could see in Sasuke's eyes that he genuinely desired his death. i really hated Sasuke's guts then, probably just as how you feel for Jin now Majek. but i've been reminded of Sasuke and his "sob story", and it's a very tragic one. one that's enough to fuel him to do these sorts of nasty things, as i later realized.

i can't really hate a person when they are being possessed by revenge and not being themselves, because it's not truly who they are.
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Old 2006-10-18, 15:53   Link #284
Majek
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so anyone seen ep 11 yet? I was kinda busy with Champions league so i'm still waiting.
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Old 2006-10-18, 16:19   Link #285
Guido
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Spoiler for episode 11:
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Old 2006-10-19, 23:44   Link #286
Haruka-Kun
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Just watch eps 11. Need sub to really understand what they are saying. Eps 11 goes into more details about the connection between the piano and sana, and seem to give us more info on what exactly is venus (Sana). I think the most interesting part of the eps is the picture on the wall of Sana's father. The picture is exactly the ED picture (except with different people, and they don't wear any clothes ). But,
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-10-21, 16:48   Link #287
Niji
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With the fighting prowess Jin obviously has, he could have killed Jo easily. Several times, in other episodes, and certainly when he stabbed him with the knife in ep 10. I just dont take that he "missed" Jo's vital parts of the body.

I hope he reverts, I like him He was really sweet with Sana, many times. And several things from earlier episodes would not make sense, if he was bad to begin with. The Gladiator changing him is a very interesting idea, indeed. But I dont give up yet
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Old 2006-10-21, 17:14   Link #288
Majek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niji View Post
With the fighting prowess Jin obviously has, he could have killed Jo easily. Several times, in other episodes, and certainly when he stabbed him with the knife in ep 10. I just dont take that he "missed" Jo's vital parts of the body.

I hope he reverts, I like him He was really sweet with Sana, many times. And several things from earlier episodes would not make sense, if he was bad to begin with. The Gladiator changing him is a very interesting idea, indeed. But I dont give up yet
He couldn't kill him unless he'd do it by surprise. And he didn't miss he obviously wanted him to die the most painful death.

And what wouldn't make sense?
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Old 2006-10-22, 07:59   Link #289
evil-samurai
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Episode 11 was pretty good =) Alot of talking but still It didn't bore me like alot of shows do. There were a few of the switches from scene to scene that felt to sudden.. :/ I think they could of handel them better.

Sigh... Jin didn't Didn't in this episode Well I still hate Jin but I always thought it would be cool if they somehow.. keep Jin alive but still have him as the bad guy. Hey it could even add room for another season.. mabye.... ^^; Next time Jo has to beat up Jin & then save Sana. I guess he will get some help so it will be great to see other people fighting as well. One one of my biggest worries still is that they are going to try to squeeze alot and mabye a little to much for a last episode. Whatever they do I'm sure the Jin & Jo fight will be Interesting!

Last edited by evil-samurai; 2006-10-22 at 08:11.
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Old 2006-10-23, 22:04   Link #290
Guido
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Venus

The penultimate episode was the most dialogue-driven and bear interesting topics of discussion, though I felt somewhat of an Anti-American theme on the message.

Sana is Venus...
Spoiler:


What I get is that according to Jin Drake's not what he seems regarding his current affiliation to the Freedom States.
Spoiler:


Jin, on the other hand, I could compare him to Takano.
Spoiler:


Toraji and the Satsuma rebels are ought to make their move, but in any case that the writers choose to kill off Toraji at least the best they can do for the man is that he goes off in blazing glory, taking down most of the forces of the Freedom States or better yet- Drake himself.

Some feeling's working on me that chance be that the last episode would be focusing more on a Jin v.s. Jo showdown, but let's hope that Jo stands up to face Drake too.
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Old 2006-10-24, 07:03   Link #291
evil-samurai
......
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido
Toraji and the Satsuma rebels are ought to make their move, but in any case that the writers choose to kill off Toraji at least the best they can do for the man is that he goes off in blazing glory, taking down most of the forces of the Freedom States or better yet- Drake himself.

Some feeling's working on me that chance be that the last episode would be focusing more on a Jin v.s. Jo showdown, but let's hope that Jo stands up to face Drake too.
What would be neat is if Jin gets Drake back! It was Jin's idea to face Jo but.. he was more or less had to come up with something since Drake found him out. Even if it means Jin Dieing but at the same time screwing Drake around I'd love it.

Having Toraji face Drake would be be great, but depending on what they do next episode I think I might be a little dissapointed if Jin doesn't get back at Drake So.. for Jin to get back at Drake and then for Toraji to kick his Drake's ass would be perfect.. but for how Toraji would die (if he does) I wouldn't know.. and! as for how Jin would to Die maybe.. at the hands of Toraji or mabye Jo.
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Old 2006-10-25, 06:14   Link #292
SilverChakra
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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I am a little afraid that too much information and happenings will be squeezed into the last episode. There's still alot of questions that needs answers and alot of things have yet to be explained. Let's just hope there's a good solution for the last episode and I am really looking forward to it! Let's hope everything turns out alright
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Old 2006-10-25, 12:04   Link #293
Guido
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Spoiler for last episode:
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Old 2006-10-25, 18:06   Link #294
Haruka-Kun
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Eps 12 spoilers

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-10-26, 02:01   Link #295
ps3mania
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hmm... this seems a little out of place and maybe even a dumb question, but is there any plan to make a second season? I just found the ending (and the series) to be too short for such a great anime like this one.
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Old 2006-10-27, 15:13   Link #296
Niji
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WOW, they did a great job, wrapping it all up like that.

Still ya, my question too: When will we see the 2nd sequel

Spoiler:


9/10 from me

Last edited by Niji; 2006-10-27 at 15:46. Reason: putting in spoiler knob, sorry for first non-spoilered edition
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Old 2006-10-27, 15:20   Link #297
Niji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majek View Post
And what wouldn't make sense?
Oh, sorry. A bit late to answer.

I have not rewatched all episodes, it just stroke me as odd. Jin was truely caring about Sana, of course that could just have been a ruse, but I didnt believe it just be one. He also was truely grateful to Jo, and did care somewhat about him, too. Also, I think he fought Phantom to protect Sana, he could just hand her over, and ask his price for her, if he would have been all bad by then.

Of course, in anime you can make everyone totally caring and then switch them to the black side, but some minor explanation should still be given. I just think, Jin was "too human" to be the total bad char he was depicted for a while. For example, I think in the knife scene, he did not really really want to kill Jo. Of course, he could kill him only by surprise, but that was there totally in that scene IMO. I think he *could* have killed him there if he really wanted, since Jo was not expecting it at all.

Ah, but it is moot to discuss things, neither side can really know, sometimes Just my impression, totally dont think that is the only possible one
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Old 2006-10-27, 16:17   Link #298
Muddle!
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Well I just finished episode twelve and overall this was a more enjoyable series than I thought it would be. However I just wish they went into more of the little details. The show could've definitly benefitted from more episodes.

Mainly I would like to know more about Jo who was basically just the angsty silent bishie (not that I have a problem with bishounen ). What made him join phantom in the first place anyway? A little more character development for him would have been nice. Also once it got to episode 9 the pace just felt to fast for me... but oh well I still thought this was a decent series in the end.

Last edited by Muddle!; 2006-10-27 at 16:18. Reason: Correcting sentence fragment
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Old 2006-10-27, 20:14   Link #299
Ori
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Somewhere along the line I just totally lost interest in this series. I really don't know why. It's a pretty good show even if Jin turned evil just like I predicted after watching about 4 episodes.

Oh well. I will try to get myself to finish watch this.
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Old 2006-10-27, 23:53   Link #300
evil-samurai
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Good ending to the show =) I wouldn't say its perfect but its alot better then half the endings that I've seen. Jin is still a bastard but they tried to show him more human.. in this episode then in the last couple where he was just power crazy. So though I still hate jin he is one interesting character.

Its a little sad seeing Jo go, though I thought it was really nice how the did the ending scene =) It was a fairly satisfying ending. I wouldn't say Jo is a loner in the end, sure he is going off on his own for now but he still has Sana, Toraji and all the others. I'd still see it as a Happy ending even though Jo has left Sana. Jo will be back to see everyone I dont feel sorry for Jin.. so it doesn't make me sad the way he went. (But in some.. way I can feel for him a little..) Would of liked to of seen a little more of everything! but since the show was only 12 episodes they couldn't help it.

I really wont a season 2 now! Dont think there is much chance for another season but it would be nice.

Last edited by evil-samurai; 2006-10-28 at 10:49. Reason: Editing....
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