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Old 2008-09-15, 13:31   Link #201
Kristen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
You mean into an AVI. Xvid is a codec, AVI is a container (and it doesn't support variable framerate). If you want VFR Xvid, mux it to mkv.
Ah. Well, I did mean XviD because I thought vfr was codec based and not container based.

Would this mean for XviD if I wanted to do a VFR release h.264 in mkv, and a CFR in XviD .avi, I'd have to encode 2 losslesses? Or is there a shortcut?
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Old 2008-09-15, 13:49   Link #202
Daiz
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Uhh, maybe encode one lossless, and then for the XviD, why not just use something like this:
Code:
DirectShowSource("lossless.avi",fps=23.976,convertfps=true)
Actually there's even a simpler solution: Don't do XviD AVI at all! You might even raise the average IQ of Chihiro leechers above 10 that way!
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Old 2008-09-15, 14:03   Link #203
Kristen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
Uhh, maybe encode one lossless, and then for the XviD, why not just use something like this:
Code:
DirectShowSource("lossless.avi",fps=23.976,convertfps=true)
Actually there's even a simpler solution: Don't do XviD AVI at all! You might even raise the average IQ of Chihiro leechers above 10 that way!
So convertfps will work for XviD AVI? I know like last week for Sekirei I accidentally did fps=23.976 without convertfps for the lossless, so it came out to be 31 minutes long, and then when I tried switching FPS back for the h.264, it came out as the same 2/3 speed motion, just cutting off far too early. But if it does work, I'll try it. Tomorrow, that is. This episode will have to be the usual choppy.

But for XviD AVI, we do it because there are people who want to watch it on TV, don't have the PC to handle it nor the money to buy a better PC, or who prefer non-upscales to upscales (Since we do upscaled h.264s most of the time). It's more to give a choice than anything else.
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Old 2008-09-15, 14:36   Link #204
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristen View Post
So convertfps will work for XviD AVI? I know like last week for Sekirei I accidentally did fps=23.976 without convertfps for the lossless, so it came out to be 31 minutes long, and then when I tried switching FPS back for the h.264, it came out as the same 2/3 speed motion, just cutting off far too early
I don't think you "get" VFR
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Old 2008-09-15, 15:42   Link #205
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
Uhh, maybe encode one lossless, and then for the XviD, why not just use something like this:
Code:
DirectShowSource("lossless.avi",fps=23.976,convertfps=true)
That won't work...for obvious reasons.

If you encoded to lossless and did not remove the different framerate sections you have what should now hereforth be referred to as VFRAC AVI. VFR Assumed Constant. Meaning you have all the frames required for a VFR stream, but since you are storing them in AVI they have to be one framerate. So one "easy" way to make a CFR version of this lossless VFRAC video would be to decimate/selectevery/convertfps the sections of frames that are the differing framerates to the overall framerate when encoding to your final format. If there are only a few, it doesn't take much work...if there are lots...well, lol. Also if you plan to use a VFR source and keep the output VFR you should not use DirectShowSource. Use either FFmpegSource (which can also get you the timecodes) or DSS2.

Otherwise yeah you would have to encode one version to lossless CFR (by forcing the source to one framerate from the start) and one to lossless VFRAC (keeping all the frames). But that's just stupid .

Also...why bother making an AVI version at all? You know you can put hardsubbed Xvid video into MKV. That way you keep the VFR and everything else, and don't need to do a billion extra things for some AVI fags. It's not complex to play MKV nowadays...especially if it's hardsubbed.
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Old 2008-09-15, 16:17   Link #206
Kristen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
That won't work...for obvious reasons.

If you encoded to lossless and did not remove the different framerate sections you have what should now hereforth be referred to as VFRAC AVI. VFR Assumed Constant. Meaning you have all the frames required for a VFR stream, but since you are storing them in AVI they have to be one framerate. So one "easy" way to make a CFR version of this lossless VFRAC video would be to decimate/selectevery/convertfps the sections of frames that are the differing framerates to the overall framerate when encoding to your final format. If there are only a few, it doesn't take much work...if there are lots...well, lol. Also if you plan to use a VFR source and keep the output VFR you should not use DirectShowSource. Use either FFmpegSource (which can also get you the timecodes) or DSS2.

Otherwise yeah you would have to encode one version to lossless CFR (by forcing the source to one framerate from the start) and one to lossless VFRAC (keeping all the frames). But that's just stupid .

Also...why bother making an AVI version at all? You know you can put hardsubbed Xvid video into MKV. That way you keep the VFR and everything else, and don't need to do a billion extra things for some AVI fags. It's not complex to play MKV nowadays...especially if it's hardsubbed.
So then it wouldn't work. Alright, thank you. I'd probably be looking at XviD without a lossless if we were to decide to deal with VFR. XviD in MKV sound sort of fun, but I really wouldn't want to deal with the complaints. And is MKV able to play on a TV from a DVD?

TheFluff: I know I don't. That's why I ask.
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Old 2008-09-15, 16:36   Link #207
Daiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
That won't work...for obvious reasons.
Well, my mistake, but I'll blame it on the fact that I wouldn't rape a VFR source to CFR in the first place so I hadn't researched on the subject on how to do it "properly"

Anyway, Kristen, just dump old technology behind and move completely to H.264 MKVs. Let stupid people to figure out everything themselves, it's not like you have to do everything for them.
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Old 2008-09-15, 16:37   Link #208
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristen View Post
And is MKV able to play on a TV from a DVD?
... HURR.
That depends on what you have hooked the TV up to, obviously.
A windows PC? Yes, obviously.
A HTPC running linux? Sure, works too.
One of those Popcorn Hour boxes or something like it? Most likely.
A $40 "DivX certified" set-top DVD player? Hahaha no, get a real computer.
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Old 2008-09-16, 16:20   Link #209
neothe0ne
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modified slightly:
Quote:
Mux the VFR h264 to an mkv (I find mkvmerge from the mkvtoolnix is easiest), then use “mkv2vfr” from the Haali splitter (should be included in CCCP installation) to output an avi (delete this) and a timecode txt file.

then tc2cfr from the avi_tc_package and use command
tc2cfr 120000/1001 [input vfr].avi [timecodes from mkv2vfr].txt [out compressed work raw].avi

Not sure if this is the method you came up with that would make encoding XviD take 8 hours longer, but I don’t think it should be too time-consuming. Just the above steps should only take 3 minutes tops. After which you can use your avs scripts or w.e you do to mux in subtitles and convert to 29.97fps.

[also, wtf vfr avi? just grab Shinsen raws, they’re also vfr but they’re in the mp4 container which makes processing easier (I think)]
I don't see what's wrong with what I posted on your site shortly after you released 22. Of course, I'm not a fansub encoder, but I do this to rip out OP and RAW sequences from mp4 files for my StepMania files and have never encountered any problems with it.
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Old 2008-09-16, 16:24   Link #210
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
modified slightly:

I don't see what's wrong with what I posted on your site shortly after you released 22. Of course, I'm not a fansub encoder, but I do this to rip out OP and RAW sequences from mp4 files for my StepMania files and have never encountered any problems with it.
that will create a 120fps-with-dropframes workraw (a "VFR" AVI, so to speak) which is most assuredly not what you want

If you have trouble grasping the difference between VFR, VFRaC and CFR I recommend you read a minor wall of text I wrote about it a while ago.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
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Old 2008-09-16, 16:40   Link #211
neothe0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
that will create a 120fps-with-dropframes workraw (a "VFR" AVI, so to speak) which is most assuredly not what you want

If you have trouble grasping the difference between VFR, VFRaC and CFR I recommend you read a minor wall of text I wrote about it a while ago.
But wouldn't converting that to 29.97fps not drop any frames, assuming the source framerate was 29.97fps before making it VFR? I haven't noticed any by doing things this way.
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Old 2008-09-16, 17:31   Link #212
Kristen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
modified slightly:

I don't see what's wrong with what I posted on your site shortly after you released 22. Of course, I'm not a fansub encoder, but I do this to rip out OP and RAW sequences from mp4 files for my StepMania files and have never encountered any problems with it.
You're Kaoru I'm guessing?

Your suggesting sounds good to my non-encoder mind, but it would still require that I re-encode.

See, my process is Raw----(Filters)---->Lossless--->h.264. Once we have the script, we go from that lossless--->XviD.
However, the VFR will pose issues, since after encoding without convertfps, it came out as 26 minutes, and the timecodes brought it back to the regular 24:30. That's when timecodes are muxed in.
If I had that lossless, I couldn't go to XviD .avi from it, since the timecodes could not be applied, as I found out above. So as such, it would require an entirely new encode, which is 3:30-4:00 (That's hours) for a lossless, and another 1.5 for XviD (Since I run on a dual core, not a quad.) However, I'd probably be encoding it while I sleep, so I'd have to get everything done in one step, so it would be filtered XviD, which takes 9 hours on this PC.

From what I've hear, 29.970 also causes jerkiness in convertfps, just this time in the 23.976 fps places.
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Old 2008-09-16, 18:08   Link #213
Soichiro
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Slightly related: Sekirei is supposed to be 29.97 fps.

And yeah, VFR + xvid = pain in the ass. The only options are to do the XviD as CFR or to mux the xvid into an mkv container. However, if you want to save yourself from doing two losslesses, you could use avisynth to go from VFR lossless to CFR xvid (though the difficulty of that depends on just how VFR the source is. If it's just the OP/ED that are different frame rates, it'd be relatively simple, otherwise, I'm not really sure how to do that without making it a huge amount of work).

Last edited by Soichiro; 2008-09-16 at 19:39.
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Old 2008-09-16, 18:22   Link #214
neothe0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristen View Post
You're Kaoru I'm guessing?

Your suggesting sounds good to my non-encoder mind, but it would still require that I re-encode.

See, my process is Raw----(Filters)---->Lossless--->h.264. Once we have the script, we go from that lossless--->XviD.
However, the VFR will pose issues, since after encoding without convertfps, it came out as 26 minutes, and the timecodes brought it back to the regular 24:30. That's when timecodes are muxed in.
If I had that lossless, I couldn't go to XviD .avi from it, since the timecodes could not be applied, as I found out above. So as such, it would require an entirely new encode, which is 3:30-4:00 (That's hours) for a lossless, and another 1.5 for XviD (Since I run on a dual core, not a quad.) However, I'd probably be encoding it while I sleep, so I'd have to get everything done in one step, so it would be filtered XviD, which takes 9 hours on this PC.

From what I've hear, 29.970 also causes jerkiness in convertfps, just this time in the 23.976 fps places.
Just a random hermit traveling along, I assure you.

I don't understand the problem, actually. The way I understand tc2cfr to work, it losslessly adds dummy frames to get the 120fps avi, because if it was re-encoding, it would take hours, not minutes. I'm assuming that Synergy only animates in 29.97fps (I don't recall having any problems with SS-Eclipse's (TheFluff's?) Hayate no Gotoku! releases.) If that's so, the 120fps raw you're left with could be converted to that 29.97fps lossless and your process would appear to work fine still. This would only add about 5 minutes to your encoding time, if everything is working the way I'm thinking.

Also, if Synergy actually did animate parts in 24fps, 24fps -> 30fps is a much better solution than 30fps -> 24fps, especially considering how much of ZTC looks jerky in 24fps.
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Old 2008-09-16, 19:16   Link #215
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
But wouldn't converting that to 29.97fps not drop any frames, assuming the source framerate was 29.97fps before making it VFR? I haven't noticed any by doing things this way.
If the source framerate is 29.97fps it's CFR and you should not be having this discussion in the first place. If the source is VFR you shouldn't say it has "a framerate", because it doesn't and it's much easier once you've come to terms with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristen View Post
See, my process is Raw----(Filters)---->Lossless--->h.264. Once we have the script, we go from that lossless--->XviD.
However, the VFR will pose issues, since after encoding without convertfps, it came out as 26 minutes, and the timecodes brought it back to the regular 24:30. That's when timecodes are muxed in.
If I had that lossless, I couldn't go to XviD .avi from it, since the timecodes could not be applied, as I found out above. So as such, it would require an entirely new encode, which is 3:30-4:00 (That's hours) for a lossless, and another 1.5 for XviD (Since I run on a dual core, not a quad.) However, I'd probably be encoding it while I sleep, so I'd have to get everything done in one step, so it would be filtered XviD, which takes 9 hours on this PC.
If you're doing two versions (one VFR and one CFR) from the same lossless you have a few options:
a) make two losslesses, one converted to CFR and one VFRaC
b) mux the lossless to mkv with timecodes and use ffmpegsource() or somesuch for the VFR release and directshowsource(convertfps=true) for the CFR release
c) if the source only has two framerates and only switches at one or a few points (like for an OP/ED), you can encode one lossless per framerate section and splice them together with the appropriate framerate conversions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristen View Post
From what I've hear, 29.970 also causes jerkiness in convertfps, just this time in the 23.976 fps places.
Quotes such as this show that you still haven't understood anything at all about the actual issues here. Hence I will try to explain again.

The absolutely most important thing you must understand here is that THERE IS A VERY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FRAMES AND TIMESTAMPS.

Consider a frame. It's a picture, right? Video is just pictures, displayed one after each other. Each picture has a timestamp; a number (usually in milliseconds) that describes at what time (relative to the first frame) it should be displayed. This makes sure all frames are displayed in the correct order and at that the video is played at the correct speed. Usually, it is assumed that all frames are displayed for the same amount of time; that they all have the same duration. This is CFR, constant framerate.

Now, consider a very short "video", in which the letter B moves across the frame (each letter is a "pixel"):
Code:
Frame 1:
B A A
A A A
A A A

Frame 2:
A B A
A A A
A A A

Frame 3:
A A A
A B A
A A A

Frame 4:
A A A
A A B
A A A

Frame 5:
A A A
A A A
A A B

Frame 6:
A A A
A A A
A B A

Frame 7:
A A A
A A A
B A A

Frame 8:
A A A
B A A
A A A
Let's say each frame is displayed for one second each (one frame per second). Now, let's say we wanted to convert the video to 1.25fps, that is to say display each frame for 0.8 seconds instead. How do we do this? The simplest way would be to just run the video faster, making its total length 6.4 seconds (0.8 * 8) instead of the original 8, but if we had audio too that would make it go out of synch with the video. Instead we need to insert some extra frames. Two extra, to be specific, since that would make the video 8 seconds again. Where do we get those extra frames from? We duplicate some existing ones, of course. But that gives us another problem: since we aren't duplicating all frames, the duplicate frames will last for twice as long as they're supposed to, making the travel of the letter B uneven (or "jerky").

This is what happens with anime too; if you force a conversion to another framerate the result will have jerky motion. If the source has uneven frame durations (i.e. it's VFR), forcing it to be CFR WILL introduce jerky motion, unless all source framerates are evenly divisible with the target framerate (this is the case with 119.88fps; it is an even multiple of both 23.976 and 29.97).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soichiro View Post
do the XviD as VFR
what does this mean exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
I don't understand the problem, actually. The way I understand tc2cfr to work, it losslessly adds dummy frames to get the 120fps avi, because if it was re-encoding, it would take hours, not minutes.
This is correct but I don't get why you'd use it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
I'm assuming that Synergy only animates in 29.97fps (I don't recall having any problems with SS-Eclipse's (TheFluff's?) Hayate no Gotoku! releases.) If that's so, the 120fps raw you're left with could be converted to that 29.97fps lossless and your process would appear to work fine still. This would only add about 5 minutes to your encoding time, if everything is working the way I'm thinking.
Again, if it's constant 29.97fps, why the fiddling with 120fps? Also, Avisynth doesn't "get" dropframes and will deliver all 120 frames per seconds as if they were actual frames, making the encode time 4-5 times longer since it's 4-5 times more frames to encode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
Also, if Synergy actually did animate parts in 24fps, 24fps -> 30fps is a much better solution than 30fps -> 24fps, especially considering how much of ZTC looks jerky in 24fps.
It's pretty much just as bad actually.
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Old 2008-09-16, 19:39   Link #216
Soichiro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
what does this mean exactly
Er... it means I typoed and meant to say CFR. <.<;
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Old 2008-09-16, 20:03   Link #217
neothe0ne
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Quote:
Quote:
But wouldn't converting that to 29.97fps not drop any frames, assuming the source framerate was 29.97fps before making it VFR? I haven't noticed any by doing things this way.
If the source framerate is 29.97fps it's CFR and you should not be having this discussion in the first place. If the source is VFR you shouldn't say it has "a framerate", because it doesn't and it's much easier once you've come to terms with that.
What I meant is, a lot of h264 raws these days do this:
Quote:
..1186,1189,23.9521
1190,1279,29.9700
1280,1283,23.9521
1284,1323,29.9625
1324,1327,23.9521
1328,1347,29.9850
1348,1351,23.9521
1352,1376,29.9760
1377,1380,23.9521
1381,1410,29.9700
1411,1418,24.0240
1419,1448,29.9700
1449,1452,23.9521
1453,1497,29.9601
1498,1501,23.9521
1502,1551,29.9760
1552,1559,23.9521
1560,1584,29.9760
1585,1588,23.9521
1589,1688,29.9760..
but the actual playback should be 29.97 fps. That's taken from the timecodes I got out of Shinsen-Raws's ZTC 21 mp4.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
This is correct but I don't get why you'd use it at all.
Because I don't know how to use avs =\ Since that is the first method I found that works, that's what I've been doing.

My encoding needs mostly lie with OP and ED sequences only, so I don't really run into any problems taking that 120fps avi, dumping it in vdub, and then doing constant 23.976 or 29.97 over the appropriate 1:30 minute framerange.
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Old 2008-09-16, 21:40   Link #218
Yumi`
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
If you're doing two versions (one VFR and one CFR) from the same lossless you have a few options:
a) make two losslesses, one converted to CFR and one VFRaC
b) mux the lossless to mkv with timecodes and use ffmpegsource() or somesuch for the VFR release and directshowsource(convertfps=true) for the CFR release
c) if the source only has two framerates and only switches at one or a few points (like for an OP/ED), you can encode one lossless per framerate section and splice them together with the appropriate framerate conversions.
d) make a vfrac lossless; encode the h264 directly from it; run the lossless through tc2cfr to create the same lossless in hybrid 120fps and feed it with selectevery(5) to your xvid encoder. (no don't)
e) make a vfrac lossless; encode the h264 directly from it; turn it on-the-fly ( dupli().selectevery(5) ) into a cfr input to encode your useless xvid-in-avi.
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Old 2008-09-16, 21:47   Link #219
Kristen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soichiro View Post
Slightly related: Sekirei is supposed to be 29.97 fps.

And yeah, VFR + xvid = pain in the ass. The only options are to do the XviD as CFR or to mux the xvid into an mkv container. However, if you want to save yourself from doing two losslesses, you could use avisynth to go from VFR lossless to CFR xvid (though the difficulty of that depends on just how VFR the source is. If it's just the OP/ED that are different frame rates, it'd be relatively simple, otherwise, I'm not really sure how to do that without making it a huge amount of work).
It is? I thought that it was that the capper decided to keep all frames and smoothen the duplicates instead of dropping them. Well, we'll see what happens this week with Sekirei.

I think that it is the entire episode that is in different frame rates. I looked at the timecode file (the one with lots and lots of numbers. I think this is v2?), and it has strange jumps in numbers at places throughout the entire thing.
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Old 2008-09-16, 21:58   Link #220
Soichiro
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Can you convert the timecodes to v1 and post them, please? (v1's a lot easier for humans to read than v2)

And yeah, Sekirei is animated and broadcast at 29.97 fps. Even in transport streams, there's no duplicates or telecining. Though shows like that don't show up very often, so it's easy to get confused with them.
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