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Old 2008-09-30, 17:00   Link #261
TheFluff
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Since the CFR video will be CFR and jerky anyway, what is wrong with dss(convertfps=true) (or pretty much any other conversion method)?

edit: no wait now I'm confused, please ignore this for a few minutes while I reread nich's post

edit edit: ok so now I've unconfused myself again. It looks like what we're dealing with in that second example is someone using some auto-VFR decimation tool that decimates only when it's sure that there are duplicates, and leaves the rest as 30fps (note: you would not have known this unless you looked long and hard at the v1 timecodes AND looked at the "30fps" sections AND thought for a while about it). This means that to recover a "perfect" 100% 24fps source we'd have to re-decimate it manually (convertfps=true and other "dumb" VFR->CFR conversion tools aren't going to cut it; you'd need some kind of VFR-aware smart decimation tool). That isn't going to be any fun regardless of how you do it, so let's just not go there.
Alternatives:
1) use a "dumb" CFR conversion tool and hope the result isn't TOO jerky
2) leave it as it is with VFR and all (will probably be less jerky than alternative 1) and use a dumb CFR conversion tool for the CFR release

In case 2 the timecodes are definitely usable, and even in case 1 you'd need them to figure out what the heck's going on.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read

Last edited by TheFluff; 2008-09-30 at 17:21.
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Old 2008-09-30, 17:51   Link #262
Mentar
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No. If you accept directshowsource() as valid, then there's no reason not to go my approach in the first place. Read up not only Nich's post, but my initial approach to begin with, then you see how this abomination spawned.
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Old 2008-10-10, 23:33   Link #263
Nicholi
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Yeah so I misunderstood what Mentar was doing. Since he brought out the words "manual"... I didn't even think he was using DSS (and I didn't read any of his posts before the abomination started to see what he was doing , foolish me), since that's about the most non-manual method in the book.

I would only have to agree with TheFluff that DSS is slightly more of a dumb VFR->CFR method. Which works, albeit in a blackbox manner. For beginners the method Mentar described would probably be best if they had a really whacked out raw with tons of random framerate changes because the capper was crazy. I think otherwise though, in VFR raws which aren't insane, it would most likely be best to not use DSS and it's convertfps option. I typically dissuade people from using DSS anyways, only because it is not frame accurate so you can't reliably trim in it.
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Old 2008-11-14, 13:44   Link #264
Akatsuker
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I have a question.

I'm dealing with a vfr mkv raw here, and got the timecodes file just fine, using mkv2vfr. It's just set the bogus framerate, like Fluff said in the first post.
I didn't read the "afx & vfr" section, and didn't notice that it would be so hard to do my karaoke for OP on this series. I mean, i was working on a 23.976 raw, but now that I can work with timecodes and vfr, got the following info about the OP section:

Timecodes format V1 - Opening Frames Lines
Quote:
4044,4044,0.2924
4045,5559,23.9761
5560,5560,5.9880
5561,6554,23.9761
The bogus framerate: 23.972fps.

Ok, here's what i would do:

- Forget about the opening sequence on my next episodes, just do my translation, styling, timing and stuff being aware of the episodes' own timecodes files.
- Inserting the intro sequence on the avs script, editing properly on the current episode timecodes what would be the correct framerate for specific sections.

It should work, right?

My problem here is: I was wondering about the bogus framerate, as described on the first post. Avisynth is not ready to deal with vfr, and since my raws are all from the same source, I have to make sure the bogus framerate for the entire episode (and so the next ones) would be the exact same 23.972fps.

My question is: And if it's not? I think there's the possibility of this 23.972 turing into, uh, 23.974; Or even the well-known 23.976...

Right?

And what should I do, or should I know? Thanks!
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Old 2008-11-19, 12:52   Link #265
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akatsuker View Post
I have a question.

I'm dealing with a vfr mkv raw here, and got the timecodes file just fine, using mkv2vfr. It's just set the bogus framerate, like Fluff said in the first post.
I didn't read the "afx & vfr" section, and didn't notice that it would be so hard to do my karaoke for OP on this series. I mean, i was working on a 23.976 raw, but now that I can work with timecodes and vfr, got the following info about the OP section:

Timecodes format V1 - Opening Frames Lines


The bogus framerate: 23.972fps.

Ok, here's what i would do:

- Forget about the opening sequence on my next episodes, just do my translation, styling, timing and stuff being aware of the episodes' own timecodes files.
- Inserting the intro sequence on the avs script, editing properly on the current episode timecodes what would be the correct framerate for specific sections.

It should work, right?

My problem here is: I was wondering about the bogus framerate, as described on the first post. Avisynth is not ready to deal with vfr, and since my raws are all from the same source, I have to make sure the bogus framerate for the entire episode (and so the next ones) would be the exact same 23.972fps.

My question is: And if it's not? I think there's the possibility of this 23.972 turing into, uh, 23.974; Or even the well-known 23.976...

Right?

And what should I do, or should I know? Thanks!
I don't understand the question, please rephrase

e: a general note though, if you use afx karaoke (please don't) you must either ensure that the entire section that the karaoke is going to be subbed on is the same framerate, or do some kind of magic afx tricks to transform timestamps based on a timecodes file. vfr.cpp in the aegisub source tree might be useful for some sample code in the latter case.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-11-19, 15:52   Link #266
Akatsuker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
I don't understand the question, please rephrase

e: a general note though, if you use afx karaoke (please don't) you must either ensure that the entire section that the karaoke is going to be subbed on is the same framerate, or do some kind of magic afx tricks to transform timestamps based on a timecodes file. vfr.cpp in the aegisub source tree might be useful for some sample code in the latter case.

When I execute the mkv2vfr file, i get the timecodes from the vfr mkv and an avi with a bogus framerate, right? About THIS bogus framerate: If i'm doing a 20-25 episodes anime (assume i'm talking about all these raws coming from the very same source, ok?), on the first episode I apply this process, and so i've got the timecodes and this avi with this bogus framerate... But what about the next episodes? What should I do if the bogus framerate is different from that of the first episode?

The afx karaoke would be based on the first episode's bogus framerate. It would be out of sync - Please correct if i'm wrong.

I tried the ffmpegsource but got some errors related to codecs. That's why i'm dealing with mkv2vfr.

Another simple question, btw: when muxing, I must apply the v1 or v2 timecodes file? Could it be any of them?
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Old 2008-11-19, 16:30   Link #267
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akatsuker View Post
When I execute the mkv2vfr file, i get the timecodes from the vfr mkv and an avi with a bogus framerate, right? About THIS bogus framerate: If i'm doing a 20-25 episodes anime (assume i'm talking about all these raws coming from the very same source, ok?), on the first episode I apply this process, and so i've got the timecodes and this avi with this bogus framerate... But what about the next episodes? What should I do if the bogus framerate is different from that of the first episode?

The afx karaoke would be based on the first episode's bogus framerate. It would be out of sync - Please correct if i'm wrong.
The bogus framerate is just that, bogus. You can set it to anything, I believe mkv2vfr always sets it to 23.976 but I might be wrong. It isn't interesting at all for synch purposes unless you want to hardsub something, in which case you need to know both the bogus framerate (you can control this freely) and the actual VFR timestamps (these are raw-dependent). In short unless you are certain your raws will have the same VFR sectioning during the karaoke every episode (they most likely won't) you need to regenerate the AFX karaoke with new timestamps every episode.

Alternatively you just cut out the karaoke section of the raw, encode it as lossless with the AFX karaoke added in and just splice it in every episode. This will require some hand-editing of timecodes files every ep though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akatsuker View Post
Another simple question, btw: when muxing, I must apply the v1 or v2 timecodes file? Could it be any of them?
Either one works.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-11-19, 16:49   Link #268
pichu
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Just a note... AE only permits compositions up to 99fps, so it means that you can't mix roughly 24fps and 30fps footages together using roughly a 120fps comp (LCD of 24 and 30 is 120). One way is to elongate your karaoke's durations to 2 times longer in order to designate 60fps comps as 120fps. With a 1/2 time-lapsed 60fps overlay clip (so it's an effective 120fps of the correct timing), I'm sure you can properly overlay this video on a 24fps+30fps VFR video.

... but seriously, why would you want to use VFR for Openings and Endings?

Edit... there's also a duration setting in AE, allowing you to adjust the timelapse per layer. It only adjusts the timings for keyframes, startTime, in-point, out-point, endTime, etc so this may not work for some of the effects you're testing (i.e., Shatter).
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-11-19 at 17:02. Reason: duration
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Old 2008-11-19, 19:25   Link #269
dj_tjerk
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It's not that hard to make a script that finds the largest common denominator for the occuring framerates, and time remaps the composition to account for a different frame rate that way.. I actually did some VFR kara stuff for something i had to encode myself.. I guess it was mostly out of boredom, and I wanted to write a useless script for AE to get myself through the day.

Woot.. i guess my pc didnt crash in the meantime.. I still have that script xD. For those interested (the crazy masochist people that want panning and zooming in OPs and EDs to be as smooth as possible): script is here. Not even gonna bother explaining how it works since noone sane will use it. I did use it for Blue Dragon OP2, aep somewhere here.
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Old 2008-11-19, 21:57   Link #270
Akatsuker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
The bogus framerate is just that, bogus. You can set it to anything, I believe mkv2vfr always sets it to 23.976 but I might be wrong.
Well, mkv2vfr had set avi with a bogus framerate, in my case, of 23.971/2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Media Info
23.791 fps
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
It isn't interesting at all for synch purposes unless you want to hardsub something, in which case you need to know both the bogus framerate (you can control this freely) and the actual VFR timestamps (these are raw-dependent).
Yes, i'm talking about karaoke made on AFX, being so hardsubbed (actually overlayed) to an VFR release.
As long as I can control the bogus framerate freely, it's just fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
In short unless you are certain your raws will have the same VFR sectioning during the karaoke every episode (they most likely won't) you need to regenerate the AFX karaoke with new timestamps every episode.

Alternatively you just cut out the karaoke section of the raw, encode it as lossless with the AFX karaoke added in and just splice it in every episode. This will require some hand-editing of timecodes files every ep though.
I was about to do this: since I can't be sure for now what's the real situation of every opening section of my episodes, I would prepare an opening section in lossless (karaoke, logo, credits and everything included), so I could just append it on the proper time, replacing frames and audio, literally.
Editing the V1 timecodes doesn't seems to be hard, or even annoying. If this work, that's what I'm going to do.

Here's the entire opening section timecodes:

4045,5559,23.9761
5560,5560,5.9880
5561,6554,23.9761

I've got only ONE single frame on a different framerate: 5.9880fps.
What does it means? The time will slow down?
I plan to go the 4045-6554 (first frame of the opening all the way until the end frame of the whole opening) in a 23.9761 fps framerate. I doubt that the result would be too bad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Either one works.
Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu
... but seriously, why would you want to use VFR for Openings and Endings?
Because I tried to decimate it (i'm not an experienced avs editor, as you can see), but got no smoothness here. I'm a little perfectionist.

[offtopic]I have used the FDecimate(23.976), but didn't tweaked it. Do you suggest me something?[/offtopic]



dj_tjerk, thanks for sharing your stuff. I'll take a look. =P
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Old 2008-11-19, 22:24   Link #271
TheRyuu
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I fail to see the problem here.
The framerate is 23.976fps for the op.

Overlay the kara. Encode. Done?
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Old 2008-11-20, 03:11   Link #272
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akatsuker View Post
Here's the entire opening section timecodes:

4045,5559,23.9761
5560,5560,5.9880
5561,6554,23.9761

I've got only ONE single frame on a different framerate: 5.9880fps.
What does it means? The time will slow down?
I plan to go the 4045-6554 (first frame of the opening all the way until the end frame of the whole opening) in a 23.9761 fps framerate. I doubt that the result would be too bad.
Ok, that makes no sense to force the entire footage into VFR just because of that one tiny frame. I mean can't you just freeze frame that section that uses lower FPS?

AVISynth:
Code:
trim( 4045 , 5559 ) +\
freezeframe( 5560 , 5563 , 5560 ) +\
trim( 5564 , 6557 )
Or something like that. This way, you're now working with a 23.976fps CFR footage.

5.9880 X 4 = 23.952, which is why there are 4 freezeframes.

As a side note, animations often use a much lower framerates (8 fps) than normal pans.

Nevertheless, even with your VFR, you can still work with 23.976fps in AE, thereby rendering 23.976fps overlay video. That 5.9880fps can easily be divided into 23.976fps, so it's no big deal. And, I actually thought that you are planning to mix 24fps and 30fps together, making it a problem in AE as their common denominator is 120.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-11-20 at 03:28.
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Old 2008-11-20, 03:58   Link #273
edogawaconan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu View Post
... (LCD of 24 and 30 is 120)....
I think you meant LCM

1 would be (non-negative integer) LCD of anything
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Old 2008-11-20, 08:23   Link #274
pichu
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yeah yeah denominator...multiplier... I'm not the greatest with terms
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Old 2008-11-20, 14:59   Link #275
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu View Post
AVISynth:
Code:
trim( 4045 , 5559 ) +\
freezeframe( 5560 , 5563 , 5560 ) +\
trim( 5564 , 6557 )
that does not work, freezeframe replaces the frames of clip (last in this case) and returns the entire clip after modification, it does not add or remove frames. what your code snippet does is effectively this:
Code:
somesource()
a = last.trim(4045,5559)
b = last.trim(0,5559)+last.trim(5560,5560).loop(3)+last.trim(5564,0)
c = last.trim(5564,6557)

a+b+c
which is rather obviously wrong.

Code:
trim(0,5559)+trim(5560,5560).assumefps(5.9880).changefps(last.framerate)+trim(5561,0)
is what I would have done
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read

Last edited by TheFluff; 2008-11-20 at 15:11.
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Old 2008-11-20, 17:30   Link #276
Akatsuker
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@ TheFluff

Quote:
trim(0,5559)+trim(5560,5560).assumefps(5.9880).cha ngefps(last.framerate)+trim(5561,0)
You mean Trim(5561,endframeofepisode), right?
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Old 2008-11-20, 17:37   Link #277
NicestBoat
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Trim(startframe,0) is valid syntax, and it selects the frames starting from startframe to the end of the clip.
Read the avisynth wiki for more details about the parameters.
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Old 2008-11-21, 09:32   Link #278
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akatsuker View Post
You mean Trim(5561,endframeofepisode), right?
well yes I could have written trim(5561, last.framecount-1) but as nicestboat said calling trim with 0 as the endframe is the same as calling it with the last frame of the clip as endframe.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-11-21, 14:01   Link #279
pichu
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Well, I was under an assumption that the clip has been truncated from the original CFR, as you may have realized that I added three extra frames there, and yes, they're still wrong: trim(0,5559)++trim(5560,5560).loop(4)++trim(5561,0 )
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-11-21 at 14:13.
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Old 2008-12-28, 00:00   Link #280
schultzz
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hardsubing karaoke on a VFR video

i need some help, i decided it would be a good idea to start using VFR video, i have no problem with the softsubs, but when i start to encode the karaoke the subs are off by miles.
ive tried some methods that use aegisub to transform the .ass file into a VFR ass but i still cant get the correct result.

is there someone who can help me, i understand the VFR concept so i think i just need to know the correct path to take.

by the way sorry for my bad english, its not my native langauge.
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