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Old 2010-11-07, 09:17   Link #4061
Keroko
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Yes, but why the interest in Natsu? Natsu had nothing to do with Urtear's plans or the tower at all, yet Jellal stills shows an interest in Natsu even after his tower has been crushed. He's still planning something, something which has been foreshadowed ever since the 23rd chapter. And with the Yagami Light-type smirk Jellal has every time his interest in Natsu shows, I doubt it's something good.
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Old 2010-11-07, 09:38   Link #4062
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Yeah, Gerard Jellal's rape-face back there was quite the surprise, but he can be one of the aforementioned tragic heroes that keep being manipulated for the entirety of their lives, aiming to go against their destiny. I think he'd fit the role, who knows what Brain did to him while collecting his pieces off the tower...
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Old 2010-11-07, 10:07   Link #4063
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, but why the interest in Natsu? Natsu had nothing to do with Urtear's plans or the tower at all, yet Jellal stills shows an interest in Natsu even after his tower has been crushed. He's still planning something, something which has been foreshadowed ever since the 23rd chapter. And with the Yagami Light-type smirk Jellal has every time his interest in Natsu shows, I doubt it's something good.
I'm of the opinion that while Jellal was 'mind-controlled', it wasn't as if he didn't have some measure of free will. Obviously driven by the crazy pursuit of reviving Zeref, he also set aside other contingency and additional exploitable factors, such as his pursuit of Deliora ( though it was probably Urtear as well ), his knowledge of Nirvana, the relationship he had with Oracion Seis/Brain ( obviously not directly related, else Grimoire Heart would had probably absorbed the members of OS ), among other things.

It is possible that whatever evil plans he had for Natsu, which included his growth of strength, could now be used for the good side. Assuming he remembers it, anyway.

Still, it's a free zone to go either way. It really depends on what role Zeref/Urtear will play in relations to Erza, whether or not the truth about Jellal being manipulated would be revealed to Erza/Fairy Tail, the outcome/repercussion of this arc, and whether or not it'll lead to a Jellal-centric arc later.

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Yeah, Gerard Jellal's rape-face back there was quite the surprise, but he can be one of the aforementioned tragic heroes that keep being manipulated for the entirety of their lives, aiming to go against their destiny. I think he'd fit the role, who knows what Brain did to him while collecting his pieces off the tower...
That was pretty much a red herring, since despite showing up with an evil face when he attacked Natsu, it turned out to be for good reasons. And I wouldn't really call his 'as expected' face after Zero's defeat as an evil look, at least compared to his older 'just as planned' evil face.
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Old 2010-11-07, 10:23   Link #4064
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It is possible that whatever evil plans he had for Natsu, which included his growth of strength, could now be used for the good side. Assuming he remembers it, anyway.
Hmyeah, true. And he does seem to remember, though that does not help the argument of him being a good guy. Why lie about amnesia, after all?

In any case, what does does confirm with reasonable accuracy is that we haven't seen the last of Jellal. Whether it is for good or bad is still up in the air, but with an unfinished thread still up in the air we can be sure we'll see him again.

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Still, it's a free zone to go either way. It really depends on what role Zeref/Urtear will play in relations to Erza, whether or not the truth about Jellal being manipulated would be revealed to Erza/Fairy Tail, the outcome/repercussion of this arc, and whether or not it'll lead to a Jellal-centric arc later.
I wouldn't be surprised if Jellal pulled a final boss card and reveals that he knew Urtear was manipulating him and was just playing along.

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That was pretty much a red herring, since despite showing up with an evil face when he attacked Natsu, it turned out to be for good reasons. And I wouldn't really call his 'as expected' face after Zero's defeat as an evil look, at least compared to his older 'just as planned' evil face.


*compares the two*

Quite similar, methinks. They both even have the half-shadow of doom, even if it's slightly less noticeable on Nirvana Jellal.
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Old 2010-11-07, 10:39   Link #4065
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Hmyeah, true. And he does seem to remember, though that does not help the argument of him being a good guy. Why lie about amnesia, after all?
He said he only crudely remember bits about Natsu and nothing else. Wouldn't be a lie if that's the case.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Jellal pulled a final boss card and reveals that he knew Urtear was manipulating him and was just playing along.
That would be... awkward, to say the least. A play-along where he goes the extra mile on the Tower of Paradise plan which is high-risk/zero-reward ( since Zeref was never dead ) to the point where he got sucked in Aetherion/R-System, ended up in a coma that only Wendy was capable of healing, took the extreme risk of helping Natsu despite Zero being an actual ally and Natsu hating him and allowed himself to be captured despite being said that he may actually face execution?

It would be a master plan that beats Lelouch, Light Yagami, L, Near and Johan combined.

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*compares the two*

Quite similar, methinks. They both even have the half-shadow of doom, even if it's slightly less noticeable on Nirvana Jellal.
The smile is similar, but the shadow of doom on Nirvana Jellal is really just the hair and the mark on his face. The scene wasn't really given a proper focus for us to distinguish whether or not it's a 'just as planned, sucker!' or a 'my believe in you whom Erza believes in is true, and beyond that.'

Overall though, from what I see of Jellal in the Nirvana arc, my opinion leans towards that he's no longer evil. The scene where he remembers Erza's hair colour, the scene where he 'thought' that Erza was the light that gave him hope during the Midnight fight feels to me, like a decent indicator to push the optimistic agenda for Jellal, rather than the pessimistic one.
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Old 2010-11-07, 10:52   Link #4066
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He said he only crudely remember bits about Natsu and nothing else. Wouldn't be a lie if that's the case.
Point. And now that I think about it, he did use the 'ray of hope' line even though that was the first time anyone called him that.

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That would be... awkward, to say the least. A play-along where he goes the extra mile on the Tower of Paradise plan which is high-risk/zero-reward ( since Zeref was never dead ) to the point where he got sucked in Aetherion/R-System, ended up in a coma that only Wendy was capable of healing, took the extreme risk of helping Natsu despite Zero being an actual ally and Natsu hating him and allowed himself to be captured despite being said that he may actually face execution?

It would be a master plan that beats Lelouch, Light Yagami, L, Near and Johan combined.
Wouldn't be the first time. Emperor Palpatine pulled that plan more times than I bothered to count.

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The smile is similar, but the shadow of doom on Nirvana Jellal is really just the hair and the mark on his face. The scene wasn't really given a proper focus for us to distinguish whether or not it's a 'just as planned, sucker!' or a 'my believe in you whom Erza believes in is true, and beyond that.'
I don't agree, but I can see where you're coming from. Different interpretations, I guess.

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Overall though, from what I see of Jellal in the Nirvana arc, my opinion leans towards that he's no longer evil. The scene where he remembers Erza's hair colour, the scene where he 'thought' that Erza was the light that gave him hope during the Midnight fight feels to me, like a decent indicator to push the optimistic agenda for Jellal, rather than the pessimistic one.
I'm the opposite, for someone who has already shown to be a master at manipulation I don't trust him until I find out just what exactly that plan involving Natsu is. While I won't say he definitely is evil, I'm not convinced that he turned into a good guy either.
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Old 2010-11-07, 10:58   Link #4067
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All of which are perfect examples of misunderstood villains.
I don't see them as misunderstood villains. What they were doing was still wrong and still brought them into conflict with the heroes. And despite that, the fact I wanted to get across was the "reason vs. non-reason" villains do things. I prefer my villains to have reasons, rather then the non-reason of "I'm kicking puppies cuz I'm EVIL!" type.

But even if you want to dismiss them, I can bring up Precia. Not nearly as "misunderstood" and can still be considered evil; yet she had reasons for what she was doing. She wouldn't have caused dimensional disturbances on her own just to be evil.

But I've probably gone a bit too far off on a tangent when this is a Fairy Tail thread, heh. So I'll bring up Laxus as an interesting villain that I like. Would you call him misunderstood? I call him having reasons for doing what he was doing, rather than doing them just to be "bad."
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Old 2010-11-07, 11:12   Link #4068
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But I've probably gone a bit too far off on a tangent when this is a Fairy Tail thread, heh. So I'll bring up Laxus as an interesting villain that I like. Would you call him misunderstood? I call him having reasons for doing what he was doing, rather than doing them just to be "bad."
Laxus is actually a fine example of a misunderstood villain. A noble goal achieved through evil means, even closing the chapter with a redemption in the end. Textbook misunderstood villain if I ever saw one.

Perhaps I should rephrase my stance, I don't mind villains having reasons -in fact, I prefer it- but for the enemies that are supposed to be the ultimate bad guys I'd like for those reasons to be actually... well... evil. Does every villain really need a noble goal? Do they all have to be morally ambiguous?
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Old 2010-11-07, 11:48   Link #4069
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Laxus is actually a fine example of a misunderstood villain. A noble goal achieved through evil means, even closing the chapter with a redemption in the end. Textbook misunderstood villain if I ever saw one.

Perhaps I should rephrase my stance, I don't mind villains having reasons -in fact, I prefer it- but for the enemies that are supposed to be the ultimate bad guys I'd like for those reasons to be actually... well... evil. Does every villain really need a noble goal? Do they all have to be morally ambiguous?
Yes. In real life, people do need good reasons to do what they do, even if it's stealing money from a bank. A poor person steals because they need money to feed themselves.

There really are very few people in the real world who do things just to be evil; Everyone does have a reason. And most times, when people do evil, they are doing it because they think it's good; so having a reason is actually very realistic. Thus, someone not having a reason, comes across as unrealistic to me, and it's harder for me to take it seriously. I grew up on too many cartoon villains who were cartoonishly evil, doing things to "spread darkness and fear across the galaxy!"

Not sure if you watched Superman: The Animated Series, and later Justice League (and JLA Unlimited). Luther was evil, but his reasons for doing so almost seemed good. He felt we couldn't trust aliens, and later the government partially aligned with that because they were afraid of the huge force in orbit.

Heh, Flash later switches bodies with Luther and tries to pretend to be Luther so he isn't found out. Another villain asks him as he's leaving the bathroom: "Hey, aren't you going to wash your hands?"

Flash-in-Luther's-body: "Nope. Cuz I'm EVIL!"

Take the Crusades; Christians making war to force others covert. The Reason? Trying to save their souls. Hell, take the terrorists today. Why are they evil? Dig for it, and you'll find their reasons.

Everyone has a reason for what they do, and the moment you chalk it up to pure evil, is the moment your understanding ceases to exist. Find the reasons why someone does something, and you can better understand them (Nanoha's playbook, by the way, which is why I like her ;p). So, because of that, I think you'll find most everyone to be a "misunderstood" villain, but I really feel you're stretching the meaning of that phrase.

Misunderstood more applies to those whom you normally wouldn't fight. They are doing something for the right reasons, and the heroes don't understand that and thus they fight. If the villains were truly misunderstood, and the heroes found out the reasons, there should be no fighting. A truly misunderstood villain is tragic precisely because no one takes the time to understand them. In that light, Precia and Laxus weren't misunderstood villains. Their reasons weren't quite clear at first, but even if those reasons were known, their passions would still mean the heroes had to oppose them.

Laxus's intentions weren't noble; he was committing the classic sin of "destroying the village in order to save it." I understood his frustrations, but he wasn't a misunderstood villain because everyone would have still fought to prevent him from destroying Fairy Tail, even had they known exactly why he was doing what he was doing.
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Old 2010-11-07, 11:58   Link #4070
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A poor person might have a noble goal for stealing, yes, but many thieves in the world aren't poor enough that they can't feed themselves, yet they still steal. A person might steal a HDTV because he wants one. Does he need one? No, but he'll still steal one. His reason for stealing is simply because he wants a TV. Theft, murder, extortion, vandalism, threats, there are millions of people who commit these acts and many of them do so for simple reasons like greed or amusement.

So no, even in real life not everyone has a noble reason for doing evil.

Which brings me back to my point, I don't mind a reason, but why does it have to be a noble reason? Why must we be able to sympathize with every villain out there? There is a difference between giving a villain a reason, and making them tragic beings we should sympathize with.
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Old 2010-11-07, 12:21   Link #4071
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Indeed, plenty of evil gets committed for rather petty reasons.

But I think a great villain must have a vision in which he is noble, and right. And the closest to believable that vision is, the better. Otherwise, either you end up wondering why anyone works with that guy when he's so obviously bad for everyone, or the scale of his evil is lacking (I mean, yes, fine, I can see why people would want to work for a talented bank robber. But is tthat Big Bad material for a manga like FT?).
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Old 2010-11-07, 12:29   Link #4072
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It's easy to find people willing to work for evil people. Just look at any country with a corrupt government, as long as those who join him get a share in the glory, riches and power, they couldn't care less how evil the guy they're working for is.

Granted, the guy generally isn't 'I kill my minions for picking their nose' level evil either. A good example in Fairy Tail is Josť. He was a villain to his enemies, but good for his own troops (providing they didn't rebel, of course). His reason for attacking Fairy Tail and capturing Lucy? Greed and power.
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Old 2010-11-07, 12:40   Link #4073
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It's easy to find people willing to work for evil people. Just look at any country with a corrupt government, as long as those who join him get a share in the glory, riches and power, they couldn't care less how evil the guy they're working for is.

Granted, the guy generally isn't 'I kill my minions for picking their nose' level evil either. A good example in Fairy Tail is Josť. He was a villain to his enemies, but good for his own troops (providing they didn't rebel, of course). His reason for attacking Fairy Tail and capturing Lucy? Greed and power.
Yes, and as I said - scale. Josť was good enough for an early villain. But the real Big Bad should want more than make a buck. He should not only want to change the world, but inspire others to want that change.
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Old 2010-11-07, 12:54   Link #4074
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Yes, and as I said - scale. Josť was good enough for an early villain. But the real Big Bad should want more than make a buck. He should not only want to change the world, but inspire others to want that change.
Kelfka didn't need to do any of that stuff and he is probably the most memorable of the FF villans.
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Old 2010-11-07, 12:58   Link #4075
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Light is a good example of a morally ambiguous villain who gets his point across from day 1; he reeks of evil and yet his cause is just, later he even got the majority of the world to follow him.
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I grew up on too many cartoon villains who were cartoonishly evil, doing things to "spread darkness and fear across the galaxy!"
Send them to the void!
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Thus, someone not having a reason, comes across as unrealistic to me, and it's harder for me to take it seriously.
If a villain revelled in the blood of his enemies, saying it's his way of defining his existence, would you place him in the "evil, just because" villains?
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Old 2010-11-07, 13:08   Link #4076
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Yes, and as I said - scale. Josť was good enough for an early villain. But the real Big Bad should want more than make a buck. He should not only want to change the world, but inspire others to want that change.
Oh I wasn't disagreeing with you, merely expanding.
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Old 2010-11-07, 14:07   Link #4077
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Kelfka didn't need to do any of that stuff and he is probably the most memorable of the FF villans.
... after Sephiroth, of course

and as for a villian wanting to change the world and have poeple follow him... you forgot one other factor that Big Bads need to have: they need to make people be deathly afraid of them
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Old 2010-11-07, 14:19   Link #4078
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I don't see them as misunderstood villains. What they were doing was still wrong and still brought them into conflict with the heroes. And despite that, the fact I wanted to get across was the "reason vs. non-reason" villains do things. I prefer my villains to have reasons, rather then the non-reason of "I'm kicking puppies cuz I'm EVIL!" type.

But even if you want to dismiss them, I can bring up Precia. Not nearly as "misunderstood" and can still be considered evil; yet she had reasons for what she was doing. She wouldn't have caused dimensional disturbances on her own just to be evil.
Yes and no. Causing dimensional disturbances and all it entails to resurrect her daughter? Evil, but understandable. Her treatment of Fate, OTOH, just underlined how batshit crazy she was.

Quote:
But I've probably gone a bit too far off on a tangent when this is a Fairy Tail thread, heh. So I'll bring up Laxus as an interesting villain that I like. Would you call him misunderstood? I call him having reasons for doing what he was doing, rather than doing them just to be "bad."
He's definitely misunderstood. By me. Even now, I have no idea what he was about. I mean, assume he won. FT would be him and his three cronies. Discounting Makarov on account of his age, and Gildartz because Luxus assumed he wouldn't come back anyway, he'd still have lost two S-class mages out of three, two Dragon Slayers out of three (admittedly, he may not care about that - we know being a DS is special because we know who the protagonist is, but it's more of a meta reasoning than anything), and most of the up and comers like Gray and Juvia. How would that make the guild "stronger"?


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and as for a villian wanting to change the world and have poeple follow him... you forgot one other factor that Big Bads need to have: they need to make people be deathly afraid of them
That goes without saying unless we're talking about joke villains.
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Old 2010-11-07, 15:00   Link #4079
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... after Sephiroth, of course

and as for a villian wanting to change the world and have poeple follow him... you forgot one other factor that Big Bads need to have: they need to make people be deathly afraid of them
Sephiroth is just a bishi emo, he can't hold a candle to kelfka's pure evil.
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Old 2010-11-07, 15:12   Link #4080
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Sephiroth is just a bishi emo, he can't hold a candle to kelfka's pure evil.
Sadly, the post-FF7 generation don't know the glory that is Kefka. Absolutely psycho.
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