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Old 2010-11-07, 16:26   Link #4081
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which brings me back to my point, I don't mind a reason, but why does it have to be a noble reason? Why must we be able to sympathize with every villain out there? There is a difference between giving a villain a reason, and making them tragic beings we should sympathize with.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. I don't care if the reason is noble or not.; just that they have one. If someone likes robbing banks because they like having a lot of money, or find excitement in it, that's fine with me. They have a reason.

Heh, and Kefka. Yes, I liked him, too. That brings up a good point, which I'll also use the Joker from the newest Batman movie series. Kefka was messed up in the head due to experiments, wanting everything to burn and die, and was a rare example of a cartoonish villain done fairly good. I could understand why he did what he did; his reason was that he was insane. And it's not like everyone followed him; he just did evil acts and took over power where he could.

The Joker was just an embodiment for chaos. I didn't much like that version, because there was no real reason why he was the way he was. I gather it might have been something with that gas that was released at the end of the first movie, but other than that, I didn't really understand his reason. It seemed like he was just introducing chaos, for the sake of chaos.

So my villains don't need noble reasons (though bonus points for good writing if you can bring two sides into conflict where they both have noble ideals). As long as they have reasons for what they do, and aren't just doing it to be evil.

Laxus wanted to toughen up the guild, and make it into something respected. He wasn't a misunderstood villain. He was plainly doing the wrong thing, the wrong way. He was attempting to force his will on everyone, when the guild itself should determine how it wants to be. He doesn't get much sympathy from me, even though I'd like to see him straighten up and redeem himself later.
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Old 2010-11-07, 17:18   Link #4082
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. I don't care if the reason is noble or not.; just that they have one. If someone likes robbing banks because they like having a lot of money, or find excitement in it, that's fine with me. They have a reason.

Heh, and Kefka. Yes, I liked him, too. That brings up a good point, which I'll also use the Joker from the newest Batman movie series. Kefka was messed up in the head due to experiments, wanting everything to burn and die, and was a rare example of a cartoonish villain done fairly good. I could understand why he did what he did; his reason was that he was insane. And it's not like everyone followed him; he just did evil acts and took over power where he could.

The Joker was just an embodiment for chaos. I didn't much like that version, because there was no real reason why he was the way he was. I gather it might have been something with that gas that was released at the end of the first movie, but other than that, I didn't really understand his reason. It seemed like he was just introducing chaos, for the sake of chaos.
I think the Joker was an excellent villain because he did have a vision. Not so much of the world as it should be, but as it was. He didn't want to change the world so much as reveal it. And the fact that he came basically out of nowhere, could be anyone, is what makes him scary. He isn't some kid who inherited billions after a traumatic event. He isn't some super scientist with stunted social skills that's been slighted one too many time. (Or, if he is, it doesn't matter to his identity as Joker.) He's no one, and thus, could be anyone.

Quote:
So my villains don't need noble reasons (though bonus points for good writing if you can bring two sides into conflict where they both have noble ideals). As long as they have reasons for what they do, and aren't just doing it to be evil.

Laxus wanted to toughen up the guild, and make it into something respected. He wasn't a misunderstood villain. He was plainly doing the wrong thing, the wrong way. He was attempting to force his will on everyone, when the guild itself should determine how it wants to be. He doesn't get much sympathy from me, even though I'd like to see him straighten up and redeem himself later.
Yeah, but as I said - morals set aside, how did he hope to accomplish his goal?
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Old 2010-11-07, 17:44   Link #4083
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Taking charge, mostly. Note that his initial plan was to have Makarov give up the title without anyone getting killed, when that failed he slowly descended into madness.

And his goal wasn't evil. There's nothing evil about wanting your guild to the strongest guild and less of a laughing stock, which was Laxus's goal. It's just that the method he chose to achieve it was wrong. Instead of taking over, he should have become a respectable role model.
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Old 2010-11-07, 17:53   Link #4084
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Taking charge, mostly. Note that his initial plan was to have Makarov give up the title without anyone getting killed, when that failed he slowly descended into madness.
As far as I can tell, even if he'd gotten the guild with his first strike, he'd still have lost (or chased away) everyone but the Raijinshuu. Sure, it'd be more of an "elite" guild, but it would be weaker and wouldn't be able to take nearly as many jobs. (That is, until Laxus lost his temper again and fired even his followers. Then Fairy Tail would be a guild of one. I'm sure everyone would be impressed.)
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Old 2010-11-07, 18:32   Link #4085
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Well, that depends. Whether everyone would have left the guild is a big if, Fairy Tail wizards are quite attached to their guild after all.
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Old 2010-11-07, 19:04   Link #4086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
As far as I can tell, even if he'd gotten the guild with his first strike, he'd still have lost (or chased away) everyone but the Raijinshuu. Sure, it'd be more of an "elite" guild, but it would be weaker and wouldn't be able to take nearly as many jobs. (That is, until Laxus lost his temper again and fired even his followers. Then Fairy Tail would be a guild of one. I'm sure everyone would be impressed.)
Laxus's plan was to beat up FT, show them how weak they were, and force them to either be strong, take things "seriously", or force out the weak ones. That's why he forced FT members to fight each other; to find the stronger and weaker ones.

The main problem was that he completely misread people, and didn't think that they'd behave differently, outside of his vision. It's a common failing among villains; not quite analyzing things properly.
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Old 2010-11-07, 19:13   Link #4087
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Laxus's plan was to beat up FT, show them how weak they were, and force them to either be strong, take things "seriously", or force out the weak ones. That's why he forced FT members to fight each other; to find the stronger and weaker ones.

The main problem was that he completely misread people, and didn't think that they'd behave differently, outside of his vision. It's a common failing among villains; not quite analyzing things properly.
it is call tunnel vision, lot of people have it not just villain.
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Old 2010-11-07, 19:24   Link #4088
Anh_Minh
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Well, that depends. Whether everyone would have left the guild is a big if, Fairy Tail wizards are quite attached to their guild after all.
I'm not sure if he thought Erza was fit to be in his Fairy Tail. He'd have fired everyone weaker than her, which means everyone except Mystgun. And I don't think Mystgun would have been all that interested in staying, either.
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Old 2010-11-07, 19:59   Link #4089
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He was just mad that things didn't go as planned.

The last 2/3rd of Laxus's arc was just an oversized kid with lightning powers throwing a tantrum because grandpa didn't want to give him his favourite toy.

As far as the villain talk goes though, I just want a good development for the villain. I don't care if he's pure evil, had noble reasons, split personality, or what not. It simply needed to be presented well.

I definitely felt that Laxus and Jose were okay as far as villain goes. Nothing too spectacular, but they were covered with sufficient and grounded motives for what they did. ( Forcing his own opinion of a guild on others the wrong way/Jealous asshole who can't accept that his biggest guild was being overtaken by a better guild ) I didn't like Zero's bwahahahahahaha I just want to destroy bwahahahahahaha!
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Old 2010-11-07, 20:19   Link #4090
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Does anyone else beside me feel that the new girl Meldy looks a lot like Lisanna?
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Old 2010-11-07, 21:11   Link #4091
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Nah, in the earlier chapters the master of Hades said there were seven keys, Zodiac go to twelve.
I don't think he ever stated an exact number. (His previous appearances were in chapters 102 and 131.)
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Old 2010-11-07, 21:36   Link #4092
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Does anyone else beside me feel that the new girl Meldy looks a lot like Lisanna?
Don't tell me that she's actually Edoras' Lisanna
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Old 2010-11-07, 22:50   Link #4093
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Don't tell me that she's actually Edoras' Lisanna
Not really what i was thinking. coming into this arc we still had blank areas concerning lisanna, why she was dragged into Edoras rather than Elfman or Mira since they were so much more powerful, why everyone thought she was dead when she just disappeared.

Now here's a thought. I find it odd that GH suddenly have every key to Zeref even though generally more would be shown on them obtaining it (Mashima likes to go into arcs concerning this type of thing if RM is any indication. Plus it seems really important to just pass off the finding of all but 1 of the keys). So what if the obtaining of one was told about but we didn't realize it.

the attack 2 years ago that sent Lisanna to edoras was instigated by GH to obtain one of the keys to Zeref. Lisanna had the key without knowing it. So when the fighting was going on and she was injured maybe they created a copy of Lisanna for use of the key because lisanna wouldn't help them and she also disappeared. perhaps the power of the key was what got Lisanna dragged to Edoras rather than Mira or Elfman.

With Mashima from what i have seen, if 2 characters look alike there tends to be a purpose behind it.
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Old 2010-11-08, 00:46   Link #4094
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I actually think Meldy looks more like Virgo, but I guess the similarity can be applied to both.
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Old 2010-11-08, 00:51   Link #4095
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i think you guys reading too much into it. Mishima is not the most imaginative guy out there in terms of characters. Form Rave to FT, we already seen him reuse every single design he has.
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Old 2010-11-08, 01:02   Link #4096
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i think you guys reading too much into it. Mishima is not the most imaginative guy out there in terms of characters. Form Rave to FT, we already seen him reuse every single design he has.
Pretty much what Xellos said.

Meldy looks similar, but not identical enough to make readers go 'omg another Lisanna?' The fact that the similarity can be attributed to both Virgo and Lisanna should mean that Mashima didn't make it a point to emphasis their identical aspects.

If he really wanted to use the Edoras Lisanna trick, he would had her wear a mask or something. Though I personally wouldn't mind a double-Lisanna harem for Natsu.
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Old 2010-11-08, 01:49   Link #4097
Anh_Minh
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He was just mad that things didn't go as planned.
My point was, even if everything had gone as planned, he'd have ended up destroying the guild more than strengthening it.
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Old 2010-11-08, 01:57   Link #4098
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My point was, even if everything had gone as planned, he'd have ended up destroying the guild more than strengthening it.
Laxus, really, did what he did because he was a spoiled brat that just hit his puberty. He didn't really want to strengthen the guild or all that, but simply "I'm too cool to be in the same guild as you weaklings, but I don't wanna leave, so you will."

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Does anyone else beside me feel that the new girl Meldy looks a lot like Lisanna?
She looks like a Mishima's girls.

Like every other.
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Old 2010-11-08, 07:37   Link #4099
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i think you guys reading too much into it. Mishima is not the most imaginative guy out there in terms of characters. Form Rave to FT, we already seen him reuse every single design he has.
Ever read anything by Mitsuru Adachi?
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Old 2010-11-08, 08:32   Link #4100
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I don't think he ever stated an exact number. (His previous appearances were in chapters 102 and 131.)
*rereads* Huh, you're right. I wonder where I got the idea that he said seven then...

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My point was, even if everything had gone as planned, he'd have ended up destroying the guild more than strengthening it.
If everything went as planned he'd have control of the guild and booted out the 'weaklings that get beaten.' Less weak members, less lost battles, win/loss ratio goes up.

Never said it's smart. It's the same childish thinking that we see in online games, and it's not smart there either.
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