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Old 2011-11-11, 10:07   Link #6781
White Silver King
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Really? Natsu can use Lightning Dragon powers forever now? Ugh...

On a positive note, it looks like one of my favorite things in a shonen is going to happen... a tournament! Hopefully Mirajane gets a good opponent.
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Old 2011-11-11, 11:09   Link #6782
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Why is this manga so intent on making us forgive Laxus? This is not meant to hate on the character, but his atonement should be more gradual. When he got excommunicated, we basically get Natsu yelling in our faces about how "overblown" excommunication is, even though he did endanger people. I praise Laxus' involvement in fighting Hades, but it seems like a blatant way to maintain status quo. I just wish it could be handled a bit better.

Anyway, we're finally gonna get some insight on Polyrusica! Yeah, so her constant phrasing wasn't just some boomerang bigotry...
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Old 2011-11-11, 11:15   Link #6783
ronin myael
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natsu being able to use lightning? how is that possible? the last time he did that he got it from laxus, how did he steal lightning this time? anyone care to explain? maybe i just missed something.
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Old 2011-11-11, 11:20   Link #6784
Anh_Minh
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I think it was some leftover lightning?

But I'm more worried about him suddenly being barely above average. How did that happen?
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Old 2011-11-11, 11:26   Link #6785
White Silver King
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But I'm more worried about him suddenly being barely above average. How did that happen?
It's been 7 years. The mages of Fairy Tail were always strong, even the non-core members so with all this time they've grown incredibly more powerful. It makes sense he would spank Natsu, but Mashima can't even let him lose in a practice battle against friends. Ridiculous...
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Old 2011-11-11, 11:30   Link #6786
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Chapter is a disappointment. Natsu doesn't need lightning and the battle with Max makes no sense. Natsu was suppossedly #1 at his age and even if others now equal his years of experience he should have been able to edge them out, without resorting to hidden annoying canon breaking technique. I hope it is explained later by the author, or better translation(it's probably the author though). The other guilds simply should have more members that are at their level because of better recruiting and a few higher ups more powerful like the last chapter. This all of a sudden makes it seem like magic is some kind of technology that increases over time. It also disrupts the usually assumed reasoning that older magic=better magic.

The only positive out of this whole thing was the fact that they are supposedly an underdog now, but seeing Natsu's ability to make something out of nothing, I have a feeling the other characters will do the same. I want a story arc to explain them a. getting better/super short training arc barely a chapter long or b. work their way to the top with smarter tactics and increasing teamwork.

I would simply be happy if Lucy started pulling her weight and using her supposedly powerful/awesome golden keys in a competent manner. That alone would help them in a fight to the top spot.
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Old 2011-11-11, 11:31   Link #6787
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
It's been 7 years. The mages of Fairy Tail were always strong, even the non-core members so with all this time they've grown incredibly more powerful. It makes sense he would spank Natsu, but Mashima can't even let him lose in a practice battle against friends. Ridiculous...
- FT's the worst guild in Fiore.
- He made it sound like everyone became so much stronger the Natsu's just... "meh", now. (Let alone Lucy and the other B-listers.)

It's like, say, Tiger Woods (he's still a good golfer, right? I don't follow sports) get time warped 7 years in the future. Sure, new players may have risen to his level - but he'll still be a goddamn good golfer.
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Old 2011-11-11, 11:35   Link #6788
White Silver King
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This all of a sudden makes it seem like magic is some kind of technology that increases over time.
It does grow over time. With maturity and experience your magic becomes more powerful, that's common sense.

I don't understand why you guys don't get people can beat Natsu now. Fairy was the strongest guild in Fiore, it lost it's rep because it' core members disappeared but everyone (with very few exceptions) in FT is strong. When you take that high strength and give it 7 years to grow while the others don't grow at all in power during this time it makes sense they are stronger or as strong as the core members now. To be honest, without plot-no-jutsu, Natsu is not that strong (as was made evident for the thousandth time this chapter).

Quote:
- FT's the worst guild in Fiore.
Only in reputation. Erza herself said this chapter the remaining FT members were more than capable of taking out Twilight Ogre so they're obviously not the weakest, just honorable. See my above point for elaboration.

Quote:
- He made it sound like everyone became so much stronger the Natsu's just... "meh", now. (Let alone Lucy and the other B-listers.)
May have just been the trans, but I wouldn't disagree with it for reasons I've stated mulitple times.

Quote:
It's like, say, Tiger Woods (he's still a good golfer, right? I don't follow sports) get time warped 7 years in the future. Sure, new players may have risen to his level - but he'll still be a goddamn good golfer.
Yes, he would still be a good golfer as Natsu is still a powerful mage. But Natsu has been stuck with his face in dirt for these last 7 years while already moderately powerful members of FT (the former strongest guild) have had 7 years to train - I think you're seriously under estimating how long that is especially with the lack of jobs meaning that had loads of time to train. Look at it like this: Makarov is an extremely powerful mage but got pwned by Hades. Does that make Makarov "meh"? Hell no it doesn't; it just means Hades, who was already a powerful mage, has had more time to train and grow in power. The same is going on here.

Quote:
Natsu doesn't need lightning and the battle with Max makes no sense. Natsu was suppossedly #1 at his age and even if others now equal his years of experience he should have been able to edge them out, without resorting to hidden annoying canon breaking technique. I hope it is explained later by the author, or better translation(it's probably the author though).
It makes perfect sense, and obviously he did need it. He was #1 at his age but, like I've been saying, he's not grown in power these 7 years while powerful mages have had all that time to train. Natsu shouldn't be able to touch them, as was made perfectly clear by Mashima's need to give Natsu some wtf lightning power-up in a friendly fight (I honestly believe he physically can't let Natsu lose). It's already been explained by the author and by me.
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Old 2011-11-11, 11:55   Link #6789
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The most interesting in this chapter is there's finally a semi-confirmation that Porlyusica is Grandine. If that's the case, it means dragons can take on human form, which opens up another huge can of worms.
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:09   Link #6790
immblueversion
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I'm also betting that Natsu's lightning powers are just the leftovers from his last meal, considering how he noted how much weaker it was than last time.

Spoiler for Chapter 259:
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:15   Link #6791
Etheral
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@white silver king

you don't get it. Read Ann Minh's comment that is what we're saying. Sure you improve, but in his peer group he was still the best. He has the body and experience of let's say a 15 year old when he's really chronologically 22 or something. But at his level against what are now 15 years old's he should still wipe the floor with them, he was supposedly the #1 person at his age group in Fiore at the time. So a timeskip facing what are biologically the same people means he should be edging them out.

Next the technology comment is completely legitimate. Magic/Life force energy is trained. That doesn't mean that ten years later all of a sudden humans use their Magic/Life force energy like a 2.0 version of everything. Individually as time progresses they get better, but age-wise, 16 year old from the past should be exactly just as relevant and = to 16 of future. Now you can say they discovered a few things, like improving techniques across the board just a little bit maybe, but you got what you got. Not like in technology where memory capabilities and chip production make for increasingly smaller and faster computing machines.

Even if you're saying the others were good prospects too. They should get edged out, but it should be close without having to resort to lightning fire technique. The author could have made his point without having to do that. It's never stated how they train, or what they need to do to train besides a class they took. Also something like that would seriously need to be mentioned more than, it's been 7 years. Also saying they trained harder than Natsu, whose only goal is to become strongest and hundreds of times tries to be throughout the manga just won't make sense to me.

And if you read it again, he did lose to max on the color page. That was the re-match.

I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this because I think we won't be changing our stances anytime soon.
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:36   Link #6792
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^ wait i don't get it. Yeah he may still be good, but 7 years of not training is gonna leave someone rusty compared to 7 years of someone else having trained. Even though it may have only felt like a week to Natsu and them, it was still 7 years. Ann Minh mentioned the Tiger Woods reference, but ask any sports player and if they don't use their body in a while, it can take a while to get back into it while others have gotten better. Its a pretty simple idea actually.

Anyway, this chapter was kinda stupid. I gotta stop reading them and just read wikipedia. I still don't get the lightning powers, sad that Natsu still had to win, sad Gildarts left and Markarov is master again since i wanted some change, sad Laxus is immediately back in the guild so easily, but he seems okay, and sad i don't even have a clue what the storyline for this arc is.

But i do like all the new clothes everyone has
And interested in the Grandeeny thing and whatever it was the guild was talking about.

oh and loved that pic of the colored Natsu and Lucy in the first page.
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:37   Link #6793
White Silver King
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you don't get it.[...]
I understand perfectly well, but I've told you why you're wrong. These aren't toddlers beating Natsu, they are mages who were strong years ago and have had 7 years to train farther. You are seriously underestimating not only how long 7 years is but the effects of training in and of itself. Yes, Natsu was the strongest and is still strong, but just because you used to be the strongest doesn't mean you always will be. Is a high schooler at the top of his class that falls into a coma for seven years going to know all the things his classmates learned these 7 years and do it better just because he was better than them nearly a decade ago as soon as he wakes up? No, that's ridiculous. I'm not saying their magic has grown to "2.0 all the sudden." As you said yourself, maigc is trained and that's exactly what they've been doing for close to 10 years. Had this been a year or maybe even a 2 year time-skip, I would agree with you. But seven years? Natsu should have gotten his ass handed to him even more than he already did (without the lightning, of course, because that's just bs). No one should be getting "edged out." And I don't mean to come off rude, but I find it very difficult to debate this with you when you don't offer any real evidence, especially from the manga, you pretty much just keep repeating that Natsu should win like it's nothing without any real proof - please include some in your next response if you decide to respond so I can understand your position better.

Quote:
And interested in the Grandeeny thing and whatever it was the guild was talking about.
Me too. I think it's definitely a magic tournament. Why else would Romeo say it could boost them to being considered the number 1 guild super quick, and Macao said "they would never participate in that." Sounds like a tournment or some kind of Mage Games to me - which I look forward to since we kinda got cheated out of that with the S-Class arc.
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:37   Link #6794
Miles Teg
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Originally Posted by Etheral View Post
@white silver king

you don't get it. Read Ann Minh's comment that is what we're saying. Sure you improve, but in his peer group he was still the best. He has the body and experience of let's say a 15 year old when he's really chronologically 22 or something. But at his level against what are now 15 years old's he should still wipe the floor with them, he was supposedly the #1 person at his age group in Fiore at the time. So a timeskip facing what are biologically the same people means he should be edging them out.

Next the technology comment is completely legitimate. Magic/Life force energy is trained. That doesn't mean that ten years later all of a sudden humans use their Magic/Life force energy like a 2.0 version of everything. Individually as time progresses they get better, but age-wise, 16 year old from the past should be exactly just as relevant and = to 16 of future. Now you can say they discovered a few things, like improving techniques across the board just a little bit maybe, but you got what you got. Not like in technology where memory capabilities and chip production make for increasingly smaller and faster computing machines.

Even if you're saying the others were good prospects too. They should get edged out, but it should be close without having to resort to lightning fire technique. The author could have made his point without having to do that. It's never stated how they train, or what they need to do to train besides a class they took. Also something like that would seriously need to be mentioned more than, it's been 7 years.

And if you read it again, he did lose to max on the color page. That was the re-match.

I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this because I think we won't be changing our stances anytime soon.
A 17(?) years old Natsu was stronger than a 17 years old Max.
A 17(?) years old Natsu is weaker than a 24 years old Max.

Sorry but I don't see where the problem is, or you are saying that the gap between Natsu and Max was really that big or that Max shouldn't have become better with time
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:45   Link #6795
Etheral
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Originally Posted by Miles Teg View Post
A 17(?) years old Natsu was stronger than a 17 years old Max.
A 17(?) years old Natsu is weaker than a 24 years old Max.

Sorry but I don't see where the problem is, or you are saying that the gap between Natsu and Max was really that big or that Max shouldn't have become better with time
I'm simply saying Natsu is supposed to be best in his age group before skip. His skill hasn't changed but Max just reached NATSU"S age group now. Max should definitely tire him out and be somewhat of a challenge, but the gap is supposed to be big because Natsu is 1.) a dragonslayer, 2.) was the best for his age. and, 3.) a new generation of people should not mean automatically better or somehow more of a challenge than the last.

17 year old Natsu (best in his age group) beats 10 year old Max easily
Timeskip: 17 year old Natsu edges out (best in his age group) but is tired after barely beating 17 year old Max But should not require fire/lightning attack.

So unless Max is even older than Natsu, then I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:51   Link #6796
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So dragons has disguise themselves as humans

Gildarts just want to be a playboy for life
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:55   Link #6797
Etheral
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So dragons has disguise themselves as humans

Gildarts just want to be a playboy for life
That is so true.

Unless he's going on some fact finding mission which I really doubt. I guess it would be too easy to be number one with Gildarts doing all the wins himself.
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Old 2011-11-11, 12:56   Link #6798
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natsu being able to use lightning? how is that possible? the last time he did that he got it from laxus, how did he steal lightning this time? anyone care to explain? maybe i just missed something.
People seem to forget, Natsu is a mage, his magic is something he was taught. He's neither bound to fire magic, nor his existing skill set. It's entirely reasonable for him to learn something new. In this particular case it would seem that after having used Laxus's magic (including his DS magic) for himself, Natsu figured out how to duplicate the effects it added to his magic, though doing so was more tiring than he expected.

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Originally Posted by Etheral View Post
I'm simply saying Natsu is supposed to be best in his age group before skip. His skill hasn't changed but Max just reached NATSU"S age group now. Max should definitely tire him out and be somewhat of a challenge, but the gap is supposed to be big because Natsu is 1.) a dragonslayer, 2.) was the best for his age. and, 3.) a new generation of people should not mean automatically better or somehow more of a challenge than the last.

17 year old Natsu (best in his age group) beats 10 year old Max easily
Timeskip: 17 year old Natsu edges out (best in his age group) but is tired after barely beating 17 year old Max

So unless Max is even older than Natsu, then I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.
It's hard to grasp because you're making no sense. This is Max:

http://fairytail.wikia.com/wiki/Max

Before the timeskip he was 17 and significantly below the presumably 18 year old Natsu. Now he is 24 and has spent the last 7 years increasing in strength and closing the gap, whereas Natsu is still the same 18 year old. Talking about a ten year old Max compared to a pre-time skip Natsu makes no sense because we've never seen Max at age 10.
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:13   Link #6799
Anh_Minh
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The problem isn't that Max somehow became stronger than Natsu. It's that his strength is presented as nothing special in what became the weakest guild around. He was basically a mook before the timeskip, and he's still a mook now - but the everyone's power became such that Natsu's weaker than that. Which shouldn't have happened in seven piddly years (remember that at the time, the Salamander was known and feared by mages of all ages, not just teenagers). It'd be like saying the average player of 2011's NBA is much stronger than the average player of 2004's player. That, in fact, the average player of 2011 is at the level of of 2004's B-list stars. Admittedly, I don't follow Basket either, but I don't think the game's changed that much in seven years.
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:14   Link #6800
Etheral
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
People seem to forget, Natsu is a mage, his magic is something he was taught. He's neither bound to fire magic, nor his existing skill set. It's entirely reasonable for him to learn something new. In this particular case it would seem that after having used Laxus's magic (including his DS magic) for himself, Natsu figured out how to duplicate the effects it added to his magic, though doing so was more tiring than he expected.



It's hard to grasp because you're making no sense. This is Max:

http://fairytail.wikia.com/wiki/Max

Before the timeskip he was 17 and significantly below the presumably 18 year old Natsu. Now he is 24 and has spent the last 7 years increasing in strength and closing the gap, whereas Natsu is still the same 18 year old. Talking about a ten year old Max compared to a pre-time skip Natsu makes no sense because we've never seen Max at age 10.
Thanks, I wasn't sure about the age difference. It makes a lot more sense now. I thought Max was some kid and now they were both reaching the same age. Well I guess I'm wrong LOL. Still Natsu is supposed to be best in a lot of ways though. I guess because it's a Fairy Tail guild member training more years than Natsu I'll take it. But Max should be considered a great and powerful mage then compared to other mages. Just like Ann Minh is pointing out.
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