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Old 2011-11-12, 03:51   Link #6821
Casshern
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About Natsu being the top-dog 7 years ago and being just "average" now, specifically why didn't any other older and more experienced mages wipe the floor with him back then, it could simply be that the previous generation didn't produce that many particularly powerful mages.

Also, the basketball comparison isn't a solid example. Basketball is a real-life sport. It has rules that don't change (much) over time, and there's only so much that the human body is physically capable of. Magic is fiction, the rules aren't set in stone, new magic is developed, ancient magic is rediscovered etc etc. Is there any reason why every new generation should not be more powerful than the previous, or that the average level could not rise and fall in cycles?
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Old 2011-11-12, 05:47   Link #6822
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@Casshern

7 years is not enough time to talk about "generations".
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Old 2011-11-12, 05:59   Link #6823
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It might be, if we're talking about DS. Old-gen like the three in FT, new-gen like Luxus and Cobra, and these new guys we don't know anything about...anyways, I say give it an actual fight to see what's really going on.
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Old 2011-11-12, 06:24   Link #6824
Casshern
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@Casshern

7 years is not enough time to talk about "generations".
I'm not talking about 7 years in particular. I'm talking about any older and more experienced mage, such as Macao and Wakaba. I'm saying there could be a reason why hardly any older guys could hold a candle to Natsu & co, and one reason could be that every generation gets stronger, or that this generation in particular is stronger. If anything, the biggest presumption we're making is that everyone's growth will be comparable to Max's, when it's likely that only a handful of guilds have members with this kind of potential i.e FT, Lamia, Pegasus etc.
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Old 2011-11-12, 07:24   Link #6825
hyl
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Example of what i call Max weak, he lost to Warren in the Laxus arc: someone with telepathy powers. Now they are trying to convince me that someone of his calibur is on par with Natsu. Even if he has a huge potential, that also means that there are people out there with an even bigger potential than he has.
The biggest problem seems that when Max had the upperhand, the other post time skip members started to think that they could take on Natsu as well. Meaning that Max is not that strong.
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Old 2011-11-12, 09:37   Link #6826
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I think you guys are over reacting about that small fight. For one, Natsu was getting stronger with each fight and if you compare him from the first chapter till now, there is a huge power difference. And only more than a year had passed. Natsu was no match to Erza but now he might be even stronger so saying that Max powered up too fast is wrong. If Natsu could power up so much in 1 year, I don't see a problem of Max getting to his level in 7 years especially since Natsu stood on place the last 7 years.

Talking about Jellal, if you consider the fact that every enemy Natsu fought was stronger than previouse one, then Jellal is pretty weak and I wouldn't be surprised if someone from this time could power match with him 7 years ago.

And don't forget the most important fact, Natsu did nothing those 7 years while everyone trained hard. If he were to train too, he would be a power monster right now.

And another thing, Natsu fighting with his team mates is totally different from him fighting with the enemy. With the enemy he is not afraid to use the most powerful attacks and go for the kill and he usually power ups while being angry. None of that happened here in this fight. Natsu didn't go all out at Max, if he were, he would win.


About Porlyusica beeing Grandine... I'm not really surprised. Just think about it, she always states that she hates humans so being not a human is a good explenation to why. She always seemed to have knowledge and magic that no one else does.

About reputation rise... I expect them to practicipate in some tournament. If that's the case then I hope it won't be one sided where the main cast wins all the fights.
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Old 2011-11-12, 10:00   Link #6827
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Talking about Jellal, if you consider the fact that every enemy Natsu fought was stronger than previouse one, then Jellal is pretty weak and I wouldn't be surprised if someone from this time could power match with him 7 years ago.
Jellal was one of the strongest mages in Fiore, because he was member of the 10 wizard saints. He was beaten by Natsu by a plotkai powerup, but nonetheless he is more powerfull than most of the opponents that Natsu fought besides Zero and Hades. You are pretty much saying that the entire world is now as strong as one of the strongest mages in Fiore 7 years ago.

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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
And don't forget the most important fact, Natsu did nothing those 7 years while everyone trained hard. If he were to train too, he would be a power monster right now.
That was not my point, my point was if Max (an underdog in the guild) is now as strong as Natsu in the S-rank arc, then by comparison pretty much the majority of the world is as strong as Cobra from Oracion Seis or Zancrow from Grimoire Heart (those 2 people could individually take on single guilds by themselves). They overwhelmed Natsu in pretty much the same level as Max is showing now and all 3 cases Natsu won by some random powerup.

edit: I really doubt that 7 years would have made someone who was that weak before that strong now or else the world is getting really overpowered like the dragonball z syndrome. In fact why wasn't there a huge powergap with the previous generation of mages?

Last edited by hyl; 2011-11-12 at 10:12.
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Old 2011-11-12, 12:42   Link #6828
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^I was never really impressed with Jellal's power and found nothing uber strong about him.

You have never done any sports, have you?
Ok, I'll put myself as example. I personally am doing judo and there was time when I was injured for several years and couldn't train properly. Once I got back into it, the majority of my sparing partners was overhelming me in strengh. However, in less than a year I was actually able to stand on equel ground with some of them and even was able to win sometimes. Not that often but it is more than 0. There were those against whom I still couldn't win but it did not stop them from considering me as a worthy opponent at that stage. They still were stronger but I managed to improve a lot and our strengh difference had decreased significantly. And I didn't even train as hard as them. If I were to train on same level as them, I would've been even better at that point.

If I could catch up in less than a year with some of proffesional sportists, I really don't see a reason as of why Max could not in 7 years while Natsu remained static.
And your logic is off too. Just because Max progressed so much doesn't mean that others also did. People can train the same amount of time but progress on different speed, it depends on what you are capable of. And since the strongest guild members were gone, the rest had to work even harder to not fall completly while other guilds and mages kept the same progression pace.
Besides Max could have always had potential but since there were other strong members, he never really tried before. But now that everyone were gone, he actually had to train and improve instead of slacking off like usual.
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Old 2011-11-12, 12:49   Link #6829
hyl
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I would still say it's a matter of talent and potential. No matter how much i train, i am unable to beat olympic level opponents at running. My time will never be close as those of the olympic level regardless if it were athlethes from this time or 20 years ago.

I would not call it a stretch to compare Natsu an opponent of an Olympic level and the pre timeskip Max someone who is a casual sporter. Natsu was really strong 7 years ago.

edit: Jellal was weakened because his other half was hurt by Erza before he was a whole being again. The other time we see him at his true strength, he lost his memories and he nearly suicided to prevent Brain getting Nirvana. After that he was severly weakened again in the rest of the Oracion Seis arc.

edit2: Jellal may look weak due the fact that he was introduced in the series very early compared to the later villains.
But that is like calling Misaka from To aru Majutsu no Index weak, because some of the other level 5 espers that were introduced later in the story seems stronger than her feat wise. But that's mostly the fault of introducing the no.3 esper right at the start of a story.

Last edited by hyl; 2011-11-12 at 13:06.
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Old 2011-11-12, 13:43   Link #6830
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True that but as I said you don't know how much potential Max has. He could've been just a slacker 7 years ago who didn't bother much while having potential in him. But now once everyone were gone, he actually had to do something and improve and his potential had kicked in.
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Old 2011-11-12, 13:48   Link #6831
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
^I was never really impressed with Jellal's power and found nothing uber strong about him.

You have never done any sports, have you?
Ok, I'll put myself as example. I personally am doing judo and there was time when I was injured for several years and couldn't train properly. Once I got back into it, the majority of my sparing partners was overhelming me in strengh. However, in less than a year I was actually able to stand on equel ground with some of them and even was able to win sometimes. Not that often but it is more than 0. There were those against whom I still couldn't win but it did not stop them from considering me as a worthy opponent at that stage. They still were stronger but I managed to improve a lot and our strengh difference had decreased significantly. And I didn't even train as hard as them. If I were to train on same level as them, I would've been even better at that point.

If I could catch up in less than a year with some of proffesional sportists, I really don't see a reason as of why Max could not in 7 years while Natsu remained static.
And your logic is off too. Just because Max progressed so much doesn't mean that others also did. People can train the same amount of time but progress on different speed, it depends on what you are capable of. And since the strongest guild members were gone, the rest had to work even harder to not fall completly while other guilds and mages kept the same progression pace.
Besides Max could have always had potential but since there were other strong members, he never really tried before. But now that everyone were gone, he actually had to train and improve instead of slacking off like usual.
As I said, the problem isn't just Max catching up to Natsu. It's that, strong as he is now, he's nothing special in the weakest guild in Fiore (as shown by the attitude of his friends, and to a point, his own). The guild that can't even outperform those losers at Twilight Ogre.
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Old 2011-11-12, 14:02   Link #6832
hyl
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
As I said, the problem isn't just Max catching up to Natsu. It's that, strong as he is now, he's nothing special in the weakest guild in Fiore (as shown by the attitude of his friends, and to a point, his own). The guild that can't even outperform those losers at Twilight Ogre.
Actually they can beat Twilight Ogre, as said in the manga they didn't do it because they owned them too much money

agreed with Anh on that the other guildmembers don't think that max is special. Saying that they might being able to take on Natsu is suggesting that they are all not that much weaker than Max
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Old 2011-11-12, 14:18   Link #6833
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Huh, the author didn't cop out by having the MCs still be super powerful. And I love that. I mean, it's been 7 years, of course everyone else is going to me much stronger.
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Old 2011-11-12, 14:22   Link #6834
hyl
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Huh, the author didn't cop out by having the MCs still be super powerful. And I love that. I mean, it's been 7 years, of course everyone else is going to me much stronger.
That's not always the case. A classic example would be the transition of Dragonball to Dragonball z. In all of these years, none of the characters has gotten much stronger.
Also after the Cell arc and before the Buu arc everyone has not gotten too much stronger besides Goku. I am pretty sure characters like Vegata and Picollo are the types that would train immensely, but they have reached their limit before any true powerups.
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Old 2011-11-12, 15:14   Link #6835
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Old 2011-11-12, 15:28   Link #6836
Anh_Minh
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Actually they can beat Twilight Ogre, as said in the manga they didn't do it because they owned them too much money
And why did they owe money? Because TO could do the jobs that FT couldn't.
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Old 2011-11-12, 15:36   Link #6837
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And why did they owe money? Because TO could do the jobs that FT couldn't.
No really. Without their core members, FT would not GET requests. Would you send your request to a guild who's core members AND master have gone missing for over 1 year? TO had more member who could take on jobs. Also, without the S mages, FT could not get S class quests, and those bring the real money.

TL;DR: Without the master and the core members, trust in FT was gone, and they didn't get any quests.
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Old 2011-11-12, 15:42   Link #6838
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Note however, that most of the job money went to cover the destruction that FT core members left in their wake; did you already forget Natsu bringing down mansions, a freakin' tower of lacryma,etc., or the fact that Magnolia has to enter "Gildartz mode" so as not to get destroyed everytime Gildartz walks by? They also had to rebuild the guild once...so, without having to cover for these expenses, their budget should be estimated a lot lower than before.
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Old 2011-11-12, 15:44   Link #6839
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So 7 years later, mooks are what was known as borderline S-class level...

Okay, we got the point, while they were away, others did their things and improved, but there are ways to put it ... This is pathetic writing.

Not that it matters, it was just to show people who were nobodies could have worked their way to the top. The fact Mashima made it like it was the mook level that rised to borderline S-class is just because he can't write.
I assume that part of the chapter was in preparation of the encounter with the 2 DS (who probably ranked even lower than Grandine's apprentice Wendy at the time) and that it won't be mentioned ever again.
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Old 2011-11-12, 15:46   Link #6840
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I don't know... Makarov said the guild was to be taken back, so maybe they were still paying for it. At least that's how I see it. Don't really get HOW they were going to take the building back, especially with what was under it, but whatever.
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