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Old 2012-05-14, 01:10   Link #8241
Qilin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krono View Post
The thing is, it's one thing to be told that failure isn't tolerated, is punished, and can result in being expelled from the guild. It's another to be given an extremely humiliating punishment for failure, then be thrown out on top of it. Sting thought what happened to Yukino was extreme, and it had Rogue questioning whether this was what a guild was supposed to be like. Their reactions suggest that neither being force to strip before the guild, nor being expelled for the first failure, is a typical, ordinary thing at Sabertooth. So they're unlikely to be telling new members they're orienting that they'll be striped naked and expelled from the guild the first time they screw up.

So Yukino expected punishment, knew expulsion was one of the possible punishments. She did not expect to be expelled for a first offense, nor was she prepared for how deliberately degrading the punishment was. Or the way Gemma handed out said punishment as though he wasn't going to expel her, then went ahead and expelled her.
Yukino staked her life, and then she lost. It was not simply failing the guild that led to her expulsion. To add insult to injury, her opponent spared her life even after making such a bet. Her case is special, so you shouldn't compare it with typical cases. Still, it was quite an embarassment for the guild, I'd say.

Whatever the case, there's no question that the punishment was extreme. No doubt that the guild's philosophy isn't as internalized in its members as it should be, but it is still a matter that should be settled internally. The only people who have any right to question the practices and ideals of the guild are its own members. In contrast, Natsu is just an outsider trying to uphold what he thinks is right without knowing anything. This incident is making me hate his character much more.

It was fine when he was dealing with villains determined to threaten the world's stability, but why can't he just leave guilds to their own affairs? Why does he have to take a moral high ground?

Anyway, the best answer to this dilemma without resorting to force (like Natsu) is to defeat Sabertooth in the tournament. That is probably the best way to crumble their guild philosophy.
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Old 2012-05-14, 02:40   Link #8242
Randrak42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Yukino staked her life, and then she lost. It was not simply failing the guild that led to her expulsion. To add insult to injury, her opponent spared her life even after making such a bet. Her case is special, so you shouldn't compare it with typical cases. Still, it was quite an embarassment for the guild, I'd say.

Whatever the case, there's no question that the punishment was extreme. No doubt that the guild's philosophy isn't as internalized in its members as it should be, but it is still a matter that should be settled internally. The only people who have any right to question the practices and ideals of the guild are its own members. In contrast, Natsu is just an outsider trying to uphold what he thinks is right without knowing anything. This incident is making me hate his character much more.

It was fine when he was dealing with villains determined to threaten the world's stability, but why can't he just leave guilds to their own affairs? Why does he have to take a moral high ground?

Anyway, the best answer to this dilemma without resorting to force (like Natsu) is to defeat Sabertooth in the tournament. That is probably the best way to crumble their guild philosophy.
Simple...Natsu is a good person that saw a nice girl desperate and crying over an humiliating event. He is straightforward and not too bright so he acted upon what he thought was right. He acted against an action even ST members thought were wrong. Is it wrong to just burst in making a scene of things? Yes, I cheered and thought it was awesome, but it was certainly NOT the best course of action...and I think everyone agrees (we cheer because it was an awesome scene and typical Natsu, not because it was the smart thing to do) and he should have handled it another way.

If that makes you hate the character...then so be it, it's you opinion. You should know how Natsu acts by now, 282 chapters and this is typical Natsu. If you hate him because of this then I'm actually surprised you don't hate him already because it's standard procedure for him.
I don't deny that he is imposing his ideals onto another guild, however he is also acting upon witnessing how distraught the victim was, regardless of her being at fault for joining the guild in the first place or not (which I still believe she isn't).

You asked if someone joining FT expecting it to be a brute guild aimed at destruction was at fault...
Pre-timeskip, FT was known for making a mess of things and acting violently. A person joining knowing this is not really at fault for being ignorant, you can't really know a guild (aside from basic "is it a dark guild or not?" and basic public knowledge) until after you join it. That person WOULD be at fault if he stayed in the guild and acted unnecessarily violent even after figuring out how it works.
Yukino was a new member, its doubtful that she knew about how extreme the guild would be before joining and like Krono said, it is unlikely for a guild to go "Hey, you'll be humiliated in very harsh ways if you fail." once someone joins...at most they might have explained that failure means expulsion...not that it means expulsion AND humiliation. Again, remember that she was a recent member.

Would I join a religion I don't believe in? No, but neither did Yukino. She joined a guild she idolized...it's the same as me joining a religion I believe in but only have public knowledge of its actions.
Now, if I join a religion which I believe in but after a while I learn that they secretly, let's say...make human sacrifices! I would attempt to leave (a religious group like this wouldn't let me but this is irrelevant xD) but again, did Yukino know about the extreme actions of the master? If she did know how far he could take his punishments then even I would feel less sorry for her...because she was stupid in staying and left open to receive the same punishment...but I highly doubt a new member like her knew about it at all.
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Old 2012-05-14, 04:39   Link #8243
Qilin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Simple...Natsu is a good person that saw a nice girl desperate and crying over an humiliating event. He is straightforward and not too bright so he acted upon what he thought was right. He acted against an action even ST members thought were wrong. Is it wrong to just burst in making a scene of things? Yes, I cheered and thought it was awesome, but it was certainly NOT the best course of action...and I think everyone agrees (we cheer because it was an awesome scene and typical Natsu, not because it was the smart thing to do) and he should have handled it another way.

If that makes you hate the character...then so be it, it's you opinion. You should know how Natsu acts by now, 282 chapters and this is typical Natsu. If you hate him because of this then I'm actually surprised you don't hate him already because it's standard procedure for him.
I don't deny that he is imposing his ideals onto another guild, however he is also acting upon witnessing how distraught the victim was, regardless of her being at fault for joining the guild in the first place or not (which I still believe she isn't).
Yeah. I know what you mean. I really can't expect the entire genre to pay attention to the muddled world of moral relativity. However, this is an incident I simply could not ignore, seeing Natsu overstep his bounds to that extent. But believe me, this the first time a situation of this nature occurred. Before, Natsu was just a boring character. Now, he's just outright distasteful. His invasiveness really made me cringe there. Well, anyway, if I expected Natsu to respect social boundaries, I would be dead mistaken, but I believed there were limitations to it at least.

A great thing he could do when he gets stronger is to beat up every single guild he doesn't agree with since that's basically what he did there. It only works since we're we're assured beforehand that Natsu's side is "right".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
You asked if someone joining FT expecting it to be a brute guild aimed at destruction was at fault...
Pre-timeskip, FT was known for making a mess of things and acting violently. A person joining knowing this is not really at fault for being ignorant, you can't really know a guild (aside from basic "is it a dark guild or not?" and basic public knowledge) until after you join it. That person WOULD be at fault if he stayed in the guild and acted unnecessarily violent even after figuring out how it works.
Yukino was a new member, its doubtful that she knew about how extreme the guild would be before joining and like Krono said, it is unlikely for a guild to go "Hey, you'll be humiliated in very harsh ways if you fail." once someone joins...at most they might have explained that failure means expulsion...not that it means expulsion AND humiliation. Again, remember that she was a recent member.

Would I join a religion I don't believe in? No, but neither did Yukino. She joined a guild she idolized...it's the same as me joining a religion I believe in but only have public knowledge of its actions.
Now, if I join a religion which I believe in but after a while I learn that they secretly, let's say...make human sacrifices! I would attempt to leave (a religious group like this wouldn't let me but this is irrelevant xD) but again, did Yukino know about the extreme actions of the master? If she did know how far he could take his punishments then even I would feel less sorry for her...because she was stupid in staying and left open to receive the same punishment...but I highly doubt a new member like her knew about it at all.
This is the source of disagreement for us.

You're undervaluing the weight of the decision making process that goes into joining a guild. To you, it's a rather trivial decision akin to finding out what to eat for lunch while to me, it is a commitment that should only be made after making an informed decision. Is joining a guild really not a big deal after all? It seems like you can join any guild that passes your fancy. I didn't think all guilds were as laidback as FT in that respect. Do they really have no way of filtering potential members before awarding them the honor of joining a guild?

Even if you're saying she was ignorant for her entire stay in the guild, it doesn't matter. Like I said, it's an internal matter that should be resolved internally. Sabertooth is doing nothing to threaten the other guilds or society at large so they deserve to that luxury at the very least. Not only were Natsu's actions appalling, they were downright criminal.

Let me clarify something for you. You don't join a religion just by knowing its public actions. You have to internalize every single aspect of its philosophy. You either you believe it, or you don't. That's the thing. Joining a religion isn't a simple matter of "I like what you're doing, so I'll join you". Join a charity if that's the kind of thing you're after, but that kind of reason for joining a religion is stupid, plain and simple. A religion is all about a community sharing a single philosophy while in pursuit of some higher goal. Even if human sacrifice comes it up, it wouldn't matter if you've completely internalized the religion's philosophy.

The crux of our disgreement here is that you treat Yukino's ignorance as inevitable while I treat it as outright stupidity. There's really no way as of yet to tell it from the other, so I propose that we should just agree to disagree for now.
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Old 2012-05-14, 04:53   Link #8244
Randrak42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
The crux of our disgreement here is that you treat Yukino's ignorance as inevitable while I treat it as outright stupidity. There's really no way as of yet to tell it from the other, so I propose that we should just agree to disagree for now.
I was about to propose the same thing as I read your post to be honest. We have different opinions and that doesn't seem to be changing any time soon so further discussion on the topic is pointless (a lesson some people should learn...).
It was, however, entertaining.
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Old 2012-05-14, 11:23   Link #8245
Spinell
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Hmm, Gemma speech reminded me of Laxus when he tried to create his strongest Fairy Tail.
Sabertooth might be pretty close to what Laxus guild might have looked like.
So thats what i think the Natsu x Gemma fight will go like: Gemma flattens Natsu and kicks out almost all the guildmembers because they couldn't deal with Natsu on their own.
Rogue might point out this is ridiculous and quits himself (or at least comes close to quitting himself).
The chapter might end funny with the appearance of Minerva (at last) the next morning wondering where everyone went.
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Old 2012-05-14, 11:26   Link #8246
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Spinell View Post
Hmm, Gemma speech reminded me of Laxus when he tried to create his strongest Fairy Tail.
Sabertooth might be pretty close to what Laxus guild might have looked like.
So thats what i think the Natsu x Gemma fight will go like: Gemma flattens Natsu and kicks out almost all the guildmembers because they couldn't deal with Natsu on their own.
Rogue might point out this is ridiculous and quits himself (or at least comes close to quitting himself).
The chapter might end funny with the appearance of Minerva (at last) the next morning wondering where everyone went.
ST is exactly how FT would have been had Laxus become GM.
Keeping this in mind, it would actually be quite entertaining to have Laxus fight Genma instead xD
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Old 2012-05-14, 11:49   Link #8247
DarkSkiper
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Gemma: I created the strongest guild!
Laxus: That's my idea....
Gemma: Eh? So what?
Laxus: "Fairy Law"! *Light shines*
Gemma half-dead: ...
Laxus: Damn poser...

But seriously now that you pointed it out, I really do see SaberTooth = Fairy Tail(with Laxus as Master).
Well that was before now he seems more level-headed as Gajeel pointed out.
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Old 2012-05-14, 13:47   Link #8248
Tempest35
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Lesson learned: Read the fine print, or end up like Yukino.

All in all, there are merits to both Randrak's and Qilin's viewpoints since essentially both of them were addressed. It's the reason why a lot of people, while they applaud Natsu for the reason why he's crashing Sabertooth's hotel, also want to see him stopped because it really isn't none of his business and he can't go imposing like that on other people, no matter how much they might need it. Free Will is a b**** sometimes...

In Natsu's eyes, a Guild exists because of the People in it - People don't exist to make a Guild, which is what Laxus saw before and what Genma sees now. Two viewpoints are clashing and whoever has more power to back up their claim will get the upper hand. Does it make it right? No, but then again, 'power' never cares what side it's on, it is only used.
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Old 2012-05-14, 14:38   Link #8249
Bonta Kun
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Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Lesson learned: Read the fine print, or end up like Yukino.
Problem with this is I highly doubt there is any fine print to read, we can't honestly expect Sabertooth to advertise themselves as powerful but total assholes now can we?

I would bet there are plenty of stuff floating the rumor mill but people wouldn't know how SB really deal with stuff until they are part of the guild or witness it first hand.

We might not be able to throw our exact moral values on the story but we can throw some of it on.
And Yukino's treatment is where I see it perfectly thing to throw some at cause if we didn't then the FT world would really be a pretty shitty place to live, if something like that is considered fine/acceptable.
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Old 2012-05-14, 15:06   Link #8250
sergel02
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lol reading these posts, i can see now why this chapter alone has a 43 page thread over at onemanga.
I like that people are discussing these sorts of things tho.
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Old 2012-05-14, 20:26   Link #8251
Tempest35
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Originally Posted by Bonta Kun View Post
Problem with this is I highly doubt there is any fine print to read, we can't honestly expect Sabertooth to advertise themselves as powerful but total assholes now can we?

I would bet there are plenty of stuff floating the rumor mill but people wouldn't know how SB really deal with stuff until they are part of the guild or witness it first hand.

We might not be able to throw our exact moral values on the story but we can throw some of it on.
And Yukino's treatment is where I see it perfectly thing to throw some at cause if we didn't then the FT world would really be a pretty shitty place to live, if something like that is considered fine/acceptable.
Yeah, only a few (dark) guilds would pass themselves off as being utter assholes and still get away with it, so to speak. And really, Natsu's reaction to Yukino's treatment brings up another point too - if Natsu didn't care enough, who would have? How many times have people failed to see someone - anyone - who was hurting and did not have the courage to go find out what happened? True it wasn't Natsu's intention to learn the circumstances of Yukino's expulsion from SaberTooth but once he did find out, he took action on it immediately. Sure, it might not have been the best course of action but it's far from being the worst...

~*~

Natsu: "What kind of guild are you!? What kind of friends are you!? She lost one battle - ONE! And you throw her away like garbage!?"

Sting: "What are you talking about? Friends? Comrades? Who needs such things! We're the strongest - we don't need friends!"

Natsu: "They why bother even calling yourselves a guild!? Everyone in a guild is suppopse to be a friend - even if you don't get along! These are the people that you're suppose to help out! The ones you're suppose to trust to have your back! The ones who give you a family to come back to!!

Sting: "Hah! So says someone from the weakest guild in Fiore! They didn't do anything at all for 7 years! They lost everything just because you losers were too weak to fight a dragon!"

Natsu: "WE AREN'T WEAK AT ALL!! Our guild members that stuck around, that endured all of that BS for 7 freakin' years - You guys couldn't even last through 6 MONTHS OF THAT! Who's WEAK!? Could you say that even one of your comrades would believe in you!? Can you say that any of them would trust you to return, even if you didn't!?"

Sting: "...Like I need something like that! I don't need to be liked, I don't need to be trusted. My power gives me all that I need! I'm a true Dragon Slayer, you 1st Gen weakling!"

Natsu: "Fine then...I'll show you...the power that you'd never be able to obtain...the power that will crush you and your stupid ideals!"

Sting: "Bring it on, weakling. You're in MY house now, and you're all alone."

Natsu: *smirks* "Oh really?"

*many approachign steps are heard*

Erza: "Unfortunately for you, he is NOT alone..."

Gray: "...like it or not, he's a member of our team..."

Lucy: "And he's a member of Fairy Tail!"

Wendy: "We ALL are!"

*Enters Erza, Gray, Lucy, Wendy, Happy, Charlie, Laxus, Mirajane, Elfman, Lisanna, Freed, Bixlow, Cana, Alzack, Bisca, Max, 'Mystogun', Gajeel, Panterlily, and Juvia*

Sting:

Rest of Sabertooth:

Natsu: "We've got one Guild War win under our belt - I don't mind going two for two!"

Erza: "Natsu!!"

Natsu: "...erk!"

Erza: "I understand how you feel, believe me...we ALL understand how you feel. But this...isn't the right way."

Natsu: "What!? You're telling me to let these jerks off the hook for what they did!?"

Lucy: "Please Natsu. Yukino didn't want to start a guild war over this. Besides..."

Gray: "Beating them down like this won't really prove anything."

Natsu: "BUT I'M STILL PISSED OFF!!!"

Laxus: "Calm down, Natsu. Actually, I'm glad I got to come along on this lil field trip." *looks at Sabertooth* "...I got to see just what Fairy Tail might have become had Gramps gave in to me back then during the Magnolia festival. I can't believe I'm saying this but - I hate it. Our guild shouldn't become like this."

Natsu: "...Laxus."

~*~

...and I better stop before I get too carried away...
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Old 2012-05-14, 21:09   Link #8252
ranchan13
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Natsu: "We've got one Guild War win under our belt - I don't mind going two for two!"

Erza: "Natsu!!"

Natsu: "...erk!"
I ROFLed so hard the sweet potato I was eating shot from my nose in streams. This was perfect
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Old 2012-05-14, 21:21   Link #8253
Randrak42
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Your Natsu seems a tad smarter than the original :P
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Old 2012-05-14, 21:25   Link #8254
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Your Natsu seems a tad smarter than the original :P
I think the fact that he's wasting his time entertaining Sting's arguments instead of punching him in the face is indicative of that.
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Old 2012-05-14, 21:26   Link #8255
Randrak42
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I think the fact that he's wasting his time entertaining Sting's arguments instead of punching him in the face is indicative of that.
My thoughts exactly!
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Old 2012-05-14, 22:07   Link #8256
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I wonder if it was less the defeat that resulted in Yukino's expulsion, and more the fact that she 'wagered' her life.
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Old 2012-05-14, 22:19   Link #8257
Tempest35
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Your Natsu seems a tad smarter than the original :P
...this is why I can't write out any fiction, I always have the characters be too OOC due to too much smarts... I can't imagine what I'd do to Ichigo and Naruto... -_-
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Old 2012-05-15, 01:02   Link #8258
Krono
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
I wonder if it was less the defeat that resulted in Yukino's expulsion, and more the fact that she 'wagered' her life.
No, it pretty much was the defeat.

Gemma's complaint was that she'd wagered her life, lost, and been pitied by the enemy. In other words, he's upset she didn't win and didn't die a result. If she'd killed Kagura (or presumably decisively defeated her but spared her life), or been killed herself, he would have found it an acceptable result.

Even if it had been an incredibly close battle that Kagura barely won and would be out of the tournament due to her wounds; as long as Kagura declined to deliver the killing blow, Gemma would find the result unacceptable as that would still be being pitied by the enemy.

So his complaint isn't with the wagering itself, but rather with outcome of the fight wagered on.
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Old 2012-05-15, 16:20   Link #8259
Randrak42
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The way I see it, one of three things will happen to Yukino:

- She will die during that whole portal opening or whatever thing and Lucy will get her keys;
- She will join Fairy Tail, live and keep the keys;
- She will have some moment later on where her life is in danger and is saved by Sabertooth, who then welcome her back to the guild, she either keeps the keys or gives them to Lucy.

Personally think that the third option is the most likely, provided that Genma leaves the guild along the way.
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Old 2012-05-16, 07:01   Link #8260
classic
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
The way I see it, one of three things will happen to Yukino:

- She will die during that whole portal opening or whatever thing and Lucy will get her keys;
- She will join Fairy Tail, live and keep the keys;
- She will have some moment later on where her life is in danger and is saved by Sabertooth, who then welcome her back to the guild, she either keeps the keys or gives them to Lucy.

Personally think that the third option is the most likely, provided that Genma leaves the guild along the way.
I think she will join Mermaid Heel.
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