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Old 2013-03-08, 15:13   Link #10821
kitten320
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The problem with Erza's new armor is that I don't remember it ever being hinted that something so strong even existed.

It is clearly superior to everything else so it should have a t least have some kind of hint till now instead of just getting it out of thin air.

How did Erza even get her hands on it in the first place?
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Old 2013-03-08, 15:39   Link #10822
saravis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
But this time, well I personally can't really find any good quality to associate with her putting on this literally "all powerful armor" that implies more or less "she has a crap ton of magic" (and little to nothing else) which begs the question "what the hell she was doing with all of it (origin activation nonsense considered) when two other characters were essentially getting KILLED."
This is really nothing new, anyone remember the Fairy Armor from the Edolas arc? It was supposed to be her best armor, but she's never used it since. I think rather than over-analyzing it, people should just accept, regardless of if you agree with it or not, that Ezra will likely introduce a new armor in a pivotal fight; that seems to be her theme.
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Old 2013-03-08, 15:58   Link #10823
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Her introducing a new armor is not the problem though.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
@felix: Calm down, dude, I was just a bit curious. And still a bit perplexed, so maybe you csn clarify: Erza pulling out previously unseen armor to do something amazing... good or bad?
Um. I'll have to go with bad.

Like I said earlier, the explanation of it requiring a lot of juice made it a little better then the blanket "armor time" of last week, but I feel a lot of doors closed when she put on the armor. While the current development gives (some of you) a nice payoff and I guess more so if you really hated Minerva's guts with passion, if she hadn't done that, and done just about anything else (within character of course) we could now be looking forward to reading some more heart to heart stuff with Erza and potentially got a much sweeter revenge battle to boot, in time. FT feeds on being one dimensional and characters being of one mind, but giving Erza a little side quest would have added some depth, with out detracting too much from the core of FT.

Well you never know, Mashima might surprise us and insert ST into FT, under the excuse of "we must belong to the strongest guild." That would make for some interesting stuff, given how all the other wild dogs of fairy tail (Laxus, Laxus henchmen, Gildartz, etc), have either gone docile, senile, or missing.

Oh and for the record, whats her name that got backstabed, also had kind of the same problem, where short term wow factor stepped on actual story. Given how there was very little story to her to begin though, her case is a lot more in the gray zone.
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Old 2013-03-08, 16:12   Link #10824
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Btw in end Gray and Juvia didn't actually pull of unison raid, did they?
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Old 2013-03-08, 16:17   Link #10825
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Sting giving up makes sense. He didn't want a cheap victory. Even if he'd beaten all of them easily, Fairy Tail had already won the crowd over. He'd simply look like a coward, who cheated even if he technically won. In a sense he'd already lost.

It's like the Pixar film Cars. In the final race the "Villain" racer (who only cares about winning at any cost for glory to himself), forces the old racer (who was on his last race regardless) to crash and injure himself, codemning his career to go out on a whimper. The hero car Lightning McQueen, who'd spent the whole film learning that winning wasn't all there was to it, opts to help the old car finish the race rather than try to beat the villain car at first place. As a result the villain wins the race, but since he looked like such a cheap jackass the crowd hates him, the press bashes him, and the sponsors don't give him a deal even though he technically won. Meanwhile Lightning comes in third since he helped the old car get second, but he becomes famous and beloved for his act of sportsmanship, gets the sponsor deal even though he wasn't the best, and is remembered for it.

So really, Fairy Tail had already shown themselves to be the best guild, with their good sportsmanship, impressive displays of skill, and playing to the crowd. Even if Sting gave Sabertooth the win, nobody would really care, and would still be talking about Fairy Tail.
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:43   Link #10826
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Btw in end Gray and Juvia didn't actually pull of unison raid, did they?
No, sadly. Just a combined attack.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:13   Link #10827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
The problem with Erza's new armor is that I don't remember it ever being hinted that something so strong even existed.

It is clearly superior to everything else so it should have a t least have some kind of hint till now instead of just getting it out of thin air.

How did Erza even get her hands on it in the first place?
All questions that could be asked of any of her armor. And yet, I don't think any of us have problems with those. But that's the thing about secret weapons; they tend to be secret until used. However, Gildartz's magic allows him to break apart enemy spells, so we already have it established that it is possible. Erza duplicating the effect with an armor isn't so farfetched, anymore than duplicating Laxus's lightning with her Lightning Empress armor.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Her introducing a new armor is not the problem though.

Um. I'll have to go with bad.

Like I said earlier, the explanation of it requiring a lot of juice made it a little better then the blanket "armor time" of last week, but I feel a lot of doors closed when she put on the armor. While the current development gives (some of you) a nice payoff and I guess more so if you really hated Minerva's guts with passion, if she hadn't done that, and done just about anything else (within character of course) we could now be looking forward to reading some more heart to heart stuff with Erza and potentially got a much sweeter revenge battle to boot, in time. FT feeds on being one dimensional and characters being of one mind, but giving Erza a little side quest would have added some depth, with out detracting too much from the core of FT.
So your issue is not really the armor at all. You have no problems with her having the armor. You just would have preferred something else, which is a fair point, but... what would you have preferred?

And keep in mind, Erza is probably one of the characters with the most dimensions to her. Natsu is one of the more one dimensional characters, but Erza has her whole Heaven's Tower backstory and her ongoing, complex relationship with Jellal, which has been developed really well. And that still continues into the present with Kagura and Milliana, which we still don't know how it will be resolved. I doubt Kagura and Milli will suddenly be buddy-buddy with Jellal, even if they start to give Erza some benefit of the doubt, which will strain Erza and Milli's friendship.

But out of all the characters, Erza is one of the most complex and developed. I don't see how Minerva, as a typical bad girl, would have added much. Once she beat the crap out of Lucy, threatened Happy, and backstabbed Kagura, she pretty much cemented herself in bad guy territory. And there is still the possibility of Minerva popping up down the road as a bad guy and clashing with Erza again, possibly after having acquired some new advantage or magic. But I didn't sense any "heart to heart" that she could have had with Erza.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:14   Link #10828
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EDIT: Damn it, Kaijo...! XD

... I have to say, I also feel a bit disgruntled about the entire 'new armor' affair. It was just waaay too convienent for such an armor to be in her hammerspace for that long. I mean, she couldn't use it unless she had a certain amount of magical power to begin with so she couldn't/shouldn't have had it up until Tenrojima. Afterward, yeah, I can see that she could have gotten it, but for something like that, it deserves a filler episode or something... If she had picked it up during/immediately after the Zentopia incident, I would have been all smiles - lines are connected, all is right in the world. Even something simple as her eluding that she had new armors would have sufficed.

~*~
After Pandimonium:

Erza: *sigh* After all, I couldn't bring that one out...

Gray: Huh? Which one?

Erza: A new armor that I picked up after the Zentopia incident, but the requirements are ... a bit much, even for me.

Gray: You mean you got more!?

~*~

Something like that would have made the complete left-field appearance of Nakagami. Even though he had Levi read off something in a random book, the complete hax-like power of the armor just eclipses EVERYTHING she has and there was nothing hinted at this. Something this big needs a hint. I mean, Nakagami is said to allow it's wearer to bend the physics of magic... This is armor that you'd level grind up to Lv 99 for.

What I am disgruntled about in regards to this is the nature of the reveal of the new armor, not so much that she has it. With this, she can probably take on Laxus and Gildartz, not at the same time mind you, but this does place her firmly back at their tier level. Only way I see Natsu getting up to this level is to learn how to eat everything and anything and still convert it to his flame magic. Or just learn to eat Etherion without the side-effects....
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:16   Link #10829
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She couldn't use it until she had her second origin activated, which only happened right before the tournament. She didn't have enough magic to use it before, and had no need to use it until she was pushed to the wall by Minerva's machinations.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:28   Link #10830
kitten320
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I completely agree with Tempest here.

All armor we have seen till now was simply an armor with some benefits while this one is clearly a pretty hex one that is even mentioned in books. It also mentions that others tried it on. If they did, then why don't they have it in their collection and wait until they reach enough power? How come it is Erza? Where did she find such rare and strong armor to begin with?

It is not her usual stuff, it is something of a completely new level that you won't find lying on a road.
At least when Natsu learns some new techniques like lighting/fire dragon breath, there is some input on how he got that unique power instead of pulling it out of thin air.

Yes he has a lot of different techniques which background we don't know and have no need for. But if Natsu suddenly started to shoot Lighting out of thin air I'm pretty sure it would have raised a lot of complaints at the time.


And to be honest, Erza's powers are the least explained. Going by OVA she stores all her armor in an actual room. As a child she obviously didn't have any so how exactly did she get a hold of it all?
Several chapters dedicated to it really wouldn't hurt and would add more depth. This armor was a perfect opportunity!
Mashima could at least give some foreshadowing and maybe a tiny flashback or something along those lines. Then this armor would not feel so weird.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:46   Link #10831
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And I want an explanation on her Heaven's Wheel armor. We have no idea where it comes from, but it has pretty hax power to be able to shoot so many swords at once. And her adamantine armor? Again, came from nowhere, no explanation, and it was perfectly able to block the Jupiter Beam.

Actually, where do Natsu's techniques come from? I mean, he just makes up several in the middle of a fight with no explanation. Grey, too, for that matter. Just makes up spells and new ice formations with no explanation. His unlimited ice works? Seriously? And how did Gildartz get so powerful? No explanation for that level of power. He just has it, leaving us wondering how he got that strong. Completely ruins the entire series, when Mashima doesn't explain these details. I'd much rather he focus on those, then on moving the plot forward!
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:48   Link #10832
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Excuse me while I'll talk to a brick wall, it clearly will understand me faster.

And your example is full of holes.
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Old 2013-03-08, 20:23   Link #10833
felix
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what would you have preferred?
That's not a question I think about. I did go into some detail on what I like in the FT story earlier though.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And keep in mind, Erza is probably one of the characters with the most dimensions to her. Natsu is one of the more one dimensional characters, but Erza has her whole Heaven's Tower backstory and her ongoing, complex relationship with Jellal, which has been developed really well.
The backstory isn't really making her multidimentional; I guess it depends on your definition. To me a backstory doesn't do anything but give context to her actions, it's not like she's doing anything related to the events in the backstory, there's no conflict of interest, it's pretty clear FT duty 24/7. Agree on Jelly, though I wouldn't call it complex, it's more like cheezy and pretentious (don't get me wrong I do find it entertaining that way; but maybe because I like Jelly's character).

By my definition a character is "more then one dimensional" if in every action there are very different clear (to the character and the audience) options the character has to consider, because of his/her circumstances; to be perfectly clear hidden/secret/surprise/obscure options do not count, you can't consider a characters "past" by what you know now were his choices, it has to be always the knowledge in the present of the writing. So for example say you have a character that's a spy for another country, but ends up as the general of the country he is suppose to spy on, that character always has to choose between responsibility, the trust placed upon them (by "the enemy"), the duty to his compatriots, his new found friends, the morality of his actions, and that goes with out saying, there are countless problems in even basic situations (such as another character looking funny at him/her) that adds tension. The character is multidimensional in the sense that there is no ambiguity in the choices involved, it's not like we don't know what he's suppose to do as a spy, or what he would do if decided to become a double agent, but even so we don't know what the character will choose. Of course it can be a lot more subtle then that, if you say just take childhood friendship vs duty or honor vs morality; depends on the topic of the work in question.

Having a really complex backstory, some form of childhood or adulthood stigma, or simply being in what appears as a complex context (involved with X, Y, Z) but that provides no tantalizing choice in the characters "present" actions (Erza only had the choice to keep quiet about Jelly for example) is not really adding any dimension to a character, IMHO anyway. It's simply fluff you tack on because it's nice to have and helps the character click with the audience.

So in that sense, Erza has some added dimension from her relationship with Jelly and Millana (and I do mean the shared relationship of all three together), but overall she's pretty one dimensional since just about any action she takes is either dictated by her complete faith in her guild or her complete faith in nakama power.

For the record, there's nothing wrong with having one dimensional characters, they are simply interesting in their own way, which is different to what makes multidimentional characters interesting and fun. I do think having solely one dimensional characters is bound to hurt the writing sooner or later though (such as this armor problem).

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And that still continues into the present with Kagura and Milliana, which we still don't know how it will be resolved. I doubt Kagura and Milli will suddenly be buddy-buddy with Jellal, even if they start to give Erza some benefit of the doubt, which will strain Erza and Milli's friendship.
Uhm, I don't really see Erza thinking of any of them outside of scenes with them, where it's to be expected (though she barely does it in those too).

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But out of all the characters, Erza is one of the most complex and developed. I don't see how Minerva, as a typical bad girl, would have added much. Once she beat the crap out of Lucy, threatened Happy, and backstabbed Kagura, she pretty much cemented herself in bad guy territory. And there is still the possibility of Minerva popping up down the road as a bad guy and clashing with Erza again, possibly after having acquired some new advantage or magic. But I didn't sense any "heart to heart" that she could have had with Erza.
Minerva's choice is kind of nonsensical, so where the author is going with her is anyone's guess. She has writing potential, but I think so far Mashima wrote her into the corner of soon-to-be-forgotten-villains. And I meant Erza and the audience, not Erza and Minerva, when I said "heart to heart time."
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Old 2013-03-08, 20:27   Link #10834
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I'm with Kaijo. This is no different from her Purgatory or Armadura Fairy "ultimate" armors, neither of which needed justification. Just like all her other stuff, she could've quested for it, or bought it with her S-class job earnings, or whatever. She could've acquired it 7-10 years ago, and just kept it in storage since she didn't have the juice for it. Point is, the exact details aren't important. She's an S-class armor mage who collects this stuff for a living and hobby. Of course this would end up in her inventory.
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Old 2013-03-08, 20:28   Link #10835
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felix, I do understand what you're saying. I just think you're expecting a bit much from a shonen manga, and from these shonen characters. It's like arguing why the old 80's GI Joe characters don't have more dimensions to them; they aren't meant to (watch a few old GI Joe cartoons, if you haven't before or lately).

Would I like more dimensions, such as you describe? Sure. I just recognize that it most likely isn't going to happen. I've set my expectations based on what kind of material I am reading. If I get more than that, great! I am surprised and happy. If I don't, I realize I got what I expected. Sometimes, I wonder if people are setting up their expectations higher than they should, but that's for each person to decide on their own.
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Old 2013-03-08, 20:33   Link #10836
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Not again you two, or three or more. We're not gonna let it get out of hand this time. *Mavis glare*

This is pretty much some people's reaction when Natsu used the Lightning Flame Dragon move on Max during their little spar after he had eaten Laxus's lightning. People got over that one and I'm sure that I'll get over this one once Mashima explains himself (to a degree). He doesn't have to explain it further than, 'Erza needed a new armor so I gave it to her', but it's the principle behind it...

I would like to know where she got this Infinity +1 Armor from but I'm not going to hold my breath. It's going to be waved by most people as a 'That's Erza for ya' thing anyway.

With that said, the other lvl armors that she has seem to be 'craftable'. She probably had to get some rare elements for some of them (Adamanatine, etc) but they usually have a simple purpose designed for them. And for armor like hers, they are also embuned with her own magic as to make them stronger than most other armors. Although, to have them reforged when they break - must cost a small fortune.

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I'm with Kaijo. This is no different from her Purgatory or Armadura Fairy "ultimate" armors, neither of which needed justification. Just like all her other stuff, she could've quested for it, or bought it with her S-class job earnings, or whatever. She could've acquired it 7-10 years ago, and just kept it in storage since she didn't have the juice for it. Point is, the exact details aren't important. She's an S-class armor mage who collects this stuff for a living and hobby. Of course this would end up in her inventory.
.... *bursts out laughing* I'm not laughing at you, MechR, just the situation that popped into my head when I read that. Seeing this old guy that builds and restores old classic vehicles (the old Chevys, Cadillacs, Fords, etc). Then you see out in his garage and find one of those early mechanized tanks that he restored to fully operational status, cannon and everything.
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Old 2013-03-08, 20:40   Link #10837
felix
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felix, I do understand what you're saying. I just think you're expecting a bit much from a shonen manga, and from these shonen characters. It's like arguing why the old 80's GI Joe characters don't have more dimensions to them; they aren't meant to (watch a few old GI Joe cartoons, if you haven't before or lately).

Would I like more dimensions, such as you describe? Sure. I just recognize that it most likely isn't going to happen. I've set my expectations based on what kind of material I am reading. If I get more than that, great! I am surprised and happy. If I don't, I realize I got what I expected. Sometimes, I wonder if people are setting up their expectations higher than they should, but that's for each person to decide on their own.
Uhm. Don't care. My expectations are an integral part of my opinion and my enjoyment. Having lower expectations is simply being dishonest with myself. If at any point I feel disappointing enough to drop it, I'll drop it. I don't have much time, and have plenty of things I can be doing at any given time, so no reason for me to warp my state of mind in such a way to guarantee me reading it. The whole idea is so silly.
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Old 2013-03-08, 21:17   Link #10838
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Maybe my writing expectations were lowered by how she beat Kagura, but I'm just happy her comeback has an actual explanation this time. With Minerva's built-up karma, I never doubted Erza would win; the only question was how (or if) Mashima would make it reasonable in her battered state. "Use of smoke to approach + secretly-held-back Second Origin + new ultimate armor" is frankly better than I expected/feared.
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Old 2013-03-08, 21:38   Link #10839
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MechR...just curious, but did you feel that there was a fight that Erza participated in that didn't have an explanation as o why she won, or was that someone else's fight?

And I wonder what Mavis was looking at off panel... didn't look good...
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Old 2013-03-08, 22:24   Link #10840
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MechR...just curious, but did you feel that there was a fight that Erza participated in that didn't have an explanation as o why she won, or was that someone else's fight?
How did she land that last hit on Kagura when even her speed armor couldn't do it? (Assuming there wasn't something else weird going on in the latter case, like some sort of damage-transfer spell.)

At least with Ikaruga, she didn't have the speed armor to use yet (presumably).

Quote:
And I wonder what Mavis was looking at off panel... didn't look good...
Probably just wondering what's taking Team Rescue Lucy so long.
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